It means adequately and correctly interpreted Scripture. This involves not just correct interpretation of the original language, but also harmonizing it with other parts of scripture so that you take the word of God as a whole, not interpret things in isolation and out of context. It must involve intellectual honesty.Waco1947 said:what is rightly divided word mean? I am unfamiliar with that phraseBusyTarpDuster2017 said:Everyone here thinks their interpretation is the right one (especially you) and tries to steer others towards their direction.Waco1947 said:
It isn't good if someone's faith is "fed" if their faith is distorted, it should be steered into the right direction"
It appears that you are the sole arbiter of "distorted faith" and you seem to know the "right direction"
From what I gather your "interpretation' of scripture is the only right one.
What is distorted faith?
What is right direction?
We can't all be right, if we differ. That's why it's important we we discuss/debate them. Unfortunately, people here seem to only want to view that as "anger", "mean spirited debate", and "confrontational".
Distorted faith is faith that is centered on unbiblical thinking or principles. For example, a faith on a God and Jesus who aren't supernatural.
The right direction is in line with the rightly divided word of God, the bible. But what is the rightly divided word? That's what we can discuss/debate.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Page 19 of this thread:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.curtpenn said:90sBear said:I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."
Thank you.
/debate
Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.
If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.
I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.
Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.
Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?
I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.
I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.
Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?
If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.
Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.
I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.
You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.
The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.
As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.
I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.
Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"We "evil", "Fundy Taliban" Christian types believe in obeying God and putting our eternal salvation and entrusting our soul in Jesus' hands......if that drives away people who want to put their salvation and entrust their soul in the hands of someone other than God, then so be it."
curtpenn said:
"Do you even hear yourself? The Pharisees would be proud."
No true Christian would ever consider it pharisaical to believe that we must put our salvation in the hands of NO ONE other than Jesus/God, and to believe that anyone who does otherwise should not be part of the Church. This should not even need explaining.
So much for this being a "stupid assertion". It's so easy to mock what I'm saying as untrue twaddle, not so easy to actually prove it wrong.
If what I'm saying in this thread isn't the truth, then why are you only able to insult me instead of make an argument against it?
Just more self serving drivel composed of straw man and no-true-Scotsman nonsense that you confuse for facts. Your head is so far up your ass you can't see it. Thanks for playing.
Not only do you not understand what Christianity is (as evidenced above) you don't understand what "straw man" and "no true Scotsman" fallacies are.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Page 19 of this thread:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.curtpenn said:90sBear said:I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."
Thank you.
/debate
Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.
If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.
I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.
Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.
Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?
I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.
I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.
Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?
If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.
Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.
I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.
You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.
The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.
As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.
I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.
Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"We "evil", "Fundy Taliban" Christian types believe in obeying God and putting our eternal salvation and entrusting our soul in Jesus' hands......if that drives away people who want to put their salvation and entrust their soul in the hands of someone other than God, then so be it."
curtpenn said:
"Do you even hear yourself? The Pharisees would be proud."
No true Christian would ever consider it pharisaical to believe that we must put our salvation in the hands of NO ONE other than Jesus/God, and to believe that anyone who does otherwise should not be part of the Church. This should not even need explaining.
So much for this being a "stupid assertion". It's so easy to mock what I'm saying as untrue twaddle, not so easy to actually prove it wrong.
If what I'm saying in this thread isn't the truth, then why are you only able to insult me instead of make an argument against it?
Just more self serving drivel composed of straw man and no-true-Scotsman nonsense that you confuse for facts. Your head is so far up your ass you can't see it. Thanks for playing.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Not only do you not understand what Christianity is (as evidenced above) you don't understand what "straw man" and "no true Scotsman" fallacies are.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Page 19 of this thread:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.curtpenn said:90sBear said:I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."
Thank you.
/debate
Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.
If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.
I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.
Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.
Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?
I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.
I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.
Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?
If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.
Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.
I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.
You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.
The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.
As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.
I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.
Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"We "evil", "Fundy Taliban" Christian types believe in obeying God and putting our eternal salvation and entrusting our soul in Jesus' hands......if that drives away people who want to put their salvation and entrust their soul in the hands of someone other than God, then so be it."
curtpenn said:
"Do you even hear yourself? The Pharisees would be proud."
No true Christian would ever consider it pharisaical to believe that we must put our salvation in the hands of NO ONE other than Jesus/God, and to believe that anyone who does otherwise should not be part of the Church. This should not even need explaining.
