Here Is Something I Wrote Several Years Ago, To Prove That Jesus Christ Is God:

THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD & GOD IS 3 IN 1

There are some religions out there that believe and teach that Jesus Christ is not God. Some teach that He is a god, but not thee God. I am going to demonstrate through the word of God that He is God and created all things.

Jesus's name "Immanuel" LITERALLY means "God with us"

Mt 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Jesus is The Great God & Our Savior

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


He always existed (from everlasting):

Mic 5:2 (NKJV) "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, [Though] you are little among the thousands of Judah, [Yet] out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth [are] from of old, From everlasting."

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)

This prophecy is of Christ's first comming. His Goings forth have been from everlasting because Christ Jesus is God.

Jesus Christ is one with the Father.

Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one God:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Jesus Christ is one with the Father:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

Believers are to be Baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations}
(KJV)

The Trinity Present At Christ's Baptism:

Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jesus declares Himself to be the great I AM of the Old Testiment. I AM is God's Name

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I am IS God. There is only one God. That God has three parts.

Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

His Disciple/Apostle Peter Admits that Jesus knows "All things" (Only God knows all things)

Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

The Bible calls Jesus Christ The Great God and our Savior:

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Knows Our Thoughts

Mt 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

Lu 11:17 But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.

In Him Dwells all of the fullness of the Godhead Bodily:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. {rudiments: or, elements} {make a prey: or, seduce you, or, lead you astray} For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: {his...: Gr. the Son of his love}
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

He is the image of the invisible God. All things were created by Him:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {in...: or, among all} 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


God's plurality is found in Genesis

Ge 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

His Disciple/Apostle Thomas Confessed Him to be God and Jesus did NOT rebuke Him for it:

Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

This verse demonstrates how God has multiple aspects. He said Let "US" make man in "OUR" image. He didn't say, let me make man in My image, He said let US make man is OUR image.

His Apostle/Disciple John declares Christ Jesus to be God:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

His Apostle/Disciple John declares that the world was made by Him (Jesus Christ)

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

All things were made by Him and He was in the beginning with God (Father)

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

There are MANY places where He is worshipped and Jesus NEVER tells them not to worship Him, NOT once. Only God is to be worshipped, because Jesus IS God, Jesus IS worshipped:

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. {presented: or, offered}
Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mt 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. {worshipped him: or, besought him}
Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mr 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Ac 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Scripture refers to Him as the Lord, Jesus Christ. The phrase "The Lord" is unique only to God:

Here are a few mentioning "The Lord Your God"

De 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. {bondage: Heb. servants}

De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

De 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

De 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


Here are many calling Him Jesus Christ, The Lord.

Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ac 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Ro 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. <<The second [epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.]>>

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: {conversation...: or, we live or conduct ourselves as citizens of heaven, or, for obtaining heaven}

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Trinity (Three in one)

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Father, Son and Spirit Present at Christ's Baptism:

Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Conclusion: Jesus Christ is God. Not a God but the God of the bible. God has three personalities. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are equal, yet the Son is submissive to the Father and the Holy Spirit is submissive to the Son. Jesus Christ was an EXAMPLE for us. He died on the cross for our sins so that we could go to heaven and be forgiven of our sins. He shed His blood for us.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear, I want to start by emphasizing I write in goodwill, as to a brother who is taking a terrible risk and yet he denies the danger.

The plain fact of Mary's status is that she pleased the Lord, and so was blessed.

This is a wonderful condition for a person, and one many of us would hope for ourselves.

Yet Scripture is plain that Mary was not sinless, was not holy as God is holy, and was never referenced as an intercessor for us.

THAT role belongs exclusively to Christ.

Now, regarding Luke 1, I am sorry to be blunt but Luke absolutely does NOT promote Mary to superhuman status.

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I appreciate your goodwill and extend it from my behalf as well. I would ask that you would try to look at this with neutral eyes and not established protestant eyes.
Please show me a passage where it says that Mary committed a sin.
("All have sinned and fallen short of the glory." If one says "ALL" means "ALL", then one has to include Jesus. You also have to include babies, but they have never sinned. So "ALL" doesn't mean "ALL." Paul was speaking in generalizations. Please show me where Mary sinned.

Please show me where I stated that Mary is as "holy as God".

If James 5:16 instructs us to pray for one another, then aren't we all intercessors? When I pray for you, (as I do twice a day morning rosary and evening prayers) aren't I acting as an intercessor?

Please explain what you mean by "superhuman" and where I have stated she isas much.

Let's use specific language and mutually agreed upon definitions so that we don't use strawmen in our arguments.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Can we pray to the risen Jesus or the Holy Spirit? The bible never says that we can or should. Do we? Yes, of course."

Mister, I genuinely hope you were just being intellectually lazy, and not deliberately claiming Mary is the same as Christ or the The Holy Spirit. That would indeed be blasphemous!

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I should have clarified my point better which was/is that the Bible never states that we should pray to the risen Jesus or the HS, but we do. My point is that the bible is NOT going to tell us everything to do and not to do.

I was NOT trying to equal Mary to the Trinity.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Does the bible say that others should pray for others? Yes, it's clear in James 5:16. Why would James say to pray for one another if "Christ is our complete and sufficient intercessor"?"

There is a huge difference between asking the Lord to help someone, and praying to Mary to speak to God on your behalf, treating her as an intermediary to God, which definitely would be stealing Christ's role from Him.

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Please step back for a moment and contemplate the following … If I ask you to pray for me, would that "definitely would be stealing Christ's role from Him"?

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Other than many years of protestant bias, I can't understand why someone would believe that is just an ordinary woman. Yes, she is just a woman, but she is quite extraordinary. Out of all the 50+ billion women to walk the earth, God choose her to be the mother of his only son. She risked her life to bring him into the world. She traveled several days to Egypt to protect him from death."

First, check yourself. I never said Mary was ordinary, but have always shown her respect and appreciation for what she did. But with that said, Scripture makes plain that Mary was mentioned very few times, and at least twice she was shown to be in error in her beliefs.

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Apologies. I should have been more specific about saying that many protestants treat her as ordinary. You have stated several times here that you do respect her for what she is. Apologies again.

Please state what errors she made in her beliefs and how they are sins. If your are referring to "thought that he was with the others who were traveling with them", then explain how that's a sin to make an error. If you miss a question on a test, that not a sin, it's an error.

Oldbear83 said:

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When the Book of Revelation speaks of the 24 Elders seated in thrones around God, Mary is not among them.

