1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, Neither have entered into the heart of man, The things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Coke Bear said:

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Watered-down is equal to Christians believing that the Eucharist is ONLY a symbol that was first believed in the 16th century.

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The mere existence of Lutheranism would refute the assertion that the real presence was something invented in the 16th century by Roman Catholics.

99% of the communion as an Irish Wake crowd are downstream of Zwingli.

The Swiss make great chocolatiers and watchmakers, but terrible theologians.

The Imitation of Christ PDF Link

I've mentioned this before in a different thread, but I'd highly recommend it regardless of which Christian tradition you claim as your own.

The book starts out with the following paragraphs:

"HE WHO follows Me, walks not in darkness," says the Lord.1 By these words of
Christ we are advised to imitate His life and habits, if we wish to be truly enlightened
and free from all blindness of heart. Let our chief effort; therefore, be to study the life of
Jesus Christ.

The teaching of Christ is more excellent than all the advice of the saints, and he
who has His spirit will find in it a hidden manna. Now, there are many who hear the
Gospel often but care little for it because they have not the spirit of Christ. Yet whoever
wishes to understand fully the words of Christ must try to pattern his whole life on that of
Christ.

What good does it do to speak learnedly about the Trinity if, lacking humility, you
displease the Trinity? Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a
virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to
define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles
of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities
and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone."

This is a particularly issue for those of us who always want to *know* more, and a reminder that we should *do* more.

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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The Sermon on the Mount is a preview of how Christ will rule during the future Kingdom age.

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I disagree. The SM is about discipleship in this life. Look at the last verse Mt 7: "Everyone, then, who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock."Jesus speaks in the present tense, not future.

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He was giving instructions to Kingdom age believers. This is future from the Church age, which we are in:

Matthew 13:44-50, 52 KJV
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. [45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: [46] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. [47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: [48] which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. [49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[52] Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

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Jesus said the kingdom is "in breaking" , not fully here, but on its way. P.S. Jesus speaks in the present tense

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Because the Kingdom of heaven WAS here at that time because the King was in their midst. REPENT! REPENT! for the Kingdom of Heven is at hand! It should have been rendered "In your midst". REPENT! REPENT! For the Kindom of heaven is in your midst! Why? Because the King was in their midst. Had Israel accepted their Messiah, He would have set up His Kingdom here on earth at that time. But they rejcted Him. His instructions were for the kingdom age that will come when He returns physically to the Earth again. While true that Jesus did say repent, I am more inclined to think of the Kingdom of God as a place of grace and living together in community. I think both concepts or supported

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

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That's a clever way of trying to escape being held accountable for the teachings of the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount.

One of the many problems with dispensationalist teaching, but the deeper you go into it you inevitably end up in a place where you're rejecting the gospels as "for the Jews" and saying Christians are only held accountable for the epistles. A fake Paul-only faith.

"Hyperdispensationalism, also referred to as Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, is a Protestant conservative evangelical movement that values biblical inerrancy and a literal hermeneutic. It holds that there was a Church during the period of the Acts that is not the Church today, and that today's Church began when the book of Acts was closed.

Both hyperdispensationalism and ultradispensationalism see the Gospel accounts as for Israel in the Mosaic dispensation. Mid-Acts types take all of Paul's epistles to be directly written to the church, thus accepting the practice of the Lord's Supper as for that dispensation of grace, but the Acts 28 position takes only Paul's prison epistles (those written while in prison after Acts 28) to be directly applicable to the church today, thus denying the Lord's Supper for today."

Crazy stuff.

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Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

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That's a clever way of trying to escape being held accountable for the teachings of the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount.

One of the many problems with dispensationalist teaching, but the deeper you go into it you inevitably end up in a place where you're rejecting the gospels as "for the Jews" and saying Christians are only held accountable for the epistles. A fake Paul-only faith.

"Hyperdispensationalism, also referred to as Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, is a Protestant conservative evangelical movement that values biblical inerrancy and a literal hermeneutic. It holds that there was a Church during the period of the Acts that is not the Church today, and that today's Church began when the book of Acts was closed.

Both hyperdispensationalism and ultradispensationalism see the Gospel accounts as for Israel in the Mosaic dispensation. Mid-Acts types take all of Paul's epistles to be directly written to the church, thus accepting the practice of the Lord's Supper as for that dispensation of grace, but the Acts 28 position takes only Paul's prison epistles (those written while in prison after Acts 28) to be directly applicable to the church today, thus denying the Lord's Supper for today."

Crazy stuff.

