Why Are We in Ukraine?

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Redbrickbear
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lol


KaiBear
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ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

ron.reagan said:

KaiBear said:

Assassin said:

KaiBear said:

Putin massing over 120,000 troops for the final push; as Ukraine is ready to collapse.

As money simply cannot replace lost blood, bone and brain matter.

Hate to see Putin win this; but Biden - Harris totally mishandled the entire situation.

Now unless Trump commits US troops, naval units and a no fly zone..............

Ukranine is finished.

He's read the room. No help to Zelensky

Putin has read the battlefield.....Zelensky has rin out of soldiers.

He's no where near out. He has more potential soldier than any country in Europe right now...


What is the source of these potential soldiers ?

Exactly how many casualties do you think Ukraine has taken? What is their population? How bad are you at math?

I believe Ukraine has over 300.000 of its combat aged men either killed or wounded.

Am actually pretty good at math.

Do you really think Ukraine is going to win this war ?

How many 15,16,17 year olds are now 18+ since the war started, Pythagoras?



The better question is how many 15,16,and 17 year olds have already been killed or crippled for life.



If I had to guess I'd say around 7.


Try guessing again when it's not one of your drinking nights.

I agree with your wife that you aren't smart


Indeed I am fortunate to be married to an intelligent and extremely attractive woman.

Does your wife appreciate your 3 nights a week drinking sessions ?

Since we don't share an interest in jewelry like you I think she does appreciate discussing the wine collection


Not interested in jewelry….except the diamonds, rubies, and emeralds that we have purchased for my wife.

However we both enjoy investing in Rolex and Cartier watches.
Although haven't got a call from our authorized dealer for anything on our list since last December.

Which is ok, I guess as we have been upgrading our real estate portfolio lately.

But you go ahead and enjoy drinking all that wine.

I actually just carry it around with me so people think I'm important

Well then by your own admission you are super important at least 3 days a week.

You better pray your liver is super important as well.



FLBear5630
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Assassin said:

whiterock said:

Ukraine gets the weapons. US companies get paid. EU taxpayers foot the bill. NATO countries can count the spend toward the 5% Trump got them to pledge. Things get harder for Russia in Ukraine.
#winning



Genius at work!

Really? This is that much different? We added a front man.


The gymnastics you guys go through to show Trump is different than Biden and Obama is actually comical. We are adding a Front man to the sale of weapons to Ukraine, tariffs are now Monroe Doctrine...

Guy Ritchie couldn't write this stuff...
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

Assassin said:

whiterock said:

Ukraine gets the weapons. US companies get paid. EU taxpayers foot the bill. NATO countries can count the spend toward the 5% Trump got them to pledge. Things get harder for Russia in Ukraine.
#winning



Genius at work!

Really? This is that much different? We added a front man.


The gymnastics you guys go through to show Trump is different than Biden and Obama is actually comical. We are adding a Front man to the sale of weapons to Ukraine, tariffs are now Monroe Doctrine...

Guy Ritchie couldn't write this stuff...


Obama didn't do anything = no lethal aid whatsoever. (Trump 1.0 did). Biden gave it directly = the US taxpayer fronted the bill. But Biden slow walked the aid, dribbling & drabbling it out in a misguided notion of not over-escalating (allowing Russia time to mobilize).

Trump finds a way to give the aid, likely at a greater level (assuming he does what he said he would, which he typically does) only this time the Europeans will be paying for it.

Can you not see the gymnastics your hate forces you engage in?

FLBear5630
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whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

Assassin said:

whiterock said:

Ukraine gets the weapons. US companies get paid. EU taxpayers foot the bill. NATO countries can count the spend toward the 5% Trump got them to pledge. Things get harder for Russia in Ukraine.
#winning



Genius at work!

Really? This is that much different? We added a front man.


The gymnastics you guys go through to show Trump is different than Biden and Obama is actually comical. We are adding a Front man to the sale of weapons to Ukraine, tariffs are now Monroe Doctrine...

Guy Ritchie couldn't write this stuff...


