Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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You're not calling by phone or texting, right?

You're not sending a letter, right?

---

I can only guess that you are trying to state that the saints' CANT hear or are aware of our prayers?

In Revelation 5:8, the twenty-four elders, who appear to represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven, offer incense to God. We are told that the incense is "the prayers of the saints." In Revelation 8:34, an angel offers incense that is mingled with "the prayers of all the saints."

James 5:16 says that "the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." Are they any more righteous than those in heaven?

---

Show me where Jesus spoke to, say, Noah or Abraham or David in the way you "speak" to Mary?


Now to your examples, in both cases the prayers are sent TO GOD, not another believer or saint or angel.

Do not give to Man what belongs to God.

---

If I recall correctly, Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration.

---

In person.

Not with bowed head, and not with phrases like "Hail Moses, full of Grace" or "Hail Elijah, blessed are thou among men"

Jesus never prayed to anyone but God, and we were never meant to do different.

---

Luke 1

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


46And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;

---

Nowhere does this say Mary is suddenly a deific personage, much less someone to pray to.

Consider the 3rd Chapter of Mark, by the way, when Mary gets a little big on herself and expected Jesus to leave His teaching to see what she wanted (verse 31).

'Christ replied "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35, also Matthew 12:48-50)

Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

If there ever was a chance for Jesus to tell his followers to venerate Mary to the level that Catholics do, it would have been at this time, and also in Luke 11:27-28 when someone actually tried to venerate her. But instead of validating her praise for her, Jesus redirects it to others. Hardly the ringing endorsement from Jesus, I'd say. Catholics are truly creating scriptural support for their beliefs virtually out of thin air.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You're not calling by phone or texting, right?

You're not sending a letter, right?

---

I can only guess that you are trying to state that the saints' CANT hear or are aware of our prayers?

In Revelation 5:8, the twenty-four elders, who appear to represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven, offer incense to God. We are told that the incense is "the prayers of the saints." In Revelation 8:34, an angel offers incense that is mingled with "the prayers of all the saints."

James 5:16 says that "the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." Are they any more righteous than those in heaven?

---

Show me where Jesus spoke to, say, Noah or Abraham or David in the way you "speak" to Mary?


Now to your examples, in both cases the prayers are sent TO GOD, not another believer or saint or angel.

Do not give to Man what belongs to God.

---

If I recall correctly, Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration.

---

In person.

Not with bowed head, and not with phrases like "Hail Moses, full of Grace" or "Hail Elijah, blessed are thou among men"

Jesus never prayed to anyone but God, and we were never meant to do different.

---

Luke 1

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


46And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;

---

Nowhere does this say Mary is suddenly a deific personage, much less someone to pray to.

Consider the 3rd Chapter of Mark, by the way, when Mary gets a little big on herself and expected Jesus to leave His teaching to see what she wanted (verse 31).

'Christ replied "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:33-35, also Matthew 12:48-50)

Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

One would think by now in this thread that we could get past the disagreement over the nature of prayer as over against worship. As ever, many on the more Protestant end of the spectrum continue to conflate prayer with worship while those on the Catholic/Anglican/Orthodox do not give assent to this conflation. I no more worship Mary when I ask for her intercession than I worship the guys in my men's group when I share my concerns with them and seek their intercession. It's really that simple.

For your consideration:
https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=50095&fbclid=IwY2xjawHRBipleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHXxhVVS4z5v71v_3jMp0SSdeguya-xV-USlajfc71Q2N3YDouT156MTUwA_aem_Oc1N_L6To0yIWevMY8MfYQ

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

---

Typical stupid take from you. Keep up the good work. I'm sure Jesus is pleased. Merry Christmas!

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Once again, what do you think "pray" means?

---

How are you speaking to Mary if not by prayer?

---

You haven't fully answered the question; therefore, I explain it (again.) To "pray" means to "ask." We are asking her for her intercession. It's biblically sound (James 5:16) to ask someone to pray for us.

Oldbear83 said:

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And show me even one place where God told a living person to reach out to a person who had passed into the afterlife.

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Show me where he said NOT to ask for intercession.

Oldbear83 said:

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(Witch of Endor says hi if you want a reminder that we don't reach out to those who have passed).

---

You are misunderstanding the scriptures. Deut 18:10-11 -
Prohibits those that "who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

Catholics are NOT seeking information or trying to know the future like poor King Saul. Catholics are asking the saints to pray for us. We are asking for their intercession.

