How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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Realitybites
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A recommendation for everyone, Roman Catholic or not.

The Imitation of Christ, written by Thomas Kempis in the early 15th century, originated in a monastery in the Netherlands where Kempis served as a monk. Originally crafted as guidance for young monks, the book has since transcended its monastic roots, becoming a global spiritual classic revered for its deep insights into devotion and the human soul's journey towards God.

Written around 400 years after the Great Schism, it contains much of the Wisdom from our own Orthodox Ladder of Divine Ascent, and predates the innovations of Vatican 2.

https://www.amazon.com/Imitation-Christ-Masterpiece-Illustrated-Devotional/dp/1068801239/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

xfrodobagginsx
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Psalm 4:8 KJV
[8] I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: For thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.

Oldbear83
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Well, you certainly dodged the point.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Waco1947
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xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.
4th and Inches
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Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.
I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
xfrodobagginsx
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Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.


He was giving instructions to Kingdom age believers. This is future from the Church age, which we are in:

Matthew 13:44-50, 52 KJV
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. [45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: [46] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. [47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: [48] which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. [49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

historian
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One of the beautiful aspects of scripture is that it is filled with wisdom and truths for everybody and serving multiple purposes. That's especially true of longer passages like the Sermon on the Mount. But even a single verse can move one person one way and another person in a totally different manner and both can be accurate. That's one reason we know it comes from God: He uses it daily in the lives of millions of individuals based on His plans for each one of us.
xfrodobagginsx
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Christ's Word divides the sheep from the goats, the wheat and the Tares, the Believers and the Non Believers.
xfrodobagginsx
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.
Waco1947
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4th and Inches said:

Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.

I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

I agree
Waco1947
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xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.


He was giving instructions to Kingdom age believers. This is future from the Church age, which we are in:

Matthew 13:44-50, 52 KJV
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. [45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: [46] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. [47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: [48] which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. [49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.



Jesus said the kingdom is "in breaking" , not fully here, but on its way. P.S. Jesus speaks in the present tense
xfrodobagginsx
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Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.


He was giving instructions to Kingdom age believers. This is future from the Church age, which we are in:

Matthew 13:44-50, 52 KJV
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. [45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: [46] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. [47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: [48] which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. [49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.



Jesus said the kingdom is "in breaking" , not fully here, but on its way. P.S. Jesus speaks in the present tense


Because the Kingdom of heaven WAS here at that time because the King was in their midst. REPENT! REPENT! for the Kingdom of Heven is at hand! It should have been rendered "In your midst". REPENT! REPENT! For the Kindom of heaven is in your midst! Why? Because the King was in their midst. Had Israel accepted their Messiah, He would have set up His Kingdom here on earth at that time. But they rejcted Him. His instructions were for the kingdom age that will come when He returns physically to the Earth again.
Realitybites
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xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:

xfrodobagginsx said:

Waco1947 said:




The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.


He was giving instructions to Kingdom age believers. This is future from the Church age, which we are in:

Matthew 13:44-50, 52 KJV
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. [45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: [46] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. [47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: [48] which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. [49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.



Jesus said the kingdom is "in breaking" , not fully here, but on its way. P.S. Jesus speaks in the present tense


Because the Kingdom of heaven WAS here at that time because the King was in their midst. REPENT! REPENT! for the Kingdom of Heven is at hand! It should have been rendered "In your midst". REPENT! REPENT! For the Kindom of heaven is in your midst! Why? Because the King was in their midst. Had Israel accepted their Messiah, He would have set up His Kingdom here on earth at that time. But they rejcted Him. His instructions were for the kingdom age that will come when He returns physically to the Earth again.

Jesus "said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:20-21.

I'm afraid you've fallen into the same trap that the Pharisees did, except you've added an Ancient Aliens twist to it. Jesus is coming back to at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead, not to set up a 1000 year reign on this earth. That isn't the plan, that was never the plan. This teaching is called Chiliasm and has been universally rejected by Christendom except for the last 150 years.
historian
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Revelation 20 describes Christ's 1,000 reign with Satan locked up in the bottomless pit. After this millennium, Satan will be released awhile and he will once again deceive the nations. A vast army will march on Jerusalem but be destroyed by God. Then there will be the Great White Throne Judgment. This chapter is quite clear about these things.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Realitybites
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historian said:

Revelation 20 describes Christ's 1,000 reign with Satan locked up in the bottomless pit. After this millennium, Satan will be released awhile and he will once again deceive the nations. A vast army will march on Jerusalem but be destroyed by God. Then there will be the Great White Throne Judgment. This chapter is quite clear about these things.


