Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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trey3216 said:

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They are always ready to fight to the last dead Ukrainian.

All the while telling us victory against Putler is just another $100 billion in US taxpayer cash away from happening.

---

For someone who speaks out so often against meddling, you sure have no problem speaking for the Ukrainian people. As has been the case in most countries throughout history, Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to defend their country. Most are willing to risk their lives.

.

---

Tens of thousands of eastern Ukrainians have been fighting since 2014 to get independence from the U.S. backed government in Kyiv.

And let's not forget the many thousands and thousands fleeing out of the country to avoid fighting in this proxy war.

The Ukrainian people are not of a single mind on this war… you sure as hell don't know what they all think.

You wanna get your balls blown off fighting the big bad russkies then get on a plane buddy and head over.

Zelensky would be happy to have another pawn.

---

and many of those "tens of thousands" were ordered to fight against Ukraine at the barrel of a Russian rifle. Let's not forget the 3mm+ St. Pete and Muscovite men that fled their country so they don't get marched to slaughter in Andiivka and Bakhmut at the orders of their General Major Lieutenant Sergeant

---

Sure, both sides are forcing men to fight who don't want to.

DC and Moscow don't care about their proxy forces. And there are lots of people on both sides who don't want to fight this conflict.

---

The only people forcing Ukrainians to fight are Russians. Not proxies, but actual Russian military regulars.

But I thought you said DC cared too much? Which is it? They don't care so they let them get slaughtered, or they care too much about them and not the American people that they waste Billions of our tax dollars on Ukrainians?

---

You think DC is not getting a huge cut from that money being spent?

You don't think DC is making money by insider trading on defense stocks?


They obviously don't care about dead Ukrainians anymore than they care about dead Iraqis, afghans, or Syrians


Heck they don't even really care about Americans

---

it's not really insider trading when they're literally at war, and when we knew they were going to be at war,

---

Again they…not us


When the heck did Ukraine become a part of the USA or even an enrolled rally of the USA?

You and the rest of the boomers on here act like we are obligated to spend billions on this corrupt falling apart Eastern European State that apparently can't remain on good terms with its larger neighbor.

A corrupt state than could not even beat some separatists in the Donbas.

But yes I agree that DC insides saw the conflict coming, rooted it on, and have profited obscenely on the bloodshed since.

---

boomer?!! lol, I'm like 5 years older than you

---

the genetic fallacy is part of his DNA.

All he can do is whine that Russia is no threat to us, as if the Cold War never happened. As if the last 20 years of Russian aggression never happened..

---

Yea I forgot now Russia has been moving its military alliance closer to our borders and building up bases right on our door step over the last 20 years




In reality is the geopolitical situation is more like:

---

Thank you RedbrickRussianbear, but you forget that the current landscape vis-a-vis Russia is due the Soviet Union callapse under Western policy. The landscape that Putin wants to return to is much different, and far more harsh and repressive on the territories Putin wants to reclaim.

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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trey3216 said:

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They are always ready to fight to the last dead Ukrainian.

All the while telling us victory against Putler is just another $100 billion in US taxpayer cash away from happening.

---

For someone who speaks out so often against meddling, you sure have no problem speaking for the Ukrainian people. As has been the case in most countries throughout history, Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to defend their country. Most are willing to risk their lives.

.

---

Tens of thousands of eastern Ukrainians have been fighting since 2014 to get independence from the U.S. backed government in Kyiv.

And let's not forget the many thousands and thousands fleeing out of the country to avoid fighting in this proxy war.

The Ukrainian people are not of a single mind on this war… you sure as hell don't know what they all think.

You wanna get your balls blown off fighting the big bad russkies then get on a plane buddy and head over.

Zelensky would be happy to have another pawn.

---

and many of those "tens of thousands" were ordered to fight against Ukraine at the barrel of a Russian rifle. Let's not forget the 3mm+ St. Pete and Muscovite men that fled their country so they don't get marched to slaughter in Andiivka and Bakhmut at the orders of their General Major Lieutenant Sergeant

---

Sure, both sides are forcing men to fight who don't want to.

DC and Moscow don't care about their proxy forces. And there are lots of people on both sides who don't want to fight this conflict.

---

The only people forcing Ukrainians to fight are Russians. Not proxies, but actual Russian military regulars.

But I thought you said DC cared too much? Which is it? They don't care so they let them get slaughtered, or they care too much about them and not the American people that they waste Billions of our tax dollars on Ukrainians?

---

You think DC is not getting a huge cut from that money being spent?

