your cluelessxfrodobagginsx said:
It's called the providence of God. He has a purpose for everything that happens. God is Sovereign
you don't have a clear understanding of who and what you are as a human being. you are a mammal pure and simple. there is no place in human history where you fell from grace and committed sin. there is no need to be saved. All religion is culturally based and manmade. It is a myth. and for a fact, not belief, you had an ancient ape ancestor.joseywales said:your cluelessxfrodobagginsx said:
It's called the providence of God. He has a purpose for everything that happens. God is Sovereign
You're clueless.joseywales said:you don't have a clear understanding of who and what you are as a human being. you are a mammal pure and simple. there is no place in human history where you fell from grace and committed sin. there is no need to be saved. All religion is culturally based and manmade. It is a myth. and for a fact, not belief, you had an ancient ape ancestor.joseywales said:your cluelessxfrodobagginsx said:
It's called the providence of God. He has a purpose for everything that happens. God is Sovereign
I understand why you believe what you do and how people get there. I was there myself for most of my life till I took my blinders off. anyone can believe what they want, you can believe the earth is flat for example if you want to it as long as you don't try to disagree with the scientific proof of such things. you simply have a zero chance of an argument from a rational point of view.
And if you go back and study where your religion came from including the Judaism before Christianity and you read unbiased non religion historical scholars you will have a deeper understanding of just how your religion came to be and it had nothing to with God just with men. I wish you nothing but the best, I just cant not respond to such ludicrous statements that it was God's plan to save one rotten politician and God does nothing for the innocent lives each day. there is no personal God however there may be a creator but not one that has anything to do with feeble minded human myths. most likely when you die you will be dead forever and just like the rest of the mammals on the earth.
Oldbear83 said:
josey, I am amused to see you claim Frodo has no way to know if his beliefs are true, yet you post bold, unproven claims of your own and imagine they stand on their own.
Not speaking for Frodo, but I believe in God for the simple reason that I do have a personal relationship with Him. I imagine you will snort in derision to read that, but I cannot deny what I have experienced, and there are a great many of us who have had these experiences.
This relationship with God does not make me a better person than you, by the way. Jesus said He was not here for the healthy, but to tend to those who were sick and in need. But for purposes of our discussion on the point of God's existence, direct experience does have merit, even if you do not believe it because you have not had that experience that you can recall.
joseywales said:
They are not unproven claims..you and I are mammals. I was a believer for most of my life and a former Baptist student union president. I have lived the faith, so don't pretend to know anything about my back ground or experience in religious circles. I have been deep in that experience. The only experience anyone has with a personal God is self delusion. Just based on the one fact alone that I mentioned at the begining of this reply. There is no evidence whatsoever for any after life or any personal God in this world. However there are mountains of evidence of why religion is man made. It did sadden me when I realized the truth.
I don't expect anyone who has faith in a personal God regardless of whatever culture that they grew up in and whatever they were brainwashed with at such a young age to believe in. It is almost impossible to find a way to think with reason and not with the propaganda that religion teaches. And when I say evidence I am talking about evidence that holds up to endless scrutiny. The beauty of science is it only cares about the truth and does not try to represent a certain way of thinking.
I spent 10 years studying the history of my faith and the religions before it that it was built on. This included near death studies as well. I don't claim to know if God exist or what happens to us when we die because we simply don't have any evidence for such. The evidence we do have seems to point that when we die it's over unless you believe all creatures have souls. Take a look outside of apologist literature and accurate historical facts and maybe you can overcome the delusion of religion.
As a songwriter, many of my songs about grief and death have religious overtones because I know my audience wants to think a loved one is ok after they die and they will see them again someday. So I am sensitive to others feelings about such things.
I also think that religion should not be a taboo subject to challenge! We should challenge the beliefs based on ancient superstitions especially when such an absurd statement is made that God protected Donald Trump while at the same time allowed others to die and suffer on the same day. It is clear that is illogical thinking. A thousand or more years from now people will look back and wonder how we ever believed such things. I wish the best for you..
