Sam Lowry said:

---

The two opposing views are actually these:

-By God's grace I can always find forgiveness.

-By God's grace I have no need of forgiveness.

The first is the biblical and historically Christian view. The second is the heresy of "once saved, always saved."

---

Sorry, NO ONE is saying they have no need of forgiveness. The difference is, the true believer who is saved seeks forgiveness for their daily sin to restore an intimate relationship with God in their life, not because they lost their salvation and need to be forgiven to get it back again. Saying you lose your salvation by sinning is ultimately saying that your performance is needed for your salvation in addition to your faith - which is EXACTLY the view that Paul says is accursed because it mixes works with grace, and thus turns the gospel of grace into a false gospel.

Ultimately, you're holding the view that "I have faith in Jesus... but I have to not sin or I lose my salvation" which is essentially the first view I described.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The two opposing views are actually these:

-By God's grace I can always find forgiveness.

-By God's grace I have no need of forgiveness.

The first is the biblical and historically Christian view. The second is the heresy of "once saved, always saved."

---

Sorry, NO ONE is saying they have no need of forgiveness. The difference is, the true believer who is saved seeks forgiveness for their daily sin to restore an intimate relationship with God in their life, not because they lost their salvation and need to be forgiven to get it back again. Saying you lose your salvation by sinning is ultimately saying that your performance is needed for your salvation in addition to your faith - which is EXACTLY the view that Paul says is accursed because it mixes works with grace, and thus turns the gospel of grace into a false gospel.

Ultimately, you're holding the view that "I have faith in Jesus... but I have to not sin or I lose my salvation" which is essentially the first view I described.

---

When you call not sinning a performance, you are boasting in your own works. God is not impressed by it. It's you who should be impressed by the grace he offers, and not take it for granted.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The two opposing views are actually these:

-By God's grace I can always find forgiveness.

-By God's grace I have no need of forgiveness.

The first is the biblical and historically Christian view. The second is the heresy of "once saved, always saved."

---

Sorry, NO ONE is saying they have no need of forgiveness. The difference is, the true believer who is saved seeks forgiveness for their daily sin to restore an intimate relationship with God in their life, not because they lost their salvation and need to be forgiven to get it back again. Saying you lose your salvation by sinning is ultimately saying that your performance is needed for your salvation in addition to your faith - which is EXACTLY the view that Paul says is accursed because it mixes works with grace, and thus turns the gospel of grace into a false gospel.

Ultimately, you're holding the view that "I have faith in Jesus... but I have to not sin or I lose my salvation" which is essentially the first view I described.

---

When you call not sinning a performance, you are boasting in your own works. God is not impressed by it. It's you who should be impressed by the grace he offers, and not take it for granted.

---

If you're taking the grace he offers, then like Paul says, when you add your own law-keeping to it, it's no longer grace and you've distorted the gospel. And that those who teach this view are accursed, according to the Bible. I will keep repeating this until you guys get it.

Not sinning is a performance because it's Law keeping. Boasting comes from saying "I was able to keep my salvation because of my ability to not sin". It's relying at least in part on one's own righteousness rather than relying completely on the righteousness of Jesus being fully credited to you upon faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The two opposing views are actually these:

-By God's grace I can always find forgiveness.

-By God's grace I have no need of forgiveness.

The first is the biblical and historically Christian view. The second is the heresy of "once saved, always saved."

---

Sorry, NO ONE is saying they have no need of forgiveness. The difference is, the true believer who is saved seeks forgiveness for their daily sin to restore an intimate relationship with God in their life, not because they lost their salvation and need to be forgiven to get it back again. Saying you lose your salvation by sinning is ultimately saying that your performance is needed for your salvation in addition to your faith - which is EXACTLY the view that Paul says is accursed because it mixes works with grace, and thus turns the gospel of grace into a false gospel.

Ultimately, you're holding the view that "I have faith in Jesus... but I have to not sin or I lose my salvation" which is essentially the first view I described.

---

When you call not sinning a performance, you are boasting in your own works. God is not impressed by it. It's you who should be impressed by the grace he offers, and not take it for granted.

---

If you're taking the grace he offers, then like Paul says, when you add your own law-keeping to it, it's no longer grace and you've distorted the gospel.

Not sinning is a performance because it's Law keeping. Boasting comes from saying "I was able to keep my salvation because of my ability to not sin".

---

Your obedience adds absolutely nothing to God's grace. It would be arrogant to think otherwise.

" No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work."

Well CP, I am not sure that I am ready to go that far. Perhaps his authoritarian tendencies, including his narcissistic Pharisee style behavior has led him to feel that the Holy Spirit has chosen him, and to hell with Paul's instructions on how we are to address each other and nonbelievers.