Your and xfrodo's misunderstandings about that chapter are driven by premillenial dispensational eschatology.



That's a pretty good takedown of that view by a Calvinist, using scripture to interpret scripture.
historian
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No misunderstanding at all, a simple reading of the text. I don't need a video to explain God's word when it is so clear. Have you considered that maybe you misunderstand it?
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Realitybites
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historian said:

No misunderstanding at all, a simple reading of the text. I don't need a video to explain God's word when it is so clear. Have you considered that maybe you misunderstand it?

The text is interpreted by the text, yes?

So you cannot disregard the rest of the Bible when seeking the meaning of Revelation 20.

However, you appear to be allergic to that to the point of not watching a video based entirely on scripture that contradicts your preferred point of view.

I actually thought premillenial dispensationalism was correct after I first got saved.

It was only after decades of in depth study that I realized that it, the rapture, OSAS and age of accountability doctrine was false.
Oldbear83
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One person points to Scripture, another says I must trust his opinion.

When Scripture is clear, and it usually is clear, so is the choice.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Coke Bear
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historian said:

No misunderstanding at all, a simple reading of the text. I don't need a video to explain God's word when it is so clear. Have you considered that maybe you misunderstand it?
Forgive me, but are you claiming the the "millennium" in Rev 20 can be figured out by "a simple reading of the text?"

It is one of the most debated passages in all of Christian eschatology.
historian
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Certain details about the millennium are confusing but the facts that it will happen, it will last 1,000 years, and the basic character of it are clear from scripture. I don't pretend to know and understand everything about end times prophecy. Nobody does. Only God knows. I understand enough to know the basics of what will happen (not necessarily the chronology) and I trust God will take care of the details.

It's silly to debate such details since there is confusion and disagreement about it. More importantly, the point of prophecy (& all of scripture) is to focus our attention on Christ not to worry about the details of God's plans for the future.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Coke Bear
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historian said:

Certain details about the millennium are confusing but the facts that it will happen, it will last 1,000 years, and the basic character of it are clear from scripture. I don't pretend to know and understand everything about end times prophecy. Nobody does. Only God knows. I understand enough to know the basics of what will happen (not necessarily the chronology) and I trust God will take care of the details.

It's silly to debate such details since there is confusion and disagreement about it. More importantly, the point of prophecy (& all of scripture) is to focus our attention on Christ not to worry about the details of God's plans for the future.
Interesting. Do you believe in the literal 144,000 that will be marked with the seal?

If so, will you be part of the 144K?
historian
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I believe the 144k in Revelation 7 might be literal and I might not be a part of it. It's literally only 12k from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. I'm not Jewish and, so far as I know, not descended from any of the 12 tribes. It's also those who are sealed, presumably for a specific purpose.

It's also possible that this is symbolic. That's the thing with apocryphal scriptures. They are one part of the Bible that often might not be literal or only to an extent.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Coke Bear
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historian said:

I believe the 144k in Revelation 7 might be literal and I might not be a part of it. It's literally only 12k from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. I'm not Jewish and, so far as I know, not descended from any of the 12 tribes. It's also those who are sealed, presumably for a specific purpose.

It's also possible that this is symbolic. That's the thing with apocryphal scriptures. They are one part of the Bible that often might not be literal or only to an extent.
If it's symbolic, is it possible that the 1000 years is symbolic?
4th and Inches
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Coke Bear said:

historian said:

Certain details about the millennium are confusing but the facts that it will happen, it will last 1,000 years, and the basic character of it are clear from scripture. I don't pretend to know and understand everything about end times prophecy. Nobody does. Only God knows. I understand enough to know the basics of what will happen (not necessarily the chronology) and I trust God will take care of the details.

It's silly to debate such details since there is confusion and disagreement about it. More importantly, the point of prophecy (& all of scripture) is to focus our attention on Christ not to worry about the details of God's plans for the future.
Interesting. Do you believe in the literal 144,000 that will be marked with the seal?

If so, will you be part of the 144K?

the 144k specifically comes from the 12 tribes.. its not all people
historian
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I think the 144,000 represent the Jews who will be saved during the Tribulation. It's almost certainly literal. It's a pretty precise number.