You don't think DC is making money by insider trading on defense stocks?


They obviously don't care about dead Ukrainians anymore than they care about dead Iraqis, afghans, or Syrians


Heck they don't even really care about Americans

---

it's not really insider trading when they're literally at war, and when we knew they were going to be at war,

---

Again they…not us


When the heck did Ukraine become a part of the USA or even an enrolled rally of the USA?

You and the rest of the boomers on here act like we are obligated to spend billions on this corrupt falling apart Eastern European State that apparently can't remain on good terms with its larger neighbor.

A corrupt state than could not even beat some separatists in the Donbas.

But yes I agree that DC insides saw the conflict coming, rooted it on, and have profited obscenely on the bloodshed since.

---

boomer?!! lol, I'm like 5 years older than you

---

the genetic fallacy is part of his DNA.

All he can do is whine that Russia is no threat to us, as if the Cold War never happened. As if the last 20 years of Russian aggression never happened..

---

Yea I forgot now Russia has been moving its military alliance closer to our borders and building up bases right on our door step over the last 20 years




In reality is the geopolitical situation is more like:

---

Thank you RedbrickRussianbear, but you forget that the current landscape vis-a-vis Russia is due the Soviet Union callapse under Western policy. The landscape that Putin wants to return to is much different, and far more harsh and repressive on the territories Putin wants to reclaim.

---

NATO and its 31 nations and its 950 million citizens (including some of the richest most economically powerful nations on earth- USA, UK, France, Germany) will never be safe until we get a US military base located inside the Kermlin walls….and another mobile base located in Putin's butt hole.


Only then will we finally be safe

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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trey3216 said:

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They are always ready to fight to the last dead Ukrainian.

All the while telling us victory against Putler is just another $100 billion in US taxpayer cash away from happening.

---

For someone who speaks out so often against meddling, you sure have no problem speaking for the Ukrainian people. As has been the case in most countries throughout history, Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to defend their country. Most are willing to risk their lives.

.

---

Tens of thousands of eastern Ukrainians have been fighting since 2014 to get independence from the U.S. backed government in Kyiv.

And let's not forget the many thousands and thousands fleeing out of the country to avoid fighting in this proxy war.

The Ukrainian people are not of a single mind on this war… you sure as hell don't know what they all think.

You wanna get your balls blown off fighting the big bad russkies then get on a plane buddy and head over.

Zelensky would be happy to have another pawn.

---

and many of those "tens of thousands" were ordered to fight against Ukraine at the barrel of a Russian rifle. Let's not forget the 3mm+ St. Pete and Muscovite men that fled their country so they don't get marched to slaughter in Andiivka and Bakhmut at the orders of their General Major Lieutenant Sergeant

---

Sure, both sides are forcing men to fight who don't want to.

DC and Moscow don't care about their proxy forces. And there are lots of people on both sides who don't want to fight this conflict.

---

The only people forcing Ukrainians to fight are Russians. Not proxies, but actual Russian military regulars.

But I thought you said DC cared too much? Which is it? They don't care so they let them get slaughtered, or they care too much about them and not the American people that they waste Billions of our tax dollars on Ukrainians?

---

You think DC is not getting a huge cut from that money being spent?

You don't think DC is making money by insider trading on defense stocks?


They obviously don't care about dead Ukrainians anymore than they care about dead Iraqis, afghans, or Syrians


Heck they don't even really care about Americans

---

it's not really insider trading when they're literally at war, and when we knew they were going to be at war,

---

Again they…not us


When the heck did Ukraine become a part of the USA or even an enrolled rally of the USA?

You and the rest of the boomers on here act like we are obligated to spend billions on this corrupt falling apart Eastern European State that apparently can't remain on good terms with its larger neighbor.

A corrupt state than could not even beat some separatists in the Donbas.

But yes I agree that DC insides saw the conflict coming, rooted it on, and have profited obscenely on the bloodshed since.

---

boomer?!! lol, I'm like 5 years older than you

---

the genetic fallacy is part of his DNA.

All he can do is whine that Russia is no threat to us, as if the Cold War never happened. As if the last 20 years of Russian aggression never happened..

---

Yea I forgot now Russia has been moving its military alliance closer to our borders and building up bases right on our door step over the last 20 years




In reality is the geopolitical situation is more like:

---

Thank you RedbrickRussianbear, but you forget that the current landscape vis-a-vis Russia is due the Soviet Union callapse under Western policy. The landscape that Putin wants to return to is much different, and far more harsh and repressive on the territories Putin wants to reclaim.

