Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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BREAKING: Ukraine's Black Sea city of Odesa has reopened some of its beaches for the first time since Russia's invasion, please keep the people of Ukraine in your prayers. pic.twitter.com/HINhjALLct

— I Meme Therefore I Am 🇺🇸 (@ImMeme0) August 12, 2023

---

Progress in the war allows a city to reopen beaches and this is a bad thing?

---

Western media: this is a war for the existential survival of Ukraine and the safety of "muh democracy" in the whole world!

Ukrainian upper class : hold my Gucci purse while I club in Kyiv and hit the beach resorts!

---

So you would keep the beaches closed until the war is over.

Tell me, where were you on keeping restaurants closed until Covid was over?

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Jacques Strap said:

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Is this the greatest 10 seconds in CNN history? pic.twitter.com/ohbKxDs47K

— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) August 11, 2023

CNN responds... the focus group is at fault for not watching enough CNN. These poor focus group folks are about to get introduced to cancellation tactics from the "I know better than you" crowd on social media.

---

CNN did an outstanding job of selecting a focus group that is not at all representative of the GOP at large on the Ukraine question.

---

CNN - Most Americans oppose Congress authorizing additional funding to support Ukraine in its war with Russia, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS, as the public splits over whether the US has already done enough to assist Ukraine.

Republicans broadly say that Congress should not authorize new funding (71%) and that the US has done enough to assist Ukraine (59%). Among Democrats, most say the opposite, 62% favor additional funding and 61% say that the US should do more.

Within both parties, there are splits by ideology. On providing additional funding, liberal Democrats are far and away the most supportive, 74% back it compared with 51% of moderate or conservative Democrats. Among Republicans, about three-quarters of conservatives oppose new funding (76%) compared with 61% of moderate or liberal Republicans.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.html

---

Nice job of cherry picking. How many links would you like to see showing that the sample selected in that interview is wildly out of whack with actual GOP support for the war?

---

How many of them are this recent? We all heard the hype back in June, but you can't fool people forever.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Jacques Strap said:

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Is this the greatest 10 seconds in CNN history? pic.twitter.com/ohbKxDs47K

— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) August 11, 2023

CNN responds... the focus group is at fault for not watching enough CNN. These poor focus group folks are about to get introduced to cancellation tactics from the "I know better than you" crowd on social media.

---

CNN did an outstanding job of selecting a focus group that is not at all representative of the GOP at large on the Ukraine question.

---

CNN - Most Americans oppose Congress authorizing additional funding to support Ukraine in its war with Russia, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS, as the public splits over whether the US has already done enough to assist Ukraine.

Republicans broadly say that Congress should not authorize new funding (71%) and that the US has done enough to assist Ukraine (59%). Among Democrats, most say the opposite, 62% favor additional funding and 61% say that the US should do more.

Within both parties, there are splits by ideology. On providing additional funding, liberal Democrats are far and away the most supportive, 74% back it compared with 51% of moderate or conservative Democrats. Among Republicans, about three-quarters of conservatives oppose new funding (76%) compared with 61% of moderate or liberal Republicans.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.html

---

Nice job of cherry picking. How many links would you like to see showing that the sample selected in that interview is wildly out of whack with actual GOP support for the war?

---

How many of them are this recent? We all heard the hype back in June, but you can't fool people forever.

---

All of them. You've picked the outlier….

Even the Russian spin machine can't hide what's happening.

https://x.com/thestudyofwar/status/1690853235312009216?s=46&t=ppMxCuHFBiF2n-S1riETzw

ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area. Seems Uke found an area without good Russian arty or armor support and used HIMARS to neutralize what little was there. So the KL fight is almost solely small unit infantry. Russian cannot expel the "bridgehead" (or foothold).

If Uke gets a pontoon bridge built, the pace of the Uke advance will accelerate, as Russian does not have reserves to plug the hole.

https://x.com/thestudyofwar/status/1690486608191983616?s=46&t=ppMxCuHFBiF2n-S1riETzw

whiterock said:

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ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri developments are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area. Seems Uke found an area without good Russian arty or armor support and used HIMARS to neutralize what little was there. So the KL fight is almost solely small unit infantry. Russian cannot expel the "bridgehead" (or foothold).

