How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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Fre3dombear
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Oldbear83 said:

I said I would revisit the thread after Sunday.

However, my sister collapsed at work Friday and we are waiting on news from the Cardiologist, so I am going to be out for a time.

It may not matter, but I did not want anyone to think I was ignoring the thread, just in case someone wondered.

Thank you.


Prayers for your sister. No worries on my account. This just a place I share ideas and check in on occasion so I have no expectations around responses. Not that your comment was directed to me necessarily
xfrodobagginsx
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Your Sister comes first. Prayers for her.
Fre3dombear
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Was reading a tome by one of the early church fathers tonight. It's amazing the problems of the first centuries were by and large no different than today. And the intellect and loquaciousness I always find quite amazing.

That said, he mentioned something that struck a chord with me as the "church" of today is so often wont to do to bend to the wims of culture and modernity as a low key way To bring more into the flock, which we faithful Christians know and recognize. There are even apparent and obvious infiltrations for intentional destruction and weakening of the church that happen regularly.

Here's what he said:

"All those who are sensible enough to face the facts, instead of engaging in obstinate debate, may not abandon true religion under pressure of the circumstances of the moment, but may adhere to it more loyally in confident expectation of eternal life"

Powerful.

And yet we leity see it and often cry out against it as the "church" attempts to twist the writings and spoken traditions that were the foundation of Christianity for all ages. Not just 2,024 years ago in the supposed interest of tolerance and bringing more into the flock.

Hate the sin, not the sinner but also don't "normalize" what we all know is sinful behavior.
xfrodobagginsx
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Happy New Year Everyone!!!
Waco1947
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Fre3dombear said:

Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

BUDOS said:

Not being as knowledgeable about the Bible as you guys, I realize the following may sound stupid, but perhaps you can help me understand how someone can sin without committing a sinful act either in thought or physical act. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I have been learning some things, especially church history and some new resources.
There is no stupid question. Don't be afraid to ask ANY sincere question. That's what this thread is supposed to be about, although lots of debate also happens here.

1Adam being the first man had the DNA of every subsequent human being inside of himself from the beginning.
2)Adam sinned before reproducing any children.
3) When Adam sinned, it changed his very nature from an innocent, sinless creature into a sinful one. It permeated every part of his being.
4) Therefore, when he had children from then on, he passed his sin nature down to every person that came after him.

Referring to Adam here:

Romans 5:12 (KJV)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The good news is that Just As Adam passed his sin nature on all men, Jesus Christ died rose again, Sacrificing Himself for our sins, so that ALL men might be saved, But only those who apply it to their lives will be saved. This is because God won't force anyone to serve Him.


1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If you read this first post, it explains this in more detail. God bless and feel free to ask me anything.
Is Adam a historical person in your understanding? What year was he created?


Yes. I haven't seen his tombstone. I don't know. Can you enlighten me? I am sorry I was trying to respond to Frodo
Waco1947 ,la
Waco1947
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I asked an earlier question about Adam and never got a response.
Is Adam a historical person? If so, what year was he born. What is your answer?
You said we share his DNA which would make a historical person. Is that a fair assessment?
Waco1947 ,la
Waco1947
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xfrodobagginsx said:

Does anyone have any New Year resolutions?
Waco1947 ,la
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Fre3dombear said:

Was reading a tome by one of the early church fathers tonight. It's amazing the problems of the first centuries were by and large no different than today. And the intellect and loquaciousness I always find quite amazing.

That said, he mentioned something that struck a chord with me as the "church" of today is so often wont to do to bend to the wims of culture and modernity as a low key way To bring more into the flock, which we faithful Christians know and recognize. There are even apparent and obvious infiltrations for intentional destruction and weakening of the church that happen regularly.

Here's what he said:

"All those who are sensible enough to face the facts, instead of engaging in obstinate debate, may not abandon true religion under pressure of the circumstances of the moment, but may adhere to it more loyally in confident expectation of eternal life"

Powerful.

And yet we leity see it and often cry out against it as the "church" attempts to twist the writings and spoken traditions that were the foundation of Christianity for all ages. Not just 2,024 years ago in the supposed interest of tolerance and bringing more into the flock.

Hate the sin, not the sinner but also don't "normalize" what we all know is sinful behavior.
Normalizing sinful behavior is exactly what Roman Catholicism has done. Even mandating them by threat of anathema.