---

NATO and its 31 nations and its 950 million citizens (including some of the richest most economically powerful nations on earth- USA, UK, France, Germany) will never be safe until we get a US military base located inside the Kermlin walls….and another mobile base located in Putin's butt hole.


Only then will we finally be safe

---

Maybe then the Russians will quit attempting to take over every neighbor they have (other than China) and quit their imperialistic fantasies.

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

Imagine if that kind of scummy stuff happened in the USA….

Thank god our repubic does not have problems with an entrenched corrupt ruling regime persecuting political opponents

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

And I know it really rubs you the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

From the start Macgregor and others have emphasized "Christian Russia" as one of their main talking points in opposing Ukraine.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

And I know it really rubs you the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

From the start Macgregor and others have emphasized "Christian Russia" as one of their main talking points in opposing Ukraine.

---

Gotcha,


Did they mean "orthodox" as in a cultural designation?

Samuel Huntington used it in that way…while also acknowledging the country was not very religious in any significant way.

He flat said one of the main reasons folks oppose Russia and support Ukraine is Russia's and the Russian government's "strong devotion to Orthodox Christianity." Then again, he also said Ukraine has lost 10 times more men than Russia has.

sombear said:

---

He flat said one of the main reasons folks oppose Russia and support Ukraine is Russia's and the Russian government's "strong devotion to Orthodox Christianity." Then again, he also said Ukraine has lost 10 times more men than Russia has.

---

Interesting.

Certainly not a good analysis on his part.

The government is Moscow is not a theocracy and Russia itself is no more religious than modern Sweden.

I could see Russian trying to gain support among cultural orthodox populations but Romania, Greece, and Bulgaria are already part of NATO.

And they are now on bad terms with Ukraine.

And Serbia is rabidly moving town integration with the EU (if not one day NATO)

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

Checking in on the state of Western democracy…where they kind of anti-democratic action would never take place

The interior minister of the German state of Thuringia wants to make it constitutionally impossible for the AfD to take power in Thuringia on the grounds that they threaten democracy.

But he's fine governing with Die Linke, the successor party to the East German dictatorship. https://t.co/ryfm4g9aVG

— Aodán Hill ☃️🎄🎁🎅 (@aodanhill) December 28, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

He flat said one of the main reasons folks oppose Russia and support Ukraine is Russia's and the Russian government's "strong devotion to Orthodox Christianity." Then again, he also said Ukraine has lost 10 times more men than Russia has.

---

Interesting.

Certainly not a good analysis on his part.

The government is Moscow is not a theocracy and Russia itself is no more religious than modern Sweden.

I could see Russian trying to gain support among cultural orthodox populations but Romania, Greece, and Bulgaria are already part of NATO.

And they are now on bad terms with Ukraine.

And Serbia is rabidly moving town integration with the EU (if not one day NATO)

---

Now there's some Christian spirit … Seals and Christ, the perfect combo!

Source- https://t.co/Gjlt5FcZuT

Translation: pic.twitter.com/GAF6OOAjwX

— OSINTtechnical (@Osinttechnical) December 28, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

---

Oh yes a very traditional view…that the voters have no right to determine if marriage is between and man and a woman.

How many southern Baptists do you think believed that in our history?

How many do you think believe that now in the year 2023?

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

Checking in again on the state of democracy in the modern USA

NEW:

Vladimir Egorov, a Russian lawmaker from Putin's party, was found dead after falling from the third floor of his home, Russian state media has reported.

It seems that Russia has a serious window problem. pic.twitter.com/eElH9merZx

— Republicans against Trump (@RpsAgainstTrump) December 29, 2023

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

---

You don't seem to think it's the job of the government to enforce a decent moral society/family formation here at home or defend the borders from a mass invasion of 3rd worlders

But you do think it's the job of government to fight proxy wars against Russia on the other side of the planet.

Honestly Trey, super interesting idea of government you have.

Do you think the Founding Fathers would agree?

Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

---

Oh yes a very traditional view…that the voters have no right to determine if marriage is between and man and a woman.

How many southern Baptists do you think believed that in our history?

How many do you think believe that now in the year 2023?

---

I didn't say I agree with it, but I damn sure don't believe marriage by biblical terms should be written in a law book anywhere. I don't have to agree with something to wish for and believe in a less intrusive government. I don't want a theocracy in the US, nor do I want autocracy.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

---

Oh yes a very traditional view…that the voters have no right to determine if marriage is between and man and a woman.