Oldbear83 said:

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It's not about whether someone is living in Heaven, it's what God tells us we may and may not do.

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God doesn't tell us to many things that we do today. God never explicitly tells us to NOT ask for intercession.

Oldbear83 said:

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And why is it that the "Hail Mary" is most commonly referred to as a prayer, if you contact her by some spiritual cell phone never mentioned before?

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The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Should we even be ADDING anything to the original Scripture?? Or should we take the words as God has given them?

Thank you, though, for admitting that words have to be added to Scripture in order to get the meaning that you want.

---

Please read more slowly and carefully when seeking your "Gotcha" moments.

The word "add" in my post was in quotations meaning that it wasn't added. It was included as a point of clarification to the passage. Which means that it what the original author was referring to.

Please also note that "prophets" is in the "most highly revered" KJV. It's not listed in the RSV-CE nor the NAB. We understand what the passage means without having to include the word like the KJV.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

---

Typical stupid take from you. Keep up the good work. I'm sure Jesus is pleased. Merry Christmas!

---

Truth hurts, I know.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Should we even be ADDING anything to the original Scripture?? Or should we take the words as God has given them?

Thank you, though, for admitting that words have to be added to Scripture in order to get the meaning that you want.

---

Please read more slowly and carefully when seeking your "Gotcha" moments.

The word "add" in my post was in quotations meaning that it wasn't added. It was included as a point of clarification to the passage. Which means that it what the original author was referring to.

Please also note that "prophets" is in the "most highly revered" KJV. It's not listed in the RSV-CE nor the NAB. We understand what the passage means without having to include the word like the KJV.

---

Your "add" was in reference to the authors of the KJV and Douay-Rheims version, not the original. Scholarship agrees with me, that "prophets" is the likely addition, as the earliest manuscripts do not include it. So history agrees with me as well.

It's strange how you like to emphasize early church tradition in order to bolster current Catholic beliefs (which you haven't really been able to show, like with Mary being the greatest human/woman), but with regard to Greek texts, earlier doesn't matter. The "highly revered" KJV is based on texts dated to the 11th century, which is predated by texts that the ESV, NIV, Berean, NAS, etc are based on.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

---

Typical stupid take from you. Keep up the good work. I'm sure Jesus is pleased. Merry Christmas!

---

Truth hurts, I know.

---

So glad you feel the pain. Maybe it will lead to healing.

curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

---

I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.

Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

Coke Bear: "Show me where he said NOT to ask for intercession."

No, that's a really bad way to plan moral choices.

There are no scriptures saying don't drink and drive, for example.

And keep in mind what happened to King Saul. Not one of the Ten Commandments actually says the King cannot offer the sacrifice as the priests do .. but that's because you sort of understand the spirit of the thing, that you do not claim for yourself what belongs to others.

Following Jesus means doing what He did, and doing what He told us to do. Assuming it's cool to do something He never did, just because there is no specific verse where He says not to, well that's standing in a pool of gasoline trying to light your grill for a BBQ.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

---

I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.

Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.

curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

---

I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.

Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.

---

Your ego is too big.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

---

I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.

Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.

---

Your ego is too big.

---

I belonged to a Southern Baptist Church for 15 years and I can say that I don't believe that they equip their members very well in the Faith. Did you ever take any Discipleship Classes to learn the Foundational Doctrines fo the Faith? If not, then that would possibly explain the misguided view of Communion. It's just an ordinance from Christ for Saved Believers to remember what He did for them.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

---

I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.

Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.

---

Your ego is too big.

---

I belonged to a Southern Baptist Church for 15 years and I can say that I don't believe that they equip their members very well in the Faith. Did you ever take any Discipleship Classes to learn the Foundational Doctrines fo the Faith? If not, then that would possibly explain the misguided view of Communion. It's just an ordinance from Christ for Saved Believers to remember what He did for them.

---

Was that to me or CurtPenn, Frodo?

Curtpenn

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

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Typical stupid take from you. Keep up the good work. I'm sure Jesus is pleased. Merry Christmas!

---

Truth hurts, I know.

---

So glad you feel the pain. Maybe it will lead to healing.

---

I'm not the one lashing out with ad hominem.

Please read up on what we're talking about this time around, to avoid embarassing yourself by not knowing the basic facts again.

I'm glad you're back, though. Nothing provides a better witness to the fruit of your beliefs, than your usual ugliness in these forums. Keep posting! And try not to hurt yourself this time around.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

This is what we've been saying over and over to them in this forum. WHY and HOW do they not get this? How many times are they gonna use this ridiculous argument that prayer is just "asking", just like how we ask our everyday friends??

