How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to xfrodobagginsx • 12:30p, 10/5/26
xfrodobagginsx said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
xfrodobagginsx said:
BusyTarpDuster vs Oldbear83:

Let's see who really practices true Biblical Christianity:

I ask you both, How Exactly Does A Man Get To Heaven When He Dies?


Frodo, we never got to hear your verdict. Your question was an excellent test to see who is representing true, biblical Christianity. You've read both OldBear's and my answer to your question. What is your assessment?


I need you both to copy and paste your answers again. They are buried behind a mountain of debate.


I will say this. Salvation is all about FAITH alone in Jesus Christ and what HE did on the cross to pay for your sins.
Romans 10:9,10-13 is the way of Salvation.

"that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. "
Romans 10:9-10, 13

The prayer that I list, sums this all up to the Lord. Here is the prayer:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

To your question, "How exactly does a person get to Heaven when he dies?",

OldBear's response was:

"I think we can trust the Bible to tell us what someone is like, who walks rightly with God.

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matthew 5:44

"Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' "This is the first and greatest commandment. "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'." - Matthew 22:37-39

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" - Galatians 5:22-23

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" - Ephesians 4:32

The way is made clear."



My response was:

"A person goes to heaven when they die, if in their heart they believe in the testimony of the gospel, given to us through the inspired word of God - that Jesus was sent by God, that he was crucified and died for our sins, that he was truly dead and buried, and that he was raised from the dead and now is alive for all eternity with the authority as Lord; and that they place their faith and trust in Jesus' promise that if they believe in him and in what he did, he Jesus will raise them to eternal life as well, to be with God forever.


So what's your verdict?
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Oldbear83
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3:01p, 10/5/26
Adding the part BTD left out from my post, which is pertinent to this matter:

" I found it odd that you seemed to phrase this as a contest to see who is, what, the better Christian or the 'real' Christian? I think that even though we disagree on many points, BusyTarpDuster would agree that spreading the Gospel is not a competition, nor are we to focus on personal scoreboards. Our Lord desires that everyone who can be saved, will be so, and each of us serve according to God's will and our obedience.

Next, I must say it's odd to hear a Christian talk about Heaven as a 'someday' destination, when Christ plainly told us,

"Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." Luke 17:20-21

So often people seem to miss that the blessings of being a follower of Christ start as soon as you accept Him. God hears prayers and answers them, and having the counsel of the Holy Spirit is a resource beyond price."

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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 5:53p, 10/5/26
Oldbear83 said:
Adding the part BTD left out from my post, which is pertinent to this matter:

" I found it odd that you seemed to phrase this as a contest to see who is, what, the better Christian or the 'real' Christian? I think that even though we disagree on many points, BusyTarpDuster would agree that spreading the Gospel is not a competition, nor are we to focus on personal scoreboards. Our Lord desires that everyone who can be saved, will be so, and each of us serve according to God's will and our obedience.

Next, I must say it's odd to hear a Christian talk about Heaven as a 'someday' destination, when Christ plainly told us,

"Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." Luke 17:20-21

So often people seem to miss that the blessings of being a follower of Christ start as soon as you accept Him. God hears prayers and answers them, and having the counsel of the Holy Spirit is a resource beyond price."


You really have comprehension issues. Nothing in that part is pertinent to your attempted answer to the question.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 6:01p, 10/5/26
It certainly is pertinent. Your response is interesting as well, in that context.

I think Frodo's silence right now is appropriate.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 6:14p, 10/5/26
Oldbear83 said:
It certainly is pertinent. Your response is interesting as well, in that context.

I think Frodo's silence right now is appropriate.

First of all, Frodo wasn't silent. He actually already answered our posts, separately. He pretty much said yours was wrong and mine was correct. I figured that got lost in the pile of comments that followed, so for sake of clarity I requested that he make the comparison clear.

Secondly, no, that part of your comment was not pertinent. If you think so, then explain how.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 6:20p, 10/5/26
If that were true, you would not have that post on this page asking for Frodo's "verdict".

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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 6:24p, 10/5/26
Oldbear83 said:
If that were true, you would not have that post on this page asking for Frodo's "verdict".


I explained all that in my comment. He didn't offer the comparative verdict between our responses, he only responded to them individually. You really have comprehension issues.

And are you saying that it's NOT true?
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Oldbear83
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 8:15p, 10/5/26
I have answered you.

You have thrown a tantrum, yet again.

I noted your inconsistency, to which you again threw a fit.

Small wonder Frodo is staying out.


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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 11:25p, 10/5/26
Oldbear83 said:
I have answered you.