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Let's think about scripture here… Who do the 24 elders represent? The 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles. They are taking bowls of incense to the altar. What's in these bowls? They prayer of the saints (those of us on earth.) They are bringing our petitions to God. They are interceding for us.

Oldbear83 said:

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When Jesus spoke with Moses and Elihjah at the Transfiguration, Mary was not there.

When Jesus helped Peter to walk on water, Mary was not there.

When Jesus rose from the dead, the first person to see Him risen was Mary ... but not Mary the Mother of Jesus.

And so on.

None of this is to disrespect Mary, but exaggerating her as you do is very wrong.

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My point wasn't to say that Mary was at EVERY critical point in the Jesus' life. It was stating that God chose her out of all the billions of women that walked the earth to be his mother. The most perfect woman ever.

One last event that I omitted (maybe by divine providence) Mary was with Jesus at the Wedding Feast of Cana. What did she do? She interceded for the newlyweds and asked Jesus to help with the wine. She obeyed her son, and he performed his first public miracle and he began his ministry.

She has been and is still interceding for us.

Finally, given the biblical data that I presented to you, it is "exaggerating" to call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? If so, why?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"Martin Luther believed it" - So?? Protestantism isn't Lutherism. And contrary to what you may believe, I'm not trying to defend Protestantism. I don't care for labels. Don't consider me a "protestant". I'm just a bible believing Christian who is defending biblical truth, accurate history, and good logic and reason. A person stuck on an island who finds a bible floating in the ocean, who reads it and believes in Jesus and puts his faith in him for his salvation is a Christian, is part of the body of Christ, and is saved. No "protestant" or "catholic" label to his name. No water baptism. No communion. I can say that he's a brother in Christ and is saved. You as a Roman Catholic can't. That's the problem right there. Roman Catholicism doesn't have the true Gospel.

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Once again, you are myopically speaking about the exception and not the rule. I have many times spoke about the ORDINARY means for salvation. God know whats on the hearts of men. He can even redeem those who hearts are aligned with Him even though they never heard of Jesus. This is VERY clear in the Catechism. It is all done through the saving work of Jesus.

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This is the perfect example of Roman Catholic "double talk" - Roman Catholicism says it is necessary to be water baptized and take part in the sacraments in order to be saved.... but also says it is not necessary.

Having both an "ordinary" means of salvation, but also have exceptions, does not fit a God of justice. If one person is saved even though they did not get water baptized, but another is condemned to Hell because they did not get water baptized, then God is inconsistent and unjust.

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How is the 14th century Native America saved? He's never said the sinner's prayer, He's never done an altar call. He's never accepted Jesus as his personal savior. He's never heard of the Triune God.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"Martin Luther believed it" - So?? Protestantism isn't Lutherism. And contrary to what you may believe, I'm not trying to defend Protestantism. I don't care for labels. Don't consider me a "protestant". I'm just a bible believing Christian who is defending biblical truth, accurate history, and good logic and reason. A person stuck on an island who finds a bible floating in the ocean, who reads it and believes in Jesus and puts his faith in him for his salvation is a Christian, is part of the body of Christ, and is saved. No "protestant" or "catholic" label to his name. No water baptism. No communion. I can say that he's a brother in Christ and is saved. You as a Roman Catholic can't. That's the problem right there. Roman Catholicism doesn't have the true Gospel.

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Once again, you are myopically speaking about the exception and not the rule. I have many times spoke about the ORDINARY means for salvation. God know whats on the hearts of men. He can even redeem those who hearts are aligned with Him even though they never heard of Jesus. This is VERY clear in the Catechism. It is all done through the saving work of Jesus.

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This is the perfect example of Roman Catholic "double talk" - Roman Catholicism says it is necessary to be water baptized and take part in the sacraments in order to be saved.... but also says it is not necessary.

Having both an "ordinary" means of salvation, but also have exceptions, does not fit a God of justice. If one person is saved even though they did not get water baptized, but another is condemned to Hell because they did not get water baptized, then God is inconsistent and unjust.

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How is the 14th century Native America saved? He's never said the sinner's prayer, He's never done an altar call. He's never accepted Jesus as his personal savior. He's never heard of the Triune God.

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First of all, answering altar calls or believing in the Trinity are not requirements for salvation. Believing in Jesus and putting your faith in him for your salvation, is. "Accepting Jesus as one's personal savior" is just the modern way of saying that.

Regarding the person who's never heard of Jesus - it is and always will be a tough question. Whatever God does, it will be perfectly fair and just. I don't know what happens to them, and neither do you, so you shouldn't presume anything. It seems fair to us for God to judge those who've never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel based on how they've responded to God's revelation via nature, morals, etc.

But the question for you is this: if that is the case, then why the Great Commission? Why did Jesus' apostles have to give their lives spreading the Gospel to every nation? Why evangelize the world even today, which often comes at great cost? Why not just have God save those who are "aligned" with Him, instead of risking the possibility that they'll hear the Gospel and reject it?

Coke Bear said:

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How is the 14th century Native America saved? He's never said the sinner's prayer, He's never done an altar call. He's never accepted Jesus as his personal savior. He's never heard of the Triune God.

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"14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Romans 2:14-16.

This would fall into the "there is a God, and I am not Him" category. As far as the Great Commission, it is better to study for a test than to count on a curve to save you.

Realitybites said:

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Coke Bear said:

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How is the 14th century Native America saved? He's never said the sinner's prayer, He's never done an altar call. He's never accepted Jesus as his personal savior. He's never heard of the Triune God.

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"14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Romans 2:14-16.

This would fall into the "there is a God, and I am not Him" category. As far as the Great Commission, it is better to study for a test than to count on a curve to save you.

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But if you're already making the grade without the test, then why study for it?

Just read what you posted about 10 last night and would like to share and use it with my Bible class for a few weeks if you are okay with that.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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But if you're already making the grade without the test, then why study for it?

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The point is we don't really know how God judges someone who has never so much as heard of Christ. We have a hint from those passages of Romans.

We do know for a fact that those who follow Christ and become disciples are saved while those who reject Him and refuse to follow Him are lost. I find this terminology far more consistent with the Holy Scriptures and Church history than "accept Jesus as your personal savior." In fact, I've gotten to the point where I find this unbiblical framework to be substandard.

Quote:

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But the question for you is this: if that is the case, then why the Great Commission? Why did Jesus' apostles have to give their lives spreading the Gospel to every nation? Why evangelize the world even today, which often comes at great cost? Why not just have God save those who are "aligned" with Him, instead of risking the possibility that they'll hear the Gospel and reject it?