Prayer is a form of spiritual communication. If you are praying to someone/something, you are believing that person/thing can hear you or read your heart/mind, no matter where you are. This has only been known and believed to be characteristic of deity. Living people can't do this. If departed people who are in heaven can actually do this, it should be clearly and definitively laid out in scripture - which it is NOT.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

I find myself doing that as well at times. I don't think it is all that wrong to believe that in some way, you are still spiritually connected to those who you knew personally and had deep love for, even after they depart. But probably the better way to do this is to ask Jesus to bring your message to them, or to first ask him to allow them to hear you. If Roman Catholics/Orthodox Christians did it this way, it actually would be much less of a problem, at least with regard to contacting Mary and saints. However, there'd still be the huge problem with heresy and idolatry of Mary and the saints, with all their bowing to and kissing of their image, singing hymns to, having feasts for, etc.

Quote:

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Mary was not part of the Old Testament prophets...... The set (in the universe of discourse) that Jesus refers to in the entire passage is the prophets of the OT.

---

John the Baptist wasn't part of the Old Testament prophets either. But Jesus included him in his comparison. So obviously, the set in the "universe of discourse" was NOT limited to the prophets of the OT.

So even if you believe that in Luke 7:28 Jesus was only referring to the "set" of prophets, it had to be ALL the prophets up until the time of John the Baptist, which included Mary. You've debunked your whole argument.

Coke Bear said:

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The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.

---

Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.

"26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

- Luke 1:26-33

As was pointed out earlier, it's a prayer request preceeded by Bible verses.

Just noting that the same person who wrote

"I'm not the one lashing out with ad hominem."

In the same post included

"Please read up on what we're talking about this time around, to avoid embarassing yourself by not knowing the basic facts again."

and

"I'm glad you're back, though. Nothing provides a better witness to the fruit of your beliefs, than your usual ugliness in these forums. Keep posting! And try not to hurt yourself this time around."


Christians discussing a point with other Christians should remember to seek wisdom, not argument.

Realitybites said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.

---

Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.

"26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.



- Luke 1:26-33

---

Blessed does not mean greater than others in worth, but refers to a condition of Grace and Love.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Your "add" was in reference to the authors of the KJV and Douay-Rheims version, not the original. Scholarship agrees with me, that "prophets" is the likely addition, as the earliest manuscripts do not include it. So history agrees with me as well.

It's strange how you like to emphasize early church tradition in order to bolster current Catholic beliefs (which you haven't really been able to show, like with Mary being the greatest human/woman), but with regard to Greek texts, earlier doesn't matter. The "highly revered" KJV is based on texts dated to the 11th century, which is predated by texts that the ESV, NIV, Berean, NAS, etc are based on.

---

There are a lot of good reasons why earlier scrolls, discovered later, may be less accurate. Things wear out. Rather than assuming the working premise of scientism that any delta from newer scrolls compared to older ones is due to additions to the scripture, it's equally valid to say that the older extant scrolls were abandoned due to inaccuracies and therefore correcting the preserved common text using them is incorrect.

Regardless, I choose not to use the precepts of scientism to try and correct the Biblical text, and go with the complete bible used by Christians for millenia.

There used to be an old saying in Baptist circles: "If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true."

Unfortunate that it has been abandoned.

How Not To Get To Heaven

Don't do this.

Pastor Rolls Out AI Version of Himself for a Modest Fee

"Be that as it may, Redemption World Outreach Center, a megachurch in Greenville, S.C., is rolling out an AI version of its pastor, Ron Carpenter. According to Not the Bee, the church has so many members that Carpenter simply cannot find the time for one-on-one meetings with everyone. And it's available on an app for a mere $49 a month. I am assuming the charges roll over to the next month unless you cancel the credit card.

For your $49, you get to chat with AI Carpenter whenever it is convenient and access his 30 years of ministerial experience. There is no word on any in-app purchases or what data it gathers on the user. However, the robot-pastor algorithm will store information about past conversations for potential use in future counseling sessions.

There is nothing like a bot that knows your personal secrets, inner pain, and spiritual struggles. Some systems admin out there is going to have a field day with that one. And as a bonus, you can even submit prayer requests. That raises the issue of who is actually doing the praying. Is it the AI?"