You have thrown a tantrum, yet again.

I noted your inconsistency, to which you again threw a fit.

Small wonder Frodo is staying out.



Whether Frodo stays out of his own test to see which of us is representing true biblicial Christianity, is up to him. But if he does, it would be a tremendous disservice to you.

There hasn't been any "tantrum" or "fit". Everyone knows this is what you resort to when you can't argue your point. I hope one day you realize how silly this makes you look.

As far as "inconsistency", what exactly is it you're referring to? Because that makes absolutely no sense. Am I expecting too much from you by thinking I'm going to get a cogent explanation? Judging by your failure to explain why your post was "pertinent", I have a strong feeling that I am.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 10:50a, 10/6/26
Well, at least you have scaled down your bitterness from rage to petulance, so kudos.

I think the value of the discussion is best preserved by not responding to the rest of your post, since it is not on topic nor useful in building understanding.

I will say that it continues to amaze me that anyone would embrace the notion of Salvation, yet have no interest in the joy of a growing and direct relationship with God, and the joy which such a relationship produces.

Paul's verses about the character of someone walking with Christ as His follower is consistent with Christ's reminder that we must come to Him as 'little children', else we cannot come to Him at all.

As for arguments about who is greater or better among a group, Matthew 20:25-27 is worth re-reading.

" Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave" Matthew 20:25-27

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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 12:41p, 10/6/26
Oldbear83 said:
Well, at least you have scaled down your bitterness from rage to petulance, so kudos.

I think the value of the discussion is best preserved by not responding to the rest of your post, since it is not on topic nor useful in building understanding.

I will say that it continues to amaze me that anyone would embrace the notion of Salvation, yet have no interest in the joy of a growing and direct relationship with God, and the joy which such a relationship produces.

Paul's verses about the character of someone walking with Christ as His follower is consistent with Christ's reminder that we must come to Him as 'little children', else we cannot come to Him at all.

As for arguments about who is greater or better among a group, Matthew 20:25-27 is worth re-reading.

" Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave" Matthew 20:25-27

Oh, so now in my previous posts I had "rage", huh? There's nothing in them that any normal, honest, intelligent person would say is anything close to being "rage". In fact, in previous posts all I was doing was asking a question without any criticism - the ones you're calling "rage". Yet in the post you call "scaling down my bitterness", I pretty much said you were "silly" and too dishonest and unintelligent to answer questions with clarity. Go figure. This is the confused logic in all your posts in a nutshell.

Regarding the rest of your post, you continue to make no sense whatsoever. Your responses are confused, unfocused, and without truth or clarity. It's also ironic that YOU would be preaching to others about demonstrating "joy". Do you honestly believe you're projecting "joy"?? And "a growing and direct relationship with God"? This is precisely what you resist by your constant resisting of the correction of your false views through your defense mechanisms. Your answer to "how someone goes to heaven" was very problematic but you've developed a wall with your pride that prevents you from seeing it. This isn't about who's "better" - your preaching about that is an example of your lack of clarity, comprehension, and understanding of the real issue. Rather, this is about knowing, understanding, and believing in the correct gospel. This is about your "gospel" of righteous achievement vs. the actual, biblical gospel of grace through faith (NONE of which was contained in your answer).

Here's what having the Holy Spirit and a "growing, direct relationship with God" produces - understanding and alignment with truth in clarity and boldness - especially with regard to the gospel. Confusion, misdirection, dodging, cowering from calling out evil, poor comprehension, and lack of clarity and truth are clear indicators of not being in the Spirit.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 12:51p, 10/6/26
Another angry tantrum from BTD.

Just the high points then:

No, I never claimed - at all - a gospel of works. I said the Christian bears fruit in his/her walk with the Lord, and quoted what Scripture says that fruit looks like.

You seem to change what I say to something you attack rather a lot.

And your mood is never one reflecting joy.

Hmm.

You would do better to calm down, seek peace and understand before replying.

But as BUDOS observed, your constant choice is the disappointing one.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 5:55p, 10/6/26
Oldbear83 said:
Another angry tantrum from BTD.

And your mood is never one reflecting joy.

Hmm.

You would do better to calm down, seek peace and understand before replying.

But as BUDOS observed, your constant choice is the disappointing one.

Anger against falsehoods is what every Christian should have. You are the kind of "Christian" that would have called Jesus "angry" and "bitter" and full of "rage", "without joy", and thus without the Holy Spirit, when he overturned the money changers' tables and drove them out with whips.

Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?