Obviously I have allowed him to cause me to stumble, at least for now. His habit of creating faults in a person's statements and/or misinterpreting them is frustrating enough. His common to double down on them when called out can be exasperating. Perhaps if we would just admit that he has been selected by the spirit for his task, we would allow ourselves to see the truth, as he defines it, often, but not always, cherry-picking scripture and presenting it in his context.
The hard part for me is knowing that I am to love him as a brother in Christ, even if he is completely convinced that it is us not him who is a bit misguided and sometimes misunderstood.
He has made contributions to the forum; unfortunately his approach, in my opinion, has resulted in more harm than good. Perhaps he will accept correction, one day. Perhaps.

Pending his response, perhaps we can get back to discussing Biblical issues in a manner befitting Christians, me included. But then maybe?

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The two opposing views are actually these:

-By God's grace I can always find forgiveness.

-By God's grace I have no need of forgiveness.

The first is the biblical and historically Christian view. The second is the heresy of "once saved, always saved."

---

Sorry, NO ONE is saying they have no need of forgiveness. The difference is, the true believer who is saved seeks forgiveness for their daily sin to restore an intimate relationship with God in their life, not because they lost their salvation and need to be forgiven to get it back again. Saying you lose your salvation by sinning is ultimately saying that your performance is needed for your salvation in addition to your faith - which is EXACTLY the view that Paul says is accursed because it mixes works with grace, and thus turns the gospel of grace into a false gospel.

Ultimately, you're holding the view that "I have faith in Jesus... but I have to not sin or I lose my salvation" which is essentially the first view I described.

---

When you call not sinning a performance, you are boasting in your own works. God is not impressed by it. It's you who should be impressed by the grace he offers, and not take it for granted.

---

If you're taking the grace he offers, then like Paul says, when you add your own law-keeping to it, it's no longer grace and you've distorted the gospel.

Not sinning is a performance because it's Law keeping. Boasting comes from saying "I was able to keep my salvation because of my ability to not sin".

---

Your obedience adds absolutely nothing to God's grace. It would be arrogant to think otherwise.

---

Yes, exactly. Which is why salvation is by faith alone, not by obedience to sacraments or doing any works.

BUDOS said:

---

" No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work."

Well CP, I am not sure that I am ready to go that far. Perhaps his authoritarian tendencies, including his narcissistic Pharisee style behavior has led him to feel that the Holy Spirit has chosen him, and to hell with Paul's instructions on how we are to address each other and nonbelievers.

Obviously I have allowed him to cause me to stumble, at least for now. His habit of creating faults in a person's statements and/or misinterpreting them is frustrating enough. His common to double down on them when called out can be exasperating. Perhaps if we would just admit that he has been selected by the spirit for his task, we would allow ourselves to see the truth, as he defines it, often, but not always, cherry-picking scripture and presenting it in his context.
The hard part for me is knowing that I am to love him as a brother in Christ, even if he is completely convinced that it is us not him who is a bit misguided and sometimes misunderstood.
He has made contributions to the forum; unfortunately his approach, in my opinion, has resulted in more harm than good. Perhaps he will accept correction, one day. Perhaps.

Pending his response, perhaps we can get back to discussing Biblical issues in a manner befitting Christians, me included. But then maybe?

---

More of the same "he's the one with the problem, not me" detraction nonsense.

The fact remains that your "calling out" of my "misinterpretation" has been debunked, and that you are continuing to avoid the pertinent questions that reveal the problems with your beliefs. If they weren't a problem, there there'd be no reason to avoid them. This board has seen this diversion tactic numerous, numerous times.

from Galatians:

Quote:

---

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

"....O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish?.... Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion is not from him who calls you.....I wish those who unsettle you [those teaching a gospel of works] would emasculate themselves!"

---

^^^ Wow, what a narcissistic Pharisee!! That tone is doing a lot of damage to the body of Christ! He's serving the Father of lies! What an authoritarian! We need to address others in the manner that Paul instructed....

Oh, wait.....

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

---

The only thing people are seeing in your comment is that you're dodging the very important questions I've asked you.

I've asked them without any "bad tone" (unlike your comment here, ironically) so you can't use that as an excuse. I'll continue to wait.

---

No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work.

---

If you guys would just put as much mental energy and effort into addressing my points as you do in attacking me, maybe the discussion can actually go somewhere, and you guys wouldn't keep getting called out.

---

You've demonstrated ad nauseam that you aren't worth the effort. Keep up the "good" work.

BUDOS said:

---

" No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work."

Well CP, I am not sure that I am ready to go that far. Perhaps his authoritarian tendencies, including his narcissistic Pharisee style behavior has led him to feel that the Holy Spirit has chosen him, and to hell with Paul's instructions on how we are to address each other and nonbelievers.