Obama didn't do anything = no lethal aid whatsoever. (Trump 1.0 did). Biden gave it directly = the US taxpayer fronted the bill. But Biden slow walked the aid, dribbling & drabbling it out in a misguided notion of not over-escalating (allowing Russia time to mobilize).

Trump finds a way to give the aid, likely at a greater level (assuming he does what he said he would, which he typically does) only this time the Europeans will be paying for it.

Can you not see the gymnastics your hate forces you engage in?



Point taken, I realized that after posting. You are right on Obama. He sent money and apologized. Disgusting.

That was on me.


This is not much different than Biden. Just a "man behind the curtain act" to save face.

Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

Assassin said:

whiterock said:

Ukraine gets the weapons. US companies get paid. EU taxpayers foot the bill. NATO countries can count the spend toward the 5% Trump got them to pledge. Things get harder for Russia in Ukraine.
#winning



Genius at work!

Really? This is that much different? We added a front man.


The gymnastics you guys go through to show Trump is different than Biden and Obama is actually comical. We are adding a Front man to the sale of weapons to Ukraine, tariffs are now Monroe Doctrine...

Guy Ritchie couldn't write this stuff...


Obama didn't do anything = no lethal aid whatsoever. (Trump 1.0 did). Biden gave it directly = the US taxpayer fronted the bill. But Biden slow walked the aid, dribbling & drabbling it out in a misguided notion of not over-escalating (allowing Russia time to mobilize).

I've got it!

I know what the pattern is now. Any month that contains the letter "r," slow-walking the aid is a brilliant strategy for bleeding the Russian army and economy. Any month without an "r," it's a blunder that prolongs the war and puts Ukraine at risk of defeat. Am I right?
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

Assassin said:

whiterock said:

Ukraine gets the weapons. US companies get paid. EU taxpayers foot the bill. NATO countries can count the spend toward the 5% Trump got them to pledge. Things get harder for Russia in Ukraine.
#winning



Genius at work!

Really? This is that much different? We added a front man.


The gymnastics you guys go through to show Trump is different than Biden and Obama is actually comical. We are adding a Front man to the sale of weapons to Ukraine, tariffs are now Monroe Doctrine...

Guy Ritchie couldn't write this stuff...


Obama didn't do anything = no lethal aid whatsoever. (Trump 1.0 did). Biden gave it directly = the US taxpayer fronted the bill. But Biden slow walked the aid, dribbling & drabbling it out in a misguided notion of not over-escalating (allowing Russia time to mobilize).

I've got it!

I know what the pattern is now. Any month that contains the letter "r," slow-walking the aid is a brilliant strategy for bleeding the Russian army and economy. Any month without an "r," it's a blunder that prolongs the war and puts Ukraine at risk of defeat. Am I right?

rarely, and even less so on this war.

The victory model for smaller countries (like Ukraine) to defeat larger powers (like Russia) typically involves a quick, decisive victory in a war of maneuver, which this war was its early stages. Biden perceived such an outcome as high-risk and therefore slow-walked aid to avoid provocative escalation, delaying for months/years the delivery of systems that would have made a difference when the conflict was still a war of maneuver. Biden's policy of "as long as it takes" guaranteed the war would devolve into a grinding war of attrition. So many restrictions on weapons systems, use of weapons systems, restrictive ROE across the board, etc....

Geopolitics is in most cases a balancing act. For a responsible major power, the imperative should not be to dominate the world but to prevent anyone else from doing so. In this case, that balancing act weighs the need to see Russia fail in Ukraine (which on balance it clearly has) without collapsing the Russian state (which has happened twice in the last 110 years following unsuccessful foreign adventures), which could set of an unstable chain reaction:
-China invading Siberia
-Turkey invading one or more Caucasus states (risking Nato unity)
-one or more new islamic states the Caucasus/Eurasian steppe
-weapons proliferations
-an even more erratic Russian successor state
-etc.....