So much for this being a "stupid assertion". It's so easy to mock what I'm saying as untrue twaddle, not so easy to actually prove it wrong.
If what I'm saying in this thread isn't the truth, then why are you only able to insult me instead of make an argument against it?
Just more self serving drivel composed of straw man and no-true-Scotsman nonsense that you confuse for facts. Your head is so far up your ass you can't see it. Thanks for playing.
Just more stupid assertions from you. Give yourself a pat on the back for predictability. Well done.
Question: What type of Church did you go to today?
I went to a Non Denominational Church today.
I went to a Non Denominational Church today.
Go ahead and explain how those are straw man and no true scotsman fallacies, then.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Not only do you not understand what Christianity is (as evidenced above) you don't understand what "straw man" and "no true Scotsman" fallacies are.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Page 19 of this thread:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.curtpenn said:90sBear said:I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."
Thank you.
/debate
Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.
If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.
I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.
Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.
Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?
I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.
I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.
Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?
If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.
Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.
I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.
You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.
The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.
As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.
I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.
Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"We "evil", "Fundy Taliban" Christian types believe in obeying God and putting our eternal salvation and entrusting our soul in Jesus' hands......if that drives away people who want to put their salvation and entrust their soul in the hands of someone other than God, then so be it."
curtpenn said:
"Do you even hear yourself? The Pharisees would be proud."
No true Christian would ever consider it pharisaical to believe that we must put our salvation in the hands of NO ONE other than Jesus/God, and to believe that anyone who does otherwise should not be part of the Church. This should not even need explaining.
So much for this being a "stupid assertion". It's so easy to mock what I'm saying as untrue twaddle, not so easy to actually prove it wrong.
If what I'm saying in this thread isn't the truth, then why are you only able to insult me instead of make an argument against it?
Just more self serving drivel composed of straw man and no-true-Scotsman nonsense that you confuse for facts. Your head is so far up your ass you can't see it. Thanks for playing.
Just more stupid assertions from you. Give yourself a pat on the back for predictability. Well done.
Show yourself even more.
Page 38:curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Would you like me to point you to where these exactly occurred in this thread?curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:You called me a Pharisee because I believe that Christians should put their salvation in Jesus' hands, not Mary's.curtpenn said:90sBear said:I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."
Thank you.
/debate
Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.
If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.
I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.
Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.
Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?
I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.
I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.
Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?
If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.
Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.
I appreciate your comments here. FWIW, started experiencing some non-life threatening but persistently painful health issues about 5 months ago that led me to disconnect from this conversation as it was clear our Pharisee-in-Residence wasn't worth the aggravation of listening to over against many other activities that have been more productive and satisfying for me. Pretty sure if you take a few months off you will be able to come right back here and find little has changed.
You also didn't even know what the bible said about a topic that you argued hard against me about. You didn't even read the chapter in John we were discussing.
The written record is all there. Sorry, I'm really not bothered that my Christian views are being insulted by someone who doesn't even know Christianity.
As ever, you stack one stupid assertion on top of another and pile on more idiocracy after that for good measure just in case there was any doubt. Plus ca change… At least you're reliable for a chuckle. Thanks.
I'll be glad to, for you and whoever starred your comment.
Knock yourself out, big boy. You might as well continue to leave your slimy trail of self centered self righteous twaddle that you confuse for "truth" when we all know you struggle to recognize that which is merely your opinion. Please, amaze me with your extraordinary powers of discernment.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"And if the bread was literally his body, then according to his literal words, if you eat that bread, you have eternal life."
curtpenn said:
"Jesus did not say if you eat my body you will have eternal life, so this assertion is wrong from its beginning......Study more."
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:54). Study the bible more."
You couldn't have been more wrong, yet you were so arrogantly sure about it. What's worse is that you didn't even bother yourself to READ the passage in the bible that we were talking about.
Another "stupid assertion" that is so stupid, that you failed to disprove it apparently.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This is unbiblical. The bible teaches that God wants us to have assurance and know we are saved. 1 John 5:13:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
No argument about the truth of that verse. However to quote it in isolation and try to apply it to anyone and everyone who prays the sinners prayer is a misapplication of it. 1st John 5 spends a good bit of the chapter preceding it explaining who the "we" are...
"2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God."