Obviously I have allowed him to cause me to stumble, at least for now. His habit of creating faults in a person's statements and/or misinterpreting them is frustrating enough. His common to double down on them when called out can be exasperating. Perhaps if we would just admit that he has been selected by the spirit for his task, we would allow ourselves to see the truth, as he defines it, often, but not always, cherry-picking scripture and presenting it in his context.
The hard part for me is knowing that I am to love him as a brother in Christ, even if he is completely convinced that it is us not him who is a bit misguided and sometimes misunderstood.
He has made contributions to the forum; unfortunately his approach, in my opinion, has resulted in more harm than good. Perhaps he will accept correction, one day. Perhaps.

Pending his response, perhaps we can get back to discussing Biblical issues in a manner befitting Christians, me included. But then maybe?

---

He's been doing the same thing on this thread for 2 years running. I am not Roman Catholic (though I tilt AngloCatholic as an Episcopalian), so do not claim to speak authoritatively re Roman doctrine. That said, it doesn't take much to see BTD for the self righteous hypocrite of the worst kind that he is.

You know, Curtpenn, you hit on an important point I believe.

This thread has gone on for quite some time, and everyone has made their position clear. When we get to that place, we can start bickering on little things that for the most part don't matter, and you know no one changes their mind on these kinds of things, but most of us have done this at times ...

or we can take the topic into new ideas, maybe share some personal experience to add depth and perspective. I'm happy to say most of us also do that at times.

It's a good idea to build on common ground as fellow servants of Christ. I have some ideas, but want to post something worth reading.

Thanks Curtpenn. and especially to BUDOS for a courteous and constructive approach in this thread.

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

---

The only thing people are seeing in your comment is that you're dodging the very important questions I've asked you.

I've asked them without any "bad tone" (unlike your comment here, ironically) so you can't use that as an excuse. I'll continue to wait.

---

No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work.

---

If you guys would just put as much mental energy and effort into addressing my points as you do in attacking me, maybe the discussion can actually go somewhere, and you guys wouldn't keep getting called out.

---

You've demonstrated ad nauseam that you aren't worth the effort. Keep up the "good" work.

---

And yet, look at all the effort you guys put in.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

"Judgement" in the sense that one's eternal fate is decided based on what one has done. Jesus clearly tells us that believers will NOT be judged for this, because by believing they "will not be judged, but have crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24).

Christians will be judged to determine their rewards, not their salvation.

If you insist that the sheep and goats parable is about the judgement of ALL people, believers included, on whether or not they are saved, then you are saying that the Bible is teaching salvation based purely on works. This would put the Bible in contradiction. You're repeatedly avoiding/glossing over this major problem with your position. This is exactly what I was talking about with BUDOS, how you guys keep dodging the point. It makes for a very disingenuous discussion, and in order to keep you guys honest and focused, that's when the firm "tone" has to come out. BUDOS has decided that this effectively ends the conversation, which is a tactic he's using to avoid having to give an answer. So ditch the tactics and face reality. Deal with the main problem with your position, the contradiction, rather than focusing on a point about who's getting judged.

---

Actually NO. Because you are Hellbent (pardon the pun) on OSAS, you can't see that this is NOT the case. One CAN lose salvation with sin. You, yourself stated that if one loses faith they can lose salvation.

When one dies, he is judged. It's clear in the Gospel. The Judgement is either heaven (eventually) or Hell. There is NO such thing as OSAS. We have free will. We can throw away that gift of salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your Roman Catholic view that you have to keep your salvation by avoiding sin, is saying that your salvation is dependent on your performance and ability to keep the Law.

Paul CLEARLY teaches that once you add any performance requirement, you've removed grace. Paul CLEARLY calls this a false gospel and that anyone who promotes it is accursed. This was the whole point of his letter to the Galatians.

---

Sadly you misunderstand scripture here (again). Paul is discussing Works of the Mosaic Law (circumcision, the Ceremonial and Civil law.

Once again, when you finally understand that OSAS is FALSE and that once can lose salvation, the Bible makes perfect sense. You no longer have to twist scripture to fit your theology.

Please note that this isn't only a Catholic belief (although it dates back to the early Church). The Easter Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodist, Anglican, and Wesleyan reject OSAS. Why should ALL those Christians believe you?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Please don't play dumb, Coke Bear. You are well educated and certainly know what I meant. No purpose to getting into all that again unless you want a BTD-style bickerfest.

I respect the Roman Catholics and simply ask for the same in return.

That's also better for the purpose of moving ahead.

---

Sincerely, I ask what CRIMES were committed. I FULLY recognize that individuals in the Church were doing bad things that were NEVER authorized or approved by the Church (particularly selling of indulgences, bishops taking "romantic partners, etc.)

Those actions were NEVER sanctioned by the Church.

