Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

---

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

---

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

---

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)

---

Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

---

what a furious blizzard of unrealities that is.

noting the Chinese strategy is not endorsement of it. Any conflation of it with Israel is your own imputation for reasons that only barBEARean and a couple of others could appreciate.

---

I'm simply noting that China's gains are nothing to crow about.

And **** you for comparing me with Barbearian, BTW.

---

(sigh) noting what Chinese interests are is not an endorsement of them.

If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, quack quack mofo……

---

You're well aware of the realist argument against our support of Israel. Don't demean yourself by resorting to slander just because you may not agree with it.

---

It's hard to craft a serious realist argument for ending our policy support for Israel. Takes an irritable mixture of ignorance and isolationism with a splash of antisemitism to get there.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

---

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

---

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

---

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)

---

Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

---

what a furious blizzard of unrealities that is.

noting the Chinese strategy is not endorsement of it. Any conflation of it with Israel is your own imputation for reasons that only barBEARean and a couple of others could appreciate.

---

I'm simply noting that China's gains are nothing to crow about.

And **** you for comparing me with Barbearian, BTW.

---

(sigh) noting what Chinese interests are is not an endorsement of them.

If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, quack quack mofo……

---

You're well aware of the realist argument against our support of Israel. Don't demean yourself by resorting to slander just because you may not agree with it.

---

It's hard to craft a serious realist argument for ending our policy support for Israel. Takes an irritable mixture of ignorance and isolationism with a splash of antisemitism to get there.

---

So you're not aware…guess I overestimated you.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Assassin said:

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whiterock said:

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Ukraine gets the weapons. US companies get paid. EU taxpayers foot the bill. NATO countries can count the spend toward the 5% Trump got them to pledge. Things get harder for Russia in Ukraine.
#winning

President Trump is planning to sell weapons to NATO allies with the understanding that they will then provide them to Ukraine. @MarcACaputo @DavidLawler10 and me write for @axioshttps://t.co/HPxsARSjd1

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) July 11, 2025

---

Genius at work!

---

Really? This is that much different? We added a front man.


The gymnastics you guys go through to show Trump is different than Biden and Obama is actually comical. We are adding a Front man to the sale of weapons to Ukraine, tariffs are now Monroe Doctrine...

Guy Ritchie couldn't write this stuff...

---

Obama didn't do anything = no lethal aid whatsoever. (Trump 1.0 did). Biden gave it directly = the US taxpayer fronted the bill. But Biden slow walked the aid, dribbling & drabbling it out in a misguided notion of not over-escalating (allowing Russia time to mobilize).

Trump finds a way to give the aid, likely at a greater level (assuming he does what he said he would, which he typically does) only this time the Europeans will be paying for it.

Can you not see the gymnastics your hate forces you engage in?

---

Point taken, I realized that after posting. You are right on Obama. He sent money and apologized. Disgusting.

That was on me.


This is not much different than Biden. Just a "man behind the curtain act" to save face.

---

No it's not. The primary reason the right has been upset with Europe and the the Ukraine is that they are freeloaders. Trump has them paying for it.
Giving vs buying is not "close" to the same thing.

Americans wanted the war to end, so it wouldn't spill over. Biden didn't try. Trump did. Putin escalated after Americans gave him a decent path to peace. Now we'll sell to NATO in an effort to thwart the Russian escalation. Most conservatives are OK with selling weapons after Russia chose not to work towards peace.

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

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Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.

---

Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.

---

Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

---

Again proving my point. You rule out the possibility of a negotiated end to the war based on the fact that the war was started. By this logic no diplomacy would ever exist.

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.

---

Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

---

Again proving my point. You rule out the possibility of a negotiated end to the war based on the fact that the war was started. By this logic no diplomacy would ever exist.

---

I'm not ruling out diplomacy. I'm ruling out diplomacy "started/wanted37 other descriptors" by Lavrov/Putin. They don't want diplomacy. They never have. But keep wiping your chin off after they're done bud. You didn't mean to make it fun

After the 2016 election, John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Amy Klobuchar traveled to Ukraine together. After the trip they held a press conference and declared that Russia attacked the USA by hacking the 2016 election.

It was all lies. pic.twitter.com/8rKXSLpoaE

— MAZE (@mazemoore) July 19, 2025

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.

---

Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

---

Again proving my point. You rule out the possibility of a negotiated end to the war based on the fact that the war was started. By this logic no diplomacy would ever exist.

---

I'm not ruling out diplomacy. I'm ruling out diplomacy "started/wanted37 other descriptors" by Lavrov/Putin.

---

Demonstrating yet a third time that you neither know nor care what diplomacy is (hint: it's not something you impose on others without their agreement).

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.