If anyone needs to "calm down" and actually seek understanding and peace, it's you. You're the one constantly making personal attacks in order to get around having to make an actual argument. You're the one judging what's in other people's hearts in order to escape the points they're making. You're the one without clarity and truth. You're the one who, when answering "how one goes to heaven", did not mention anything that even remotely resembled the gospel.

Shocked, shocked I tell ya, that you and BUDOS are in the same boat. Two who refused to call out clear, obvious idolatry and heresy, thus contributing to their continued practice. Both and you and BUDOS like to point the finger that really and direly needs to be pointed at yourselves.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 6:17p, 10/6/26
Oldbear83 said:

Just the high points then:

No, I never claimed - at all - a gospel of works. I said the Christian bears fruit in his/her walk with the Lord, and quoted what Scripture says that fruit looks like.

You seem to change what I say to something you attack rather a lot.


I didn't say you claimed a "gospel of works". I said your "gospel" was of righteous achievement. Here is your answer again, for the forum to reference:

Question: how does a person get to heaven when they die?

Your answer: "I believe your curiosity was about Salvation. I think we can trust the Bible to tell us what someone is like, who walks rightly with God.

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matthew 5:44

"Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' "This is the first and greatest commandment. "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'." - Matthew 22:37-39

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" - Galatians 5:22-23

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" - Ephesians 4:32


The way is made clear."


You can deny it all you want, you can claim that I'm "lying" about what you wrote all you want, but people just aren't going to buy it. People are seeing with their own eyes what your answer obviously is - in your own words, salvation is by "walking rightly with God", by exhibiting the characteristics of love for others, for God, and the fruits of the Spirit. You even ended your answer with "the way is made clear". You obviously were describing the "way" to salvation.

Frodo correctly called you out on this, saying that this is not what saves a person. I'm also pointing it out. So you have two Christians who are correcting you, and you just won't have any of it.

OldBear - calm down, and forget about your spite for me for just a moment and THINK: if a professed Christian is asked how one goes to heaven, and in that Christian's answer there is NOTHING about Jesus dying for our sins and our having faith in him - you know, the actual GOSPEL - then should not that Christian stop fighting others online, stop the defense mechanisms, humbly evaluate himself, and realize that maybe - just maybe - they're the one that isn't right with the Holy Spirit? And thus, they should really STOP judging others that they aren't of the Spirit?
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Oldbear83
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 6:32p, 10/6/26
BTD: " Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?"

Don't recall Scripture saying that. Maybe you can provide some quotes where Jesus commanded us to hate people?


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Oldbear83
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6:33p, 10/6/26
Irony II - BTD throwing out yet another rant, and thinking he can sell it by ordering me to "calm down" as his latest screed includes yet more bolded rhetoric ... and still no scriptural support.

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BUDOS
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 9:37a, 10/7/26
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Oldbear83 said:
Another angry tantrum from BTD.

And your mood is never one reflecting joy.

Hmm.

You would do better to calm down, seek peace and understand before replying.

But as BUDOS observed, your constant choice is the disappointing one.

Anger against falsehoods is what every Christian should have. You are the kind of "Christian" that would have called Jesus "angry" and "bitter" and full of "rage", "without joy", and thus without the Holy Spirit, when he overturned the money changers' tables and drove them out with whips.

Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?

If anyone needs to "calm down" and actually seek understanding and peace, it's you. You're the one constantly making personal attacks in order to get around having to make an actual argument. You're the one judging what's in other people's hearts in order to escape the points they're making. You're the one without clarity and truth. You're the one who, when answering "how one goes to heaven", did not mention anything that even remotely resembled the gospel.

Shocked, shocked I tell ya, that you and BUDOS are in the same boat. Two who refused to call out clear, obvious idolatry and heresy, thus contributing to their continued practice. Both and you and BUDOS like to point the finger that really and direly needs to be pointed at yourselves.

BTD,
Really? In reviewing your response, I wonder if perhaps you may have, once again, let your emotions and ego override some things. Let me respond to your question and then give you an opportunity to respond.

"Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?"

Biblically, it would appear that you are incorrect. Neither Paul nor Jesus ever describe hate or anger as fruits of the Spirit. In fact, Scripture consistently lists anger, rage, malice, and similar attitudes as works of the flesh that believers must put away, not cultivate.

Let's consider what Paul says the Fruit of the Spirit is:
Paul explicitly defines the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:2223:
  • Love
  • Joy
  • Peace
  • Patience
  • Kindness
  • Goodness
  • Faithfulness
  • Gentleness
  • Selfcontrol

There is no biblical basis for adding "hate" or "anger" to this list. On the contrary, Paul contrasts these fruits with the works of the flesh, which include hostility, dissensions, fits of rage, and envy (Gal. 5:1921). In the translations I have available, Paul, appears to explicitly state that anger and rage must be removed, and therefore are the opposite of fruits of the spirit.