Biden was so cautious that it actually emboldened Russian mis-assessments of western resolve, He delivered everything Ukraine asked for, a year ore more after they needed it, guaranteeing the war would devolve into the quagmire it is. Putin cannot win (unless Nato throws in the towel) but cannot afford to lose (as he would be held personally accountable). That's why we've seen Trump for 6 months allow Putin a face-saving way to exit the war via negotiations. to include building a personal relationship with Putin which often can be a difference maker in razor-edge diplomacy = Putin must see a pathway to peace that involves his personal survival. We are now seeing Trump pivot back to pressure with escalated arms sales to Ukraine and a resumption of integrated intel sharing.

Biden's error was that his escalation management policy guaranteed the war would become exactly the risk to stability of the Russian state that the policy was ostensibly intended to prevent. The Russian state could have easily survived a quick and early defeat in Ukraine with its army mostly intact. Hang a few generals for incompetence and move on down the road. Now, Putin personally owns an army is shattered, an economy is fully mobilized yet still unable to produce at a level needed to overwhelm, and recruitment bonuses are not just unsustainable but a major driver of Russian inflation. On the current course, the war seems certain to drag on another 18 months or so...Russia slowly bleeding out yet every day more and more resolved NOT to end the war.

And China smiles. A Europe preparing for war against Russia (which is where we are) is a Europe distracted from resisting Chinese expansion in Asia.

The post-WWII order prevented major power conflict for 80 years, a peace of unprecedented length in human history. But it is quite apparent that autocratic powers sense weakness in the West = deterrence lost. That's why Trump demanded Nato to increase spending to 5% of GDP. Choppy waters ahead.


Realitybites
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Quote:


And China smiles. A Europe preparing for war against Russia (which is where we are) is a Europe distracted from resisting Chinese expansion in Asia.




China is a serious threat. The problem is that we have let it fester for so long (and continue to do so) that it may be too late to do anything about it.

They are waging a covert Opium War against us.

https://tuckercarlson.com/high-crimes-official-trailer
Sam Lowry
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So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.
Redbrickbear
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They are decommissioning their only aircraft carrier

whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

I'm against the vanity of thinking I'm smart enough to deftly control the fate of empires large and small. One must, of course, put up with some nonsense (and we do). When one must move, one should do so decisively to send Pavlovian lessons to watching adversaries. And when one must act but faces an array of undesirable outcomes, one simply cannot dither to avoid making a mistake (as Biden did). One must choose a course of action which runs the risks one would prefer to deal with. In that regard, the failure of the Ukrainian state is decidedly worse outcome for us than the failure of the Russian state. The former elevates risks of a Nato war with a stronger Russia; the latter is an instability problem over which we would have a lot of influence and a preponderance of of "not worse" or even better outcomes (almost none of which involve war with Russia).

It's a little past time to lower the boom on Russian sanctions and arm Ukraine up to destroy Russian energy infrastructure, which is the beating heart of the Russian state. The key thing necessary for that to work is to get the Saudis on board to ramp up oil production to cover the ensuing disruption to global supply. I'd be stunned, given the close relationship Trump has restored with Saudi, if that has not already been arranged.

It took a decade for a smaller Afghan conflict to collapse the far more powerful USSR. The Ukraine War is frightfully more expensive in dollars and lives and Russia has far less resources to wage it. They simply cannot continue what they're doing indefinitely. Nato can easily afford to outlast them, but why spend so much money? Crack the nut now.

We are in the foothills of WWIII. It'll be a LOT cheaper & easier to win it now than later.


Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.
Bear8084
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.


LOL. No.
Mitch Blood Green
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Have been, continue to be very proud of those Ukrainians. If Afghans had half their balls, they'd have kept their country protected from the Taliban.

Should have trained the women.
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)




Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.
Redbrickbear
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Mitch Blood Green said:

Have been, continue to be very proud of those Ukrainians. If Afghans had half their balls, they'd have kept their country protected from the Taliban.

Should have trained the women.


The Taliban were the Afghans

This is the second time the Afghan people have let them take power. They always had lots of local supporters (extremely high levels among the Pashtuns)

That is what Western liberals never understood.

Afghans want to be violent Bronze Age Islamists who beat their women and sexual abuse young boys. All while engaging in endless clan based warfare

And even when other Afghans opposed them…it was not because of what the Taliban believed/preached…it was more for ethnic reasons. (Pashtun vs Tajik stuff or Pashtun vs Hazara stuff)

What is the old saying about how every people eventually get the government the deserve….