What I want to know (understand, study, etc.) is what CRIMES were committed by those in the Church in the 16th Century and were they every sanctioned by the Church.

I appreciate your respect for the Church.

Quite frankly what I appreciate more is your strong desire to keep the peace here in this forum. You and BUDOS are extremely patient contributors here the seem to promote harmony and ecumenicism.

I FULLY realize that Baylor is a Baptist school. I respect that and love that.

I went to UT for two years and then transferred back home to finish up school at BU.

I LOVED my time here because profs weren't afraid to "witness" or mention God in their classes.

This made me feel like I was at home.

Having said that, because I respect Baylor and it's Baptist heritage, I try to only respond in these forums when someone misrepresents (or insults) the Catholic faith.

If stated this quote many times and it's bear repeating again for Venerable Bishop Fulton J Sheen,

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."

I'm finishing his autobiography. He was an amazing and Holy man.

BUDOS said:

---

Coke Bear
Much of what you said during the first part of your post we are pretty much in sync.
Some of our views regarding salvation do appear to be similar; however, we do differ to a larger extent when it comes to Luther and Mary.

In my opinion, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Assembly of God, Presbyterians, and some others can all be Christians, even if we don't always agree on non-salvation issues. You and I don't agree some, partially agree on some and agree on others. That doesn't mean we will wind up in different places, as long as we are in line with Christ and follow Him and His teachings.

---

If you would ever like to discuss what the Church believes (actually) teaches about Mary, please contact me via PM. Like I stated earlier, I don't want to convert you. I only want to tell you what we really believe and teach - not what others say that we believe.

With respect to Luther, there are a variety of (quasi) non-biased scholars such as Roland Bainton, Heid=ko Oberman, Scott Hendrix, and Donald K McKim that can provide knowledge on him

Finally, if you want to discuss his "95 Theses" and the Catholic opinion on them, I'd be happy to address them.

Pax!

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Your Roman Catholic view that you have to keep your salvation by avoiding sin, is saying that your salvation is dependent on your performance and ability to keep the Law.

Paul CLEARLY teaches that once you add any performance requirement, you've removed grace. Paul CLEARLY calls this a false gospel and that anyone who promotes it is accursed. This was the whole point of his letter to the Galatians.

---

Sadly you misunderstand scripture here (again). Paul is discussing Works of the Mosaic Law (circumcision, the Ceremonial and Civil law.

Once again, when you finally understand that OSAS is FALSE and that once can lose salvation, the Bible makes perfect sense. You no longer have to twist scripture to fit your theology.

Please note that this isn't only a Catholic belief (although it dates back to the early Church). The Easter Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodist, Anglican, and Wesleyan reject OSAS. Why should ALL those Christians believe you?

---

If a performative ritual like circumcision voids the gospel of grace, then why wouldn't any other performative ritual like the sacraments be any different? Or any works? Paul is saying that the works of the Law won't save you. Sin is that which is against the Law. And here you are, saying that you can lose your salvation by sinning, i.e. by works of the Law.

You're failing to understand the concept that Paul is teaching. Do you honestly think that Paul would have lambasted the Galatians for thinking the works of the Law would save them, but then be perfectly okay with the idea that a NEW set of rules can save you?? It's the same legalism.

You keep repeating that OSAS is false, but you have never squared this belief with what the Bible teaches:

• "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39)
• the Holy Spirit is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14)
• believers can KNOW they are saved (1 John 5:13)

Oldbear83 said:

---

You know, Curtpenn, you hit on an important point I believe.

This thread has gone on for quite some time, and everyone has made their position clear. When we get to that place, we can start bickering on little things that for the most part don't matter, and you know no one changes their mind on these kinds of things, but most of us have done this at times ...

---

People getting the gospel wrong doesn't matter??
People not identifying clear heresy and idolatry doesn't matter?

"Nothing to see here, now let's move on to more deeper, personal experiences".
WOW.

Oldbear, earlier you said:

"This thread has gone on for quite some time, and everyone has made their position clear. When we get to that place, we can start bickering on little things that for the most part don't matter, and you know no one changes their mind on these kinds of things, but most of us have done this at times ...

or we can take the topic into new ideas, maybe share some personal experience to add depth and perspective. I'm happy to say most of us also do that at times.

It's a good idea to build on common ground as fellow servants of Christ. I have some ideas, but want to post something worth reading.

Thanks Curtpenn. and especially to BUDOS for a courteous and constructive approach in this thread.".


Oldbear, here's my response
(I am on a device that won't copy/paste)
Can't argue with your first point; however, although my religious beliefs may not have made major changes, there has been some posts which have strengthened specific facets and some which have made me question others. I have benefited in overall depth, including your comments.

