Realitybites said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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This is how some abuse the Bible. Take a verse, make it say what you want and ignore anything and everything that weakens or opposes your point.

If all you have is one verse for your point, you are not sharing the Word of God, you are selling the Opinion of You.

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The verse is quite clear. The old covenant is *obsolete* and has passed away. You don't agree with John Hagee that Jews maintain a secret handshake with God that bypasses Jesus, do you?

Christian Zionists throw around "antisemite" like Democrats throw around "racist".

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No one gets to heaven without Jesus, not even Jews. John 14:6 and many other verses are absolutely clear about that. This does not mean that Jews have no hope. There are many Messianic Jews and there will be more before end times.

I don't understand how anyone has problems with John 3:16. There is nothing ambiguous or confusing about it.

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No one gets to heaven without Jesus, not even Jews. John 14:6 and many other verses are absolutely clear about that. This does not mean that Jews have no hope.

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Apart from Christ, Jews have no hope.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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No one gets to heaven without Jesus, not even Jews. John 14:6 and many other verses are absolutely clear about that. This does not mean that Jews have no hope.

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Apart from Christ, Jews have no hope.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

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Exactly. Their hope is in recognizing who Jesus is. They are called messianic Jews for a reason.

historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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No one gets to heaven without Jesus, not even Jews. John 14:6 and many other verses are absolutely clear about that. This does not mean that Jews have no hope.

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Apart from Christ, Jews have no hope.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

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Exactly. Their hope is in recognizing who Jesus is. They are called messianic Jews for a reason.

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Messianic Jews are Christians.

Jewish organizations inside and outside of Israel reject your characterization of them as Jewish. In fact, The Supreme Court of Israel declared Messianic Judaism a Christian sect for purposes of the Law of Return.

"Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith." (Hebrews 13:7)

Gonna post on the Covenant, but I can't help but wonder who knows the answer to this one:

How many different Covenants are mentioned in the Bible?

Realitybites said:

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historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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No one gets to heaven without Jesus, not even Jews. John 14:6 and many other verses are absolutely clear about that. This does not mean that Jews have no hope.

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Apart from Christ, Jews have no hope.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

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Exactly. Their hope is in recognizing who Jesus is. They are called messianic Jews for a reason.

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Messianic Jews are Christians.

Jewish organizations inside and outside of Israel reject your characterization of them as Jewish. In fact, The Supreme Court of Israel declared Messianic Judaism a Christian sect for purposes of the Law of Return.

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True. Messianic Jews are Christian's. But, like Christ, they were Jews first.

Oldbear83 said:

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Gonna post on the Covenant, but I can't help but wonder who knows the answer to this one:

How many different Covenants are mentioned in the Bible?

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It depends on how you look at it: God established a covenant with Abraham and repeated it with him and later with his descendants. One can look at the covenant with Mosaic law as an extension of that since the people were still Abraham's descendants of one can look at it as a new one. The there is the new covenant under Jesus Christ. We are not bound by all the rituals and details of Mosaic law with animal sacrifices and such because Christ paid the ultimate price once and for all. He is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world", as John the Baptist proclaimed.

There were other covenants established between two humans at different times. I cannot recall how often the OT uses that word to describe Abraham's contracts with others, for example, but the word might apply. Obviously, those are different. The word "covenant" has special meaning which is why it was used in the Mayflower Compact.

I meant Covenants authored by God. Here's a hint: the first Covenant with God was not Abraham.

Wonder who can name it without looking it up?

Btw, there are 332 uses of the word Covenant in Scripture.

Agreed

Six, possibly seven. What is your point?

Realitybites said:

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Six, possibly seven. What is your point?

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Notice what they have in common?

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet

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Notice what they have in common?

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All but one of them are either fulfilled (past tenst) or no longer valid.

Realitybites said:

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Notice what they have in common?

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All but one of them are either fulfilled (past tenst) or no longer valid.

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Wrong.

God's Covenant with Noah

Genesis 9:12 "12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come"

God's Covenant with Abraham

Genesis 17:7 "7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. "

Judges 2:1 "The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you"

Hebrews 8:13 should never be read without consideration of the rest of the book. Consider 9:15 for example. And the idea that Scripture should be ignored or considered false … there lies real peril.

That's why I said "fulfilled" or "no longer valid".

Realitybites said:

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'That's why I said "fulfilled" or "no longer valid".

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Which is still wrong.


'Everlasting' does not mean 'until I feel like ignoring it'

And by the way, did you forget that Paul wrote that we Gentiles only have part in this because Christ grafted us into the vine of the promise to Abraham?

Oldbear83 said:

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And by the way, did you forget that Paul wrote that we Gentiles only have part in this because Christ grafted us into the vine of the promise to Abraham?