That's almost getting to the book of James territory there.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. Calling it a "process" also means that one can never have assurance that they are saved, because their salvation isn't "completed". You could die today, and not be saved, even though you believe and trust in Jesus for your salvation.
If you die today, you've reached the finish line of your race. But if you don't die today, you never know what tomorrow holds.
Quote:
Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?
In some ways, I think we are using different words to try and explain the same thing. You call salvation an event, which necessitates calling those who walk away people who were never saved to begin with. I call it a process, "I was saved yesterday, I am being saved today, I will be saved tomorrow." In Baptist terms that probably translates into "I was justified yesterday, I am being sanctified today, and I will be [something - dont want to insert the wrong word] tomorrow."
Quote:
Someone who claims they are saved, but chooses to be a fruitless tree, wasn't really saved. This isn't about what one claims, it's about what really is.
The answer to your question is 2) or 3). It's the state of their faith that determines that, not their works. They are the rocky soil and soil among thorns in the parable of the sower (Luke 8).
So we are saying the same thing: the fruitless tree is not saved, and that status is confirmed by the lack of fruit as evidencing a lack of faith.
Quote:
If the thief on the cross and the house of Cornelius did nothing except believe and trust Jesus in their heart, would they still have been saved?
The thief on the cross, of course. It's not really possible to do anything for Christ in this world when you are actively engaged in the process of leaving it.
As for Cornelius, that probably proves my point as the scripture describes him as "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway" and "And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house," in Acts 10. Lots of evidence there.
xfrodobagginsx said:
Question: What type of Church did you go to today?
I went to a Non Denominational Church today.
Well?
Just curious Frodo, but what are your qualifications to judge someone by what church they attend, and how is that germane to this discussion?xfrodobagginsx said:xfrodobagginsx said:
Question: What type of Church did you go to today?
I went to a Non Denominational Church today.
Well?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
You must be forgetting why I quoted that verse. You were arguing against assurance. You said "For any living man to declare that he is absolutely, unconditionally saved in this life is quite presumptuous as no man knows the future." The verse is showing that it is NOT presumptuous, and that it is God's will that we know we are saved and can thus can have assurance. In "isolation" this verse still shows that what you are incorrect. You say you agree with the truth of this verse. Does that mean you acknowledge that you were wrong about assurance?Realitybites said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
This is unbiblical. The bible teaches that God wants us to have assurance and know we are saved. 1 John 5:13:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
No argument about the truth of that verse. However to quote it in isolation and try to apply it to anyone and everyone who prays the sinners prayer is a misapplication of it. 1st John 5 spends a good bit of the chapter preceding it explaining who the "we" are...
"2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God."
That's almost getting to the book of James territory there.
You're also arguing a straw man - referring to this verse was not my attempt to apply the assurance of salvation to "anyone and everyone who prays the sinners prayer". Salvation is by the finished work of Jesus and our true faith in him, not just by reciting certain words in a prayer. People with true faith are the "we" in that verse. True faith WILL lead to someone loving God and wanting to obey Him whenever they are able. But it's not their obedience that gives them salvation, it's their faith.
Your citation of the verse "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." says it quite clearly.
"If you die today, you've reached the finish line of your race. But if you don't die today, you never know what tomorrow holds." - But the question is, where were you in that "process" when you finished the race? If faith is not enough for salvation, but there must be a process in addition to it, you can't be assured that if and when you die, you successfully completed the process to salvation. You can never have assurance.Realitybites said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
. Calling it a "process" also means that one can never have assurance that they are saved, because their salvation isn't "completed". You could die today, and not be saved, even though you believe and trust in Jesus for your salvation.
If you die today, you've reached the finish line of your race. But if you don't die today, you never know what tomorrow holds.Quote:
Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?
In some ways, I think we are using different words to try and explain the same thing. You call salvation an event, which necessitates calling those who walk away people who were never saved to begin with. I call it a process, "I was saved yesterday, I am being saved today, I will be saved tomorrow." In Baptist terms that probably translates into "I was justified yesterday, I am being sanctified today, and I will be [something - dont want to insert the wrong word] tomorrow."Quote:
Someone who claims they are saved, but chooses to be a fruitless tree, wasn't really saved. This isn't about what one claims, it's about what really is.
The answer to your question is 2) or 3). It's the state of their faith that determines that, not their works. They are the rocky soil and soil among thorns in the parable of the sower (Luke 8).