How many southern Baptists do you think believed that in our history?

How many do you think believe that now in the year 2023?

---

I didn't say I agree with it, but I damn sure don't believe marriage by biblical terms should be written in a law book anywhere. I don't have to agree with something to wish for and believe in a less intrusive government. I don't want a theocracy in the US, nor do I want autocracy.

---

Forcing States, public schools, private businesses, and individuals to accept a new and completely different interpretation of marriage and human sexuality is just as intrusive (if not far more so) than keeping the old legal framework.

Can you not see that?


You are very dismissive of the culture war being waged at home by our own government and institutions against regular Americans.

All while you get very hyped up about the Feds needing to wage a war against Russia abroad.

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

---

Oh yes a very traditional view…that the voters have no right to determine if marriage is between and man and a woman.

How many southern Baptists do you think believed that in our history?

How many do you think believe that now in the year 2023?

---

I didn't say I agree with it, but I damn sure don't believe marriage by biblical terms should be written in a law book anywhere. I don't have to agree with something to wish for and believe in a less intrusive government. I don't want a theocracy in the US, nor do I want autocracy.

---

Forcing States, public schools, private businesses, and individuals to accept a new and completely different interpretation of marriage and human sexuality is just as intrusive (if not far more so) than keeping the old legal framework.

Can you not see that?


You are very dismissive of the culture war being waged at home by our own government and institutions against regular Americans.

All while you get very hyped up about the Feds needing to wage a war against Russia abroad.

---

dude, and you seem to miss that I'm also not for the govt enforcing it the other way either. Like I said, the govt shouldn't be legislating it, period. So stop with with you damned inference tangents. You react like a damn child

trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Good, Christian Russia fighting against the fascists and election preventers in Ukraine….

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-russian-court-backs-move-bar-anti-war-politician-running-against-putin-2023-12-27/#:~:text=MOSCOW%2C%20Dec%2027%20(Reuters),be%20candidate%2C%20said%20on%20Wednesday.

---

I know it really rubs some people the wrong way that modern Russia bans LGBTQ stuff in the schools, public media, and does not let them pretend marry…

But no one has ever said Russia was very Christian or was ever particularly religious.

[only 5.4% of Orthodox Russians claim to attend church services weekly]

[the survey found that 66,840,000 persons, or 47.4% of the total population, were Christians. Among them, 58,800,000 or 41.1% of the population were believers in the Russian Orthodox Church, 5,900,000 or 4.1% were Christians without any denomination]

Not even 50% of populace claims to be Christian.

Not sure why you like to tilt at that particular windmill.

It's basically Western Europe in its religious belief levels…just not into sexual degenerate LGBTQ+ stuff.

---

some of us, even southern Baptist Christians, respect the functionality and intent of the Constitution in that the government shouldn't be legislating things of that nature, in any form or fashion.

---

Oh yes a very traditional view…that the voters have no right to determine if marriage is between and man and a woman.

How many southern Baptists do you think believed that in our history?

How many do you think believe that now in the year 2023?

---

I didn't say I agree with it, but I damn sure don't believe marriage by biblical terms should be written in a law book anywhere. I don't have to agree with something to wish for and believe in a less intrusive government. I don't want a theocracy in the US, nor do I want autocracy.

---

Forcing States, public schools, private businesses, and individuals to accept a new and completely different interpretation of marriage and human sexuality is just as intrusive (if not far more so) than keeping the old legal framework.

Can you not see that?


You are very dismissive of the culture war being waged at home by our own government and institutions against regular Americans.

All while you get very hyped up about the Feds needing to wage a war against Russia abroad.

---

dude, and you seem to miss that I'm also not for the govt enforcing it the other way either. Like I said, the govt shouldn't be legislating it, period.

---

But it is and it will enforce a moral code.

Again you don't get very worked up about an increasingly evil and tyrannical regime here at home that actively works against the American people.

But only by an evil one across the ocean in Moscow.

I'm not sure where the hell your priorities are…

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

EVERY STATE has a right to think the way you are allowing Russia to think. EVERY state boundering Russia has the right to decide if it want to be in the Russian orbit, neutral, or in the orbit of others. And, instructively, every state boundering Western Russia, save one, wants to be in the Nato orbit. What does that tell you? Are you going to insist that America is hornswoggling all of them to join Nato? Such is nonsense. Democracies in Europe want nothing to do with an autocratic Russia domineering. They are allying with one another for a reason. And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is an current threat. Destroying the Russian army in Ukraine is eminently wise, as it will add a decade or more to the timeline when Russia can rebuild and start grinding on Nato directly.