I see no reason to look at the 1,000 years as anything but literal.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
xfrodobagginsx
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4th and Inches said:

Coke Bear said:

historian said:

Certain details about the millennium are confusing but the facts that it will happen, it will last 1,000 years, and the basic character of it are clear from scripture. I don't pretend to know and understand everything about end times prophecy. Nobody does. Only God knows. I understand enough to know the basics of what will happen (not necessarily the chronology) and I trust God will take care of the details.

It's silly to debate such details since there is confusion and disagreement about it. More importantly, the point of prophecy (& all of scripture) is to focus our attention on Christ not to worry about the details of God's plans for the future.
Interesting. Do you believe in the literal 144,000 that will be marked with the seal?

If so, will you be part of the 144K?

the 144k specifically comes from the 12 tribes.. its not all people


True, but they aren't the only people who end up in heaven as the Jehovah Witnesses falsely and unBiblically claim.
historian
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Exactly
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Coke Bear
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historian said:

I think the 144,000 represent the Jews who will be saved during the Tribulation. It's almost certainly literal. It's a pretty precise number.

I see no reason to look at the 1,000 years as anything but literal.
As a historian do you find it interesting that the pre-millennialism view, its dispensational form, didn't really exist until the 19th-century when Darby popularized it?

In fact, the Church rejected this view by the 5th century. Most view us living in the millennium now.

When Jesus comes back, it's the 2nd and last time.

Finally, I find it very interest that you find the "1000 years" literal in a book that has the most symbolisms and most polyvalent views.


historian
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It makes no sense to suggest we are living in the millennium now. When did it begin? According to Revelation, during this time Jesus will rule the world directly while Satan is bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit. Neither of those things are part of our current reality, clearly.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Coke Bear
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historian said:

It makes no sense to suggest we are living in the millennium now. When did it begin? According to Revelation, during this time Jesus will rule the world directly while Satan is bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit. Neither of those things are part of our current reality, clearly.

Debate about when Christ's reign began is split between three times: Incarnation, Passion, and Pentecost. The defined exact moment that it started is inconsequential. It is the Church Age.

Jesus is ruling the world right now. The Gospel has spread throughout the world despite the many persecutions that have threatened Christianity.

Satan and death have been conquered. John 12:31 says,

"Now the rule of this world will be driven out."

Satan's "binding" doesn't mean that he is powerless or inactive. It means that his ultimate power over the nations - the ability to prevent the Gospel from reaching all peoples - has been decisively broken by the Cross and Resurrection.

The 1000 year is not literal. The number 1000 in scripture and in Jewish apocalyptic literature is a symbol of completeness and divine perfection - 10 X 10 X 10 - a fullness of time.

The whole Rapture movement was made up in the 19th century by Darby and popularized with the Left Behind books and movies.

Even Kirk Cameron has walked back these movies and rejected the dispensationalism views.

historian
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Satan has not been chained and cast into a bottomless pit. He still is very influential in the world today. One only need to look at all the obvious evil that has happened over the past 100 years (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc), the last 25 years (9-11, October 7, etc), or the moral decline of the west today (the sacrifice of tens of millions of babies, the trans cult, the climate cult, etc).

The idea of the rapture predates the Left Behind books by decades. Those books are from the 1990s (I read all 12) and I remember talk of it in the 1970s. Actually, it has its basis in scripture that's 2,000 years old. Although the word is not used in modern translations, the idea is explicit in Matthew 24, I Thessalonians 4, & other scriptures.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Coke Bear
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historian said:

Satan has not been chained and cast into a bottomless pit. He still is very influential in the world today. One only need to look at all the obvious evil that has happened over the past 100 years (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc), the last 25 years (9-11, October 7, etc), or the moral decline of the west today (the sacrifice of tens of millions of babies, the trans cult, the climate cult, etc).
It seems like you are taking a literal interpretation of Satan being "bound and chained and cast into a bottomless pit."

Satan doesn't have a body. None of the angels do. They are pure spirits. This passage, like most of Revelation, is filled with symbolism. ONE of the meanings is that Satan cannot stop the Gospel from being claimed throughout the world.

Amlillennialists believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth to the end.

historian said:

The idea of the rapture predates the Left Behind books by decades. Those books are from the 1990s (I read all 12) and I remember talk of it in the 1970s. Actually, it has its basis in scripture that's 2,000 years old. Although the word is not used in modern translations, the idea is explicit in Matthew 24, I Thessalonians 4, & other scriptures.
Correct, the rapture does predate the books. It was popularized by John Nelson Darby around 1830 and later spread through the Scofield Reference Bible.

No Church father, no medieval theologian, nor Reformer taught it.

