Why is it always "bickering" when other people make comments, but not when you do?Oldbear83 said:
Anyone remember the verse which said, 'Come, let us reason'?
Be nice to have more of that, and less bickering.
The problem is when you or others have an errant belief or thinking, you view anyone who says the truth and proves it as "attacking" or having a bad tone. That's the way it comes across, because of your pride. It's human nature. No one likes to be wrong. The defense mechanism is to marginalize the other person as being evil so you don't have to consider what they say. It's what you're doing right now.Oldbear83 said:
There is a world of difference between stating an opinion and explaining your reasoning, versus demanding others agree with you and going off like a pit bull on RedBull whenever someone doesn't cheer your post.
No see, you're doing it right now. You're trying to marginalize me as the guy with the "venom". It's such a pathetic, immature way to handle other people who you disagree with. You obviously feel like you can't rebut anything I've said, so you're trying to find the one way you can "win".Oldbear83 said:
No, it's what many people keep trying to tell you, BTD.
Your anger damages your credibility. And frankly you project so much onto me because I dare to remind you what they said.
BUDOS said it well. You often have good points, but you simply cannot accept anything less than complete agreement from others, and it's not at all helpful to your cause.
[ angry venom from BTD in 5, 4, 3 ... ]
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:The problem is when you or others have an errant belief or thinking, you view anyone who says the truth and proves it as "attacking" or having a bad tone. That's the way it comes across, because of your pride. It's human nature. No one likes to be wrong. The defense mechanism is to marginalize the other person as being evil so you don't have to consider what they say. It's what you're doing right now.Oldbear83 said:
There is a world of difference between stating an opinion and explaining your reasoning, versus demanding others agree with you and going off like a pit bull on RedBull whenever someone doesn't cheer your post.
Your characterization that I "demand others agree with me" and that I "go off like a pit bull" when someone doesn't "cheer my post" is another ridiculous judgement. It's an obvious projection.
Oldbear83 said:
And there we are. BTD and Frodo are buddies and deny anything that might require them to revisit their assumptions.
As a result, this thread remains anemic and fruitless, producing arguments and bitterness but no fruit from the Spirit.
xfrodobagginsx said:Oldbear83 said:
And there we are. BTD and Frodo are buddies and deny anything that might require them to revisit their assumptions.
As a result, this thread remains anemic and fruitless, producing arguments and bitterness but no fruit from the Spirit.
Says who? Says you. This thread has potentially shared the Gospel with over 300k people. God will judge it's effectiveness & it's fruit, not you. My goal is to tell the truth and let the chips fall.where they may. That iscalso what the Prophets of old and the Apostles and Christ did. Keep having your debates, discussions, but be honest about thecpositions of others and your own position. I don't know BTD & I am sure we disagree on a lot of things, but I don't accuse him of being hateful.for disagreeing with me. Let's leave that out unless we have an actual, factual reason for it please. That's all I am saying.
Oldbear83 said:
Anyone remember the verse which said, 'Come, let us reason'?
Be nice to have more of that, and less bickering.
Thank you, Frodo.xfrodobagginsx said:Oldbear83 said:
Anyone remember the verse which said, 'Come, let us reason'?
Be nice to have more of that, and less bickering.
I agree with this, 100%. Yes, let's do this.
Gonna have to agree with my "buddy" frodo - the thread isn't "fruitless" just because it doesn't meet your standards or expectations. Neither is it fruitless if people get offended by the tone. On the contrary - people are offended because they're hearing a truth they don't want to hear, but really need to hear. "Fruitful" does not necessarily equate to "pleasant".Oldbear83 said:
And there we are. BTD and Frodo are buddies and deny anything that might require them to revisit their assumptions.
As a result, this thread remains anemic and fruitless, producing arguments and bitterness but no fruit from the Spirit.
First of all, I did not say that the Shroud IS the work of the devil, but that it could be, and even if it weren't, it could be used by Satan to deceive.Oldbear83 said:Thank you, Frodo.xfrodobagginsx said:Oldbear83 said:
Anyone remember the verse which said, 'Come, let us reason'?
Be nice to have more of that, and less bickering.
I agree with this, 100%. Yes, let's do this.
Going back to the Shroud, Busy Tarp Duster raised a valid concern about the possibility that some people may trust the image more than build their faith in Christ. But I disagree that this possibility makes the Shroud Satan's work.
We have reached a place where many people barely believe a real human called Jesus of Nazareth ever existed, much less that he was as the Bible described. Far too many people dismiss as myths the Biblical accounts. As a result, it serves Satan to mock talk about Christ, and the Shroud does the opposite.