---

Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

---

Again proving my point. You rule out the possibility of a negotiated end to the war based on the fact that the war was started. By this logic no diplomacy would ever exist.

---

I'm not ruling out diplomacy. I'm ruling out diplomacy "started/wanted37 other descriptors" by Lavrov/Putin.

---

Demonstrating yet a third time that you neither know nor care what diplomacy is (hint: it's not something you impose on others without their agreement).

---

Oh, but I do. I just don't care to continue this circle jerk of logic as you willfully ignore the stupidity in your analysis. "Lavrov this..Putin that…"

Those two DO NOT CARE ABOUT DIPLOMACY. They never have.

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

---

Again proving my point. You rule out the possibility of a negotiated end to the war based on the fact that the war was started. By this logic no diplomacy would ever exist.

---

I'm not ruling out diplomacy. I'm ruling out diplomacy "started/wanted37 other descriptors" by Lavrov/Putin.

---

Demonstrating yet a third time that you neither know nor care what diplomacy is (hint: it's not something you impose on others without their agreement).

---

Oh, but I do. I just don't care to continue this circle jerk of logic as you willfully ignore the stupidity in your analysis. "Lavrov this..Putin that…"

Those two DO NOT CARE ABOUT DIPLOMACY. They never have.

---

Oh, they care about diplomacy. They'll take all they can get via diplomacy. They're just not happy with what they're able to get with diplomacy (because their appetites are unreasonable). So they engage in war.

"War is the continuation of policy via other means."
-Carl von Clausewitz

whiterock said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

---

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

---

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.

---

Lavrov and Putin have less than zero interest in diplomacy, otherwise they would not have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and 2022

---

Again proving my point. You rule out the possibility of a negotiated end to the war based on the fact that the war was started. By this logic no diplomacy would ever exist.

---

I'm not ruling out diplomacy. I'm ruling out diplomacy "started/wanted37 other descriptors" by Lavrov/Putin.

---

Demonstrating yet a third time that you neither know nor care what diplomacy is (hint: it's not something you impose on others without their agreement).

---

Oh, but I do. I just don't care to continue this circle jerk of logic as you willfully ignore the stupidity in your analysis. "Lavrov this..Putin that…"

Those two DO NOT CARE ABOUT DIPLOMACY. They never have.

---

"War is the continuation of policy via other means."
-Carl von Clausewitz

---

He has some all time truisms

"The political object is the goal, war is the means of reaching it". -Clausewitz

"War is thus an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will" -Clausewitz

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

---

I didn't say it was unsolvable as it is and should be done today. I simply said that Trump doesn't have the stones to do it. Instead, he gave them 50 extra days. Trump will not let gasoline prices increase.

BREAKING:

Russia launches Kinzhal air-launched ballistic missiles on Kyiv pic.twitter.com/mZPMQNb5Bt

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) July 20, 2025

J.R. said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

---

I didn't say it was unsolvable as it is and should be done today. I simply said that Trump doesn't have the stones to do it. Instead, he gave them 50 extra days. Trump will not let gasoline prices increase.

---

the 50 days is paying homage to Art of War Chapter 36:

"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."

Putin is most definitely hard pressed. Nearly the entire world (that matters) is arrayed against him. His only real allies willing to help him are historic strategic rivals. Trump is giving Putin an opportunity to find justification for moving toward a cease fire.

There are reasons for Trump to be cautious, for sure, but gas prices are not going to be an obstacle. You can take it to the bank the Saudis have agreed to fill the gap. They did it to help collapse the USSR. The project is quite a bit smaller this time, given that so much of the former USSR's production is now controlled by countries who see Russia as a rival.

Trump just wants the Ukraine thing done, not because it's irrelevant but because it's a distraction from our preparations for China's move on Taiwan ca 24 months from now.

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

---

I didn't say it was unsolvable as it is and should be done today. I simply said that Trump doesn't have the stones to do it. Instead, he gave them 50 extra days. Trump will not let gasoline prices increase.

---

the 50 days is paying homage to Art of War Chapter 36:

"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."

---

No to get us dragged into war strategy talk...but not sure people like Napoleon or Patton agreed with that.

They wanted to press the enemy army everywhere and at all times....and once they had cut if off and surround it...to move in and completely destroy it.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

---

I didn't say it was unsolvable as it is and should be done today. I simply said that Trump doesn't have the stones to do it. Instead, he gave them 50 extra days. Trump will not let gasoline prices increase.

---

the 50 days is paying homage to Art of War Chapter 36:

"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."

---

No to get us dragged into war strategy talk...but not sure people like Napoleon or Patton agreed with that.

They wanted to press the enemy army everywhere and at all times....and once they had cut if off and surround it...to move in and completely destroy it.