So we are saying the same thing: the fruitless tree is not saved, and that status is confirmed by the lack of fruit as evidencing a lack of faith.Quote:
If the thief on the cross and the house of Cornelius did nothing except believe and trust Jesus in their heart, would they still have been saved?
The thief on the cross, of course. It's not really possible to do anything for Christ in this world when you are actively engaged in the process of leaving it.
As for Cornelius, that probably proves my point as the scripture describes him as "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway" and "And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house," in Acts 10. Lots of evidence there.
I am not calling salvation an "event". I am saying it is a state of being.Quote:Quote:
Is this what you believe? Could you answer my question above more directly? Can we either lose our salvation, or not be "completed" in our salvation if we do not produce works?
In some ways, I think we are using different words to try and explain the same thing. You call salvation an event, which necessitates calling those who walk away people who were never saved to begin with. I call it a process, "I was saved yesterday, I am being saved today, I will be saved tomorrow." In Baptist terms that probably translates into "I was justified yesterday, I am being sanctified today, and I will be [something - dont want to insert the wrong word] tomorrow."
It's a state of your being that is dependent on your faith in the finished work of Jesus. Your state of being can change if your faith changes. The question is, though, if it's even possible for someone with true faith to change their faith away from saving faith. I think the bible shows that it isn't, because the Holy Spirit seals them (Ephesians 1:13). It's also biblical to say they never had true faith to begin with - "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (John 2:19)
If by "process" you mean justification and sanctification, then using the word "process" to describe salvation is wrong. Because sanctification happens after one comes to true faith in Jesus, and not all are sanctified to the same degree. You'd have to delineate at which point along the sanctification process where salvation is achieved, which would be suggesting that true faith in Jesus was not enough, that it's dependent on how much "fruit" you have. That's why I'm asking you the question "can we lose our salvation (or not be saved) if we don't produce works?" I don't think I'm getting a clear answer, so I ask it again, and ask for a more direct answer.
See, that's the difference. You're addressing the "confirmation". What I'm talking about is what saves - is it true faith, or the confirmation of it? Remember that some with true faith may not have much evident fruit depending where they are in the sanctification "process" (sanctification is not salvivic), and some who do show fruit may not even have true faith at all (Matthew 7:22-23). We shouldn't trust our fruit. I hate to call out someone specifically, but there's a poster here who doesn't even believe Jesus physically rose from the dead, along with the fact that God isn't supernatural or has supernatural power. Yet, at least he claims, he does good deeds like build homes for the homeless and other things, and he promotes "love". He even acts more respectful and polite in this forum than many of us Christians, admittedly. But would his "fruit" really be confirmation of a true faith in Jesus?Realitybites said:Quote:
Someone who claims they are saved, but chooses to be a fruitless tree, wasn't really saved. This isn't about what one claims, it's about what really is.
The answer to your question is 2) or 3). It's the state of their faith that determines that, not their works. They are the rocky soil and soil among thorns in the parable of the sower (Luke 8).
So we are saying the same thing: the fruitless tree is not saved, and that status is confirmed by the lack of fruit as evidencing a lack of faith.
Well, if the thief had enough breath to talk to Jesus, he could have used his last dying moments to evangelize to the crowd mocking him, couldn't he?Realitybites said:Quote:
If the thief on the cross and the house of Cornelius did nothing except believe and trust Jesus in their heart, would they still have been saved?
The thief on the cross, of course. It's not really possible to do anything for Christ in this world when you are actively engaged in the process of leaving it.
As for Cornelius, that probably proves my point as the scripture describes him as "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway" and "And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house," in Acts 10. Lots of evidence there.
You seem to be suggesting that works are required for salvation, unless in your specific case it isn't possible. Would that be and accurate statement about your belief?
Here's the question about the house of Cornelius though - suppose after all that fasting and praying, and God answering his prayers by sending Peter so that they could hear the gospel, it ends up that Cornelius and his house did NOT believe. Instead, they send Peter away, yet they continue to pray and fast religiously. Would they be saved? Now suppose they didn't do ANYTHING at all, but Peter comes to them and tells them the gospel, and they believe. Would they be saved? According to your beliefs about salvation, how would you answer these?
When someone wants to do all the talking, you may be sure they are not doing much learning.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
...says the guy who's posted more than 500 times in this thread.Oldbear83 said:
When someone wants to do all the talking, you may be sure they are not doing much learning.