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Because Jesus said so. It isn't so important that we understand the why of what we are supposed to do, but rather that we do what we are supposed to do.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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God has three personalities.

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The Trinity is God in three persons, not personalities.

"We believe in one God, the Father, Ruler of all, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all time; Light, from Light, true God from true God; begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father, through Whom all things were made;...

...And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who is worshiped and glorified together with the Father and Son, and Who spoke through the Prophets."

(Excerpted from the Nicene Creed, 381 A.D.).

Coke Bear said:

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Was Mary the mother of Jesus? Yes.
Is Jesus God? Yes.
Wouldn't that make Mary the Mother of God?

To deny this would the same as the Nestorian heresy resolved in the Council of Ephesus, held in 431 AD.

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I think this is a linguistic issue that arises from informal references to the Trinity in English as God [the Father], Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The hearer then subconsciously inserts "the Father" after the term Mother of God and the car alarm goes off. That's why I find the Greek title of Theotokos to be much more precise.

Should we be a bit cautious when using our human reason and interpretation of such events ? Not against discussing it, just think we should remember we are limited in our understanding of these things.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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But if you're already making the grade without the test, then why study for it?

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The point is we don't really know how God judges someone who has never so much as heard of Christ. We have a hint from those passages of Romans.

We do know for a fact that those who follow Christ and become disciples are saved while those who reject Him and refuse to follow Him are lost. I find this terminology far more consistent with the Holy Scriptures and Church history than "accept Jesus as your personal savior." In fact, I've gotten to the point where I find this unbiblical framework to be substandard.

Quote:

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But the question for you is this: if that is the case, then why the Great Commission? Why did Jesus' apostles have to give their lives spreading the Gospel to every nation? Why evangelize the world even today, which often comes at great cost? Why not just have God save those who are "aligned" with Him, instead of risking the possibility that they'll hear the Gospel and reject it?

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Because Jesus said so. It isn't so important that we understand the why of what we are supposed to do, but rather that we do what we are supposed to do.

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I already made the point that we don't know what God will do with those who never heard of Jesus.

If "accepting Jesus as your personal savior" means believing in him and putting your faith in him for your salvation, then what exactly makes that "unbiblical"? And if you are concerned about being consistent with Holy Scriptures and church history, then shouldn't you abandon praying to saints and venerating icons?

Even if we are to perform the Great Commission because Jesus said so, still, it is a fair question to ask why it is necessary for people to be persecuted, tortured, and killed for doing it, if God could save people without it.

Realitybites said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Was Mary the mother of Jesus? Yes.
Is Jesus God? Yes.
Wouldn't that make Mary the Mother of God?

To deny this would the same as the Nestorian heresy resolved in the Council of Ephesus, held in 431 AD.

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I think this is a linguistic issue that arises from informal references to the Trinity in English as God [the Father], Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The hearer then subconsciously inserts "the Father" after the term Mother of God and the car alarm goes off. That's why I find the Greek title of Theotokos to be much more precise.

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Theotokos, or "God-bearer", isn't any more precise. Is God made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Yes. Is Mary the bearer of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? No. Therefore, Mary isn't the God-bearer.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Here Is Something I Wrote Several Years Ago, To Prove That Jesus Christ Is God:

THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD & GOD IS 3 IN 1

There are some religions out there that believe and teach that Jesus Christ is not God. Some teach that He is a god, but not thee God. I am going to demonstrate through the word of God that He is God and created all things.

Jesus's name "Immanuel" LITERALLY means "God with us"

Mt 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Jesus is The Great God & Our Savior

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


He always existed (from everlasting):

Mic 5:2 (NKJV) "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, [Though] you are little among the thousands of Judah, [Yet] out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth [are] from of old, From everlasting."

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)

This prophecy is of Christ's first comming. His Goings forth have been from everlasting because Christ Jesus is God.

Jesus Christ is one with the Father.

Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one God:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Jesus Christ is one with the Father:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)

Believers are to be Baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations}
(KJV)

The Trinity Present At Christ's Baptism:

Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jesus declares Himself to be the great I AM of the Old Testiment. I AM is God's Name

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I am IS God. There is only one God. That God has three parts.

Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

His Disciple/Apostle Peter Admits that Jesus knows "All things" (Only God knows all things)

Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

The Bible calls Jesus Christ The Great God and our Savior:

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Knows Our Thoughts

Mt 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

Lu 11:17 But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.

In Him Dwells all of the fullness of the Godhead Bodily:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. {rudiments: or, elements} {make a prey: or, seduce you, or, lead you astray} For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: {his...: Gr. the Son of his love}
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

He is the image of the invisible God. All things were created by Him:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {in...: or, among all} 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


God's plurality is found in Genesis

Ge 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

His Disciple/Apostle Thomas Confessed Him to be God and Jesus did NOT rebuke Him for it:

Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

This verse demonstrates how God has multiple aspects. He said Let "US" make man in "OUR" image. He didn't say, let me make man in My image, He said let US make man is OUR image.

His Apostle/Disciple John declares Christ Jesus to be God:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

His Apostle/Disciple John declares that the world was made by Him (Jesus Christ)

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

All things were made by Him and He was in the beginning with God (Father)

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

There are MANY places where He is worshipped and Jesus NEVER tells them not to worship Him, NOT once. Only God is to be worshipped, because Jesus IS God, Jesus IS worshipped:

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. {presented: or, offered}
Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mt 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. {worshipped him: or, besought him}
Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mr 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Ac 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Scripture refers to Him as the Lord, Jesus Christ. The phrase "The Lord" is unique only to God:

Here are a few mentioning "The Lord Your God"

De 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. {bondage: Heb. servants}

De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

De 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

De 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


Here are many calling Him Jesus Christ, The Lord.

Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ac 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Ro 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. <<The second [epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.]>>

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: {conversation...: or, we live or conduct ourselves as citizens of heaven, or, for obtaining heaven}

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Trinity (Three in one)

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Father, Son and Spirit Present at Christ's Baptism:

Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Conclusion: Jesus Christ is God. Not a God but the God of the bible. God has three personalities. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are equal, yet the Son is submissive to the Father and the Holy Spirit is submissive to the Son. Jesus Christ was an EXAMPLE for us. He died on the cross for our sins so that we could go to heaven and be forgiven of our sins. He shed His blood for us.