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. We can fix the border almost overnight. We can deport migrants in a short number of years. And we can do all of that without any existential risk. The same cannot be said for military conflict with Russia, which is going to happen whether you like it or not. The only question is "where will it happen." It SHOULD happen Russia's border with Ukraine, not Ukraine's border with Poland. Geographical distance is a pretty big deal in military operations, something you apparently were not previously aware of.

And no, your map of North America is comical propaganda. Nato does not have armies swarming around all four sides of the Russian border. Just one. And there have always been (modern age) Nato armies on that 1 border. The only thing that has changed is where that border is. Yes, it has moved eastwards, as it should have. Who in their right mind would think geo-political stasis is Russian hegemony in Western Europe along a line that runs the Berlin, Germany? I mean, nothing shows the cartoon-caricature nature of your worldview than that one.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

---

I think this is a weak argument, but if we take it at face value, then the opposite argument also applies. That is, if Putin already knows it is futile to take on any NATO country, then why would he care that NATO is expanding?

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

---

I think this is a weak argument, but if we take it at face value, then the opposite argument also applies. That is, if Putin already knows it is futile to take on any NATO country, then why would he care that NATO is expanding?

---

Probably because Russia has been invaded multiple times in history (Mongols, French, Germans, etc) and they are very sensitive to hostile military alliances on their borders within easy striking range of their major cities and population centers.

Pretty obvious that they don't want to see Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, or Kazakhstan in NATO

They would be completely surrounded by enemies

If the old Warsaw pact was still around and expanding close to the USA borders you would be freaking out about it (and rightfully so)

If countries were basing their policy on what transpired centuries ago, we'd all be screwed.

I understand what you're saying, but, again, he's already within striking distance and knows he can't take on NATO at all.

And, if he's concerned about neighbors joining, it's only because he wants to take them over as he already has proven.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

---

I think this is a weak argument, but if we take it at face value, then the opposite argument also applies. That is, if Putin already knows it is futile to take on any NATO country, then why would he care that NATO is expanding?

---

Probably because Russia has been invaded multiple times in history (Mongols, French, Germans, etc) and they are very sensitive to hostile military alliances on their borders within easy striking range of their major cities and population centers.

Pretty obvious that they don't want to see Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, or Kazakhstan in NATO

They would be completely surrounded by enemies

If the old Warsaw pact was still around and expanding close to the USA borders you would be freaking out about it (and rightfully so)

---

the link atlasexplains.com is down (perhaps telling....)

the map is not terribly instructive. None of those WP nations today bear a common border with Russia (excepting for the Kalningrad exclave which should not exist). Their membership in NATO pose, by the logic of your own argument, no threat to Russia whatsoever (given that proximity of armies to things is immaterial).

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

---

if you had no strawman, you'd have no argument at all.

Russia does not have to invade a Nato nation to destablize it. Slovakia already has a pro-Russian PM (head of a small party leading a coalition govt.

---

Oh gotta democracy is destabilizing huh?


You really do sound like you work for some DC neo-con
/liberal interventionist outfit.

Democracy is bad in other countries when it comes to conclusions DC does not like

If the Slovaks want to be on good terms with Russia it's not actually "destabilizing" anymore than if a party gets elected that follows an opposite policy


Your arguments basically boils down to "Russia exists so it's a threat"

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

---

if you had no strawman, you'd have no argument at all.

Russia does not have to invade a Nato nation to destablize it. Slovakia already has a pro-Russian PM (head of a small party leading a coalition govt.

---

Oh gotta democracy is destabilizing huh?


You really do sound like you work for some DC neo-con
/liberal interventionist outfit.

Democracy is bad in other countries when it comes to conclusions DC does not like

If the Slovaks want to be a good terms with Russia it's not actually "destabilizing" anymore than if a party gets elected that follows an opposite policy


Your arguments basically boils down to "Russia exists so it's a threat"

---

again, you revert to genetic fallacy rather than deal with facts and geo-political realities.

And those facts are = Nato exists. Voluntarily. Not one nation was forced to join. Not one nation has even been forced to make their pledged annual contribution. But all member nations, including the USA, have agreed to common defense, to include nuclear exchange, should the alliance be attacked. So rising threats to the Nato alliance are relevant. (a point you studiously avoid).