But you may notice, my posts here are both in context and in response to posts or salient issues.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:...says the guy who's posted more than 500 times in this thread.Oldbear83 said:
When someone wants to do all the talking, you may be sure they are not doing much learning.
And I have bothered to post relevant scripture.
You have reached the point where you are posting back-to-back-to-back posts BusyTarpDuster, as if you feel compelled to argue with almost everyone else.
There are some good insights here. But you have to seriously pay attention to someone else's posts to notice.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Quote:
Here's the question about the house of Cornelius though - suppose after all that fasting and praying, and God answering his prayers by sending Peter so that they could hear the gospel, it ends up that Cornelius and his house did NOT believe. Instead, they send Peter away, yet they continue to pray and fast religiously. Would they be saved? Now suppose they didn't do ANYTHING at all, but Peter comes to them and tells them the gospel, and they believe. Would they be saved? According to your beliefs about salvation, how would you answer these?
If they sent Peter away (assuming that they didn't become followers of Christ at some later point in their lives), they would be damned because John 14:6. That's pretty a pretty clear cut issue.
If they claimed to have believed Peter and yet did absolutely nothing at all, they would likely also be damned because Matthew 25:30. I say likely, because as humans we have imperfect knowledge about what others do or do not do. But if their response to Peter was, "This is great! All I have to do is repeat this incantation and I'm off the hook for fasting, almsgiving, and all that?" Toast. Burnt toast. Unfortunately, that is far too often the way that altar call evangelism works itself out in real life, a Jesus shahada that creates people with a false assurance of salvation without any desire or willingness to become disciples of the Lord.
Faith is required for salvation. Works - for those who can - are a litmus test for genuine faith. Salvation is by grace, through faith, evidenced by works. This was a baseline understanding of the Christian faith for the first thousand years of the church, until the schism and Roman Catholicism claimed an institutional right to forgive sins in exchange for works and Martin Luther (and the rest of the reformers) reacted to the extreme against that.
If you bothered to read mine, then you'd see that mine are also in context and in response to posts or salient issues. And I also have bothered to post relevant scripture. You have such a complete lack of awareness, it's scary.Oldbear83 said:But you may notice, my posts here are both in context and in response to posts or salient issues.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:...says the guy who's posted more than 500 times in this thread.Oldbear83 said:
When someone wants to do all the talking, you may be sure they are not doing much learning.
And I have bothered to post relevant scripture.
You have reached the point where you are posting back-to-back-to-back posts BusyTarpDuster, as if you feel compelled to argue with almost everyone else.
There are some good insights here. But you have to seriously pay attention to someone else's posts to notice.
I posted back to back posts because I wanted to respond to someone's points individually, instead of writing a huge long post. Again, if you had bothered to read them, you would have seen it.
Can you refute anything I'm saying, or are you just here to attack the messenger, not the message?
I agree. What am I saying that makes you think otherwise?Realitybites said:Quote:
Here's the question about the house of Cornelius though - suppose after all that fasting and praying, and God answering his prayers by sending Peter so that they could hear the gospel, it ends up that Cornelius and his house did NOT believe. Instead, they send Peter away, yet they continue to pray and fast religiously. Would they be saved? Now suppose they didn't do ANYTHING at all, but Peter comes to them and tells them the gospel, and they believe. Would they be saved? According to your beliefs about salvation, how would you answer these?
If they sent Peter away (assuming that they didn't become followers of Christ at some later point in their lives), they would be damned because John 14:6. That's pretty a pretty clear cut issue.
If they claimed to have believed Peter and yet did absolutely nothing at all, they would likely also be damned because Matthew 25:30. I say likely, because as humans we have imperfect knowledge about what others do or do not do. But if their response to Peter was, "This is great! All I have to do is repeat this incantation and I'm off the hook for fasting, almsgiving, and all that?" Toast. Burnt toast. Unfortunately, that is far too often the way that altar call evangelism works itself out in real life, a Jesus shahada that creates people with a false assurance of salvation without any desire or willingness to become disciples of the Lord.
Faith is required for salvation. Works - for those who can - are a litmus test for genuine faith. Salvation is by grace, through faith, evidenced by works. This was a baseline understanding of the Christian faith for the first thousand years of the church, until the schism and Roman Catholicism claimed an institutional right to forgive sins in exchange for works and Martin Luther (and the rest of the reformers) reacted to the extreme against that.