I also am ready for new topics and new ideas, and perhaps sharing some personal experience to add depth and perspective.
Additionally I both admire and appreciate your discretionary language and humor in your last paragraphs. Tact seems to be something that we/I should practice much more often.
Too often we allow ourselves to get caught up in the storm and we allow ourselves to get caught up in it. Instead maybe we need to learn how to dance in the rain instead. (Which could just allow us more opportunities to focus on what comes after the storm of life.)

Following up on my earlier post, I had a thought from a well-known parable.

You remember the three servants who started with different amounts of money?

Jesus said (Matthew 25:14-30) that " the Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a long trip. He called together his servants and entrusted his money to them while he was gone. He gave five bags of silver to one, two bags of silver to another, and one bag of silver to the lastdividing it in proportion to their abilities. He then left on his trip."

You know, of course, how it played out. The first two produced gains according to their spirit, but also in proportion to the amount they started with. The other significant outcome is that the one who did nothing but bury his bag of silver, saw it given to the one who had the most to start with.

Jesus was clear that "To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "

On one level the meaning seems clear enough. But have you considered why the three servants got different amounts of silver to start? The scripture says each got money to handle in proportion to their abilities.

So, what we see is not only that the Master's judgment was sound, as the one who started with the most also gained the most, while the one given the least to start did the worst.

But all three were servants. All three were given a chance to prove themselves.

Suppose this parable was less about money and profit, and more about faith and opportunity. That is, we are all servants and we learn to live by God's grace and love.

The more we reflect God's grace in how we act in our lives, the more we please God, the more our faith grows, and the more profit we see in our efforts. Not financial profit, but in the greater business of building God's kingdom through demonstration of faith and obedience.

The last line is also relevant to certain debates we have seen here.

Having presented one rather obvious message from Jesus, I go on to consider the account in John where Jesus fed the five thousand (John 6:35-40), where Jesus says:

"Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But you haven't believed in me even though you have seen me. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."

What an amazing thing to read! Where in the last post I noted that Jesus was speaking of a worthless servant who lost what he had been given, and was cast out from his home, now I see Jesus confirming He would not lose even one of those saved from their sin.

I certainly do not believe Jesus would ever contradict Himself, nor change His mind on a matter so important. But these two passages help illustrate that there is more to consider than just quoting a passage we like and ignoring one we do not.

Here there is wisdom, but not so easily found that we don't have to search and pray that the Holy Spirit leads us to it.

I like the way you presented the parable about the talents, and to me it seems really plausible. That is one of the beautiful things about the Living Word, it can speak to us at different times and based upon the Holy Spirit, we can hear the same words we read at another time say something differently yet applicable to our current situation.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Following up on my earlier post, I had a thought from a well-known parable.

You remember the three servants who started with different amounts of money?

Jesus said (Matthew 25:14-30) that " the Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a long trip. He called together his servants and entrusted his money to them while he was gone. He gave five bags of silver to one, two bags of silver to another, and one bag of silver to the lastdividing it in proportion to their abilities. He then left on his trip."

You know, of course, how it played out. The first two produced gains according to their spirit, but also in proportion to the amount they started with. The other significant outcome is that the one who did nothing but bury his bag of silver, saw it given to the one who had the most to start with.

Jesus was clear that "To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "

On one level the meaning seems clear enough. But have you considered why the three servants got different amounts of silver to start? The scripture says each got money to handle in proportion to their abilities.

So, what we see is not only that the Master's judgment was sound, as the one who started with the most also gained the most, while the one given the least to start did the worst.

But all three were servants. All three were given a chance to prove themselves.

Suppose this parable was less about money and profit, and more about faith and opportunity. That is, we are all servants and we learn to live by God's grace and love.

The more we reflect God's grace in how we act in our lives, the more we please God, the more our faith grows, and the more profit we see in our efforts. Not financial profit, but in the greater business of building God's kingdom through demonstration of faith and obedience.

The last line is also relevant to certain debates we have seen here.

---

"Demonstration of faith and obedience" by believers is nice, but God's kingdom is only built when more people believe the gospel and come to faith in Jesus. So, the important question is this: what is that gospel? What exactly is it that they need to believe? You're telling us your understanding of the parable of the talents - does it mean that you believe people are saved to eternal life based on what good things they did with what they were given? Is that what you tell others?

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

"Judgement" in the sense that one's eternal fate is decided based on what one has done. Jesus clearly tells us that believers will NOT be judged for this, because by believing they "will not be judged, but have crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24).

Christians will be judged to determine their rewards, not their salvation.

If you insist that the sheep and goats parable is about the judgement of ALL people, believers included, on whether or not they are saved, then you are saying that the Bible is teaching salvation based purely on works. This would put the Bible in contradiction. You're repeatedly avoiding/glossing over this major problem with your position. This is exactly what I was talking about with BUDOS, how you guys keep dodging the point. It makes for a very disingenuous discussion, and in order to keep you guys honest and focused, that's when the firm "tone" has to come out. BUDOS has decided that this effectively ends the conversation, which is a tactic he's using to avoid having to give an answer. So ditch the tactics and face reality. Deal with the main problem with your position, the contradiction, rather than focusing on a point about who's getting judged.