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And after the rapture of the Church, Israel will be grafted back in.

Psalm 89 is pretty clear about God's covenant with David and His people.

Oldbear83 said:

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And by the way, did you forget that Paul wrote that we Gentiles only have part in this because Christ grafted us into the vine of the promise to Abraham?

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You continually conflate the unconditional covenant with Abraham which was fulfilled in ways he couldn't even begin to imagine with the conditional Mosaic covenant. You do realize that Abraham, originating as he did from Ur, was not Jewish right? He met with Melchizidek, not members of a Levitical priesthood. Judaism and Israel did not exist in the time of Abraham.

The verse I cite from Hebrews is referring to to the Mosaic covenant, not the Abrahamic one. Christ is our high priest in the order of Melchizedek and we have been grafted into that...not the Mosaic covenant of the Jews, which is now, as scripture calls it, obsolete.

I will never understand your personal devotion to insisting that the descendants of the Pharisees somehow have special status despite trying to follow the now obsolete Mosaic covenant.

Maybe too much time reading Hal Lindsey and Left Behind.

UFRI has been busy at work on a lot of pressing issues.............

- uncle fred

Soon - Dale AI will be released!!!!

D!

Dale AI: The Future ..........

........... was then.

I quoted Scripture, while you?

One of the great comforts about God's Covenants, is that they do not expire, nor become obsolete, nor does God forget His promises.

In fact, if you pay attention to what God told Abraham, God expanded His Covenant to add more and more blessings to Abraham and his descendants, by which the whole world was blessed.

Taking single verses and trying to say they disprove everything else? That is where the Pharisee comes in, sir.

historian said:

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Psalm 89 is pretty clear about God's covenant with David and His people.

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God's promise to David and his descendants in Psalm 89 (NIV):

27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29 I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.
30 "If his sons forsake my law
and do not follow my statutes,
31 if they violate my decrees
and fail to keep my commands,
32 I will punish their sin with the rod,
their iniquity with flogging;
33 but I will not take my love from him,
nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.
34 I will not violate my covenant
or alter what my lips have uttered.

As a bonus, it includes a prophecy about Jesus Christ!

Oldbear83 said:

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One of the great comforts about God's Covenants, is that they do not expire, nor become obsolete,

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"In that He says, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Hebrews 8:13.

Unfortunate that you chose to directly contradict scripture.

So a direct yes/no question.

Is the Mosaic Covenant obsolete?

Realitybites said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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One of the great comforts about God's Covenants, is that they do not expire, nor become obsolete,

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"In that He says, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Hebrews 8:13.

Unfortunate that you chose to directly contradict scripture.

So a direct yes/no question.

Is the Mosaic Covenant obsolete?

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Already answered.

Why do you deny what Scripture plainly says?

To put it another way, did God's Covenant with Abraham make HIs Covenant with Noah "obsolete"?

Or did God's Covenant with Phinehas make His Covenant with Abraham "obsolete"?

When God says "Everlasting", where does it say God was confused or lied?

When Paul wrote in Romans 11:11-24 that we Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant through God's grace, bear in mind that he warned us " do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you." (verse 18)

Paul goes on to explain:

" I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved." Romans 11:25-26

That is, Paul explains that it is God's Covenant with Abraham which is made open to all of us, and in this way all Israel will be saved, which in turn confirms God's promise to Abraham.

It is true that we stand by faith, where those of the earlier Covenant put their place in peril through unbelief. That is what the verse in Hebrews means; we are offered mercy in place of condemnation, which is an improvement just as God made a number of improvements in His promises.

But remember also what Paul wrote in verse 32 of that chapter:

" For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Once again, the Bible directly calls the *Mosaic* covenant obsolete in Hebrews. There is no getting around that. Your evading the direct question is the result of Judaizing and a false eschatology. Trying to shift the focus of the discussion to Abraham is irrelevant.

Where do you imagine the 'Mosaic' Covenant came from?

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Please read this first post if you haven't yet

Oldbear83 said:

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Where do you imagine the 'Mosaic' Covenant came from?

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Moses and the giving of the Law

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Where do you imagine the 'Mosaic' Covenant came from?

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Moses and the giving of the Law

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Moses gave himself his own Covenant?

Don't recall that in Scripture. Is that in RC doctrine?

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Where do you imagine the 'Mosaic' Covenant came from?

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Moses and the giving of the Law

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Moses gave himself his own Covenant?

Don't recall that in Scripture. Is that in RC doctrine?

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Of course not. God gave Moses the Covenant. I don't follow RC Sproll of that's who you are referring to. I am a Dispensationalist. RC is a Reformed Theologian.