This has been made crystal clear up to this point. If people can't see this by now, they have absolutely no discernment whatsoever.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

I asked an earlier question about Adam and never got a response.
Is Adam a historical person? If so, what year was he born. What is your answer?
You said we share his DNA which would make a historical person. Is that a fair assessment?
Was there ever an actual first human being? We couldn't have existed for an eternity, right?
BusyTarpDuster2017
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What you're about to read is from The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary, written by Saint Bonaventure, a 13th century bishop and leading theologian of his time. This is a collection of psalms where Bonaventure took the Psalms of the Old Testament, and inserted Mary, even replacing God/Jesus in certain passages. Just right off the bat, if you can't see the blatant sin of heresy and idolatry in that, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. If this itself doesn't raise all kinds of red flags, then there is something very, very wrong with your claim to being a "Christian". But, to continue:

Here is the first psalm:
Quote:

"Blessed is the man that cherishes thy name, Virgin Mary, thy grace will strengthen his soul.

As a garden watered by springs of living water, thou wilt multiply in that soul the sweetest fruits of justice.

Thou art blessed among all women, because of the humble faith of thy holy heart.

For thou art exalted above all women by the beauty of thy person; thou surpassest the angels and the archangels by the excellence of thy sanctity.

Thy mercy and thy grace are celebrated everywhere; God has blessed the works of thy hands.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, now and always, and from generation to generation. Amen."
Compare this first psalm to Psalm 1 of the Bible, which starts "Blessed is the man, who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked...."

These psalms by Bonaventure are a clear indicator of the Roman Catholic Church's excessive exaltation of Mary, even raising her to the level of the divine. Her "grace" can strengthen souls?? She can "multiply the fruits of justice" in souls? Her "mercy"? What position is she in, that grace and mercy is hers to give? Who gives them but God? What are the "works of her hands"? The Bible celebrates the works of GOD'S hands, not hers. If you can't see that this is excessive to the point of idolatry, then you simply have ZERO discernment. Or, you really aren't a Christian. It's just that simple and obvious.

Note that Bonaventure was canonized as a saint by Pope Sixtus IV in 1482, and was declared a "doctor" of the Roman Catholic Church, one of their highest honors, in 1587 by Pope Sixtus V. These psalms were declared to be "Imprimatur" and "Nihil Obstat", which is a declaration that the writing is fully sanctioned and promoted by the Roman Catholic Church, being completely free from any error with regard to Catholic teaching, faith, and morals. Clearly, these psalms aren't just a one-off of Roman Catholicism or a set of obscure beliefs by some unknown author that nobody pays attention to. They are a clear representation of central Catholic beliefs.
Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

I asked an earlier question about Adam and never got a response.
Is Adam a historical person? If so, what year was he born. What is your answer?
You said we share his DNA which would make a historical person. Is that a fair assessment?
Was there ever an actual first human being? We couldn't have existed for an eternity, right?
I was asking Frodo
Waco1947 ,la
Fre3dombear
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Came across another church father quote today that piqued my curiosity in the context of this thread:

"He can drop the silly pose of superiority and take the opportunity to raise what objection he likes, as one truly interested in getting to know; he can ask his questions in a spirit of friendly discussion, and listen when those who he consults do their best to give a courteous, thoughtful, serious and frank reply"

Written 1600 years ago
xfrodobagginsx
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Waco1947 said:

I asked an earlier question about Adam and never got a response.
Is Adam a historical person? If so, what year was he born. What is your answer?
You said we share his DNA which would make a historical person. Is that a fair assessment?


Yes Adam is a real, historical person recorded in the Bible. The best estimates are around 4004 BC. The Jewish calender is a great help when determining the date. ALL men came from the first two created humans, Adam & Eve. Later, when God destroyed the world,
it started again with 3 families. There are actual genetic tests that can trace all people back to 3 families 4500 years ago to the time of Noah & his three Sons.
xfrodobagginsx
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It's got to be from the heart and yes God can see right into your heart.





Romans 10:9 NKJV

[9] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.





[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

BUDOS
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After reading your response, it explains a lot, which I appreciate; additionally I tend to agree with just about every aspect of your post. Thank you for your response. (Your past post is below

"If you can wade through the morass and noise I was laying those points out point by point. It's apparently a very hot button issue for some. But there is a very logical explanation.

It's also not dissimilar from John 6:53 which is the foundation of the Catholic Church and speaks clearly to the notion of transubstanciacion and leads some Protestants to call Catholics cannibals.