---

Actually NO. Because you are Hellbent (pardon the pun) on OSAS, you can't see that this is NOT the case. One CAN lose salvation with sin. You, yourself stated that if one loses faith they can lose salvation.

When one dies, he is judged. It's clear in the Gospel. The Judgement is either heaven (eventually) or Hell. There is NO such thing as OSAS. We have free will. We can throw away that gift of salvation.

---

Have they explained Judas? Does their belief system of osas logically explain what happens to him if we assume he believed in jesus and had faith?

Or will they say, well, he never actually had "true faith" whatever that is?

Fre3dombear said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"Judgement" in the sense that one's eternal fate is decided based on what one has done. Jesus clearly tells us that believers will NOT be judged for this, because by believing they "will not be judged, but have crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24).

Christians will be judged to determine their rewards, not their salvation.

If you insist that the sheep and goats parable is about the judgement of ALL people, believers included, on whether or not they are saved, then you are saying that the Bible is teaching salvation based purely on works. This would put the Bible in contradiction. You're repeatedly avoiding/glossing over this major problem with your position. This is exactly what I was talking about with BUDOS, how you guys keep dodging the point. It makes for a very disingenuous discussion, and in order to keep you guys honest and focused, that's when the firm "tone" has to come out. BUDOS has decided that this effectively ends the conversation, which is a tactic he's using to avoid having to give an answer. So ditch the tactics and face reality. Deal with the main problem with your position, the contradiction, rather than focusing on a point about who's getting judged.

---

Actually NO. Because you are Hellbent (pardon the pun) on OSAS, you can't see that this is NOT the case. One CAN lose salvation with sin. You, yourself stated that if one loses faith they can lose salvation.

When one dies, he is judged. It's clear in the Gospel. The Judgement is either heaven (eventually) or Hell. There is NO such thing as OSAS. We have free will. We can throw away that gift of salvation.

---

Have they explained Judas? Does their belief system of osas logically explain what happens to him if we assume he believed in jesus and had faith?

Or will they say, well, he never actually had "true faith" whatever that is?

---

Why obsess over winning an argument?

I think Judas is worth discussion, but not as a token in some rhetorical game.

Fre3dombear said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"Judgement" in the sense that one's eternal fate is decided based on what one has done. Jesus clearly tells us that believers will NOT be judged for this, because by believing they "will not be judged, but have crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24).

Christians will be judged to determine their rewards, not their salvation.

If you insist that the sheep and goats parable is about the judgement of ALL people, believers included, on whether or not they are saved, then you are saying that the Bible is teaching salvation based purely on works. This would put the Bible in contradiction. You're repeatedly avoiding/glossing over this major problem with your position. This is exactly what I was talking about with BUDOS, how you guys keep dodging the point. It makes for a very disingenuous discussion, and in order to keep you guys honest and focused, that's when the firm "tone" has to come out. BUDOS has decided that this effectively ends the conversation, which is a tactic he's using to avoid having to give an answer. So ditch the tactics and face reality. Deal with the main problem with your position, the contradiction, rather than focusing on a point about who's getting judged.

---

Actually NO. Because you are Hellbent (pardon the pun) on OSAS, you can't see that this is NOT the case. One CAN lose salvation with sin. You, yourself stated that if one loses faith they can lose salvation.

When one dies, he is judged. It's clear in the Gospel. The Judgement is either heaven (eventually) or Hell. There is NO such thing as OSAS. We have free will. We can throw away that gift of salvation.

---

Have they explained Judas? Does their belief system of osas logically explain what happens to him if we assume he believed in jesus and had faith?

Or will they say, well, he never actually had "true faith" whatever that is?

---

He never believed. The Bible tells us this in John 6:63-64, by Jesus' own words:

"The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a performative ritual like circumcision voids the gospel of grace, then why wouldn't any other performative ritual like the sacraments be any different? Or any works? Paul is saying that the works of the Law won't save you. Sin is that which is against the Law. And here you are, saying that you can lose your salvation by sinning, i.e. by works of the Law.

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The twisting of scriptures here must make you dizzy. Paul is saying that the Works of the (Mosaic) law will NOT save you.

That is completely different from saying that committing a moral sin will lose your salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You're failing to understand the concept that Paul is teaching. Do you honestly think that Paul would have lambasted the Galatians for thinking the works of the Law would save them, but then be perfectly okay with the idea that a NEW set of rules can save you?? It's the same legalism.

---

I never said that works of the (Mosaic) could save you.