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Well as a mid-acts dispensationalist I can tell you that's false we do not deny the Lord's Supper for today. We do not deny baptism all those some do. I don't because Paul talks about baptism and baptizing. So there can be actual disagreements Within mid- acts dispensational circles. There is a circle within the Medics dispensational circles that believes that God is not all knowing. I fully reject that false teaching. That is not biblical. So you can't paint all midx dispensationalists into one category. All midx dispensational means is that we believe that the Pauline Bible books were written directly to the church and all others were to written directly to Israel. We Believe the whole thing is the word of God but not all of it was written directly to us but it was written for our learning. It can be proven scripturally that we have the right position. Usually none dispensationalist like to allegorize any verse in Scripture that they don't like or doesn't fit there theological position. That's the biggest issue with trying to deal with reformed theology calvinist types. That's also the biggest issue with trying to deal with Catholics and others. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. Every allegorical meaning that does exist has a literal physical meaning.

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Philippians 1:6 KJV
[6] being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

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Maybe or I was simply a prayer.

Waco1947 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

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Maybe or I was simply a prayer.

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Anyone have a Greek dictionary?
That might be a good resource to guide one's interpretation.

BUDOS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

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Maybe or I was simply a prayer.

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Anyone have a Greek dictionary?
That might be a good resource to guide one's interpretation.

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. Say more. Why a Greek dictionary

Waco1947 said:

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BUDOS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Waco1947 said:

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I don't think that it's mutually exclusive, it Can in fact be both

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

So very true

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The message was to Israel & for Kingdom Age believers which is yet in the future.

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Maybe or I was simply a prayer.

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Anyone have a Greek dictionary?
That might be a good resource to guide one's interpretation.

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. Say more. Why a Greek dictionary

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1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, Neither have entered into the heart of man, The things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

When translating Bible passages from the Greek & Aramaic, to English, certain nuances, and, at times, even accuracy in the meaning of a phrase is not as precise in English.

Overall, a more precise translation of 1 Corinthians 2:9 from the Greek indicates that Paul is not talking about heaven in general, but about God's previously hidden wisdom now revealed through the Spirit. The Greek emphasizes "things God prepared" as part of His revealed plan, not something still unknown.

Many Bible scholars indicate that A More Accurate Translation from the Greek is closer to the following:
"But just as it is written: What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what has not entered into the human heart these are the things God has prepared for those who love Him."

This is close to the KJV, but the Greek clarifies several important nuances, such as the following:
1. "Eye did not see"
A literal rendering. Paul is quoting Isaiah 64:4, but adapting it.

2. "Ear did not hear"
Also literal. The emphasis is on human inability to discover God's plan by natural means.

3. "Did not rise upon the heart of man"
This is stronger than the KJV's "entered into the heart." The Greek means: "never even occurred to the human mind," or "never rose up into human imagination."

4. "What God has prepared"
This verb () means "prepared beforehand" or "made ready in advance." It refers to God's eternal plan of salvation and wisdom.

5. "for those who love Him"
A present participle: "those who are loving Him" emphasizing ongoing relationship, not a category of people.

So as for what the verse actually means in Greek?
Paul is saying:

• God's saving plan in Christ was not discoverable by human senses or human reasoning.
• It was prepared beforehand by God.
• It is now revealed to believers through the Holy Spirit (see verse 10).
• It is not about heaven in general, but about God's previously hidden wisdom now revealed in the gospel.

To translate the Greek with maximum clarity rather than KJV-style literalness:
But as Scripture says: What no eye ever saw, what no ear ever heard, what never even entered the human mind these are the things God prepared beforehand for those who love Him."

Paul is not saying, "We can't imagine what heaven will be like."
He is saying:
"Human beings could never have discovered God's plan of salvation on their own. But now the Spirit has revealed it."

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As far as 1st Corinthians 2:9, the KJV gets it right. I don't know Greek, but I have an Orthodox New Testament which is about as close as you can get in English, and it agrees with the King James:

"But even as it hath been written: Eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and neither hath it entered into the heart of man the things which God prepared for who that love Him."

Here's a quick litmus test to see if the New Testament translation of your Bible is reliable, or if you're looking for a new one. Turn to Acts chapter 8 and check to see if verse 37 (the profession of faith of the Ethopian Eunuch) has been excised from the text.

Are those the same versions that remove other passages as well? Like the snake handling? And the story of the woman caught in adultery?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Are those the same versions that remove other passages as well? Like the snake handling? And the story of the woman caught in adultery?

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In general yes.

But the verse in Acts is one you can look up fairly quickly and easily and check.

I like the KJV, but I understand there are a couple of passages included that are in question that were not in the oldest Manuscripts

xfrodobagginsx said:

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I like the KJV, but I understand there are a couple of passages included that are in question that were not in the oldest Manuscripts

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Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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I like the KJV, but I understand there are a couple of passages included that are in question that were not in the oldest Manuscripts

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There are arguments on both sides.