These are concepts that go back to 1) the direct Greek that forms the Bible and 2) the early church fathers writings of the understandings of those that walked with Jesus, were at the last supper for example, and continued the weekly tradition Catholics across the globe perform at Jesus' direction

Of course anyone can say "that's nonsense" or "what rubbish" but my intention in even engaging in this discourse here was to discuss why these are the beliefs

One can still say "hmmm yeah I don't believe that" but it doesn't change the fact those are the reasons they are the beliefs and then kne has to decide for their eternal soul what they consider on various topics, some of which may or may not have direct implications thereof.

So if one says for example, communion is just bread, well that's not what the Greek says about the holy ceremony Jesus performed and what he asked us to do. So it would suggest one doesn't believe in transubtanciation, which could be a problem for those that don't.

I think someone also said Mary isn't the mother of God which is also an interesting perspective as Jesus is God and Mary is Jesus' mother and presumably his genetic mother (although if someone says the words DNY or chromosomes aren't in the Bible, I'll concede to my knowledge that is true but then I'd ask it to be proven she is not his genetic mother which to me would be harder than proving she is.

So yes the posts I've made have been concentrated on 2/3 specific topics thus far which I'm much more interested in discussing intellectually here and mainly elsewhere anyway vs playing legalistic gotcha attempts which I'm not going to engage in at all even if they don't even make any logical sense, which I've already completely bowed out of."
2 edits .
BUDOS
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Scientific evidence or Bible scholar research?
Not asking to argue, but would like to know before I share with my Bible class.
xfrodobagginsx
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BUDOS said:

Scientific evidence or Bible scholar research?
Not asking to argue, but would like to know before I share with my Bible class.
Answers in Genesis researcher: Y chromosome analysis traces all humanity back to Noah's sons

https://christianindex.org/stories/answers-in-genesis-researcher-y-chromosome-traces-all-humanity-back-to-noahs-sons,20966

Are We Really That Different?

https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/human-genome/are-we-really-different/

xfrodobagginsx
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Written by those who walked with Jesus and saw Him after the Resurrection:

2 Peter 1:21 (KJV)
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Jesus Said:

Luke 24:25 (KJV)
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
xfrodobagginsx
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Those links have answers to many questions. Check them out!
Waco1947
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xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:

I asked an earlier question about Adam and never got a response.
Is Adam a historical person? If so, what year was he born. What is your answer?
You said we share his DNA which would make a historical person. Is that a fair assessment?


Yes Adam is a real, historical person recorded in the Bible. The best estimates are around 4004 BC. The Jewish calendar is a great help when determining the date. ALL men came from the first two created humans, Adam & Eve. Later, when God destroyed the world,
it started again with 3 families. There are actual genetic tests that can trace all people back to 3 families 4500 years ago to the time of Noah & his three Sons.
First thank you for your response. So, in your understanding the world/universe is 6,000 years old? Where did your find the source for these DNA records?
Waco1947 ,la
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Fre3dombear said:

Came across another church father quote today that piqued my curiosity in the context of this thread:

"He can drop the silly pose of superiority and take the opportunity to raise what objection he likes, as one truly interested in getting to know; he can ask his questions in a spirit of friendly discussion, and listen when those who he consults do their best to give a courteous, thoughtful, serious and frank reply"

Written 1600 years ago
There is a continual attempt to invalidate the truth of what I'm saying by attacking what you perceive my attitude to be.

This signifies that your position is very weak, and you have no argument against mine. I really hope that you guys see this.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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BUDOS said:

After reading your response, it explains a lot, which I appreciate; additionally I tend to agree with just about every aspect of your post. Thank you for your response. (Your past post is below

"If you can wade through the morass and noise I was laying those points out point by point. It's apparently a very hot button issue for some. But there is a very logical explanation.

It's also not dissimilar from John 6:53 which is the foundation of the Catholic Church and speaks clearly to the notion of transubstanciacion and leads some Protestants to call Catholics cannibals.

These are concepts that go back to 1) the direct Greek that forms the Bible and 2) the early church fathers writings of the understandings of those that walked with Jesus, were at the last supper for example, and continued the weekly tradition Catholics across the globe perform at Jesus' direction

Of course anyone can say "that's nonsense" or "what rubbish" but my intention in even engaging in this discourse here was to discuss why these are the beliefs

One can still say "hmmm yeah I don't believe that" but it doesn't change the fact those are the reasons they are the beliefs and then kne has to decide for their eternal soul what they consider on various topics, some of which may or may not have direct implications thereof.