Matthew 24 is not about the "rapture." Jesus gives his response concerning the disciple's questions about the destruction of the Temple.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
This is the common dispensationalism misunderstanding that this is the rapture. It certainly sounds good, but it is not the case.

The key Greek word here is (apantsis) translated as "to meet."

Apantsis was a specific, well-known Greek technical term for a civic custom practiced throughout the ancient Greco-Roman world. Here is exactly what it described:

When a king, emperor, or dignitary was approaching a city, the citizens would go OUT of the city to meet him and then escort him BACK INTO the city in a great procession of honor.

The people did not go out to meet him and then stay outside. The whole point of apantsis was to welcome the arriving dignitary and bring him home.

We see this in
Matt 25:1-6 in the parable of the Ten Virgins going out and escorting back the bridegroom.
Acts 28-15 - "The brothers heard about us and came from as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us." The Roman Christians went OUT of Rome to meet Paul on the road and then accompanied him BACK INTO Rome.
Matt 21:1-11 The crowds go OUT of Jerusalem to meet Jesus coming down from the Mount of Olives and escort Him INTO the city. Again apantsis.

Essentially, the passages like 1 Thess 4 are describing the Second Coming of Jesus, not a rapture.

Finally, we passages discuss those taken and those left behind (Matt 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-36) . We WANT to be left behind. Luke clarifies this in verse 37:

"Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." We don't want to go where the vultures are. That's a place of rotting flesh.

historian
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You are so caught up in the difference between literal and figurative interpretation of scripture the result is trying to limit the power of God. If the angels could physically appear to biblical characters like Mary or Jacob (he wrestled with one) then God can certainly put chains on Satan and imprison him.

Besides, the more one interprets the Bible figuratively, the more it is likely that's power and message is watered down. That can easily lead to doubting God or rationalizing His commands and other pronouncements.

I think most of the Bible should be interpreted literally and it's usually obvious when it is not appropriate. Examples include Jesus saying that He was a gate or John the Baptist calling Him "the Lamb of God." Other examples are in the apocalyptic prophecies which might just be ancient humans trying to describe a very different world in the only way they can.

Prophecy in scripture describes the saved meeting Jesus in the sky when He returns, first those who died in Christ then those who are alive. This is the Rapture and I see no reason not to interpret it literally. The people will not be going out of a city to mean someone, they will be brought up into the sky miraculously by an omnipotent God.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
Coke Bear
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historian said:

You are so caught up in the difference between literal and figurative interpretation of scripture the result is trying to limit the power of God. If the angels could physically appear to biblical characters like Mary or Jacob (he wrestled with one) then God can certainly put chains on Satan and imprison him.
You are correct. God COULD do this. It is not logically contradictory. But at the same time, Satan is stronger and smarter than any human. Where would this "pit" be?

I'll trust the Church that rejected the pre-millennium view more than 1600 years ago.

historian said:

Besides, the more one interprets the Bible figuratively, the more it is likely that's power and message is watered down. That can easily lead to doubting God or rationalizing His commands and other pronouncements.

I think most of the Bible should be interpreted literally and it's usually obvious when it is not appropriate. Examples include Jesus saying that He was a gate or John the Baptist calling Him "the Lamb of God." Other examples are in the apocalyptic prophecies which might just be ancient humans trying to describe a very different world in the only way they can.
Great! Now do John 6 when Jesus said, "my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink" 6 TIMES. But it's just a symbol, right?

Watered-down is equal to Christians believing that the Eucharist is ONLY a symbol that was first believed in the 16th century.

BTW, John calling Jesus the "Lamb of God," affirms the literal meaning in John 6. Not only was the lamb sacrificed for our sins, the Jews at the first Passover were commanded to EAT all of the lamb.

historian said:

Prophecy in scripture describes the saved meeting Jesus in the sky when He returns, first those who died in Christ then those who are alive. This is the Rapture and I see no reason not to interpret it literally. The people will not be going out of a city to mean someone, they will be brought up into the sky miraculously by an omnipotent God.
I agree that we will be called up in the sky "by miraculously by an omnipotent God" and meet Jesus and escort him BACK to earth. The Greek used in this sentence bears this out.

Revelation 21:1-3 speaks of the new Heaven and new Earth. The dead will rise; we get our new bodies, and live on the new earth.

Scripture and history don't match up with a "rapture." As a historian, I would suggest that you look up when your view was first refuted and when it was invited.
xfrodobagginsx
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