It is true that invasion of Nato by Russia appears neither likely nor imminent at this time, given the limits of Russian abilities on their best day, degraded over time by years of war. But Russia has miscalculated in Ukraine. Badly. How can we blithely assume they would not do so at some point in the future re Nato? (we can't.)

And invasion is not the only threat. I've laid it out many, many times for you. The pendulum swings in democracy. Political coalitions rise and fall. Right now, pro-EU forces are ascendant all across Europe. At some point, forces more favorable to Russia will win an election. The template is partially formed in Slovakia, although barely so (but it does show I'm not contriving unrealities). The proximity of Russian armies to those dynamics is a VERY material factor (yet another one you ignore). Nothing would strengthen pro-Russian dynamics in a European democracy more than a Russian army just across the border. Such would cause pro-EU forces to equivocate, to hedge bets. And it would cause pro-Russia forces to be more confident, aggressive. The scales of influence over time would time more toward Russia...... Just basic geopolitics 101. Gunboat diplomacy has a wiki page, ya know.....

How does Russian victory in Ukraine benefit the USA?
How does Russian victory in Ukraine lead to more rather than less stability?
(i could go on for a while with pertinent questions like that. and the answer for all of them is "it doesn't.")

You have no geopolitical policy at all except to do nothing, particularly where Russia is concerned. yours is the worldview that disengages to let forces find their own equilibrium, sleeps like a baby for a decade or so, then wakes up one morning to news videos of an general in an Eastern Europe Nato member announcing (while flanked by known, plain-clothed Russian military advisors) that he is now the head of state, after weeks of tumultuous and ultimately unsuccessful efforts by various parties to put together a shaky ruling coalition. ("shaky coalitions" are a problem - if do you not think domestic politics in Israel affected the timing of the Hamas decision to launch an attack, you are not thinking clearly). you look down at your desk and see frantic traffic from Foggy Bottom saying that other Nato states area all reporting that their liaison officers in that country have been restricted to house arrest, pending investigations of corruption. And now, your fear is.....will those Russian armies in Ukraine (or Belarus) be invited across the border to help stabilize the new government? And at that moment we will not be able to drive a sixteen-penny nail up your ass with a sledgehammer.

Dude, that is exactly how the next world war is GOING to start. Only questions are when, and WHERE. At this moment in time, we have a lot more influence right now over "where" than we do "when." That question is being argued as we speak on the Black Sea coast east of the Dnieper River. Our policy should be to keep those Russian armies in Russia, and if they step across borders, support anyone who will oppose them. IT is a very limited and cheap policy, even if lightweights refuse to understand it.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

---

You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

---

you give us a freaking break with the freaking false dilemmas. If we shut down the Ukraine show tomorrow, it will have no impact on the border whatsoever.

We have to engage and win on BOTH problems.

---

One of those issues is a possible existential problem for the USA and its future survival as a nation-state.

At best it will determine if the USA will be ruled by a political coalition of progressive coastal liberals and destitute 3rd worlders for the foreseeable future.

The other is a rusting out ex-Soviet state that has never been an ally of ours or in our sphere of influence.

It's not a problem for Americans at all really.

---

again, you are just defining away Russia as a non-threat, instead of looking at current realities, history, geo-politics, etc.....

And Russian actions in Ukraine was the galvanizing force. Nato is supporting Ukraine, too, as well as starting to rebuild their armies....because they see exactly what you ignore = Russian expansionism is a current threat…

And yes, Russian expansionism against Nato is every bit as great a threat as what is happening on the Southern border. .

---

Is Russia so weak that it can be defeated by Ukraine or is it so strong it could start and win a direct confrontation with NATO? It can’t be both at once. https://t.co/8JXGZSVVIT

— James Kirkpatrick (@VDAREJamesK) December 30, 2023

---

if you had no strawman, you'd have no argument at all.

Russia does not have to invade a Nato nation to destablize it. Slovakia already has a pro-Russian PM (head of a small party leading a coalition govt.

---

Oh gotta democracy is destabilizing huh?


You really do sound like you work for some DC neo-con
/liberal interventionist outfit.

Democracy is bad in other countries when it comes to conclusions DC does not like

If the Slovaks want to be a good terms with Russia it's not actually "destabilizing" anymore than if a party gets elected that follows an opposite policy


Your arguments basically boils down to "Russia exists so it's a threat"

---

again, you revert to genetic fallacy rather than deal with facts and geo-political realities.

And those facts are = Nato exists. Voluntarily. Not one nation was forced to join. Not one nation has even been forced to make their pledged annual contribution. But all member nations, including the USA, have agreed to common defense, to include nuclear exchange, should the alliance be attacked. So rising threats to the Nato alliance are relevant. (a point you studiously avoid).

