Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
curtpenn said:Ironic coming from you.Oldbear83 said:Your ego is too big.curtpenn said:Oldbear83 said:curtpenn said:When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?xfrodobagginsx said:curtpenn said:xfrodobagginsx said:
Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.
Prayer is a form of communication.
Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?
I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.
Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.
It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.
You can't call out something that doesn't exist. And I'm going to have to call you out on your hypocrisy.Oldbear83 said:curtpenn said:Ironic coming from you.Oldbear83 said:Your ego is too big.curtpenn said:Oldbear83 said:curtpenn said:When you talked to dead loved ones, how is that different from talking to St Mary or other saints who have gone on before?xfrodobagginsx said:curtpenn said:xfrodobagginsx said:
Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.
Prayer is a form of communication.
Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?
I do not speak to the dead. For my loved ones who have passed on, I ask the Lord to look after them, which I believe includes showing them what He wished them to see and hear.
Prayer is for God only. Do not give to any human what belongs to God alone.
It's unfortunate you have such a limited view of the communion of saints but I understand. I spent 40 years believing as you do as a born and raised Southern Baptist, but I'm so grateful my eyes were opened to the fullness of faith. Your God is too small.
I called out BTD for his ad hominem, doing it here for yours.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Oldbear83 said:
From Merriam-Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem
ad hominem
adjective
ad hominem ()ad-h-m-nm
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
an ad hominem argument
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
made an ad hominem personal attack on his rival
A reasonable person looking at posts in this thread, and especially in this section on the controversy of Marianism, would agree that both BusyTarpDuster and Curtpenn have indeed engaged in that behavior in their most recent posts.
And for the record, yes I have done the same before, although in this specific case I am not guilty, as I am focusing on getting the parties to defend their positions rather than attack other people.
And to the greater discussion, I can admit that BusyTarpDuster and CurtPenn have both demonstrated a great deal of academic knowledge. Ironic then that they have come to such disparate conclusions on an important point.
To resolve this sort of dispute needs something different than asserting an opinion with sharp invective. There is a reason, after all, why Christ chose the leaders of His church from fishermen, tradesmen and common folk rather than the most learned in religious texts.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:When I state opinions, they are opinions, but logic is logic. Your inability to discern between the two may be one of your central problems in grasping what's being discussed. Your tendency to resort to ad hominem instead of providing a cogent argument is likely an indicator of that.curtpenn said:You are the one who argues by assertion and ad nauseum. Your opinions don't define reality for everyone at all times and in all places. I don't worship St Mary nor any saints, yet I talk to them. Sorry you can't seem to grasp such a simple concept. Get better soon.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This is what we've been saying over and over to them in this forum. WHY and HOW do they not get this? How many times are they gonna use this ridiculous argument that prayer is just "asking", just like how we ask our everyday friends??xfrodobagginsx said:curtpenn said:xfrodobagginsx said:
Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.
Prayer is a form of communication.
Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?
Prayer is a form of spiritual communication. If you are praying to someone/something, you are believing that person/thing can hear you or read your heart/mind, no matter where you are. This has only been known and believed to be characteristic of deity. Living people can't do this. If departed people who are in heaven can actually do this, it should be clearly and definitively laid out in scripture - which it is NOT.
With this, your latest comment, you are not being mindful of the argument - prayer IS a form of worship, but EVEN IF it were not, it still is a form of idolatry and heresy, because you are conferring qualities upon Mary and the saints that have only belonged to deity, and are nowhere supported in Scripture. If anyone isn't grasping the concept(s) it's you. "Physician, heal thyself".
You specifically pointed to my comments 1) that he didn't know basic facts, and 2) that he demonstrated ugliness in this forum - as being ad hominem themselves. Please explain to us how they meet the definitions you provided.Oldbear83 said:
From Merriam-Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem
ad hominem
adjective
ad hominem ()ad-h-m-nm
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
an ad hominem argument
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
made an ad hominem personal attack on his rival
A reasonable person looking at posts in this thread, and especially in this section on the controversy of Marianism, would agree that both BusyTarpDuster and Curtpenn have indeed engaged in that behavior in their most recent posts.
And for the record, yes I have done the same before, although in this specific case I am not guilty, as I am focusing on getting the parties to defend their positions rather than attack other people.