Whether the Shroud shows Christ or not, it is undeniably an extraordinary artifact, and no one has ever been able to expose it as a forgery, or even credibly explain how it was made. That alone creates a reasonable interest in the image, and as we have seen, the image in the Shroud corresponds to the known wounds Christ suffered according to Scripture, and it certainly sounds reasonable that someone rising from the dead would also be capable of leaving some unique evidence behind.
At the very least, the Shroud has caused many people to discuss who Christ was, how He died, and to consider what it means if He should turn out to be exactly what the Gospel accounts say He is.
Want me to prove it? Name one false accusation.Oldbear83 said:
Jesus does not approve of false accusations, BTD.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:First of all, I did not say that the Shroud IS the work of the devil, but that it could be, and even if it weren't, it could be used by Satan to deceive.Oldbear83 said:Thank you, Frodo.xfrodobagginsx said:Oldbear83 said:
Anyone remember the verse which said, 'Come, let us reason'?
Be nice to have more of that, and less bickering.
I agree with this, 100%. Yes, let's do this.
Going back to the Shroud, Busy Tarp Duster raised a valid concern about the possibility that some people may trust the image more than build their faith in Christ. But I disagree that this possibility makes the Shroud Satan's work.
We have reached a place where many people barely believe a real human called Jesus of Nazareth ever existed, much less that he was as the Bible described. Far too many people dismiss as myths the Biblical accounts. As a result, it serves Satan to mock talk about Christ, and the Shroud does the opposite.
Whether the Shroud shows Christ or not, it is undeniably an extraordinary artifact, and no one has ever been able to expose it as a forgery, or even credibly explain how it was made. That alone creates a reasonable interest in the image, and as we have seen, the image in the Shroud corresponds to the known wounds Christ suffered according to Scripture, and it certainly sounds reasonable that someone rising from the dead would also be capable of leaving some unique evidence behind.
At the very least, the Shroud has caused many people to discuss who Christ was, how He died, and to consider what it means if He should turn out to be exactly what the Gospel accounts say He is.
It'd be foolish to not consider this possibiliy, and just accept it as being from God, no questions, because it "points" people to Jesus. The bible clearly tells us that Satan uses false prophets and false Christs to deceive. A perfect example of this is the Marian apparitions that the Catholics here brought up - "Mary" does mention God and Jesus, maybe even saying to worship them, but she also says to worship her and spread worship of her all over the world. This is how Satan works - he will often talk a lot of truth, but mix in just enough deception in there to mislead. In the case of the Marian apparitions, it's not just a little, it's a LOT. But sadly, as you've seen, some people are still taken by it. And they justify it by saying "see how it points us to Jesus when she says to worship him!" Yes, but that's not all she's saying. Therein lies the problem.
Oldbear83 said:
Jesus does not approve of false accusations, BTD.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
You and your Scientism
As I mentioned to OldBear83, we are all part of the Body of Christ. When we sin, it impacts all. When we preform meritorious acts, it impacts all. All meaning the Body of Christ, including those on earth (Church Militant), those in purgatory (Church Suffering), and those in heaven (Church Triumphret.)BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
First of all, we store our treasures in heaven, not our works. And no one is saying that we don't. What you are trying to claim is that this is saying our treasures in heaven are a "bank" that someone else can claim, and likewise we can claim from others. There is nothing in Scripture whatsoever that even suggests this. You can't even keep focused on the argument at hand.
We will undergo a purgation of our attachment to sins. That could happen when we're alive, after death, or both. By joining our suffering with Christ's and removing our attachment to sin now, we might be able to reduce the "time" it takes to remove our attachment in the afterlife.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Whatever you're trying to say about Paul and Jesus' sufferings, again, you're not making the case at all that this is saying that there is a treasury of merit that we can claim for ourselves to lessen our suffering in "purgatory".
The list of all 73 books was definitively settled by the Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD) and later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent in the 16th century.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
If the books of the canon are infallible, then which canon that has been approved by Roman Catholic Councils are you talking about? Because they approved different ones, even ones that excluded the apocryphal books.
Wow, the "True-Scotsman" fallacy! You went old school on that one. Good for you. It holds no weight and bears no truth.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
The dogmas of Mary are NOWHERE to be found in the early church, let alone in the Bible. I refuse to accept them because I am a Christian and not a Marian cultist like yourself. You can't see how evil the Marian dogmas are, because you are not a true Christian. I hate to say it, but it's simple as that. Any true Christian who has the Holy Spirit can EASILY see the heresy and idolatry in those dogmas, as well as in the Mary worship you so obviously engage in.
So, in other words, you have no response other than ad hominem attacks.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
It was just a thought for Christians who truly seek the truth and want to honor and worship Jesus alone. It wasn't for Marian idolaters. The fact that you, a Marian, have so easily bought into the Shroud being real actually makes my case against it even stronger.