PS

Even when afghans go other places they don't change



whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

what a furious blizzard of unrealities that is.

noting the Chinese strategy is not endorsement of it. Any conflation of it with Israel is your own imputation for reasons that only barBEARean and a couple of others could appreciate.

FLBear5630
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Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

Yet when we try to pull Ukraine into our orbit it is bad...
Redbrickbear
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FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

Yet when we try to pull Ukraine into our orbit it is bad...


Well to tell the truth...it was a foolish thing to try....its spilt milk and all now.

But yea....trying to pull a major strategic country for Moscow out of their orbit was gonna be a bloody affair.

Not to mention one that had millions of ethnic russians living inside it, was home to their black sea fleet, and had great historic importance to them (Kevan Russ' and the start of E. Orthodoxy among the Slavs and all that)


In the end...like always...Kissinger was right.

We should not have tried it....now that war is here...we should finish the job and bring the majority of Ukraine controlled by Kiev into the Western Orbit

[In a commentary for The Washington Post less than a month after Moscow's seizure of Crimea, Kissinger argued that "to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country."]

["Before this war, I was opposed to the membership of Ukraine in NATO because I feared that it would start the very process that we are seeing now," he told Zelenskiy. "Now that this process has reached this level, the idea of a neutral Ukraine under these conditions no longer makes sense."]


https://www.rferl.org/a/henry-kissinger-evolution-views-russia-ukraine-obituary/32708682.html
J.R.
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Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

what a furious blizzard of unrealities that is.

noting the Chinese strategy is not endorsement of it. Any conflation of it with Israel is your own imputation for reasons that only barBEARean and a couple of others could appreciate.



I'm simply noting that China's gains are nothing to crow about.

And **** you for comparing me with Barbearian, BTW.
Sam Lowry
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FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

Yet when we try to pull Ukraine into our orbit it is bad...

The difference is that China isn't going to war over Russia.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.
boognish_bear
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ron.reagan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.

This is the guy that thought we had 17 patriot systems to give to Ukraine. I don't think anyone that follows this war would have thought that was on the table.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.


Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

what a furious blizzard of unrealities that is.

noting the Chinese strategy is not endorsement of it. Any conflation of it with Israel is your own imputation for reasons that only barBEARean and a couple of others could appreciate.



I'm simply noting that China's gains are nothing to crow about.

And **** you for comparing me with Barbearian, BTW.

(sigh) noting what Chinese interests are is not an endorsement of them.

If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, quack quack mofo……
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

So now you're against collapsing the Russian state? You're a rarity among the neocon tribe if that's true.

We are in the foothills of WWIII.

If we don't get there, it won't be for lack of trying.

To compare Ukraine with Afghanistan is to misread the underlying geopolitics as well as day-to-day events on the battlefield. Regarding the latter, the recent agreement to exchange the remains of deceased soldiers tells you something about who's paying the price in lives. Ukraine has received over 6,000 bodies, while Russia has received less than 100.
LOL talk about clueless!

If we wanted to confront Russia on ground where they have maximum incentive to win, minimum logistical difficulties, and ideal conditions for their method of warfare, we couldn't have chosen better than Ukraine. It's different from Afghanistan in almost every relevant way.

(Sigh) I didn't pose them as comparables. I pointed out how they are drastically different, i.e. drastically more costly for a significantly weaker Russia. And STILL Russia spends thousands of lives per day for advances of yards (despite Russia having drastically simplified logistical difficulties).

A Chinese official commented yesterday that China "did not want Russia to lose" in Ukraine. That says a lot about where the war actually is. Also suggests that China realizes that Trump is going to start applying maximum pressure on Russia, that such pressure will have significant impact on Russia, and that China might step up to counter-balance.. China, you see, does not want Russia to lose, as that would allow the West to pivot to focus on stopping China in Asia.