It is true that invasion of Nato by Russia appears neither likely nor imminent at this time, given the limits of Russian abilities on their best day, degraded over time by years of war. But Russia has miscalculated in Ukraine. Badly. How can we blithely assume they would not do so at some point in the future re Nato? (we can't.)

And invasion is not the only threat. I've laid it out many, many times for you. The pendulum swings in democracy. Political coalitions rise and fall. Right now, pro-EU forces are ascendant all across Europe. At some point, forces more favorable to Russia will win an election. The template is partially formed in Slovakia, although barely so (but it does show I'm not contriving unrealities). The proximity of Russian armies to those dynamics is a VERY material factor (yet another one you ignore). Nothing would strengthen pro-Russian dynamics in a European democracy more than a Russian army just across the border. Such would cause pro-EU forces to equivocate, to hedge bets. And it would cause pro-Russia forces to be more confident, aggressive. The scales of influence over time would time more toward Russia...... Just basic geopolitics 101. Gunboat diplomacy has a wiki page, ya know.....

How does Russian victory in Ukraine benefit the USA?
How does Russian victory in Ukraine lead to more rather than less stability?
(i could go on for a while with pertinent questions like that. and the answer for all of them is "it doesn't.")

You have no geopolitical policy at all except to do nothing, particularly where Russia is concerned. yours is the worldview that disengages to let forces find their own equilibrium, sleeps like a baby for a decade or so, then wakes up one morning to news videos of an general in an Eastern Europe Nato member announcing (while flanked by known, plain-clothed Russian military advisors) that he is now the head of state, after weeks of tumultuous and ultimately unsuccessful efforts by various parties to put together a shaky ruling coalition. ("shaky coalitions" are a problem - if do you not think domestic politics in Israel affected the timing of the Hamas decision to launch an attack, you are not thinking clearly). you look down at your desk and see frantic traffic from Foggy Bottom saying that other Nato states area all reporting that their liaison officers in that country have been restricted to house arrest, pending investigations of corruption. And now, your fear is.....will those Russian armies in Ukraine (or Belarus) be invited across the border to help stabilize the new government? And at that moment we will not be able to drive a sixteen-penny nail up your ass with a sledgehammer.

Dude, that is exactly how the next world war is GOING to start. Only questions are when, and WHERE. At this moment in time, we have a lot more influence right now over "where" than we do "when." That question is being argued as we speak on the Black Sea coast east of the Dnieper River. Our policy should be to keep those Russian armies in Russia, and if they step across borders, support anyone who will oppose them. IT is a very limited and cheap policy, even if lightweights refuse to understand it.

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Speaking of straw men. Acknowledging a Russian sphere of influence is not "disengagement." It was an integral part of our policy until the unprecedented overreach of the last couple of decades.

TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

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I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

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You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

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Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

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Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

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And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

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adding a "no true Scotsman" fallacy weakens an already threadbare position.

Deal with the facts on the ground. How does letting Russia subsume 40m people and 233k square miles of resource rich territory into its polity have "no impact" on the adjacent alliance to which we have sworn to defend with nuclear exchange if necessary? How does moving Russian strategic and conventional weapons systems 600mi closer to Nato capitals (and US military bases) make the American people safer? How will such reduce the need for additional military spending?

Fact is, you have no policy. You are preemptorily defining away every extant problem with a waive of a hand...."it doesn't matter....we are wasting money to enrich the political caste...." Hint: your policy will guarantee vastly expanded risks and military expenditure, along with even greater feeding at the trough of expanded budgets. And you will lambaste it all as latent imperium, just like you are now, the only difference being that your kids and grandkids will be conducting new-era Reforger exercises in Romania and Poland to deter Russian armies in Ukraine.

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Those are just a few of the questions we should have asked before starting an unwinnable proxy war against Russia. Too late now.

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Excuse my interuption, but we didn't "start an unwinnable proxy war against Russia." An ambitious Putin started it. I think there is plenty of fault on Biden's part in how this has been conducted, but this war is very winnable. Putin is mired down and has failed in his primary objective due to our timid and measured support for Ukraine - all for a nominal amount of cost in terms of GDP. If we gave them the weapons they needed and on time, Ukraine would be in a much better position than now, and Russia might even have been driven out of Ukraine, given the state of their military at the time. That's Biden's fault.