AI Jesus Hears Confessions in a Swiss Church

"St. Peter's Chapel in Lucerne, Switzerland, has been trying to change that, sort of. It has installed an AI Jesus for parishioners who seek comfort or advice. The person enters the confessional, and on the other side of the screen is a monitor with the image of Jesus. The image answers questions and offers counsel about matters of faith. Although AI Jesus does provide a disclaimer, warning the faithful, "Do not disclose personal information under any circumstances, use this service at your own risk, press the button if you accept." The experimental project was dubbed "Deus in Machina" and is the product of computer researchers from Lucerne University. AI Jesus even speaks 100 languages. According to the report linked above, around two-thirds of users had a positive experience with the...god bot?"

As we move further into the end times, you are going to see increasingly bizarre manifestations of opinionanity until the Antichrist manifests himself. Jesus, my Bible, and me will not be able to stand against that.

Oldbear83 said:

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Just noting that the same person who wrote

"I'm not the one lashing out with ad hominem."

In the same post included

"Please read up on what we're talking about this time around, to avoid embarassing yourself by not knowing the basic facts again."

and

"I'm glad you're back, though. Nothing provides a better witness to the fruit of your beliefs, than your usual ugliness in these forums. Keep posting! And try not to hurt yourself this time around."


Christians discussing a point with other Christians should remember to seek wisdom, not argument.

---

He DIDN'T know basic facts.

He DID show ugliness. Haven't you been reading his comments?

These are not ad hominem. Please understand what ad hominem is before you accuse someone of hypocrisy regarding it. And if anyone needs to hear that we should "remember to seek wisdom, not argument" it's just as much YOU as it is anyone else.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your "add" was in reference to the authors of the KJV and Douay-Rheims version, not the original. Scholarship agrees with me, that "prophets" is the likely addition, as the earliest manuscripts do not include it. So history agrees with me as well.

It's strange how you like to emphasize early church tradition in order to bolster current Catholic beliefs (which you haven't really been able to show, like with Mary being the greatest human/woman), but with regard to Greek texts, earlier doesn't matter. The "highly revered" KJV is based on texts dated to the 11th century, which is predated by texts that the ESV, NIV, Berean, NAS, etc are based on.

---

There are a lot of good reasons why earlier scrolls, discovered later, may be less accurate. Things wear out. Rather than assuming the working premise of scientism that any delta from newer scrolls compared to older ones is due to additions to the scripture, it's equally valid to say that the older extant scrolls were abandoned due to inaccuracies and therefore correcting the preserved common text using them is incorrect.

Regardless, I choose not to use the precepts of scientism to try and correct the Biblical text, and go with the complete bible used by Christians for millenia.

There used to be an old saying in Baptist circles: "If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true."

Unfortunate that it has been abandoned.

---

Text used "for millenia" isn't an indicator of its accuracy either. Especially if the manuscript evidence showed it appeared much later than the other.

If you're going to reject the "scientism" of the idea that older(earlier) is closer to the original, then you're rejecting your own claims for the correctness of Orthodoxy.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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curtpenn said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?

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I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.

Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.

---

It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.

---

Your ego is too big.

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Ironic coming from you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

This is what we've been saying over and over to them in this forum. WHY and HOW do they not get this? How many times are they gonna use this ridiculous argument that prayer is just "asking", just like how we ask our everyday friends??

Prayer is a form of spiritual communication. If you are praying to someone/something, you are believing that person/thing can hear you or read your heart/mind, no matter where you are. This has only been known and believed to be characteristic of deity. Living people can't do this. If departed people who are in heaven can actually do this, it should be clearly and definitively laid out in scripture - which it is NOT.

---

You are the one who argues by assertion and ad nauseum. Your opinions don't define reality for everyone at all times and in all places. I don't worship St Mary nor any saints, yet I talk to them. Sorry you can't seem to grasp such a simple concept. Get better soon.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

---

Typical stupid take from you. Keep up the good work. I'm sure Jesus is pleased. Merry Christmas!

---

Truth hurts, I know.

---

So glad you feel the pain. Maybe it will lead to healing.

---

I'm not the one lashing out with ad hominem.

Please read up on what we're talking about this time around, to avoid embarassing yourself by not knowing the basic facts again.

I'm glad you're back, though. Nothing provides a better witness to the fruit of your beliefs, than your usual ugliness in these forums. Keep posting! And try not to hurt yourself this time around.

---

More irony from you. Sharing the joy of the birth of Christ in such a compelling fashion makes quite the statement from you, hypocrite. Plus ca change...

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.

---

Prayer is a form of communication.

---

Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?