Mister, all you are doing is going after me.
Care to advance the discussion?
For my part, I like the point about this being a process. Jesus did not pop in, deliver His message then pop out. He lived the life, and reinforced the Gospel with actions.
Seems plain to me we are meant to do likewise, if we truly wish to follow Him.
Care to advance the discussion?
For my part, I like the point about this being a process. Jesus did not pop in, deliver His message then pop out. He lived the life, and reinforced the Gospel with actions.
Seems plain to me we are meant to do likewise, if we truly wish to follow Him.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Wow. You have such poor self awareness it's unbelievable. You go after others, and claim they're going after you. You say we aren't advancing the discussion, but everytime someone tries to advance it by asking questions, you don't answer them and run away. You consistently project what YOU are doing onto the other guy. Then you blame the other guy for hurting this thread for doing the things that you are doing.I honestly think there is something wrong with your spirit.Oldbear83 said:
Mister, all you are doing is going after me.
Care to advance the discussion?
For my part, I like the point about this being a process. Jesus did not pop in, deliver His message then pop out. He lived the life, and reinforced the Gospel with actions.
Seems plain to me we are meant to do likewise, if we truly wish to follow Him.
Of course we are to do as Jesus did. Who's arguing that we aren't? But the question is, are you saved based on whether you're able to do as Jesus did, or do you lose your salvation if you fail? If you believe so, then you are adding your performance onto the completed work of Jesus, are you not? This is the question, as well as others similar to it, that you simply refuse to answer and run away from, despite the MANY times I've asked. Do you call that "advancing the discussion"? Good grief!
Again, I am talking about the topic, while you rant about me.
Doesn't mean I am claiming to be some kind of victim, but it does say something about our exchanges and where your heart is, BTD.
Doesn't mean I am claiming to be some kind of victim, but it does say something about our exchanges and where your heart is, BTD.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Can we just be respectful to each other as we discuss our differences? Thanks
NO.Oldbear83 said:
Again, I am talking about the topic, while you rant about me.
Doesn't mean I am claiming to be some kind of victim, but it does say something about our exchanges and where your heart is, BTD.
I was the one discussing the topic, then you came in with this:
"When someone wants to do all the talking, you may be sure they are not doing much learning."
Clearly you intended only to attack the messenger, not the message. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You attack someone, then they defend themselves, then you claim they're the one "ranting" about you and attacking you. As someone else aptly noted in another thread, you are the aggressor and simultaneously play the victim. I will add to that, that you stonewall discussions but then accuse others of not "advancing the discussion". Do you not have any awareness of this?
Sorry, I am trying to. But for some reason, a few here have decided that since they can't attack the message, they'll attack the messenger. I call out this kind of dishonesty the same way I call out unbiblical thinking.xfrodobagginsx said:
Can we just be respectful to each other as we discuss our differences? Thanks
It's amazing how Christlike BTD is these days ...
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Being Christ-like means sometimes you have to overturn tables and drive hypocrites out with a whip.Oldbear83 said:
It's amazing how Christlike BTD is these days ...
Christ: "Love your enemies"BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Being Christ-like means sometimes you have to overturn tables and drive hypocrites out with a whip.Oldbear83 said:
It's amazing how Christlike BTD is these days ...
BTD: [frantically searches for a verse which supports violence]
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Wasn't Jesus being violent when he overturned the tables and drove them out with whips?Oldbear83 said:Christ: "Love your enemies"BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Being Christ-like means sometimes you have to overturn tables and drive hypocrites out with a whip.Oldbear83 said:
It's amazing how Christlike BTD is these days ...
BTD: [frantically searches for a verse which supports violence]
Oh wait, that was a question. Well, I guess I'm not getting an answer.
Why can't we discuss this as you would a friend, with respect. No one is saying that you have to agree. I am a Protestant, my good friend is a Catholic and my other friend is in the World Wide Church of God that I consider a cult. We go out and debate for hours, respectfully and then we leave as great friends. It is possible guys.
I can be friends with those who show respect and courtesy. When one drives away posters and only seeks to win arguments, to the point we see here, is not seeking friendship nor wisdom.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Everyone: Before you discuss this topic, please take the time to read this first post.