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Excellent exposition. Although I'm not sure that 1 John 5:7 actually says "Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost".

It clearly shows that a Church council wasn't needed to define the Father and Son as being the same. Scripture already shouts it.

Quote:

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Oldbear83 said:
Coke Bear, I want to start by emphasizing I write in goodwill, as to a brother who is taking a terrible risk and yet he denies the danger.

The plain fact of Mary's status is that she pleased the Lord, and so was blessed.

This is a wonderful condition for a person, and one many of us would hope for ourselves.

Yet Scripture is plain that Mary was not sinless, was not holy as God is holy, and was never referenced as an intercessor for us.

THAT role belongs exclusively to Christ.

Now, regarding Luke 1, I am sorry to be blunt but Luke absolutely does NOT promote Mary to superhuman status.

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Coke Bear: "I appreciate your goodwill and extend it from my behalf as well. I would ask that you would try to look at this with neutral eyes and not established protestant eyes."

No. After all, you have a clear opinion you consider correct which I consider to be biased error. It's also a hint of an insult to imply that 'protestant eyes' means not based on reason. I have tried not to accuse you of being dishonest as an RC, please do not play such games here.

Coke Bear: "Please show me a passage where it says that Mary committed a sin.
("All have sinned and fallen short of the glory." If one says "ALL" means "ALL", then one has to include Jesus. You also have to include babies, but they have never sinned. So "ALL" doesn't mean "ALL." Paul was speaking in generalizations. Please show me where Mary sinned."

Sorry but that verse proves my point. That's because basic grammar makes clear that Christ as the Redeemer is separate from the rest of Humanity; that verse makes clear that every last one of us needs Christ's help.

To help see what I mean, consider if you hear on the news that when police arrived at the scene, 'everyone was fighting'. That would not mean that the Police were brawling from the moment they arrived, but would explain why the response by law enforcement had to be immediate. Or if someone said 'no one in the class understood the material', that would not include the teacher who was explaining the material, it refers collectively to the students.

Sorry but that verse as written means Mary was in the same boat as everyone else.



Coke Bear: "Please show me where I stated that Mary is as "holy as God".

You implied it by trying to change her status from 'blameless' to 'sinless', and to add her to the conversation when we talk to God. We've been all over that.


Coke Bear: "If James 5:16 instructs us to pray for one another, then aren't we all intercessors? When I pray for you, (as I do twice a day morning rosary and evening prayers) aren't I acting as an intercessor?"

There is a very large and important difference between asking God to help someone when you are praying, and asking someone to speak on your behalf to improve your condition.

If you pay attention, you will note that in Scripture when we pray for someone else, we are doing so to improve our own relationship with God. It's part of why Jesus told us to pray for our enemies, because they still have to repent and turn to God for them to receive forgiveness, but when we pray for our enemies and those who wrong us, we practice the same compassion and forgiveness as Jesus and so grow closer to Him.

From this perspective, it makes no sense for us to ask Mary to pray for us, because A) we already have direct access to Christ and do not really need someone else, B) Mary will not be closer to her son by praying for someone she never even met in her earthly life, and C) that's not how this works, as I explained before.

Coke Bear: "Please explain what you mean by "superhuman" and where I have stated she isas much."

I have noted a number of great people in Scripture, to whom we are not directed to pray and who did as much as Mary to please God. Noah, Abraham, David, Esther, Ruth, and so on. You have singled out Mary and made clear you consider her superior, and by pretending she was sinless you have indeed claimed Mary is more than human.

Suffice to say I disagree.

Quote:

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Oldbear83 said:
Coke Bear: "Can we pray to the risen Jesus or the Holy Spirit? The bible never says that we can or should. Do we? Yes, of course."

Mister, I genuinely hope you were just being intellectually lazy, and not deliberately claiming Mary is the same as Christ or the The Holy Spirit. That would indeed be blasphemous!

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Coke Bear: "I should have clarified my point better which was/is that the Bible never states that we should pray to the risen Jesus or the HS, but we do. My point is that the bible is NOT going to tell us everything to do and not to do.

I was NOT trying to equal Mary to the Trinity."

We are never to pray to a human.

PERIOD.

Quote:

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Oldbear83 said:
When Jesus spoke with Moses and Elihjah at the Transfiguration, Mary was not there.

When Jesus helped Peter to walk on water, Mary was not there.

When Jesus rose from the dead, the first person to see Him risen was Mary ... but not Mary the Mother of Jesus.

And so on.

None of this is to disrespect Mary, but exaggerating her as you do is very wrong.

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Coke Bear: "My point wasn't to say that Mary was at EVERY critical point in the Jesus' life. It was stating that God chose her out of all the billions of women that walked the earth to be his mother. The most perfect woman ever.

One last event that I omitted (maybe by divine providence) Mary was with Jesus at the Wedding Feast of Cana. What did she do? She interceded for the newlyweds and asked Jesus to help with the wine. She obeyed her son, and he performed his first public miracle and he began his ministry.

She has been and is still interceding for us."

I disagree, but do find it interesting that you missed a point about Cana. It was Mary's idea to ask Jesus to do a miracle, to which He reminded her it was not yet His time.

That was a mild but clear rebuke that she was in the wrong there. As she did at other times, Mary got a little proud of her position and imagined it gave her certain privilege.

She was wrong.


Coke Bear: "Finally, given the biblical data that I presented to you, it is "exaggerating" to call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? If so, why"

OK, to explain this I want to start by saying I am going to bring up Satan, but I am not saying you are acting in a Satanic way. But in both the Garden of Eden and when he tried to tempt Christ, Satan took God's words and twisted them in an effort (successful in Eden, failed with Jesus) to trick them into believing a lie. So it's important to not say Scripture says something unless it very clearly states exactly that. And Luke never said what you claim, the references you gave were shoved into place to suggest something not actually in the Gospels.

One thing about the Gospels, is that they are very clear in their message. When Jesus performs a miracle, the context and significance are made clear, and when people's identity matters they are clearly named. So no, I do not agree that Luke, in any way, meant to compare Mary with the Ark of the Covenant.

I went to some trouble to explain how the Ark, which contained God Himself, could not even be touched because of this. That in no way describes Mary.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but no, Mary was not part of the Covenant represented by Christ to any degree greater than were John, Matthew, or any of the other disciples. That is, she mattered but she is was not greater than the role clearly granted in Scripture.

She was indeed Blessed, but Jesus used the same word to describe others in the Beatitudes.