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

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That verse is not saying that you are saved by Works. It's saying that true faith produces good works. It's a difficult passage on it's own, but when compared to the rest of Scripture, it's obvious that Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH alone, but true faith produces good works because when you truly believe something, you act upon that belief. Read the ENTIRE book of Romans. It's crystal clear that we are not Justified by works. James says that IF we truly have Faith (Which results in Salvation on it's own) we will produce good works as an outward proof that we are saved.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

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This is a common misconception, xfrodo.

"without the deeds of THE LAW."

Think about it. Paul is referring to what we commonly call the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic law.

That is consistent with what the Prophet Amos said to Israel in Amos 5:

I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.

He is not saying that it is without good deeds. It is not a verse to support fruitless salvation...and yet that is precisely what Evangelicalism has constructed in a step right up, do your business with God, and walk away saved forever more formulation. It has become a shallow boarding pass faith that is trying to guarantee you that you won't get bumped from the flight even if you walk away from the gate...and in doing so, it has eviscerated the Christian foundations of our society.

1st Corinthians 3:9: "For we are God's fellow workers..."

The rest of that chapter speaks about us building on the foundation that Christ laid...and I know you're going to bring up the "as saved through fire" part of it. Keep in mind that the one who was saved through fire built with straw. His works were burned up but he was saved. Nothing in there says anything about a man who refused to build anything being saved.

The totality of scripture (Romans + James) teaches that salvation is by grace, through faith, evidenced by works. Salvation is very much a 3 legged stool. Faithless works do not save. Workless faith does not save.

Hope you had a great weekend

Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

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That verse is not saying that you are saved by Works. It's saying that true faith produces good works. It's a difficult passage on it's own, but when compared to the rest of Scripture, it's obvious that Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH alone, but true faith produces good works because when you truly believe something, you act upon that belief. Read the ENTIRE book of Romans. It's crystal clear that we are not Justified by works. James says that IF we truly have Faith (Which results in Salvation on it's own) we will produce good works as an outward proof that we are saved.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

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This is a common misconception, xfrodo.

"without the deeds of THE LAW."

Think about it. Paul is referring to what we commonly call the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic law.

That is consistent with what the Prophet Amos said to Israel in Amos 5:

I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.

He is not saying that it is without good deeds. It is not a verse to support fruitless salvation...and yet that is precisely what Evangelicalism has constructed in a step right up, do your business with God, and walk away saved forever more formulation. It has become a shallow boarding pass faith that is trying to guarantee you that you won't get bumped from the flight even if you walk away from the gate...and in doing so, it has eviscerated the Christian foundations of our society.

1st Corinthians 3:9: "For we are God's fellow workers..."

The rest of that chapter speaks about us building on the foundation that Christ laid...and I know you're going to bring up the "as saved through fire" part of it. Keep in mind that the one who was saved through fire built with straw. His works were burned up but he was saved. Nothing in there says anything about a man who refused to build anything being saved.

The totality of scripture (Romans + James) teaches that salvation is by grace, through faith, evidenced by works. Salvation is very much a 3 legged stool. Faithless works do not save. Workless faith does not save.

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False. Good deeds any kind will not save. Under grace, FAITH alone is what saves. Because a Christian is saved from sin, he AUGHT not sin, not for salvation, but because of what was done for him:

Romans 6:1-11 KJV
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 4:5 KJV
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:9-10, 13 KJV
[9] that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Romans 4:5 KJV
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:9-10, 13 KJV
[9] that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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You are reading without understanding. Let's first put Romans 4:5 back into context.

"3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."

Once again we see that Saint Paul is not granting occasion for the unprofitable servant in the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 to be saved, someone who Christ explicitly states is condemned (he ends the parable not by the master firing the unprofitable servant but by saying "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."). There are dispensationalists who completely reject the four gospels as only being "for the Jews", and say that only Paul's epistles and Revelation are for the church. I hope you're not in that camp.

What he is doing is comparing the faith of Abraham which led to justification to the works of the Jews according to the Mosaic law which does *not*. This is seen in Romans 3:20 "For this reason, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by works of the law, for through the law we become aware of sin" and is consistent with the verses from Amos that I cited in my previous post.

You can again see this in Romans 10:13, where "WHOSOEVER [not just the Jews practicing the Mosaic law] shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

You can't just clip proof texts out of their context and expect to understand them.

None of this is a defense of the salvation of the fruitless "Christian". It is a condemnation of the faithless Jew. It is a polemic against the sort of transactional religiosity that says "Yeah, I took my peace offering to the priests at the temple, I'm good. I bought the papal indulgence, I'm good. I went forward at the altar call and prayed the sinner's prayer, I'm good."

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