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I've heard this kind of stuff my entire life. All that ever changes is the list of "evil" countries that refuse to do our bidding. America must constantly be at war...otherwise we'd be at war constantly.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

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You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

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And back to Nuland the Conqueror. Excellent pivot!

. . .

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I have noticed you are incapable of admitting that DC was involved in anyway with regime change in Kyiv.

Anyway how is the war you wanted so badly going for Ukraine?

Looks like the DC backed faction of oligarchs in Kyiv is having to call up 55 year olds and people in bad heath conditions to keep this war going.

(Not to mention arresting at gun point any Ukrainian man that tries to flee)

How much longer until you think DC will let them negotiate an end to this war?

That spring offense you were counting on ended like a wet fart.

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Go back and read my posts - then again, I'm not sure you read all of your own. You're dead wrong on both accounts.

I never jumped on the spring offensive bandwagon. That is because the sources I trust most - corp intel - thought Russia had too much time to prepare, and we and the Euros delayed sending equipment. I posted this intel several times. I've also said the pro-Putins have exaggerated the failure, as it's basically a standstill but with Russia losing considerably more soldiers and equipmwnt.

As for 2014, I've posted several times that we (and many others) tried to influence and that we expressed support for the pro-Euro/America crowd. What I have categorically rejected - b/c it's downright absurd - is that we led a coup. Not even Russia believes that. Russia created its own mess. It thought it could get away with making VV do a complete 180 and jump in bed with Russia. It was an historically bad bet, as Ukrainian voters had just overwhelmingly voted for closer Euro/U.S. relations.

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It's no more absurd than the idea that we were passive observers. Even if all we did was cheerlead for a violent coup, that would be bad enough. In fact we've supported far right extremist groups for years. They owe their existence in large part to us, and they're the ones who opposed the will of the Ukrainian people as expressed in the Minsk Agreements.

Russian forces are hardly at a standstill. They've been observing the principle that when your enemy is making a mistake, you don't interrupt him. This has been painfully clear since the beginning of the counter-offensive if not well before.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Bizarre response. You are the one disregarding the strong majority of Ukrainians. Obviously nobody can speak for every Ukrainian. Brutal straw man there. Strange that it bothers you so much that they want to fight for their country.

I'd like to think I'd fight to defend my country. Would you?

And what do dodgers have to do with anything. That's the case in all wars. It's as old as time.

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You are shilling for a war in Eastern Europe when your own country is being invaded right now.

200,000 illegal invaders over the borders monthly.

A war our own intelligence agencies in large part helped to start by overthrowing the last government in Kyiv and helping to scuttle any peace deals since.

lol give me a freaking break

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And back to Nuland the Conqueror. Excellent pivot!

. . .

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I have noticed you are incapable of admitting that DC was involved in anyway with regime change in Kyiv.

Anyway how is the war you wanted so badly going for Ukraine?

Looks like the DC backed faction of oligarchs in Kyiv is having to call up 55 year olds and people in bad heath conditions to keep this war going.

(Not to mention arresting at gun point any Ukrainian man that tries to flee)

How much longer until you think DC will let them negotiate an end to this war?

That spring offense you were counting on ended like a wet fart.

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Go back and read my posts - then again, I'm not sure you read all of your own. You're dead wrong on both accounts.

I never jumped on the spring offensive bandwagon. That is because the sources I trust most - corp intel - thought Russia had too much time to prepare, and we and the Euros delayed sending equipment. I posted this intel several times. I've also said the pro-Putins have exaggerated the failure, as it's basically a standstill but with Russia losing considerably more soldiers and equipmwnt.

As for 2014, I've posted several times that we (and many others) tried to influence and that we expressed support for the pro-Euro/America crowd. What I have categorically rejected - b/c it's downright absurd - is that we led a coup. Not even Russia believes that. Russia created its own mess. It thought it could get away with making VV do a complete 180 and jump in bed with Russia. It was an historically bad bet, as Ukrainian voters had just overwhelmingly voted for closer Euro/U.S. relations.

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It's no more absurd than the idea that we were passive observers. Even if all we did was cheerlead for a violent coup, that would be bad enough. In fact we've supported far right extremist groups for years. They owe their existence in large part to us, and they're the ones who opposed the will of the Ukrainian people as expressed in the Minsk Agreements.

Russian forces are hardly at a standstill. They've been observing the principle that when your enemy is making a mistake, you don't interrupt him. This has been painfully clear since the beginning of the counter-offensive if not well before.

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The only thing absurd is your constant shilling of RU propaganda.