In Colossians 3:8, Paul commands believers:
"But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander…"
This does not appear to be anything close to ambiguous. Paul does not treat anger as a Spirit-produced virtue he treats it as something belonging to the old self that must be put to death (Col. 3:510).

Overall, one of the major themes in Galatians 5 is that the Spirit produces qualities that build unity, gentleness, patience, and peace in relationships. Anger, rivalry, jealousy, and divisions are listed as destructive patterns that oppose the Spirit's work.

So biblically:
  • Love moves toward others
  • Peace calms conflict
  • Patience absorbs irritation
  • Gentleness softens strength
  • Self-control restrains impulses.

It does not appear that any of these are compatible with "Spirit-produced hate."

Now, as for as "righteous anger" the Bible does appear to acknowledge it but it is:
  • directed at injustice or sin,
  • slow, measured, and controlled,
  • never self-exalting or abusive.

Even then, Scripture warns strongly against uncontrolled anger and teaches believers to cultivate self-control, which is a fruit of the Spirit. Righteous anger is not a fruit of the Spirit.

So, back to your statement:
"Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?"

Biblically, this is impossible because:
Paul defines the fruit of the Spirit explicitly and hate/anger are not on the list.
Paul commands believers to get rid of anger and rage.
Jesus teaches love for enemies, blessing those who curse you, and forgiveness not Spirit-produced hate.
The Spirit produces unity, gentleness, and peace not hostility.

It would appear that your claim contradicts the plain text of Scripture. It is not a theological argument it does appear to be a psychological defense mechanism dressed in religious language. I apologize if I come off a bit snippy on occasion, but I am human, and there are times I really do want to lose my patience with you. It is at such times that I pause and pray, and pray very, very hard.
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historian
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10:58a, 10/7/26
Hate and anger are the opposite of fruits of the Spirit.
“Incline my heart to your testimonies, and not to selfish gain!”
Psalm 119:36
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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12:27p, 10/7/26
Are you guys really this spiritually dense, that you can't think of how hate and anger can be fruits of the Spirit?

This is very sad. But for some of you, not unexpected at all.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to historian • 1:26p, 10/7/26
historian said:
Hate and anger are the opposite of fruits of the Spirit.


And Scripture is clear on this.
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Coke Bear
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 1:30p, 10/7/26
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Are you guys really this spiritually dense, that you can't think of how hate and anger can be fruits of the Spirit?

This is very sad. But for some of you, not unexpected at all.
Very interesting.

An extreme sola Scriptura guy wants to add two "fruits" that Jesus actually condemns.

Do you only believe in sola Scriptura when it matters to your opinion?
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xfrodobagginsx
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In reply to Coke Bear • 7:33p, 10/7/26
Coke Bear said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Are you guys really this spiritually dense, that you can't think of how hate and anger can be fruits of the Spirit?

This is very sad. But for some of you, not unexpected at all.
Very interesting.

An extreme sola Scriptura guy wants to add two "fruits" that Jesus actually condemns.

Do you only believe in sola Scriptura when it matters to your opinion?


There is a righteous anger and there is a righteous hatred. I'm not talking about things that Jesus condoms. You're not talking about hating people. We are talking about hating sin. Jesus hated sin too. Love the sinner hate to sin.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to xfrodobagginsx • 7:36p, 10/7/26
xfrodobagginsx said:
Coke Bear said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Are you guys really this spiritually dense, that you can't think of how hate and anger can be fruits of the Spirit?

This is very sad. But for some of you, not unexpected at all.

Very interesting.

An extreme sola Scriptura guy wants to add two "fruits" that Jesus actually condemns.

Do you only believe in sola Scriptura when it matters to your opinion?


There is a righteous anger and there is a righteous hatred. I'm not talking about things that Jesus condoms. You're not talking about hating people. We are talking about hating sin. Jesus hated sin too. Love the sinner hate to sin.

I think, Frodo, that context matters very much.

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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 7:43p, 10/7/26
Oldbear83 said:
xfrodobagginsx said:
Coke Bear said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Are you guys really this spiritually dense, that you can't think of how hate and anger can be fruits of the Spirit?

This is very sad. But for some of you, not unexpected at all.

Very interesting.

An extreme sola Scriptura guy wants to add two "fruits" that Jesus actually condemns.