You keep repeating that OSAS is false, but you have never squared this belief with what the Bible teaches:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39)

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Believers still have to cooperate with God's grace. Salvations is a gift that requires faith, repentance, and obedience.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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the Holy Spirit is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14)

---

The actual passage is:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory.

We still have free will. We can reject God by committing a mortal sin. We still have to preserve in faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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believers can KNOW they are saved (1 John 5:13)

---

1 John 5:13 actually says
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We still have to have obedience to God. If you no longer obey Him, you will no go to heaven.

Matt 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If a performative ritual like circumcision voids the gospel of grace, then why wouldn't any other performative ritual like the sacraments be any different? Or any works? Paul is saying that the works of the Law won't save you. Sin is that which is against the Law. And here you are, saying that you can lose your salvation by sinning, i.e. by works of the Law.

---

The twisting of scriptures here must make you dizzy. Paul is saying that the Works of the (Mosaic) law will NOT save you.

That is completely different from saying that committing a moral sin will lose your salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You're failing to understand the concept that Paul is teaching. Do you honestly think that Paul would have lambasted the Galatians for thinking the works of the Law would save them, but then be perfectly okay with the idea that a NEW set of rules can save you?? It's the same legalism.

---

I never said that works of the (Mosaic) could save you.

You keep repeating that OSAS is false, but you have never squared this belief with what the Bible teaches:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39)

---

Believers still have to cooperate with God's grace. Salvations is a gift that requires faith, repentance, and obedience.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

the Holy Spirit is a SEAL and GUARANTEE of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14)

---

The actual passage is:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory.

We still have free will. We can reject God by committing a mortal sin. We still have to preserve in faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

believers can KNOW they are saved (1 John 5:13)

---

1 John 5:13 actually says
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We still have to have obedience to God. If you no longer obey Him, you will no go to heaven.

Matt 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

---

A mortal sin ultimately involves breaking God's Law. Therefore, saying that breaking God's Law makes you lose your salvation is saying that salvation depends on keeping the Law, a view which the Bible calls accursed.

We "cooperate" with God's grace by receiving it in faith; NOT by performing things or by keeping the Law.

If salvation is a "gift" that requires obedience, then it is not a gift.

Notice that Ephesians 1:13-14 says that you're saved upon belief - NOT by performing anything like baptism/sacraments/obedience! And notice that nowhere does Paul say that a "mortal sin" makes you lose your salvation.

1 John 5:13 does not say anything about obedience being required for salvation. Matthew 7 is Jesus talking to the Jews, BEFORE he died on the cross. And the "will of the Father" was that they believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Hebrews talks about the "knowledge" of the truth, but rejection of it, i.e. not believing it. You're recycling defeated points.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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A mortal sin ultimately involves breaking God's Law. Therefore, saying that breaking God's Law makes you lose your salvation is saying that salvation depends on keeping the Law, a view which the Bible calls accursed.

---

1 John 5:16-17 distinguishes between sins that lead to death and those that don't.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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We "cooperate" with God's grace by receiving it in faith; NOT by performing things or by keeping the Law.

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So as long as we keep our faith in Jesus, we can do whatever we want and not lose salvation?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If salvation is a "gift" that requires obedience, then it is not a gift.

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One can reject a gift. If I gave my son a car and told him that he could drive out of state until he was older, he could reject the car altogether.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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[Notice that Ephesians 1:13-14 says that you're saved upon belief - NOT by performing anything like baptism/sacraments/obedience! And notice that nowhere does Paul say that a "mortal sin" makes you lose your salvation.

---

In Galatians 5, Paul is addressing believers.

Verse 4 - you have FALLEN from grace.
Verses 19-21 -

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 11:22 - Paul tells the Gentiles to "remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off."

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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1 John 5:13 does not say anything about obedience being required for salvation. Matthew 7 is Jesus talking to the Jews, BEFORE he died on the cross. And the "will of the Father" was that they believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Hebrews talks about the "knowledge" of the truth, but rejection of it, i.e. not believing it. You're recycling defeated points.

---

Are you implying that Matt 7:21 only applies AFTER he died? This may be the most ridiculous argument that you've put forward. Of course he was talking to Jew BEFORE he died; however, his death wasn't the qualifier for his argument.

Please find a scholar that supports this claim.

For fun, I asked Google "what does Matt 7:21 mean" and this is what it returned -

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven..."
This highlights that simply claiming to be a follower or calling Jesus "Lord" is not sufficient for salvation. It's a warning against a superficial understanding of faith.

"...but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
This emphasizes that true discipleship requires actively obeying God's will and living a life that reflects that obedience.

"I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
This emphasizes that even those who claim to know Jesus or perform miraculous works in his name will be rejected if they don't follow his teachings and live a life pleasing to God.