These are MY rules. The teachings of the Church have been established and developed over 2000 years since Jesus created it.Oldbear83 said:
It's a very dangerous thing to imagine you can do whatever you want unless someone points out a verse that you choose to consider applicable.
More dangerous than that, to decide that God must play by your rules.
Coke Bear said:
Contrast this to your comment with modern-day protestants. What happens when in a Baptist (or protestant) church when a group of folks disagree with Baptist Bob's interpretation(s)? They leave and start a new church led by Baptist Bill. What happens when down the line, some people begin to disagree with Baptist Bill? They leave and start a new church led by Baptist Bryan.
This is exactly what has happened since Luther walked away from the Church. Protestants are playing by THEIR rules, not God's. Look at how many different of Protestantism and churches are in the world today. None of them have the same beliefs.
Jesus prayed for us to be one.
These are not MY rules. The teachings of the Church have been established and developed over 2000 years since Jesus created it.Oldbear83 said:
It's a very dangerous thing to imagine you can do whatever you want unless someone points out a verse that you choose to consider applicable.
More dangerous than that, to decide that God must play by your rules.
Dude, you are so misinformed.Realitybites said:
The problem is that you are the first protestants. 1054 A.D., the Patriarchate of Rome walked away from those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and all the others in the Chrsitian world to follow the pope.
This history can no longer be concealed. The modern Roman Catholic Church dates from 1054 A.D., not 33 A.D.
We have preserved the liturgy, you have not. We have preserved the faith, you have stacked innovation upon innovation.
I do believe that the Shroud is a matter of archelogy, but one has to have faith that it is authentic. But it doesn't matter if it is a forgery.Realitybites said:
The shroud is a matter of archelogy, not an object of faith. If true, it strengthens the Biblical account. If a forgery, it does not impeach them.
Realitybites said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
You and your Scientism
Did God create the universe in seven, 24 hour long days, not separated by extended gaps? This is the clear testimony of Genesis. Do you believe that this is the case?
Coke Bear said:
Out of curiosity, how do you rectify the scientific belief that universe is nearly 14 billion years old and almost 380,000 years before the universe cooled enough for light to travel freely with your 7-day model?
So, you are a literal 7-day creationist?Realitybites said:Coke Bear said:
Out of curiosity, how do you rectify the scientific belief that universe is nearly 14 billion years old and almost 380,000 years before the universe cooled enough for light to travel freely with your 7-day model?
I dismiss it. It is a theory created by atheists which exists outside the scientific method and cannot be empirically proven or disproven. If Covid did anything, it exposed large swaths of the scientific establishment as liars for money, not high priests of rational discovery, truth seeking, and exploration. The fundametal question is do we live in a universe that is evolutionary or devolutionary. It is observably the latter. Evolution: Through death comes life. God: Through sin came death. More importantly, anyone who dismisses a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation and fall account dismisses the need for a literal Savior, crucifixion, and resurrection and makes the entire Christian religion superfluous. But given the origins of old earth evolutionary theory, that was sort of the point.
Furthermore Christ himself was involved in the creation process:
"16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [a]principalities or [b]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17)
...and rules out the evolutionary theory of man when he says "But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.'" (Mark 10:6).
I will address your post regarding orthodoxy vs Roman Catholicism more fully later. When I left the Church of Russell Moore, I approached the issue of which church to join like a free agent. That is to say, I thorougly investigated quite a few.
The last two standing were conservative Lutheran churcbes and Orthodoxy. Yes, I did consider Roman Catholicism. In 2025, confessional Lutherans resemble the Roman Patrarchate more closely than the post Vatican II RCC.
Coke Bear said:
So, you are a literal 7-day creationist?
Still nothing from Scripture that even suggests it. All I'm seeing from you is non sequitur and argument by assertions.Coke Bear said:As I mentioned to OldBear83, we are all part of the Body of Christ. When we sin, it impacts all. When we preform meritorious acts, it impacts all. All meaning the Body of Christ, including those on earth (Church Militant), those in purgatory (Church Suffering), and those in heaven (Church Triumphret.)BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
First of all, we store our treasures in heaven, not our works. And no one is saying that we don't. What you are trying to claim is that this is saying our treasures in heaven are a "bank" that someone else can claim, and likewise we can claim from others. There is nothing in Scripture whatsoever that even suggests this. You can't even keep focused on the argument at hand.
We will undergo a purgation of our attachment to sins. That could happen when we're alive, after death, or both. By joining our suffering with Christ's and removing our attachment to sin now, we might be able to reduce the "time" it takes to remove our attachment in the afterlife.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Whatever you're trying to say about Paul and Jesus' sufferings, again, you're not making the case at all that this is saying that there is a treasury of merit that we can claim for ourselves to lessen our suffering in "purgatory".