And to the greater discussion, I can admit that BusyTarpDuster and CurtPenn have both demonstrated a great deal of academic knowledge. Ironic then that they have come to such disparate conclusions on an important point.
To resolve this sort of dispute needs something different than asserting an opinion with sharp invective. There is a reason, after all, why Christ chose the leaders of His church from fishermen, tradesmen and common folk rather than the most learned in religious texts.
Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
You're just all talk, and no action. If you think my logic is faulty, then why don't you show us? With anything I've said? Contend with what I'm saying by making an argument, not by spewing your usual ugliness. If you can't, then you're just an empty vessel who makes the loudest noise.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:When I state opinions, they are opinions, but logic is logic. Your inability to discern between the two may be one of your central problems in grasping what's being discussed. Your tendency to resort to ad hominem instead of providing a cogent argument is likely an indicator of that.curtpenn said:You are the one who argues by assertion and ad nauseum. Your opinions don't define reality for everyone at all times and in all places. I don't worship St Mary nor any saints, yet I talk to them. Sorry you can't seem to grasp such a simple concept. Get better soon.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:This is what we've been saying over and over to them in this forum. WHY and HOW do they not get this? How many times are they gonna use this ridiculous argument that prayer is just "asking", just like how we ask our everyday friends??xfrodobagginsx said:curtpenn said:xfrodobagginsx said:
Prayer is a form of Worship. We only pray to the Lord . With that said, I have at times talked to my dead loved ones, not lke a prayer r anything though.
Prayer is a form of communication.
Do you pray to your friends or talk to your friends?
Prayer is a form of spiritual communication. If you are praying to someone/something, you are believing that person/thing can hear you or read your heart/mind, no matter where you are. This has only been known and believed to be characteristic of deity. Living people can't do this. If departed people who are in heaven can actually do this, it should be clearly and definitively laid out in scripture - which it is NOT.
With this, your latest comment, you are not being mindful of the argument - prayer IS a form of worship, but EVEN IF it were not, it still is a form of idolatry and heresy, because you are conferring qualities upon Mary and the saints that have only belonged to deity, and are nowhere supported in Scripture. If anyone isn't grasping the concept(s) it's you. "Physician, heal thyself".
As ever, you state opinion and confuse that with "logic". I see nothing changes with your moronic spewing.
HOW does it disagree with me? I don't think you're applying the definitions correctly.Oldbear83 said:
Merriam Webster disagrees with you.
I'll go with the Dictionary folks.
But thanks for responding.
Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
Don't lower me down to his level. I'm arguing the case for why RC/Orthodox beliefs and practices are wrong. He's the one attacking personally. If you can't see that, then you aren't an impartial judge. If I'm "bickering", then so are you.Oldbear83 said:Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
There's no real reason to believe anyone is going to stop and admit they are wrong on this one, and unfortunately it's gotten worse as people get more emotional.
I noted Curtpenn's claim that it's OK to pray to Mary unless God specifically prohibits it, which is a real fast way to get into trouble. I don't believe Curtpenn really believes a claim that broad, but he was trying hard to sell the idea that praying to Mary is approved by God.
You and I are close to agreement on that one; praying to a human is a really bad idea, and in some cases would be hard to distinguish from idolatry.
This is a big problem for me, because I see the same thing in the case of the Popes. I mean, sure, some have been great leaders of faith but calling any human 'your holiness' is stealing from God in my inconsequential opinion.
The thing is, for almost a thousand years if you wanted to be a Christian, the Roman church was the closest thing to what Christ wanted for the Church. I believe that a lot of RC parishes are like Protestant local churches, a mix of great people of faith with a number of wolves in their midst to watch out for.
I had hoped we could reach consensus that we all follow Christ as best we can, and while we have differences we will pray for and support fellow Christians where we have common ground. For those areas where we do not agree, we should in my opinion seek the Holy Spirit, consult Scripture, and above all try to walk as believers more than Pharisees.
And accept that none of us will do so perfectly. Among God's graces we should be thankful for, His patience is not praised enough.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
Oldbear83 said:Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
There's no real reason to believe anyone is going to stop and admit they are wrong on this one, and unfortunately it's gotten worse as people get more emotional.
I noted Curtpenn's claim that it's OK to pray to Mary unless God specifically prohibits it, which is a real fast way to get into trouble. I don't believe Curtpenn really believes a claim that broad, but he was trying hard to sell the idea that praying to Mary is approved by God.