How is it illogical for God to protect one person, but let others die? You might be trying to make the argument that it isn't "fair", but that has nothing to do with logic. Didn't God allow Herod to kill all male babies in Bethlehem, but He protected baby Jesus from Herod? So it's consistent with what God has done before. Just because you don't understand or agree with it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a specific purpose for it. So where's the "illogic"?Quote:
.... We should challenge the beliefs based on ancient superstitions especially when such an absurd statement is made that God protected Donald Trump while at the same time allowed others to die and suffer on the same day. It is clear that is illogical thinking.
such a selfish version of life.. your own righteousness will be your death. There are multiple accountings where God did things such as Daniel in the lions pit because Daniel was acting as an instrument of God.joseywales said:
You are clueless!!!!! He saved Donald Trump but allowed thousands of children die today from disease and starvation...delusional
Oldbear83 said:
Josey, I wish you well, but i am sad that you imagine faith is 'brainwashing.
One day I think you will understand better, but for now peace be with you and may your walk be on straight roads.
Frodo, I appreciate Josey's posts for reminding me that you and I follow the same Master, and I hope going forward our discussions will be collegial rather than fractious.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:How is it illogical for God to protect one person, but let others die? You might be trying to make the argument that it isn't "fair", but that has nothing to do with logic. Didn't God allow Herod to kill all male babies in Bethlehem, but He protected baby Jesus from Herod? So it's consistent with what God has done before. Just because you don't understand or agree with it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a specific purpose for it. So where's the "illogic"?Quote:
.... We should challenge the beliefs based on ancient superstitions especially when such an absurd statement is made that God protected Donald Trump while at the same time allowed others to die and suffer on the same day. It is clear that is illogical thinking.
joseywales said:
The Bible is a religious document not a historical one. It is a biased book and most of it may e even as .uch except for the letters of Paul are mythology. It was written by Greek scholar types done in the mythological form of the day. Greek is the original language. And who cares! The whole premise of my former religion is you need to be saved and now we know how our species got here and at no point was there ever a perfect human. It is an idea that pre dates Christianity by thousands of years! God in man's form virgin births devils etc etc. These are all borrowed ideas from other belief systems that news etc were exposed to. 70 percent of judism comes from the Persian religions.
Oldbear83 said:
Well Josey, you can say what you like and certainly you have a right to your opinion, but the Bible was long ago confirmed to be a reputable source for historical events and insights into human character, and that verdict was from secular academics.
Even a cursory comparison between the Bible and, say, the Quran or the Vedas demonstrates a much higher standard of academic diligence.
Just thought I should mention that point.
Realitybites said:
A discussion about the meaning of repentance and salvation to ensure that these concepts are fully understood.
I have a sense that the current framing of Christianity in the US goes something like this: (1) I feel bad for the bad things I do, and I don't want to go to hell, so I'll pray the sinners prayer and go to church to avoid it or (2) Jesus ate with sinners and loves me just as I am, and I go to church for a positive emotional fix.
I suspect that the former described much of evangelical / fundamental church gospel presentations in the second half of the 20th century with the 1990s being a transition to the latter which dominates today.
Both fail to grasp the whole truth.
Genesis tells us that God created us in his *image* and *likeness* to be in communion with Him. In the fall, that image was marred, that likeness was lost, and that communion was broken.
Fundamentally, salvation is more than saying a prayer to change ones legal status so that you can avoid hell. It is the process of reversing the effects of the fall and restoring communion with God. Yes, this process saves you from sin and death, but only because it reverses the effects of the fall.
Remorse and repentance are two different things. The former can lead to the latter, but real Christian repentance - a change in direction - is much more similar to AA's twelve step program than most gospel presentations let on...and it is this change in direction that enables God to begin undoing the effects of the fall.