She was Blameless when she bore Jesus, but not sinless. That belongs to God alone.

It is a dangerous exaggeration to pretend otherwise. It is why some worship Mary because they have been taught to confuse her for her son.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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First of all, answering altar calls or believing in the Trinity are not requirements for salvation. Believing in Jesus and putting your faith in him for your salvation, is. "Accepting Jesus as one's personal savior" is just the modern way of saying that.

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First of all, I don't know what you believe determines salvation because you have never claimed a specific denomination. With other protestant denominations, I understand (or can look up) what they believe.

Having said that, Catholics believe that there is more to salvation, but that's a discussion for a later time.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Regarding the person who's never heard of Jesus - it is and always will be a tough question. Whatever God does, it will be perfectly fair and just. I don't know what happens to them, and neither do you, so you shouldn't presume anything. It seems fair to us for God to judge those who've never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel based on how they've responded to God's revelation via nature, morals, etc.

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Here, you are exactly in accordance with Catholic teaching. We don't know the status of those people (or anyone else who hasn't heard the gospel. The Catechism states in CCC 847 -

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciencethose too may achieve eternal salvation."

God does not work in absolutes for salvation. 1 Timothy 2:4, states that God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

God is NOT going to ask the impossible of the 14th Century Native Americans to obtain their salvation. Just like Jesus is not going to require the thief on the cross to be baptized. It would have been impossible for him to do so.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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But the question for you is this: if that is the case, then why the Great Commission? Why did Jesus' apostles have to give their lives spreading the Gospel to every nation? Why evangelize the world even today, which often comes at great cost? Why not just have God save those who are "aligned" with Him, instead of risking the possibility that they'll hear the Gospel and reject it?

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Great questions.

Spreading the gospel was not a suggestion, but it is the core mission of the Church (and all Christians.) It is an act of charity. What is Charity? Charity is Love. What is Love? Saint Thomas Aquinas states that Love is Willing the Good of Another.

By sharing the gospel, we are willing the best for others.

To your last question, we proclaim the gospels even if it puts them in peril of rejecting it because they need to know the truth so that they can chose for themselves.

God has sufficient grace for everyone to be saved. Due to environment, culture, upbringing, etc., not everyone will respond to that grace. Look at cultures like the 4th century pagan Ireland. St Patrick, after being held captive there as a boy went back and converted the whole country into Christians.

Cortez helped end the evil and demonic human sacrifice of the Aztecs and the Catholic priests with the help of Our Lady of Gualdape converted Mexico to Christianity.

Look at what's happening in China. Through the proclamation of the gospel, in the next 20 - 40 years may become the most-populous Christian country in the world despite opposition and oppression by the Chinese government.

Image a trying to cross a dangerous ravine to get to heaven filled with snakes, wild animals, dense jungle, poisonous incents, very little light, step drop offs, sheer walls to climb up with no hand holds, etc.

Now build a bridge (Christianity) across that ravine to get to heaven.

Can one obtain heaven in both directions? Yes. Which way was better?

Why leave that risk up to someone? That wouldn't be love. Christ calls us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. We must proclaim the gospel to all.

Some cultures need a push.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "I appreciate your goodwill and extend it from my behalf as well. I would ask that you would try to look at this with neutral eyes and not established protestant eyes."

No. After all, you have a clear opinion you consider correct which I consider to be biased error. It's also a hint of an insult to imply that 'protestant eyes' means not based on reason. I have tried not to accuse you of being dishonest as an RC, please do not play such games here.

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No, I 'm not saying that your opinions are not based on reason. You're reading into my comment. It only meant to look with neutral eyes and mind with no biases. We all have them. It's a matter of looking at the other side.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Please show me a passage where it says that Mary committed a sin.
("All have sinned and fallen short of the glory." If one says "ALL" means "ALL", then one has to include Jesus. You also have to include babies, but they have never sinned. So "ALL" doesn't mean "ALL." Paul was speaking in generalizations. Please show me where Mary sinned."

Sorry but that verse proves my point. That's because basic grammar makes clear that Christ as the Redeemer is separate from the rest of Humanity; that verse makes clear that every last one of us needs Christ's help.

To help see what I mean, consider if you hear on the news that when police arrived at the scene, 'everyone was fighting'. That would not mean that the Police were brawling from the moment they arrived, but would explain why the response by law enforcement had to be immediate. Or if someone said 'no one in the class understood the material', that would not include the teacher who was explaining the material, it refers collectively to the students.

Sorry but that verse as written means Mary was in the same boat as everyone else.

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You are conflating to different concepts again. I never mentioned Mary not needing Christ's help. I never mentioned Mary NOT needing redeemer. She absolutely did. I mentioned exceptions to the "ALL" being Jesus and babies being without sin. Babies lack the rational capacity to sin. Some mentally ******ed persons also lack the capacity to sin.

If those are obvious exceptions, then it's reasonable to believe that Paul was NOT including everyone.

I'm still waiting for a passage where she sinned.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Please show me where I stated that Mary is as "holy as God".

You implied it by trying to change her status from 'blameless' to 'sinless', and to add her to the conversation when we talk to God. We've been all over that.

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Adam and Eve were both sinless until the fall. That didn't make them God.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "If James 5:16 instructs us to pray for one another, then aren't we all intercessors? When I pray for you, (as I do twice a day morning rosary and evening prayers) aren't I acting as an intercessor?"

There is a very large and important difference between asking God to help someone when you are praying, and asking someone to speak on your behalf to improve your condition.

If you pay attention, you will note that in Scripture when we pray for someone else, we are doing so to improve our own relationship with God. It's part of why Jesus told us to pray for our enemies, because they still have to repent and turn to God for them to receive forgiveness, but when we pray for our enemies and those who wrong us, we practice the same compassion and forgiveness as Jesus and so grow closer to Him.

From this perspective, it makes no sense for us to ask Mary to pray for us, because A) we already have direct access to Christ and do not really need someone else, B) Mary will not be closer to her son by praying for someone she never even met in her earthly life, and C) that's not how this works, as I explained before.

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So the only reason you pray for others is so that you can "improve our own relationship with God"? It seems very selfish.

I agree that we should pray for others because we are ALL the body of Christ. I get closer to God when I pray, but I don't pray for others TO get closer to him. I pray for others to request his help for them. I think you completely misunderstand what happens in prayer. Mary is NOT interceding for us to grow closer to God. She's in heaven. She's not getting any closer. She presents our intercessions because she loves us.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Please explain what you mean by "superhuman" and where I have stated she isas much."