So if one says for example, communion is just bread, well that's not what the Greek says about the holy ceremony Jesus performed and what he asked us to do. So it would suggest one doesn't believe in transubtanciation, which could be a problem for those that don't.

I think someone also said Mary isn't the mother of God which is also an interesting perspective as Jesus is God and Mary is Jesus' mother and presumably his genetic mother (although if someone says the words DNY or chromosomes aren't in the Bible, I'll concede to my knowledge that is true but then I'd ask it to be proven she is not his genetic mother which to me would be harder than proving she is.

So yes the posts I've made have been concentrated on 2/3 specific topics thus far which I'm much more interested in discussing intellectually here and mainly elsewhere anyway vs playing legalistic gotcha attempts which I'm not going to engage in at all even if they don't even make any logical sense, which I've already completely bowed out of."
2 edits .
"I'm much more interested in discussing intellectually here and mainly elsewhere anyway vs playing legalistic gotcha attempts which I'm not going to engage in at all even if they don't even make any logical sense, which I've already completely bowed out of."

Translation: "I have no valid argument against his points, so I'm going to call it a "legalistic gotcha attempt" and say that it "don't make any logical sense" in an attempt to marginalize them, so that I don't have to deal with them"

So, you agree with all of his points. Okay, then, please cite which points I've made "don't make logical sense" or are just "legalistic gotcha attempts". And take any of the points he lists in his comment, and tell me why you think it's correct. What does John 6:53 have to do with Catholic theology like transsubstantiation (which he claimed I believed, which is strange because HE's defending Roman Catholicism and he KNEW I was arguing against them)? How does the Greek language prove his points about communion? How does the greek perfect passive participle of "to be graced" prove Mary was sinless?

So many questions, so little answers.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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What you're about to read is from The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary, written by Saint Bonaventure, a 13th century bishop and leading theologian of his time. This is a collection of psalms where Bonaventure took the Psalms of the Old Testament, and inserted Mary, even replacing God/Jesus in certain passages. Just right off the bat, if you can't see the blatant sin of heresy and idolatry in that, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. If this itself doesn't raise all kinds of red flags, then there is something very, very wrong with your claim to being a "Christian". But, to continue:

Here is the first psalm:
Quote:

Quote:
"Blessed is the man that cherishes thy name, Virgin Mary, thy grace will strengthen his soul.

As a garden watered by springs of living water, thou wilt multiply in that soul the sweetest fruits of justice.

Thou art blessed among all women, because of the humble faith of thy holy heart.

For thou art exalted above all women by the beauty of thy person; thou surpassest the angels and the archangels by the excellence of thy sanctity.

Thy mercy and thy grace are celebrated everywhere; God has blessed the works of thy hands.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, now and always, and from generation to generation. Amen."
Compare this first psalm to Psalm 1 of the Bible, which starts "Blessed is the man, who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked...."

These psalms by Bonaventure are a clear indicator of the Roman Catholic Church's excessive exaltation of Mary, even raising her to the level of the divine. Her "grace" can strengthen souls?? She can "multiply the fruits of justice" in souls? Her "mercy"? What position is she in, that grace and mercy is hers to give? Who gives them but God? What are the "works of her hands"? The Bible celebrates the works of GOD'S hands, not hers. If you can't see that this is excessive to the point of idolatry, then you simply have ZERO discernment. Or, you really aren't a Christian. It's just that simple and obvious.

Note that Bonaventure was canonized as a saint by Pope Sixtus IV in 1482, and was declared a "doctor" of the Roman Catholic Church, one of their highest honors, in 1587 by Pope Sixtus V. These psalms were declared to be "Imprimatur" and "Nihil Obstat", which is a declaration that the writing is fully sanctioned and promoted by the Roman Catholic Church, being completely free from any error with regard to Catholic teaching, faith, and morals. Clearly, these psalms aren't just a one-off of Roman Catholicism or a set of obscure beliefs by some unknown author that nobody pays attention to. They are a clear representation of central Catholic beliefs.
Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

What you're about to read is from The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary, written by Saint Bonaventure, a 13th century bishop and leading theologian of his time. This is a collection of psalms where Bonaventure took the Psalms of the Old Testament, and inserted Mary, even replacing God/Jesus in certain passages. Just right off the bat, if you can't see the blatant sin of heresy and idolatry in that, then you have absolutely no discernment whatsoever. If this itself doesn't raise all kinds of red flags, then there is something very, very wrong with your claim to being a "Christian". But, to continue:

Here is the first psalm:
Quote:

Quote:
"Blessed is the man that cherishes thy name, Virgin Mary, thy grace will strengthen his soul.