China wants the war to continue. Not for Russia to win. Wants Russia and Nato to grind on and bleed each other out, thereby enfeebling Russia further while also complicating Western efforts to organize a response to a Chinese move on Taiwan. Trump has let his frustration show that he cannot force the conflict in Ukraine to an end, as it must for us to bring all resources to bear upon China. We are in the foothills of WWIII.

We collapsed the USSR by cutting off lines of credit and collapsing their oil revenue.
It'd be so much easier this time. (which is why China made the comment it did. They know it, too.)






Russia is not spending thousands of lives per day. We are not cutting them off from credit or oil revenue. We are cutting off our own nose to spite our face.

Trump doesn't even know the difference between tariffs and sanctions. Sanctions against Russia have already failed to have the planned effect. Secondary tariffs will do no better and will serve no economic purpose except to punish ourselves and our allies. Meanwhile we've started a war with Iran and had to beg China to keep the Persian Gulf open.

You're saying China won't let Russia lose, but on the plus side they will help Russia bleed NATO, prevent us from moving on Taiwan any time soon, strengthen military ties with our rivals, and help consolidate global economic power against us. And you consider this a brilliant strategic victory because...Russia and China aren't as lovey-dovey as the US and Israel? News flash: they can have a formidable alliance and still have their own interests. That's how grown-up nations work. And deep down, China couldn't be more grateful to us for pushing Russia into its orbit instead of pulling it into ours.

what a furious blizzard of unrealities that is.

noting the Chinese strategy is not endorsement of it. Any conflation of it with Israel is your own imputation for reasons that only barBEARean and a couple of others could appreciate.



I'm simply noting that China's gains are nothing to crow about.

And **** you for comparing me with Barbearian, BTW.

(sigh) noting what Chinese interests are is not an endorsement of them.

If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, quack quack mofo……


You're well aware of the realist argument against our support of Israel. Don't demean yourself by resorting to slander just because you may not agree with it.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.


Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.
Bear8084
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.


Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.


ROFL. Not even close to any kind of reality.
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.


Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.
when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.


Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.
ron.reagan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

trey3216 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

J.R. said:

Trump is such a meow TACO. Putin has repeatedly played Trump and made him look like an absolute fool. Why in the world would he give them 50 days? Sanctions should go into effect today, period.


1. He has continued the proxy war with Russia you were afraid he would end.

So nothing has changed on that front.

2. If there is a general large scale war with Russia....Trump giving him 50 days and making every attempt to come to some kind of reasonable agreement with the government in Moscow will go down in history as a reasonable and peace seeking offer.

It will prove it was Putin....and not Trump or the USA...that wanted the conflict to go on.

Not to bring up Nazi examples all the time...but

Similar to the Munich agreement...an agreement that was a reasonable thing....the allies offered Hitler the chance for peace. "You can have all the old German inhabited lands....but you have to stop now or there will be war. You can't invade Poland."

Hitler had a chance for peace....and to be the leader of a much enlarged and powerful Germany...he decided he wanted general European war and invaded Poland.

The Munich agreement was not a stupid mistake...it was a reasonable compromise that allowed the Allies to go down in history as the side seeking peace and finally drawing a line.

You're assuming there will be a history and we'll be the victors who write it.

In truth it's the same song, third verse. We pretend to negotiate while steering steadily into war.


Well we know Americans (and average Brits and French) did not want war in 1939-1940

They understandably wanted to give peace a chance.

The same is true today in 2025

I also think Trump wants the same.

If Putin blows that chance it's on him….

It's not like there's been any real negotiation. The Ukrainians have ghosted the Russians on further talks in Istanbul. Lavrov pitched a new offer to Rubio last week and got nothing but Trump's Monday rant in return.

Of course average Americans didn't want war in 1940, or in 1916. How much difference did that make? Like I said, same old song.

when you are taking Lavrov's word as bond, you have shown your ass.


Not that you haven't hundreds of times over on this thread

All I said was that he'd made an offer. Your response only shows how little interest you have in diplomacy.

That said, people who are interested in diplomacy tend to regard Lavrov highly. Colin Powell once confided to his chief of staff that he had never known Sergey to be untruthful.


This Colin Powell?

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