---

This is what we've been saying over and over to them in this forum. WHY and HOW do they not get this? How many times are they gonna use this ridiculous argument that prayer is just "asking", just like how we ask our everyday friends??

Prayer is a form of spiritual communication. If you are praying to someone/something, you are believing that person/thing can hear you or read your heart/mind, no matter where you are. This has only been known and believed to be characteristic of deity. Living people can't do this. If departed people who are in heaven can actually do this, it should be clearly and definitively laid out in scripture - which it is NOT.

---

You are the one who argues by assertion and ad nauseum. Your opinions don't define reality for everyone at all times and in all places. I don't worship St Mary nor any saints, yet I talk to them. Sorry you can't seem to grasp such a simple concept. Get better soon.

---

When I state opinions, they are opinions, but logic is logic. Your inability to discern between the two may be one of your central problems in grasping what's being discussed. Your tendency to resort to ad hominem instead of providing a cogent argument is likely an indicator of that.

With this, your latest comment, you are not being mindful of the argument - prayer IS a form of worship, but EVEN IF it were not, it still is a form of idolatry and heresy, because you are conferring qualities upon Mary and the saints that have only belonged to deity, and are nowhere supported in Scripture. If anyone isn't grasping the concept(s) it's you. "Physician, heal thyself".

curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

First, you are trying to argue using Sola Scriptura with is actually self-refuting and unbiblical.

Second, Jesus could have came into the world any way God wanted to. He could have incarnated as a fully grown man or he could have been born from a reigning king or he could have been born of a prostitute like Rahab. But he wasn't. God chose to him to be born of a perfect woman.

Third, having read the Catechism, Catholics don't worship Mary. Worship involves sacrifice. No Catholic Church offers sacrifice to Mary. The only sacrifice that we offer is to God.

Finally, you don't understand salvation history or the OT. According to Genesis, Eve came from Adam (woman from man). They were both born sinless until they fell. Fast forward to the incarnation, now Jesus comes from Mary (now man from woman). Jesus is the new ADAM. Mary is the new

---

You've repeatedly said Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, but you've never shown how. Sola Scriptura is not self-refuting. This is just another really weak Catholic rebuttal.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that Mary was a perfect woman. This is yet another heretical attempt at deifying Mary that crept into the Catholic Church over time via accretion, which clearly is not in scripture or the early church.

If God could have chosen Jesus to have been born of any woman, even a prostitute.... then clearly, it was not necessary that Mary be a perfect woman. There is no reason, therefore, to think that she was. The only reason to is by conscious choice, not by divine revelation - a conscious choice to elevate her to the level of deity.

Catholics can deny that they worship Mary all they want - but having statues and pictures of her, bowing to her image, kissing her image, praying to her, singing hymns to her, having HUNDREDS of feasts to Mary every year (much, much more than for God), and saying her name 10 times to every one time saying God's name in the rosary..... you just aren't fooling ANYONE. "Worship" isn't just sacrifice. It's all the above. Do Catholics really think people are this stupid to buy this??

In order for Jesus to be the new "Adam", his "Eve" would have to come FROM him, just as Eve was the "new" thing that came from Adam. Mary did not come from Jesus, Jesus was born from her. The "new" thing that came from Jesus was the church, Jesus' body of believers. If there is such a thing as a "new Eve" (which isn't biblical) it would be the church - that's why it's called the bride of Christ. But perhaps it is appropriate, though, to call Mary the new Eve in the sense that Eve brought sin into the world, just as the Catholic Mary has brought heresey and idolatry into Christianity.


Please WAKE UP. Give up the charade. The entire rational world knows you worship Mary.

---

Typical stupid take from you. Keep up the good work. I'm sure Jesus is pleased. Merry Christmas!

---

Truth hurts, I know.

---

So glad you feel the pain. Maybe it will lead to healing.

---

I'm not the one lashing out with ad hominem.

Please read up on what we're talking about this time around, to avoid embarassing yourself by not knowing the basic facts again.

I'm glad you're back, though. Nothing provides a better witness to the fruit of your beliefs, than your usual ugliness in these forums. Keep posting! And try not to hurt yourself this time around.

---

More irony from you. Sharing the joy of the birth of Christ in such a compelling fashion makes quite the statement from you, hypocrite. Plus ca change...

---

Telling people like you the uncomfortable truth that you need to hear, may not be a "joyous" thing to do, but in this case what's necessary is much more important than what's joyous. But even if joy is the goal, then it's apropos because what certainly would lead to much, much less joy for you as well as for Jesus, would be for you to continue on in heresy and idolatry.