You and I are close to agreement on that one; praying to a human is a really bad idea, and in some cases would be hard to distinguish from idolatry.
This is a big problem for me, because I see the same thing in the case of the Popes. I mean, sure, some have been great leaders of faith but calling any human 'your holiness' is stealing from God in my inconsequential opinion.
The thing is, for almost a thousand years if you wanted to be a Christian, the Roman church was the closest thing to what Christ wanted for the Church. I believe that a lot of RC parishes are like Protestant local churches, a mix of great people of faith with a number of wolves in their midst to watch out for.
I had hoped we could reach consensus that we all follow Christ as best we can, and while we have differences we will pray for and support fellow Christians where we have common ground. For those areas where we do not agree, we should in my opinion seek the Holy Spirit, consult Scripture, and above all try to walk as believers more than Pharisees.
And accept that none of us will do so perfectly. Among God's graces we should be thankful for, His patience is not praised enough.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't lower me down to his level. I'm arguing the case for why RC/Orthodox beliefs and practices are wrong. He's the one attacking personally. If you can't see that, then you aren't an impartial judge. If I'm "bickering", then so are you.Oldbear83 said:Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
There's no real reason to believe anyone is going to stop and admit they are wrong on this one, and unfortunately it's gotten worse as people get more emotional.
I noted Curtpenn's claim that it's OK to pray to Mary unless God specifically prohibits it, which is a real fast way to get into trouble. I don't believe Curtpenn really believes a claim that broad, but he was trying hard to sell the idea that praying to Mary is approved by God.
You and I are close to agreement on that one; praying to a human is a really bad idea, and in some cases would be hard to distinguish from idolatry.
This is a big problem for me, because I see the same thing in the case of the Popes. I mean, sure, some have been great leaders of faith but calling any human 'your holiness' is stealing from God in my inconsequential opinion.
The thing is, for almost a thousand years if you wanted to be a Christian, the Roman church was the closest thing to what Christ wanted for the Church. I believe that a lot of RC parishes are like Protestant local churches, a mix of great people of faith with a number of wolves in their midst to watch out for.
I had hoped we could reach consensus that we all follow Christ as best we can, and while we have differences we will pray for and support fellow Christians where we have common ground. For those areas where we do not agree, we should in my opinion seek the Holy Spirit, consult Scripture, and above all try to walk as believers more than Pharisees.
And accept that none of us will do so perfectly. Among God's graces we should be thankful for, His patience is not praised enough.
Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
Keep posting! The fruits of your belief continue to argue my case.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't lower me down to his level. I'm arguing the case for why RC/Orthodox beliefs and practices are wrong. He's the one attacking personally. If you can't see that, then you aren't an impartial judge. If I'm "bickering", then so are you.Oldbear83 said:Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
There's no real reason to believe anyone is going to stop and admit they are wrong on this one, and unfortunately it's gotten worse as people get more emotional.
I noted Curtpenn's claim that it's OK to pray to Mary unless God specifically prohibits it, which is a real fast way to get into trouble. I don't believe Curtpenn really believes a claim that broad, but he was trying hard to sell the idea that praying to Mary is approved by God.
You and I are close to agreement on that one; praying to a human is a really bad idea, and in some cases would be hard to distinguish from idolatry.
This is a big problem for me, because I see the same thing in the case of the Popes. I mean, sure, some have been great leaders of faith but calling any human 'your holiness' is stealing from God in my inconsequential opinion.
The thing is, for almost a thousand years if you wanted to be a Christian, the Roman church was the closest thing to what Christ wanted for the Church. I believe that a lot of RC parishes are like Protestant local churches, a mix of great people of faith with a number of wolves in their midst to watch out for.
I had hoped we could reach consensus that we all follow Christ as best we can, and while we have differences we will pray for and support fellow Christians where we have common ground. For those areas where we do not agree, we should in my opinion seek the Holy Spirit, consult Scripture, and above all try to walk as believers more than Pharisees.
And accept that none of us will do so perfectly. Among God's graces we should be thankful for, His patience is not praised enough.
Buddy, anyone who can go on and on with the same old crap on this thread for as long as you have is on some subterranean level all their own.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Keep posting! The fruits of your belief continue to argue my case.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't lower me down to his level. I'm arguing the case for why RC/Orthodox beliefs and practices are wrong. He's the one attacking personally. If you can't see that, then you aren't an impartial judge. If I'm "bickering", then so are you.Oldbear83 said:Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
There's no real reason to believe anyone is going to stop and admit they are wrong on this one, and unfortunately it's gotten worse as people get more emotional.