I have noted a number of great people in Scripture, to whom we are not directed to pray and who did as much as Mary to please God. Noah, Abraham, David, Esther, Ruth, and so on. You have singled out Mary and made clear you consider her superior, and by pretending she was sinless you have indeed claimed Mary is more than human.

Suffice to say I disagree.

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Four people were born without original sin Adam, Eve, Mary, and Jesus. Only one was God. I've demonstrated that millions of people haven't sinned babies, mentally diminished people. They aren't God. Where does it say that only God doesn't have sin?

In Romans, where Paul appeals to the case of Jacob and Esau and speaks of the time when "they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

Oldbear83 said:

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We are never to pray to a human.
PERIOD.

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Pray does NOT mean WORSHIP. It means to ask for intercession. It's ok to ask for intercession from someone.

Oldbear83 said:

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I disagree, but do find it interesting that you missed a point about Cana. It was Mary's idea to ask Jesus to do a miracle, to which He reminded her it was not yet His time.

That was a mild but clear rebuke that she was in the wrong there. As she did at other times, Mary got a little proud of her position and imagined it gave her certain privilege.

She was wrong.

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That's a strange view of parenthood to assume that a mom asking her son for help made her "a little proud of her position and imagined it gave her certain privilege." But I digress …You are really reading into that passage because did acquiesce, obey, performed the miracle, and began his public ministry. But let's say that she was "wrong"?

How does being "wrong" in a judgement equate to sin? If I turn the wrong direction or miss my turn on the highway, is that a sin?

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear: "Finally, given the biblical data that I presented to you, it is "exaggerating" to call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? If so, why"

OK, to explain this I want to start by saying I am going to bring up Satan, but I am not saying you are acting in a Satanic way. But in both the Garden of Eden and when he tried to tempt Christ, Satan took God's words and twisted them in an effort (successful in Eden, failed with Jesus) to trick , states exactly that. And Luke never said what you claim, the references you gave were shoved into place to suggest something not actually in the Gospels.

One thing about the Gospels, is that they are very clear in their message. When Jesus performs a miracle, the context and significance are made clear, and when people's identity matters they are clearly named. So no, I do not agree that Luke, in any way, meant to compare Mary with the Ark of the Covenant.

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Interesting, because St. Ephrem, St. Hippolytus, St. Ambrose, St. Cyril, St. Athanasius, St Dionysius, St. Methodius, St. Jerome and many other Church fathers all seem to disagree with you.

Oldbear83 said:

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I went to some trouble to explain how the Ark, which contained God Himself, could not even be touched because of this. That in no way describes Mary.

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Didn't Mary contain God himself?

Mary couldn't be touched also, but in a different manner. She remained ever-Virgin. St. Joseph never had marital relations with her. Thanks for making that point!

Oldbear83 said:

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She was indeed Blessed, but Jesus used the same word to describe others in the Beatitudes.

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You are looking solely at the English. Those are two different words in the Greek. In Luke, he uses the word "eulogon" which means a blessing. In Matthew, he uses the word "makarios" meaning happy.

Oldbear83 said:

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She was Blameless when she bore Jesus, but not sinless. That belongs to God alone.

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As mentioned earlier, St Paul's letter to the Romans disagrees with you.

Oldbear83 said:

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It is a dangerous exaggeration to pretend otherwise. It is why some worship Mary because they have been taught to confuse her for her son.

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Please show me where the Church says to "Worship" Mary. We're talking about what the Church teaches.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Is God made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

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Made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? No, He is not. God the Son is the only begotten of God the Father. God the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father. Three persons of the Trinity, one in essence.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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First of all, answering altar calls or believing in the Trinity are not requirements for salvation. Believing in Jesus and putting your faith in him for your salvation, is. "Accepting Jesus as one's personal savior" is just the modern way of saying that.

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First of all, I don't know what you believe determines salvation because you have never claimed a specific denomination. With other protestant denominations, I understand (or can look up) what they believe.

Having said that, Catholics believe that there is more to salvation, but that's a discussion for a later time.

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I JUST told you what determines salvation. In the very paragraph you are responding to. I've been saying what determines salvation throughout this whole thread. I already told you to not consider me a "protestant" or any other label, and just deal with what I'm saying based on its own merits. You are so caught up on what church people belong to, instead of the actual substance of what they believe. In the end, that's all that matters. God doesn't save churches. He saves people.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Regarding the person who's never heard of Jesus - it is and always will be a tough question. Whatever God does, it will be perfectly fair and just. I don't know what happens to them, and neither do you, so you shouldn't presume anything. It seems fair to us for God to judge those who've never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel based on how they've responded to God's revelation via nature, morals, etc.

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Here, you are exactly in accordance with Catholic teaching. We don't know the status of those people (or anyone else who hasn't heard the gospel. The Catechism states in CCC 847 -

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciencethose too may achieve eternal salvation."

God does not work in absolutes for salvation. 1 Timothy 2:4, states that God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

God is NOT going to ask the impossible of the 14th Century Native Americans to obtain their salvation. Just like Jesus is not going to require the thief on the cross to be baptized. It would have been impossible for him to do so.

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You went from "we don't know what happens to them" to asserting "God does not work in absolutes for salvation". You can't assert something to be true when you don't know. And 1 Timothy 2:4 doesn't support that assertion. This is just more double talk.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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But the question for you is this: if that is the case, then why the Great Commission? Why did Jesus' apostles have to give their lives spreading the Gospel to every nation? Why evangelize the world even today, which often comes at great cost? Why not just have God save those who are "aligned" with Him, instead of risking the possibility that they'll hear the Gospel and reject it?

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Great questions.

Spreading the gospel was not a suggestion, but it is the core mission of the Church (and all Christians.) It is an act of charity. What is Charity? Charity is Love. What is Love? Saint Thomas Aquinas states that Love is Willing the Good of Another.

By sharing the gospel, we are willing the best for others.

To your last question, we proclaim the gospels even if it puts them in peril of rejecting it because they need to know the truth so that they can chose for themselves.

God has sufficient grace for everyone to be saved. Due to environment, culture, upbringing, etc., not everyone will respond to that grace. Look at cultures like the 4th century pagan Ireland. St Patrick, after being held captive there as a boy went back and converted the whole country into Christians.

Cortez helped end the evil and demonic human sacrifice of the Aztecs and the Catholic priests with the help of Our Lady of Gualdape converted Mexico to Christianity.