Do you only believe in sola Scriptura when it matters to your opinion?


There is a righteous anger and there is a righteous hatred. I'm not talking about things that Jesus condoms. You're not talking about hating people. We are talking about hating sin. Jesus hated sin too. Love the sinner hate to sin.

I think, Frodo, that context matters very much.


And context is exactly where you guys failed on this.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to xfrodobagginsx • 7:50p, 10/7/26
xfrodobagginsx said:
Coke Bear said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Are you guys really this spiritually dense, that you can't think of how hate and anger can be fruits of the Spirit?

This is very sad. But for some of you, not unexpected at all.

Very interesting.

An extreme sola Scriptura guy wants to add two "fruits" that Jesus actually condemns.

Do you only believe in sola Scriptura when it matters to your opinion?


There is a righteous anger and there is a righteous hatred. I'm not talking about things that Jesus condoms. You're not talking about hating people. We are talking about hating sin. Jesus hated sin too. Love the sinner hate to sin.

Finally, someone who understands. Thank you, frodo.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is being aligned with God's will and truth, and being zealous for his glory and honor. To have the Holy Spirit is to HATE and be ANGRY at what goes against these. And this is most certainly scriptural.

Not surprised at all, at those who failed to discern this.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to BUDOS • 8:07p, 10/7/26
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" - Proverbs 8:13

"Hate evil, you who love the Lord" - Psalm 97:10

"Hate evil, love good" - Amos 5:15

"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good." - Romans 12:9

"Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens." - Exodus 18:21

"From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:104

"Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:128

"A righteous man hates falsehood" - Proverbs 13:15

"I hate and despise falsehood" - Psalm 119:163

"I hate the work of those who fall away" - Psalm 101:3

"He who profits illicitly troubles his own house; But he who hates bribes will live." - Proverbs 15:27

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows." - Psalm 45:7

"I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked." - Psalm 26:5

"I behold the treacherous and loathe them, because they do not keep Your word." - Psalm 119:158
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BUDOS
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 9:23p, 10/7/26
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" - Proverbs 8:13

"Hate evil, you who love the Lord" - Psalm 97:10

"Hate evil, love good" - Amos 5:15

"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good." - Romans 12:9

"Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens." - Exodus 18:21

"From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:104

"Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:128

"A righteous man hates falsehood" - Proverbs 13:15

"I hate and despise falsehood" - Psalm 119:163

"I hate the work of those who fall away" - Psalm 101:3

"He who profits illicitly troubles his own house; But he who hates bribes will live." - Proverbs 15:27

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows." - Psalm 45:7

"I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked." - Psalm 26:5

"I behold the treacherous and loathe them, because they do not keep Your word." - Psalm 119:158

BTD,
Let's not shift the argument. It appears that you are no longer claiming that hate and anger are fruits of the Spirit (which is what you originally said). It appears you are now trying to claim:
"The fruit of the Spirit is being aligned with God's will… therefore hating evil is a fruit of the Spirit."

That is not what Paul says, and it is not what the biblical text says.

Do not attempt to redefine "fruit of the Spirit" into a vague concept ("being aligned with God's will") just so you have an opportunity to smuggle some of your hostility into it.

Now, back to the original point of debate, and I do want to thank you for your reply and for listing those passages. I want to respond carefully and stay close to the text itself.

First, I agree with you Scripture absolutely teaches that believers should hate evil. The verses you listed make that very clear. No disagreement there.

But that was not the question.

Your original statement was:
"Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?"
That is a very different claim than "believers should hate evil."

The issue is not whether Christians should hate evil Scripture affirms that plainly. The issue is whether hate and anger themselves are fruits of the Spirit. And on that point, the biblical text is equally plain:
Paul explicitly defines the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:2223. It is a fixed list: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and selfcontrol.
"Hate" and "anger" are not included.

In fact, Paul places anger, rage, hostility, and dissension in the opposite category the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:1921). And in Colossians 3:8 he instructs believers to "rid yourselves of anger and rage."

So while Scripture teaches us to hate evil, Scripture does not teach that hate or anger are fruits of the Spirit. The verses you listed do not redefine Paul's list, nor do they contradict it. They simply teach that believers should reject evil which is fully compatible with the fruit of love, goodness, and selfcontrol.

To summarize:
  • Yes, believers should hate evil.
  • No, Scripture never calls hate or anger "fruit of the Spirit."
  • Yes, the Spirit produces moral clarity and love for righteousness.
  • No, that does not turn hate or anger into spiritual fruit.