I noted Curtpenn's claim that it's OK to pray to Mary unless God specifically prohibits it, which is a real fast way to get into trouble. I don't believe Curtpenn really believes a claim that broad, but he was trying hard to sell the idea that praying to Mary is approved by God.
You and I are close to agreement on that one; praying to a human is a really bad idea, and in some cases would be hard to distinguish from idolatry.
This is a big problem for me, because I see the same thing in the case of the Popes. I mean, sure, some have been great leaders of faith but calling any human 'your holiness' is stealing from God in my inconsequential opinion.
The thing is, for almost a thousand years if you wanted to be a Christian, the Roman church was the closest thing to what Christ wanted for the Church. I believe that a lot of RC parishes are like Protestant local churches, a mix of great people of faith with a number of wolves in their midst to watch out for.
I had hoped we could reach consensus that we all follow Christ as best we can, and while we have differences we will pray for and support fellow Christians where we have common ground. For those areas where we do not agree, we should in my opinion seek the Holy Spirit, consult Scripture, and above all try to walk as believers more than Pharisees.
And accept that none of us will do so perfectly. Among God's graces we should be thankful for, His patience is not praised enough.
Buddy, anyone who can go on and on with the same old crap on this thread for as long as you have is on some subterranean level all their own.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
The spirit that's moving you is of subterranean origin, that much is obvious to everyone.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't lower me down to his level. I'm arguing the case for why RC/Orthodox beliefs and practices are wrong. He's the one attacking personally. If you can't see that, then you aren't an impartial judge. If I'm "bickering", then so are you.Oldbear83 said:Honestly, what I see is you and Curtpenn bickering over something that has been sharply argued for centuries.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Remember my response to you in an earlier comment?:
"You actually have used ad hominem, maybe in a couple of instances. But that's beside the point. I wasn't accusing you of anything, the point was that when someone starts doing that (ad hominem) instead of providing a cogent logical [response to an argument] then it usually is an indicator who is correct and who isn't."
I think you are seeing what I mean....
There's no real reason to believe anyone is going to stop and admit they are wrong on this one, and unfortunately it's gotten worse as people get more emotional.
I noted Curtpenn's claim that it's OK to pray to Mary unless God specifically prohibits it, which is a real fast way to get into trouble. I don't believe Curtpenn really believes a claim that broad, but he was trying hard to sell the idea that praying to Mary is approved by God.
You and I are close to agreement on that one; praying to a human is a really bad idea, and in some cases would be hard to distinguish from idolatry.
This is a big problem for me, because I see the same thing in the case of the Popes. I mean, sure, some have been great leaders of faith but calling any human 'your holiness' is stealing from God in my inconsequential opinion.
The thing is, for almost a thousand years if you wanted to be a Christian, the Roman church was the closest thing to what Christ wanted for the Church. I believe that a lot of RC parishes are like Protestant local churches, a mix of great people of faith with a number of wolves in their midst to watch out for.
I had hoped we could reach consensus that we all follow Christ as best we can, and while we have differences we will pray for and support fellow Christians where we have common ground. For those areas where we do not agree, we should in my opinion seek the Holy Spirit, consult Scripture, and above all try to walk as believers more than Pharisees.
And accept that none of us will do so perfectly. Among God's graces we should be thankful for, His patience is not praised enough.
Buddy, anyone who can go on and on with the same old crap on this thread for as long as you have is on some subterranean level all their own.
That's what I thought. Nothing.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
You've "shown" nothing but hubris and contempt for any voice other than your own, Pharisee.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:That's what I thought. Nothing.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
You've "shown" nothing but hubris and contempt for any voice other than your own, Pharisee.
I'm moving on. I'm looking for those who want to engage in a truthful, honest discussion.
The spirit within you HATES to hear the truth. And I'll continue to say it - the spirit within you can do NOTHING to stop it.
Mathew 7:13-14: "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:That's what I thought. Nothing.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
You've "shown" nothing but hubris and contempt for any voice other than your own, Pharisee.
I'm moving on. I'm looking for those who want to engage in a truthful, honest discussion.