If we merely feel remorse for what we have done and pray a sinners prayer (for the Evangelicals) or go to confession (for the Roman Catholics) without repentance as defined above we are still following a way that seems right to a man but leads to death.
Just so we are clear about what these terms actually mean.
That is a mischaracterization of how Christianity is framed in the U.S. The belief is not that repeating certain words in a prayer saves, it's the belief in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that he died for your sins and rose from the dead - just as it is presented to us by the apostle Paul.Realitybites said:
A discussion about the meaning of repentance and salvation to ensure that these concepts are fully understood.
I have a sense that the current framing of Christianity in the US goes something like this: (1) I feel bad for the bad things I do, and I don't want to go to hell, so I'll pray the sinners prayer and go to church to avoid it or (2) Jesus ate with sinners and loves me just as I am, and I go to church for a positive emotional fix.
I suspect that the former described much of evangelical / fundamental church gospel presentations in the second half of the 20th century with the 1990s being a transition to the latter which dominates today.
Both fail to grasp the whole truth.
Genesis tells us that God created us in his *image* and *likeness* to be in communion with Him. In the fall, that image was marred, that likeness was lost, and that communion was broken.
Fundamentally, salvation is more than saying a prayer to change ones legal status so that you can avoid hell. It is the process of reversing the effects of the fall and restoring communion with God. Yes, this process saves you from sin and death, but only because it reverses the effects of the fall.
Remorse and repentance are two different things. The former can lead to the latter, but real Christian repentance - a change in direction - is much more similar to AA's twelve step program than most gospel presentations let on...and it is this change in direction that enables God to begin undoing the effects of the fall.
If we merely feel remorse for what we have done and pray a sinners prayer (for the Evangelicals) or go to confession (for the Roman Catholics) without repentance as defined above we are still following a way that seems right to a man but leads to death.
Just so we are clear about what these terms actually mean.
It's a LOT older than circa 1100. Try the prophet Isaiah:Realitybites said:
Yeah. I read it. Its a fairly standard presentation of point 1 in my post based on penal substitionary atonement circa 1100.
Realitybites said:
Yeah. I read it. Its a fairly standard presentation of point 1 in my post based on penal substitionary atonement circa 1100 which misses rhe broader meaning of salvation.
joseywales said:
They are not unproven claims..you and I are mammals. I was a believer for most of my life and a former Baptist student union president. I have lived the faith, so don't pretend to know anything about my back ground or experience in religious circles. I have been deep in that experience. The only experience anyone has with a personal God is self delusion. Just based on the one fact alone that I mentioned at the begining of this reply. There is no evidence whatsoever for any after life or any personal God in this world. However there are mountains of evidence of why religion is man made. It did sadden me when I realized the truth.
I don't expect anyone who has faith in a personal God regardless of whatever culture that they grew up in and whatever they were brainwashed with at such a young age to believe in. It is almost impossible to find a way to think with reason and not with the propaganda that religion teaches. And when I say evidence I am talking about evidence that holds up to endless scrutiny. The beauty of science is it only cares about the truth and does not try to represent a certain way of thinking.
I spent 10 years studying the history of my faith and the religions before it that it was built on. This included near death studies as well. I don't claim to know if God exist or what happens to us when we die because we simply don't have any evidence for such. The evidence we do have seems to point that when we die it's over unless you believe all creatures have souls. Take a look outside of apologist literature and accurate historical facts and maybe you can overcome the delusion of religion.
As a songwriter, many of my songs about grief and death have religious overtones because I know my audience wants to think a loved one is ok after they die and they will see them again someday. So I am sensitive to others feelings about such things.
I also think that religion should not be a taboo subject to challenge! We should challenge the beliefs based on ancient superstitions especially when such an absurd statement is made that God protected Donald Trump while at the same time allowed others to die and suffer on the same day. It is clear that is illogical thinking. A thousand or more years from now people will look back and wonder how we ever believed such things. I wish the best for you..