I'm simply keeping the categories where Scripture places them.
If you want to continue discussing the difference between "hating evil" and "anger as a fruit of the Spirit," I'm glad to do so but let's stay anchored to what the text actually says.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to BUDOS • 10:35p, 10/7/26
BUDOS said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" - Proverbs 8:13

"Hate evil, you who love the Lord" - Psalm 97:10

"Hate evil, love good" - Amos 5:15

"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good." - Romans 12:9

"Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens." - Exodus 18:21

"From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:104

"Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:128

"A righteous man hates falsehood" - Proverbs 13:15

"I hate and despise falsehood" - Psalm 119:163

"I hate the work of those who fall away" - Psalm 101:3

"He who profits illicitly troubles his own house; But he who hates bribes will live." - Proverbs 15:27

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows." - Psalm 45:7

"I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked." - Psalm 26:5

"I behold the treacherous and loathe them, because they do not keep Your word." - Psalm 119:158

BTD,
Let's not shift the argument. It appears that you are no longer claiming that hate and anger are fruits of the Spirit (which is what you originally said). It appears you are now trying to claim:
"The fruit of the Spirit is being aligned with God's will… therefore hating evil is a fruit of the Spirit."

That is not what Paul says, and it is not what the biblical text says.

Do not attempt to redefine "fruit of the Spirit" into a vague concept ("being aligned with God's will") just so you have an opportunity to smuggle some of your hostility into it.

Now, back to the original point of debate, and I do want to thank you for your reply and for listing those passages. I want to respond carefully and stay close to the text itself.

First, I agree with you Scripture absolutely teaches that believers should hate evil. The verses you listed make that very clear. No disagreement there.

But that was not the question.

Your original statement was:
"Did it ever occur to you that HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit?"
That is a very different claim than "believers should hate evil."

The issue is not whether Christians should hate evil Scripture affirms that plainly. The issue is whether hate and anger themselves are fruits of the Spirit. And on that point, the biblical text is equally plain:
Paul explicitly defines the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:2223. It is a fixed list: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and selfcontrol.
"Hate" and "anger" are not included.

In fact, Paul places anger, rage, hostility, and dissension in the opposite category the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:1921). And in Colossians 3:8 he instructs believers to "rid yourselves of anger and rage."

So while Scripture teaches us to hate evil, Scripture does not teach that hate or anger are fruits of the Spirit. The verses you listed do not redefine Paul's list, nor do they contradict it. They simply teach that believers should reject evil which is fully compatible with the fruit of love, goodness, and selfcontrol.

To summarize:
  • Yes, believers should hate evil.
  • No, Scripture never calls hate or anger "fruit of the Spirit."
  • Yes, the Spirit produces moral clarity and love for righteousness.
  • No, that does not turn hate or anger into spiritual fruit.
I'm simply keeping the categories where Scripture places them.
If you want to continue discussing the difference between "hating evil" and "anger as a fruit of the Spirit," I'm glad to do so but let's stay anchored to what the text actually says.

Do you believe empathy, compassion, understanding, charity, and the desire to share the gospel with others are fruits of the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer?
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to BUDOS • 10:57p, 10/7/26
BUDOS said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" - Proverbs 8:13

"Hate evil, you who love the Lord" - Psalm 97:10

"Hate evil, love good" - Amos 5:15

"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good." - Romans 12:9

"Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens." - Exodus 18:21

"From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:104

"Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:128

"A righteous man hates falsehood" - Proverbs 13:15

"I hate and despise falsehood" - Psalm 119:163

"I hate the work of those who fall away" - Psalm 101:3

"He who profits illicitly troubles his own house; But he who hates bribes will live." - Proverbs 15:27

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows." - Psalm 45:7

"I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked." - Psalm 26:5

"I behold the treacherous and loathe them, because they do not keep Your word." - Psalm 119:158



Do not attempt to redefine "fruit of the Spirit" into a vague concept ("being aligned with God's will") just so you have an opportunity to smuggle some of your hostility into it.

I'm not redefining anything. There is nothing that is vague. I'm wholly arguing that anger and hatred CAN be fruits of the Holy Spirit in the truest sense of its meaning.