---

A moot question as it's the Ukrainian forces that are increasingly surrounded. Pokrovsk is showing signs of rapid collapse since the Russians began storming it a week or so ago. The last remaining suburb of Chasiv Yar looks set to fall around the same time. That sets up the endgame in Sloviansk/Kramatorsk/Konstantinovka.

For all you that think we serve Israel, here's an alternative view.

Makes you proud to be British 😂😂
🫡🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧✊ pic.twitter.com/po9KdhS0mt

— Hampsta (@Hampsta4) July 19, 2025

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

---

I didn't say it was unsolvable as it is and should be done today. I simply said that Trump doesn't have the stones to do it. Instead, he gave them 50 extra days. Trump will not let gasoline prices increase.

---

the 50 days is paying homage to Art of War Chapter 36:

"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."

---

No to get us dragged into war strategy talk...but not sure people like Napoleon or Patton agreed with that.

They wanted to press the enemy army everywhere and at all times....and once they had cut if off and surround it...to move in and completely destroy it.

---

A moot question as it's the Ukrainian forces that are increasingly surrounded. Pokrovsk is showing signs of rapid collapse since the Russians began storming it a week or so ago. The last remaining suburb of Chasiv Yar looks set to fall around the same time. That sets up the endgame in Sloviansk/Kramatorsk/Konstantinovka.

---

Chasiv Yar. Population 12,500.
It is a crossroads village on the Eurasian steppe.
The battle started in April 2024.
Russia claims it controls 90%.

And yet you cite it as an example of Russian power and imminent victory in the war.

Hint: if you're a grown man and still have training wheels on your bicycle, don't pretend to be Lance Armstrong.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

whiterock said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

---

1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

---

proxy war my ass. The real reason fat man continues to be played by Putin is that the only sanctions that will have any bite are huge penalties on India and China for importing Russian Oil. This will make gasoline prices rise dramatically which ruin fat boy's lying narrative. That is the real reason.

---

you are correct about the reason, but wrong about it being an unsolvable problem.

We did it to them to end the cold war. It'll be quite a bit easier to do it this time. Russia no longer owns vast reserves of cheap, easy, high-grade oil in Central Asia & the Caucasus, all of whom will be willing to increase production to poke Russia in the eye. Add in the Saudis, who Trump has courted assiduously (and successfully) and all the dominoes are in place. Add in some more sanctions on Iran the Chinese will have an array of high-cost options to help Russia.

36% of the Russian budget is deficit spending. They are tapped out. Won't take much.

---

I didn't say it was unsolvable as it is and should be done today. I simply said that Trump doesn't have the stones to do it. Instead, he gave them 50 extra days. Trump will not let gasoline prices increase.

---

the 50 days is paying homage to Art of War Chapter 36:

"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."

---

No to get us dragged into war strategy talk...but not sure people like Napoleon or Patton agreed with that.

They wanted to press the enemy army everywhere and at all times....and once they had cut if off and surround it...to move in and completely destroy it.

---

A moot question as it's the Ukrainian forces that are increasingly surrounded. Pokrovsk is showing signs of rapid collapse since the Russians began storming it a week or so ago. The last remaining suburb of Chasiv Yar looks set to fall around the same time. That sets up the endgame in Sloviansk/Kramatorsk/Konstantinovka.

---

Chasiv Yar. Population 12,500.
It is a crossroads village on the Eurasian steppe.
The battle started in April 2024.
Russia claims it controls 90%.

And yet you cite it as an example of Russian power and imminent victory in the war.

Hint: if you're a grown man and still have training wheels on your bicycle, don't pretend to be Lance Armstrong.

---

Even setting aside the initial prediction of "taking Kyiv in 2-3 days," we've been hearing for years how Ukraine was one or two battles or one or towns away from total collapse.

Hell, Chasiv Yar signified this supposed collapse a year ago!

Sumy was supposedly gone months ago, Povrosk, too. Kharkiv before that.

I guess anything can happen, but I've seen no neutral analysts predicting any king of Ukrainian collapse. Rather, they all the same thing. Neither side is showing the capacity to make significant gains.

It's interesting that Russia gaining control of Luhansk, and before long Donetsk, is not considered a significant gain. If that's the case, it's hard to see why the conflict wasn't resolved a long time ago. Under the Minsk Agreement the Donbas wouldn't even have been annexed but would only have received limited autonomy. A trivial concession by your standard, yet we refused to implement it.

Sam Lowry said:

---

It's interesting that Russia gaining control of Luhansk, and before long Donetsk, is not considered a significant gain. If that's the case, it's hard to see why the conflict wasn't resolved a long time ago. Under the Minsk Agreement the Donbas wouldn't even have been annexed but would only have received limited autonomy. A trivial concession by your standard, yet we refused to implement it.