The spirit within you HATES to hear the truth. And I'll continue to say it - the spirit within you can do NOTHING to stop it.
You're not looking for anything other than your own aggrandizement. The truth is that the majority of all Christians who have ever lived would disagree with your monotonous bloviating, and yet you presume you inhabit some sort of high ground. Only in your own head. Hope that helps you cope with your deficiencies. It certainly doesn't change the truth.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Quite evident that a demonic spirit has entered the chat..... it really hates hearing the truth, and hates anyone arguing the truth. I really hope you all are seeing this, it reveals a lot.
xfrodobagginsx said:
I have talked to a few Catholics on this topic of Praying to Mary. My good friend says he doesn't pray to Mary, but rather, he asked her to intercede in prayer for him.
Question: Isn't asking Mary for intercession, the same as Necromancy?
Remember King Saul summoned Samuel with the help of a witch? This type of thing is condemned in the Scripture. The issue isn't with Samuel or Mary, the issue is that they are deceased and we are not allowed to summon them or ask them for favors.
Like I have said, I do admit to having talked to loved ones who I knew in the flesh when they were alive, but I don't ask them to pray for me or intercede for me. That's the job of the Holy Spirit and Christ is the Mediator between God and Men.
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
There is no one else that is allowed to come between God the Father and our Advocate, Jesus Christ.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Mathew 7:13-14: "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:That's what I thought. Nothing.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
You've "shown" nothing but hubris and contempt for any voice other than your own, Pharisee.
I'm moving on. I'm looking for those who want to engage in a truthful, honest discussion.
The spirit within you HATES to hear the truth. And I'll continue to say it - the spirit within you can do NOTHING to stop it.
You're not looking for anything other than your own aggrandizement. The truth is that the majority of all Christians who have ever lived would disagree with your monotonous bloviating, and yet you presume you inhabit some sort of high ground. Only in your own head. Hope that helps you cope with your deficiencies. It certainly doesn't change the truth.
Keep posting!curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Mathew 7:13-14: "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:That's what I thought. Nothing.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Don't tell us, show us, empty vessel.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Seeking intercession in a way that confers upon the intercessor qualities that only belong to deity and have absolutely no basis in scripture, and doing it to images and statues while showing veneration to them, IS idolatry.curtpenn said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Except for the fact that praying to Mary is idolatry.Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
The "Hail May" is a prayer. It is scripture wrapped around a request.
Whatever issues there are with the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, this is not one of them.
Seriously, why can you guys not grasp this??
Because seeking intercession from St Mary isn't idolatry, however much you may repeat ad nauseam that it is.
The only thing that is ad nauseum is your repeated denial of what's plainly obvious.
You continue to argue by assertion which "proves" nothing to anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability while you remain puffed up with your own self righteousness. That's what's painfully obvious.
You've "shown" nothing but hubris and contempt for any voice other than your own, Pharisee.
I'm moving on. I'm looking for those who want to engage in a truthful, honest discussion.
The spirit within you HATES to hear the truth. And I'll continue to say it - the spirit within you can do NOTHING to stop it.
You're not looking for anything other than your own aggrandizement. The truth is that the majority of all Christians who have ever lived would disagree with your monotonous bloviating, and yet you presume you inhabit some sort of high ground. Only in your own head. Hope that helps you cope with your deficiencies. It certainly doesn't change the truth.
Sad and stupid that you believe Catholics are not saved. What's wrong with you?
There's only one who's not respectful. There's some bite between posters now and then, but this guy is really becoming unglued.xfrodobagginsx said:
In spite of our differences, let's please keep it respectful. No two believers are going to agree on everything if they are sincere in their faith.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:There's only one who's not respectful. There's some bite between posters now and then, but this guy is really becoming unglued.xfrodobagginsx said:
In spite of our differences, let's please keep it respectful. No two believers are going to agree on everything if they are sincere in their faith.
Yes, believers will disagree, but that doesn't mean wrong beliefs and practices shouldn't be called out. And don't assume everyone here is a believer. There are wolves among sheep. The unglued person here is on record in this thread for saying that a church should allow people to place their salvation in the hands of someone other than Jesus, and if you disagree with that, you are being a "Pharisee". If you don't believe me, I can find the post. A true believer would never even come close to saying that, let alone think it. He's already called me a "Pharisee" tonight, so I take that as a good sign for me.