I'd ask you to point out exactly where I've been "hostile", but we all know that you always fail to do it, and plus, we all know this is just another dishonest attempt of yours to discredit me, in an attempt to escape the fact that you were exposed (which you can't - no one's forgotten). You really need to stop this defense mechanism, and stop thinking you have the ability to judge what's in other people's hearts, if you want to retain any sort of credibility.
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 9:12a, 10/8/26
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
BUDOS said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" - Proverbs 8:13

"Hate evil, you who love the Lord" - Psalm 97:10

"Hate evil, love good" - Amos 5:15

"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good." - Romans 12:9

"Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens." - Exodus 18:21

"From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:104

"Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:128

"A righteous man hates falsehood" - Proverbs 13:15

"I hate and despise falsehood" - Psalm 119:163

"I hate the work of those who fall away" - Psalm 101:3

"He who profits illicitly troubles his own house; But he who hates bribes will live." - Proverbs 15:27

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows." - Psalm 45:7

"I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked." - Psalm 26:5

"I behold the treacherous and loathe them, because they do not keep Your word." - Psalm 119:158



Do not attempt to redefine "fruit of the Spirit" into a vague concept ("being aligned with God's will") just so you have an opportunity to smuggle some of your hostility into it.

I'm not redefining anything. There is nothing that is vague. I'm wholly arguing that anger and hatred CAN be fruits of the Holy Spirit in the truest sense of its meaning.

I'd ask you to point out exactly where I've been "hostile", but we all know that you always fail to do it, and plus, we all know this is just another dishonest attempt of yours to discredit me, in an attempt to escape the fact that you were exposed (which you can't - no one's forgotten). You really need to stop this defense mechanism, and stop thinking you have the ability to judge what's in other people's hearts, if you want to retain any sort of credibility.

BTD,
We are going to stay with the original claim you made, because that is the point under discussion:
"HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit."

Nothing you've quoted and nothing you've said since changes the fact that Paul explicitly defines the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:2223, and hate/anger are not included. In fact, Paul places anger, rage, and hostility in the category of works of the flesh (Gal. 5:1921) and instructs believers to "rid yourselves of anger and rage" (Col. 3:8).

The verses you listed about hating evil are true and important, but they don't redefine Paul's list, nor do they turn "hate" or "anger" into fruits of the Spirit. They simply teach that believers should reject evil which is fully compatible with the fruit of love, goodness, and selfcontrol.

As for your question about empathy, compassion, charity, and sharing the gospel: Those qualities flow naturally from the fruit Paul actually names especially love, kindness, goodness, and gentleness. But again, they do not replace or expand Paul's list. The list is fixed because Paul defines it.

Regarding your comments about hostility or motives: I'm not going to follow you into personal accusations, that is an area where your skills definitely supersede mine. I prefer to keep the discussion focused on Scripture, not on one another's character. My point was simply that redefining "fruit of the Spirit" into a broad concept like "being aligned with God's will" allows anything including anger to be inserted into it. That's why I'm sticking with Paul's biblical definition, rather than a reframed one.

So to keep this simple and anchored:
  • Yes, believers should hate evil.
  • Yes, righteous anger exists.
  • No, Scripture never calls hate or anger "fruit of the Spirit."
  • Yes, Paul defines the fruit of the Spirit explicitly.
  • No, those categories are not interchangeable.

If you want to continue discussing this, I'm glad to but let's stay with the text itself rather than shifting into personal accusations or unrelated questions.
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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to BUDOS • 1:42p, 10/8/26
BUDOS said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
BUDOS said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" - Proverbs 8:13

"Hate evil, you who love the Lord" - Psalm 97:10

"Hate evil, love good" - Amos 5:15

"Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good." - Romans 12:9

"Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens." - Exodus 18:21

"From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:104

"Therefore I esteem right all Your precepts concerning everything, I hate every false way." - Psalm 119:128

"A righteous man hates falsehood" - Proverbs 13:15

"I hate and despise falsehood" - Psalm 119:163

"I hate the work of those who fall away" - Psalm 101:3

"He who profits illicitly troubles his own house; But he who hates bribes will live." - Proverbs 15:27

"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows." - Psalm 45:7

"I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked." - Psalm 26:5

"I behold the treacherous and loathe them, because they do not keep Your word." - Psalm 119:158



Do not attempt to redefine "fruit of the Spirit" into a vague concept ("being aligned with God's will") just so you have an opportunity to smuggle some of your hostility into it.

I'm not redefining anything. There is nothing that is vague. I'm wholly arguing that anger and hatred CAN be fruits of the Holy Spirit in the truest sense of its meaning.

I'd ask you to point out exactly where I've been "hostile", but we all know that you always fail to do it, and plus, we all know this is just another dishonest attempt of yours to discredit me, in an attempt to escape the fact that you were exposed (which you can't - no one's forgotten). You really need to stop this defense mechanism, and stop thinking you have the ability to judge what's in other people's hearts, if you want to retain any sort of credibility.