---

Sam, the disturbing conclusion I am coming to about our foreign policy - regardless of if a (R) or (D) administration is in charge - is that it comes down to this one thing:

Christians die.

It was true of our targeting choices for the bomb at the end of World War 2. More recently, our support for the Arab Spring, the war in Iraq, Ukraine, Syria...

It is a disturbing conclusion but it is hard to avoid.

Think of the logical inconsistencies of the those promoting WW3: Russia is a gas station with nuclear weapons! Russia can't even beat Ukraine! Russia is going to invade the NATO countries!

Or is it merely the hatred for a white Christian nation that rejected communism and globalism?

Sam Lowry said:

---

It's interesting that Russia gaining control of Luhansk, and before long Donetsk, is not considered a significant gain. If that's the case, it's hard to see why the conflict wasn't resolved a long time ago. Under the Minsk Agreement the Donbas wouldn't even have been annexed but would only have received limited autonomy. A trivial concession by your standard, yet we refused to implement it.

---

lol it's not significant because they already owned +90% of it and two years later they still don't own it all but have spent 1.2m casualties, millions of arty rounds, thousands of tanks, etc......

They're gaining 100acs or so a day and spending 1500 combat casualties to do it. At that rate, there aren't enough Russians to take half of everything east of the Dnieper, much less the whole country. But they'll run out of money and/or ammo before they run out of men.....

Sam Lowry said:

---

It's interesting that Russia gaining control of Luhansk, and before long Donetsk, is not considered a significant gain. If that's the case, it's hard to see why the conflict wasn't resolved a long time ago. Under the Minsk Agreement the Donbas wouldn't even have been annexed but would only have received limited autonomy. A trivial concession by your standard, yet we refused to implement it.

---

It only took them 11 years . . . .

Sam, this you? Hope you're ok.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/father-moved-family-russia-escape-153940643.html

Perspective.

This is the map from the end of Ukraine's counteroffensive at the end of 2022, vs now in July 2025. The dark red line is now, the lighter one was then. Look at the macro picture.

We often have people in our replies going "You're reporting Ukraine losing village… pic.twitter.com/fz64rwF95x

— Ukraine Control Map (@UAControlMap) July 21, 2025

The dictator of Ukraine and his Politburo shut down the NABU (National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine) and SAPO (Specialized Anti-Corruption Prosecutor's Office) and the Ukrainians are finally rising up. Or this could be a new color revolution designed to sweep away the leadership installed by the last color revolution because the "Kiev Independent" (which is anything but) is reporting favorably on the new protests.

Either way, it appears as if "Wyyyynston Churchill" is on his way out.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/07/day-after-zelensky-arrests-anti-corruption-officials-signs/

THE DAY AFTER: Zelensky Arrests Anti-corruption Officials, Signs Law Stripping Agencies of Power Protesters Flood the Streets, and Ukraine Will Never Be the Same

"The 'defender of democracy' is now openly challenged by his own citizens.

Many were caught by surprise by yesterday's protests in Kiev, Lvov, Odessa, and other parts of Ukraine after all, these are the absolute first since the war began three and a half years ago.

But here at TGP we have been closely following the escalating tensions inside the war-torn country.

Four days ago (19), we reported that Amid Collapsing Morale, Ukrainians 'Lost Faith' in Zelensky, With 70% Convinced That Kiev Regime Leaders Are Using the War to Enrich Themselves: REPORT.

The following day (20), there was this thought-provoking development: Pulitzer Prize Winner Seymour Hersh Reports That US May Move to Oust Zelensky, Even by Force General Zaluzhny Would Be Tasked for Succession.

On Monday (21), we showed Zelensky's efforts to change the image of his regime: CHARM OFFENSIVE: Zelensky Reshuffles His Government, Aiming to Show a Different Side of Ukraine for the US and the World.

Meanwhile, on the same Monday, Ukraine's domestic security agency detained two NABU (Anti-corruption agency) officials on 'suspicion of links to Russia'.

Finally, yesterday, after the Parliament voted to strip the Anti-Corruption agencies of any real power, it was the final straw, and Massive Protests Erupt Against Zelensky in Ukraine."

Oh, and unlike CNN and MSDNC, Pravda isn't half bad these days.

https://news-pravda.com/

Try joining us in the 21st century.

Realitybites said:

---

Oh, and unlike CNN and MSDNC, Pravda isn't half bad these days.

https://news-pravda.com/

Try joining us in the 21st century.

---

These Boomercons are forever locked in the "unipolar moment" of the 1990s. When it all burns down, they won't budge. The only question is how much of the neighborhood they'll take with them.