sombear said:"Only tentative: links? Seriously, have you studied it at all?Redbrickbear said:sombear said:But if you understood Kirill and what his leadership means in the ROC and its affiliates, I really don't see how you'd second guess for one second the banning of his church in Ukraine. That's why I assumed you supported him and the ROC.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Actually Kirill, the head of the church that you defend, has repeatedly stated this is a war for the soul of Christianity.Redbrickbear said:trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:The bold above is false. I know first hand what has happened to several evangelical churches and individuals including imprisonment. This was happening before the war in Ukraine and has only picked up in Russia.Sam Lowry said:Several points here that I would address.sombear said:
I am not Orthodox, but I've been surrounded by it most of my life. 90% of my relatives on one side are Serbian Orthodox. My wife's family are Russian immigrants and have a long history with the Russian Orthodox Church. Another part of our family is Greek Orthodox. BTW, the Russian orthodox church in the U.S. is different than the ROC.
I have the utmost respect for the church, so I don't say any of this to be critical, but rather just stating facts that many who do not follow the Orthodox churches probably don't know.
Orthodox churches have long been closely connected with their governments. More recently, for example, the Serbian church supported Milosevic and spoke out in favor of those wars. Unfortunately, Kirill - former KGB - in Russia is a Putin shill and has spoken out aggressively in favor of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
The Orthodox church also is exceedingly hierarchical. So, for example, the various Russian orthodox churches are governed by Kirill, and he dictates everything from church positions, how the church is run, and Divine Liturgies (weekly services, sermons worship.).
Two reasons for this background. One, when people hear complaints (usually from folks with no understanding) of Ukraine "banning Russian churches," they likely compare it to banning Christian churches here in the U.S. But it's nothing like that. When Ukraine "banned" the ROC, it was not in any way banning the Ortho church or communities, but rather, only those officially governed by and beholden to Kirill. Fortunately, many of those Ukrainian ROC priests disavowed Kirill, stopped referencing him during services, and spoke out against the invasion. Many changed to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine - not Russia-affiliated.
BTW, many also do not know that Putin and Russian agents tried mightily to prevent the formation of the OCU in the first place and used threats, coercion, and worse to keep priests and layfolk in the ROC
Two, there is nothing unusual about Eastern Orthodox Churches working with governments. Many such churches were anti-communists, including the Russian church. But since the fall of communism, various churches have taken different positions relative to democratic values, and even freedom of religion. The Russian church, for example, supported laws restricting other religions and again, has supported Putin. Other eastern churches have supported freedom and democracy.
It should surprise nobody that governments of all kinds - from Russia, to Greece, to Romania, to the U.S. and elsewhere - lend support and work with Ortho churches that share their values. That has been done for thousands of years.
But it is ludicrous to suggest that non-Russian orthodox churches are controlled by or beholden to the U.S. Frankly, that is deeply offensive to the Orthodox church.
1. It's true that Orthodoxy has always been closely tied with politics. I would argue that was the reason for the Eastern Schism in the first place. So, to say the Russian patriarch speaks in favor of his government's wars means very little. Even many Protestant churches in America do the same, and more to the point, so does the newly created Ukrainian church. They are all within their rights to do so. What the Russians don't do is ban other churches, brutally attack their congregants and clergy, and confiscate or destroy their property. Ukraine does all of these things to the Russian Orthodox.
2. Banning Orthodox churches with a connection to Russia is indeed banning Russian churches. It would be as if the US government banned Catholic churches governed by Rome, established a so-called American Catholic Church, and insisted that nothing had changed because all of those Catholic communities could continue existing as long as they renounced the pope and spoke out in favor of American policy.
3. I know you may not agree, but I must keep making the point that opposing Putin is not the equivalent of supporting democracy. Ukraine hasn't been a democracy in any meaningful sense for quite some time, and at this point it's no better than a tin-pot dictatorship ruled by an assortment of thugs, opportunists, and fanatics who are trying to sweep up as much ill-gotten gain as they can while they race for the exit.
4. The OCU would not exist, and would have no reason to exist, if not for the Western policy of sowing ethnic, religious, and political discord in Ukraine. Its origin has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with politics, as evidenced by the rhetoric of Poroshenko, the loyal Ukrainian hierarchy, and American supporters like Biden, McCain, et al.
The point being no one has held up Russia as some bastion of freedom and human rights.
But we have been sold this false propaganda about Ukraine being a bastion of Freedom....while Kyiv bans political parties, doesn't hold elections, allows only one party owned media outlet to report on the government, and shuts down Churches they don't like (UOC-MP)
There are literally people in this thread arguing that Russia is "the true bastion of Christianity" as one of their main factors in this deal. It's almost comical.
Yea yea that one bothers you.
I have no idea what idiot said that and its obvious not true.
Nor does anyone believe it
Between the corrupt bishops, the massive abortion rates, and the shutting down of rival protestant groups...its obvious Russia is not a defender of Christian values
Who was it anyway....Barbarian?
So goofy
When have I ever defended Krill and the ROC?
I literally said in the post above that Russia is no great role model for Christian civilization
(Neither is Western Europe for that matter)
Both Moscow, DC, and Brussels are far from moral
The ROC is corrupt but that does not the imply it's ok to suppress a church because Zelensky does not like it….a church with only tentative links to Moscow
The UOC-MP has been self governing for decades and officially condemned the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.
Suppressing it is a violation of free speech and freedom of religion.
And has no real purpose anyway….it only has the loyalty of about 6-8% of church goers in Ukriane….its a minority Church.
[In 2019, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was founded in accordance with then President Petro Poroshenko's "one nation, one church" vision. Poroshenko believed that an independent, national church was essential for national security, as opposed to the traditional UOC church, which was independent in governance but retained its legacy ecclesiastic connection with the Russian Orthodox Church based in Moscow. One way that the OCU displayed its nationalism was by replacing Slavonic with Ukrainian as its liturgical language.]
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/ukraines-two-wars/
Brush up on Orthodox terminology. "Self governing" is not "autonomous." Self governing was a made-up term, with virtually no meaning. "Autonomous" is the traditional Orthodox word for truly independent yet sometimes still affiliated. They literally were the Moscow Patriarchate.
Have you?
Because you still seem to think its under the control of the ROC
Not only is that not correct but you are inaccurate on the term....it is not Autonomous... its Autocephalous
[Autocephaly (literally "self-headed") is the status of a Local Church within the Orthodox Church whose primatial bishop does not report to any higher-ranking bishop. Autocephaly is granted when an ecumenical council or a high-ranking bishop such as a patriarch or other primate, releases an ecclesiastical province from all obligations to any higher authority within the Orthodox Church, while remaining in full communion with the bishops of that province]
The UOC-MP has been self governing since 1990
Its condemned the Russian invasion of Ukraine and declared totally independent in 2022
Read the article
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/uoc-mp-asserts-full-independence
[Ukrainian Orthodox Church affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate shifted Friday into a solemn legislative session, at which bishops made a surprise assertion of the Church's "full" independence..
It is not yet clear how that assertion will be received in Moscow]
The UOC-MP has done about all it can to assert its independence from Moscow. If the Russian Patriarch will not give it a Tomas (document granting it autocephaly) there is nothing the UOC-MP can do about that specific ecclesiastical point.
But the UOC-MP is independent.
Zelensky going out of his way to strip the UOC-MP of its parish church buildings and harass its priests and congregations is just bully behavior, a waste of time (its only 6% of the Ukrainian population anyway), and a gross violations of freedom of religion.