BTD,
We are going to stay with the original claim you made, because that is the point under discussion:
"HATE and anger can actually be a fruit of the Spirit."

Nothing you've quoted and nothing you've said since changes the fact that Paul explicitly defines the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:2223, and hate/anger are not included. In fact, Paul places anger, rage, and hostility in the category of works of the flesh (Gal. 5:1921) and instructs believers to "rid yourselves of anger and rage" (Col. 3:8).

The verses you listed about hating evil are true and important, but they don't redefine Paul's list, nor do they turn "hate" or "anger" into fruits of the Spirit. They simply teach that believers should reject evil which is fully compatible with the fruit of love, goodness, and selfcontrol.

As for your question about empathy, compassion, charity, and sharing the gospel: Those qualities flow naturally from the fruit Paul actually names especially love, kindness, goodness, and gentleness. But again, they do not replace or expand Paul's list. The list is fixed because Paul defines it.

Regarding your comments about hostility or motives: I'm not going to follow you into personal accusations, that is an area where your skills definitely supersede mine. I prefer to keep the discussion focused on Scripture, not on one another's character. My point was simply that redefining "fruit of the Spirit" into a broad concept like "being aligned with God's will" allows anything including anger to be inserted into it. That's why I'm sticking with Paul's biblical definition, rather than a reframed one.

So to keep this simple and anchored:
  • Yes, believers should hate evil.
  • Yes, righteous anger exists.
  • No, Scripture never calls hate or anger "fruit of the Spirit."
  • Yes, Paul defines the fruit of the Spirit explicitly.
  • No, those categories are not interchangeable.
If you want to continue discussing this, I'm glad to but let's stay with the text itself rather than shifting into personal accusations or unrelated questions.

If you don't want personal accusations, then why did you do them? Amazing.

So, to be clear... you believe that Spirit-moved empathy, understanding, compassion, charity, and the desire to share the gospel are NOT fruits of the Spirit?

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Oldbear83
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2:17p, 10/8/26
BUDOS was very clear, specific, and accurate.

I respect and appreciate his contribution here, and the manner in which he posted his thoughts.

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BusyTarpDuster2017
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 2:32p, 10/8/26
Oldbear83 said:
BUDOS was very clear, specific, and accurate.

I respect and appreciate his contribution here, and the manner in which he posted his thoughts.


Shocker. Of course you do. You are two who repeatedly refuse to defend God's glory and honor against clear, egregious Marian idolatry and heresy. Birds of a feather flock together.

How about you try my question? Are Spirit-moved empathy, understanding, compassion, charity and the desire to share the gospel with others fruits of the Spirit?
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In reply to BusyTarpDuster2017 • 2:34p, 10/8/26
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Oldbear83 said:
BUDOS was very clear, specific, and accurate.

I respect and appreciate his contribution here, and the manner in which he posted his thoughts.


Shocker. Of course you do. You are two who repeatedly refuse to defend God's glory and honor against clear, egregious Marian idolatry and heresy. Birds of a feather flock together.

I try to persuade fellow believers. I know enough History to understand that persecution of a brother for a different understanding is not only poor strategy, but the Gospels make clear that such behavior grieves the Holy Spirit.

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In reply to Oldbear83 • 2:41p, 10/8/26
Oldbear83 said:
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Oldbear83 said:
BUDOS was very clear, specific, and accurate.

I respect and appreciate his contribution here, and the manner in which he posted his thoughts.


Shocker. Of course you do. You are two who repeatedly refuse to defend God's glory and honor against clear, egregious Marian idolatry and heresy. Birds of a feather flock together.

I try to persuade fellow believers. I know enough History to understand that persecution of a brother for a different understanding is not only poor strategy, but the Gospels make clear that such behavior grieves the Holy Spirit.


So... you would consider Jesus turning over the money changers' tables and driving them out with a whip "persecution" for a "different understanding"? How about Paul when he anathematizes (damns) those who bring works into the gospel?

What if this "different understanding" is dead, dead, wrong, and the promotion of it leads people to Hell? Doesn't that grieve the Holy Spirit?

So, YOU try to persuade, but I don't? And I just have to say, that you don't try to persuade. You dodge questions that challenge your view, and in response you attack the person who's asking the question by calling them a "bully", "Pharisee", or saying they have "rage", all so that you can escape the question. People have seen this over, and over, and over. You really need to stop glorifying yourself as "having the Spirit" because a Spirit-led person does not do this, especially repeatedly, over and over and over. A person with the Spirit does not flub the gospel as you did. Ordinarily, a Christian would be humbled by that and realize that they need fixing, not others.
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