Look at what's happening in China. Through the proclamation of the gospel, in the next 20 - 40 years may become the most-populous Christian country in the world despite opposition and oppression by the Chinese government.

Image a trying to cross a dangerous ravine to get to heaven filled with snakes, wild animals, dense jungle, poisonous incents, very little light, step drop offs, sheer walls to climb up with no hand holds, etc.

Now build a bridge (Christianity) across that ravine to get to heaven.

Can one obtain heaven in both directions? Yes. Which way was better?

Why leave that risk up to someone? That wouldn't be love. Christ calls us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. We must proclaim the gospel to all.

Some cultures need a push.

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I don't see how being "aligned with God in one's heart" is like trying to cross a dangerous ravine filled with hazards. There is no need to "build a bridge" across it, if God deems that they are already there, or if their hearts being aligned with Him is already a bridge itself.

Nothing you are arguing takes away from the fact that it is not necessary for innocent people to be persecuted, tortured, or killed for spreading the Gospel if God can save people without it by simply looking at whether someone's heart is aligned with Him. If you think about it, being aligned with God in your heart would mean that if you DID hear the Gospel, you'd believe it. Because no one who is aligned with God in their heart would reject Jesus. They would recognize the truth of who he is. He who has the Father, has the Son (1 John 2:23). So basically, these people would be saved either way. It would make facing the perils of evangelizing them unnecessary, as far as their salvation is concerned. It'd be hard to say that having people persecuted, tortured, and killed is the "better" way.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Is God made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

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Made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? No, He is not. God the Son is the only begotten of God the Father. God the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father. Three persons of the Trinity, one in essence.

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Semantics doesn't help you.

Is Mary the Mother or "bearer" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? No, she is not.

Therefore, Mary is not the Mother of God, nor the "bearer" of God.

If you say Mary is not the Theotokos, you deny the divine nature of Christ. But perhaps you don't believe in that?

Is Christ fully God and fully man?

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear, I want to start by emphasizing I write in goodwill, as to a brother who is taking a terrible risk and yet he denies the danger.

The plain fact of Mary's status is that she pleased the Lord, and so was blessed.

This is a wonderful condition for a person, and one many of us would hope for ourselves.

Yet Scripture is plain that Mary was not sinless, was not holy as God is holy, and was never referenced as an intercessor for us.

THAT role belongs exclusively to Christ.

Now, regarding Luke 1, I am sorry to be blunt but Luke absolutely does NOT promote Mary to superhuman status.

"Blessed" means that, but ONLY that. If Luke had meant for us to consider Mary as "most special among women", he would plainly have said so, but in fact he says nothing of the kind.

Coke Bear: "Can we pray to the risen Jesus or the Holy Spirit? The bible never says that we can or should. Do we? Yes, of course."

Mister, I genuinely hope you were just being intellectually lazy, and not deliberately claiming Mary is the same as Christ or the The Holy Spirit. That would indeed be blasphemous!

Coke Bear: "Does the bible say that others should pray for others? Yes, it's clear in James 5:16. Why would James say to pray for one another if "Christ is our complete and sufficient intercessor"?"

There is a huge difference between asking the Lord to help someone, and praying to Mary to speak to God on your behalf, treating her as an intermediary to God, which definitely would be stealing Christ's role from Him.


Coke Bear: "Other than many years of protestant bias, I can't understand why someone would believe that is just an ordinary woman. Yes, she is just a woman, but she is quite extraordinary. Out of all the 50+ billion women to walk the earth, God choose her to be the mother of his only son. She risked her life to bring him into the world. She traveled several days to Egypt to protect him from death."

First, check yourself. I never said Mary was ordinary, but have always shown her respect and appreciation for what she did. But with that said, Scripture makes plain that Mary was mentioned very few times, and at least twice she was shown to be in error in her beliefs.

That's not to insult Mary, just adding perspective. Mary sinned in her life just as she loved and cared for Jesus. This is similar to David, Abraham, Sarah, and many other servants of the Lord.

Mary was a good servant and worthy in her work. But she was not more than others, and this is plain.

When the Book of Revelation speaks of the 24 Elders seated in thrones around God, Mary is not among them.

When Jesus spoke with Moses and Elihjah at the Transfiguration, Mary was not there.

When Jesus helped Peter to walk on water, Mary was not there.

When Jesus rose from the dead, the first person to see Him risen was Mary ... but not Mary the Mother of Jesus.

And so on.

None of this is to disrespect Mary, but exaggerating her as you do is very wrong.



Coke Bear: "It's OK to love Mary"

Oh, I do love Mary. I just don't lie about her or pretend she is the female version of Christ.

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Is it required to venerate Mary to get to Heaven? No but why not indulge every blessing gift and opportunity God has given us?


So riddle me this, seems you / others here are making the case Mary is jag (just a gal) and also fiercely committed to Sola scriptura (which can also be challenged in many many ways but put that aside for now), how do you square the sola scriptura with your opinion that Mary is just like any other of the billions of women (even if one can get past God literally chose HER of all women in all times to birth and raise the carnal representation of the Word on earth (I would struggle so hard to make this case as a Protestant) and yet the scriptura says

Mary "BLESSED ART YOU AMONGST WOMEN"

The scriptura even elevates her so to suggest she is just another gal is ispo facto a herecy.

Thoughts?

Realitybites said:

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If you say Mary is not the Theotokos, you deny the divine nature of Christ. But perhaps you don't believe in that?

Is Christ fully God and fully man?

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It isn't denying Jesus' divinity at all. Saying Mary is not the Theotokos is saying that Mary is not the bearer of God. Which she clearly is not.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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If you say Mary is not the Theotokos, you deny the divine nature of Christ. But perhaps you don't believe in that?

Is Christ fully God and fully man?

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It isn't denying Jesus' divinity at all. Saying Mary is not the Theotokos is saying that Mary is not the bearer of God. Which she clearly is not.

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Well, at least you can put yourself in the same camp as the heretic, Nestorius who denied the same thing. This heresy was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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First of all, answering altar calls or believing in the Trinity are not requirements for salvation. Believing in Jesus and putting your faith in him for your salvation, is. "Accepting Jesus as one's personal savior" is just the modern way of saying that.

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First of all, I don't know what you believe determines salvation because you have never claimed a specific denomination. With other protestant denominations, I understand (or can look up) what they believe.

Having said that, Catholics believe that there is more to salvation, but that's a discussion for a later time.