As a garden watered by springs of living water, thou wilt multiply in that soul the sweetest fruits of justice.

Thou art blessed among all women, because of the humble faith of thy holy heart.

For thou art exalted above all women by the beauty of thy person; thou surpassest the angels and the archangels by the excellence of thy sanctity.

Thy mercy and thy grace are celebrated everywhere; God has blessed the works of thy hands.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, now and always, and from generation to generation. Amen."
Compare this first psalm to Psalm 1 of the Bible, which starts "Blessed is the man, who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked...."

These psalms by Bonaventure are a clear indicator of the Roman Catholic Church's excessive exaltation of Mary, even raising her to the level of the divine. Her "grace" can strengthen souls?? She can "multiply the fruits of justice" in souls? Her "mercy"? What position is she in, that grace and mercy is hers to give? Who gives them but God? What are the "works of her hands"? The Bible celebrates the works of GOD'S hands, not hers. If you can't see that this is excessive to the point of idolatry, then you simply have ZERO discernment. Or, you really aren't a Christian. It's just that simple and obvious.

Note that Bonaventure was canonized as a saint by Pope Sixtus IV in 1482, and was declared a "doctor" of the Roman Catholic Church, one of their highest honors, in 1587 by Pope Sixtus V. These psalms were declared to be "Imprimatur" and "Nihil Obstat", which is a declaration that the writing is fully sanctioned and promoted by the Roman Catholic Church, being completely free from any error with regard to Catholic teaching, faith, and morals. Clearly, these psalms aren't just a one-off of Roman Catholicism or a set of obscure beliefs by some unknown author that nobody pays attention to. They are a clear representation of central Catholic beliefs.

Geez, you know your stuff. How so? Degree in church history?
Waco1947 ,la
xfrodobagginsx
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My faith is not based on Evidence, Science, Ect. But it is nice to know that it is backed up by the Evidence, Science, Ect. This type of thread is good because first of all, it does give the Biblical plan of Salvation in the first post, but it also addresses questions and discussions on various topics pertaining to the Bible and the Faith of Jesus Christ. I have had real, tangible experiences with Jesus Christ and have no doubt that He is real and that He is the God of the Universe. My goal is to help others come to Faith in Him and believe that He died and rose again as the Sacrifice for their sins.
xfrodobagginsx
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Did you read the first post? Are you a born again believer?
BUDOS
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Ditto (well done and well said).
xfrodobagginsx
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BUDOS said:

Ditto (well done and well said).
Thank you! God bless.
Oldbear83
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Hello all.

I'm back, but will be slow to re-engage, it's been a rough week.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
xfrodobagginsx
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Oldbear83 said:

Hello all.

I'm back, but will be slow to re-engage, it's been a rough week.
I am glad to have you back and am thankful for your willingness to discuss this topic. I am sorry that you are having a rough week. This Christmas season was rough for me also. I got sick the entire week of Christmas and then sick again on New Year's Eve. It seems that every time I get time off of work, I get sick. I guess it's better than being sick and having to work.
xfrodobagginsx
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Tomorrow is Sunday. Start off the New Year by attending a good, Bible Believing Church.
xfrodobagginsx
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I was just called a Literalist in another site. A Literalist means that I actually believe the Word of God rather than trying to change the meaning into what I want it to mean. I am not God, I can't change His Word. I must abide by what He says rather than trying to make up my own beliefs. That is the way of Cain and we know how Cain ended up in the Bible isn't it? He wouldn't believe God. True Faith actually believes God when He tells you something. The Bible is God's perfect Word.
Fre3dombear
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xfrodobagginsx said:

I was just called a Literalist in another site. A Literalist means that I actually believe the Word of God rather than trying to change the meaning into what I want it to mean. I am not God, I can't change His Word. I must abide by what He says rather than trying to make up my own beliefs. That is the way of Cain and we know how Cain ended up in the Bible isn't it? He wouldn't believe God. Truth Faith actually believes God when He tells you something. The Bible is God's perfect Word.


Yep. God don't change his word. As art Briles would say, Word don't lie (or something like that)
xfrodobagginsx
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Jesus quoted the Bible as authoritative from God. Peter said it was the Word of God. Paul said it was the Word of God.

Jesus

Luke 24:25

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:


Peter

2 Peter 1:21

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Paul

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
xfrodobagginsx
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Please take the time to read this first post and vote if you haven't yet.
 
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