In essence, Jesus is warning against self-deception and emphasizing that true faith involves both outward profession and inward obedience to God's will.

Please find a source (in context) prior to the 16th century to support the OSAS position.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

"Judgement" in the sense that one's eternal fate is decided based on what one has done. Jesus clearly tells us that believers will NOT be judged for this, because by believing they "will not be judged, but have crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24).

Christians will be judged to determine their rewards, not their salvation.

If you insist that the sheep and goats parable is about the judgement of ALL people, believers included, on whether or not they are saved, then you are saying that the Bible is teaching salvation based purely on works. This would put the Bible in contradiction. You're repeatedly avoiding/glossing over this major problem with your position. This is exactly what I was talking about with BUDOS, how you guys keep dodging the point. It makes for a very disingenuous discussion, and in order to keep you guys honest and focused, that's when the firm "tone" has to come out. BUDOS has decided that this effectively ends the conversation, which is a tactic he's using to avoid having to give an answer. So ditch the tactics and face reality. Deal with the main problem with your position, the contradiction, rather than focusing on a point about who's getting judged.

---

Actually NO. Because you are Hellbent (pardon the pun) on OSAS, you can't see that this is NOT the case. One CAN lose salvation with sin. You, yourself stated that if one loses faith they can lose salvation.

When one dies, he is judged. It's clear in the Gospel. The Judgement is either heaven (eventually) or Hell. There is NO such thing as OSAS. We have free will. We can throw away that gift of salvation.

---

Have they explained Judas? Does their belief system of osas logically explain what happens to him if we assume he believed in jesus and had faith?

Or will they say, well, he never actually had "true faith" whatever that is?

---

Why obsess over winning an argument?

I think Judas is worth discussion, but not as a token in some rhetorical game.

---

Just as a case study to tracer bullet the thought. Countless other examples. It makes no logical sense to me given the numerous verses ive posted and many many passages ive shared written by people that were around 1500-2000 years ago

Ultimately, if it is somehow right, all it means is my extra effort and concern was in vain, but poses no risk to my soul.

Its never been about winning an argument. Its about hearing "well done good and faithful servant"

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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curtpenn said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Or we may just be tired of putting up with you, your tone, how you assume you know what we said and believe, as you so often parse and misinterpret our words, and your high and mighty attitude which you rationalize away to soothe your ego. Of it may just be me. I rewrote this a couple of times but finally decided saying this way, would make it easier for you to understand, as it seems to be similar to your language.

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The only thing people are seeing in your comment is that you're dodging the very important questions I've asked you.

I've asked them without any "bad tone" (unlike your comment here, ironically) so you can't use that as an excuse. I'll continue to wait.

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No, people are seeing that you continue to be an asshat serving the Father of Lies nonstop for at least a couple of years. I'm sure Jesus is proud of your work.

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If you guys would just put as much mental energy and effort into addressing my points as you do in attacking me, maybe the discussion can actually go somewhere, and you guys wouldn't keep getting called out.

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You've demonstrated ad nauseam that you aren't worth the effort. Keep up the "good" work.

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And yet, look at all the effort you guys put in.

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And yet look at all the effort you put in. I've learned you aren't worth more than the occasional drive by post every few months to point out your ongoing hypocrisy and BS. And yet hope springs eternal that you will eventually tire of attacking the bride of Christ and take His priestly prayer to heart.

"Its never been about winning an argument. Its about hearing "well done good and faithful servant"

Given the tone of some posts, it seems more like the desire is to hear 'wow, you sure put him in his place. You are really smart!'

Seems to me a good and faithful servant to our Lord would seem more like Job and less like Caiaphas.

Oldbear83 said:

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"Its never been about winning an argument. Its about hearing "well done good and faithful servant"

Given the tone of some posts, it seems more like the desire is to hear 'wow, you sure put him in his place. You are really smart!'

Seems to me a good and faithful servant to our Lord would seem more like Job and less like Caiaphas.

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Maybe youre projecting?

I entered this topic as i do on other forums with an intent to learn, share, sharpen the saw.

You seem desperate to make me a BTD pharisee who i sniffed out in a day and summarily blocked as a result.

Ill leave the pious judgement to him / her and others. I have enough other stuff on my soul but if i am
Osas i have nothing to fear.

"Maybe youre projecting?"

Maybe, but I think it's hard to reconcile 'if someone strikes your cheek, offer him the other one' with 'Jesus wants me to smack down this guy on the internet forum'.

And by the way, I am hardly perfect but have not sold the OSAS notion in this thread. If you look at my posts from yesterday, you may notice I quoted the passage in Matthew where one of the servants proved 'worthless' and not only saw what he had given to another, but he was 'cast into the outer darkness'.

But maybe some people only notice posts they like, or ones they can attack to score points.