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I JUST told you what determines salvation. In the very paragraph you are responding to. I've been saying what determines salvation throughout this whole thread. I already told you to not consider me a "protestant" or any other label, and just deal with what I'm saying based on its own merits. You are so caught up on what church people belong to, instead of the actual substance of what they believe. In the end, that's all that matters. God doesn't save churches. He saves people.

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We can discuss the "salvation" and its requirements at later point. We have a few other threads to wrap up.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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If you say Mary is not the Theotokos, you deny the divine nature of Christ. But perhaps you don't believe in that?

Is Christ fully God and fully man?

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It isn't denying Jesus' divinity at all. Saying Mary is not the Theotokos is saying that Mary is not the bearer of God. Which she clearly is not.

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Well, at least you can put yourself in the same camp as the heretic, Nestorius who denied the same thing. This heresy was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD.

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Once again, please understand what the Nestorian heresy is before you accuse others of it. This is three times now you've gotten it wrong, and instead of doing the intellectually honest thing, you've tripled down on it.

And Catholic councils do not have divine authority. They are fallible and don't determine what is biblically true. Catholic councils made it a requirement to believe in completely unbiblical and invented beliefs like Mary's sinlessness, bodily assumption, and perpetual virginity upon penalty of being anathematized to hell. They even anathematized the rulings of their own previous councils! If that doesn't reveal to you they do not have divine authority and are fallible then perhaps nothing will.

I think we have reached that unfortunate point, where at least one side stops reading the posts except to find something to attack.

There are no steps back to check assumptions, and certainly no serious attention to Scripture presented.

So I think we have reached the limit of what can be achieved in discussing the question of Mary as presented here.

I leave this topic with one last observation:

If it should happen that God doesn't mind people asking Mary to be a kind of Deputy Intercessor, sort of a stand in when Jesus is maybe taking a coffee break or maybe doing some Sodoku, then there is no sin in praying directly to the Father as Jesus instructed.

However, if it should be the case that God does not want us to pray to Mary, that it's not a good thing to put a statue of Mary with its own set of votive candles in the Sanctuary of a church, especially those places where Mary has a place on a pedestal very close to Jesus' own place in the church, then perhaps our Roman Catholic brothers should stop and reconsider their assumptions.

1) The secular Writings prove that Jesus Christ is a Literal person in History.
2) The Secular Writings prove that Jesus Christ existed, died on the Cross and that His followers believed that He is God.
3) The Eyewitness Biblical Writings prove that Jesus Christ fulfilled over 100 prophecies written hundreds of years before His birth, including when He would be born, where He would be born, that He would be rejected by HIs own people. betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, that He would die and that He would rise again.
4) The Eyewitness Biblical Writings affirm that He performed countless miracles, healed the sick, made the lame to walk, walked on water, turned water into wine, made the blind to see, predicted His own death and resurrection and then died and rose again.
5) Had Jesus Christ not really died and rose from the dead, then He would have been exposed as a fraud and Christianity would have died out right then and there, BUT what we actually see is that there was an explosion of Christianity right AFTER the resurrection.
6) Those who believed in Him were willing to die rather than deny His resurrection. Some might die for a lie, but no one will willingly die for what they know to be a lie, and if Jesus Christ didn't really rise again, then His followers would know that they were dying for what they knew to be a lie. That's why God allowed them to be Martyred I believe to prove it.
7) Yes Dr Nelson Price does list many of the Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ, but not all. The writings of Josephus also talk about Jesus Christ. There are also Early Church Writings that give some history. I am sure there are other writings as well other than those listed by Dr Nelson Price.

Jesus Christ is God.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

Oldbear83 said:

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I think we have reached that unfortunate point, where at least one side stops reading the posts except to find something to attack.

There are no steps back to check assumptions, and certainly no serious attention to Scripture presented.

So I think we have reached the limit of what can be achieved in discussing the question of Mary as presented here.

I leave this topic with one last observation:

If it should happen that God doesn't mind people asking Mary to be a kind of Deputy Intercessor, sort of a stand in when Jesus is maybe taking a coffee break or maybe doing some Sodoku, then there is no sin in praying directly to the Father as Jesus instructed.

However, if it should be the case that God does not want us to pray to Mary, that it's not a good thing to put a statue of Mary with its own set of votive candles in the Sanctuary of a church, especially those places where Mary has a place on a pedestal very close to Jesus' own place in the church, then perhaps our Roman Catholic brothers should stop and reconsider their assumptions.

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Do you have a picture of your family in your house? In a special spot? Is that idolatry? And do you ask them to pray for you? Would they be above below or equal to the mother of the corporeal God?

All serious questions. I don't choose to argue as there won't be anything won and I do t choose to try to humiliate or degrade anyone. Simply an intellectual discussion on the various differences and beliefs. Some of which will matter and some of which won't to our eternal souls.

We are in fact here to try to bring as many as possible to the Lord.

I also wonder how many here who have Martin Luther to thank for their various denominations have delved deeply into his thoughts on Mary and the Catholic Church. Could they even expound extemporaneously on what his 95 theses even were and how many other things were nailed to the wood that day as was the custom.

Just interesting things to ponder.

I felt this was a pretty good summary of my debates and discussions with Protestants through the years

Fre3dombear said:

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I also wonder how many here who have Martin Luther to thank for their various denominations have delved deeply into his thoughts on Mary and the Catholic Church. Could they even expound extemporaneously on what his 95 theses even were and how many other things were nailed to the wood that day as was the custom.

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The 95 Theses

"#1 When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

#3 Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.

#4 The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven."

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! (the sound of heads exploding).

I actually have a lot of respect for confessional Lutheranism, having preserved pre-Tridentine worship in the west. But the children of Zwingli and Calvin are a long, long way from the faith once delivered to the saints.

Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I also wonder how many here who have Martin Luther to thank for their various denominations have delved deeply into his thoughts on Mary and the Catholic Church. Could they even expound extemporaneously on what his 95 theses even were and how many other things were nailed to the wood that day as was the custom.

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The 95 Theses

"#1 When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

#3 Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.

#4 The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven."

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! (the sound of heads exploding).

I actually have a lot of respect for confessional Lutheranism, having preserved pre-Tridentine worship in the west. But the children of Zwingli and Calvin are a long, long way from the faith once delivered to the saints.

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There is something powerful and freeing sitting face to face with someone and telling them out loud your worst mistakes (and not worry as well). The acknowledgement drives accountability and out best attempt to go and sin no more