If Uke gets a pontoon bridge built, the pace of the Uke advance will accelerate, as Russian does not have reserves to plug the hole.

https://x.com/thestudyofwar/status/1690486608191983616?s=46&t=ppMxCuHFBiF2n-S1riETzw

---

50 yrs old. Looking for a job as a driver. signed a contract. Got 5 days of training, mostly with blanks.

https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1690646919402356736?s=46&t=ppMxCuHFBiF2n-S1riETzw

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

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Jacques Strap said:

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Is this the greatest 10 seconds in CNN history? pic.twitter.com/ohbKxDs47K

— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) August 11, 2023

CNN responds... the focus group is at fault for not watching enough CNN. These poor focus group folks are about to get introduced to cancellation tactics from the "I know better than you" crowd on social media.

---

CNN did an outstanding job of selecting a focus group that is not at all representative of the GOP at large on the Ukraine question.

---

CNN - Most Americans oppose Congress authorizing additional funding to support Ukraine in its war with Russia, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS, as the public splits over whether the US has already done enough to assist Ukraine.

Republicans broadly say that Congress should not authorize new funding (71%) and that the US has done enough to assist Ukraine (59%). Among Democrats, most say the opposite, 62% favor additional funding and 61% say that the US should do more.

Within both parties, there are splits by ideology. On providing additional funding, liberal Democrats are far and away the most supportive, 74% back it compared with 51% of moderate or conservative Democrats. Among Republicans, about three-quarters of conservatives oppose new funding (76%) compared with 61% of moderate or liberal Republicans.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.html

---

Nice job of cherry picking. How many links would you like to see showing that the sample selected in that interview is wildly out of whack with actual GOP support for the war?

---

How many of them are this recent? We all heard the hype back in June, but you can't fool people forever.

---

All of them. You've picked the outlier….

---

Sounds unlikely, but let's see them.

1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

trey3216 said:

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1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

---

Vlad Vladmirovich doesn't care about anything but his ambitions. He's literally gambling the entire statehood of his country on a farcical Soviet/Russian Imperial quest.

trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

---

Vlad Vladmirovich doesn't care about anything but his ambitions. He's literally gambling the entire statehood of his country on a farcical Soviet/Russian Imperial quest.

---

He can dream of conquering the world and putting Russian colonies on Mars if he wants…it does not mean he has even a snowballs chance in Hell of doing it.

Napoleon said he could wage war in Europe because he had an excess 200,000 young French men coming of age each year in the early 1800s. A demographic surplus of soldiers….

Russia does not have the manpower to fight wars around the globe or in Central Europe/Western Europe. They barely have enough men to fight in Ukraine.

And their demographic problems are about to get even worse over the next 30 years….

Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

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1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

---

Vlad Vladmirovich doesn't care about anything but his ambitions. He's literally gambling the entire statehood of his country on a farcical Soviet/Russian Imperial quest.

---

He can dream of conquering the world and putting Russian colonies on Mars if he wants…it does not mean he has even a snowballs chance in Hell of doing it.

Napoleon said he could wage war in Europe because he had an excess 200,000 young French men coming of age each year in the early 1800s. A demographic surplus of soldiers….

Russia does not have the manpower to fight wars around the globe or in Central Europe/Western Europe. They barely have enough men to fight in Ukraine.

And their demographic problems are about to get even worse over the next 30 years….

---

The piece people forget is when you are 11 time zones big, you have a lot of border to defend. That requires manpower. If he focuses too much on Europe, the Stans, Georgia, Chechnya, China all start thinking...

Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

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1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

---

Vlad Vladmirovich doesn't care about anything but his ambitions. He's literally gambling the entire statehood of his country on a farcical Soviet/Russian Imperial quest.

---

He can dream of conquering the world and putting Russian colonies on Mars if he wants…it does not mean he has even a snowballs chance in Hell of doing it.

Napoleon said he could wage war in Europe because he had an excess 200,000 young French men coming of age each year in the early 1800s. A demographic surplus of soldiers….

Russia does not have the manpower to fight wars around the globe or in Central Europe/Western Europe. They barely have enough men to fight in Ukraine.

And their demographic problems are about to get even worse over the next 30 years….

---

thats the problem. He's dreaming , and acting on it.

trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

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1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

---

Vlad Vladmirovich doesn't care about anything but his ambitions. He's literally gambling the entire statehood of his country on a farcical Soviet/Russian Imperial quest.

---

He can dream of conquering the world and putting Russian colonies on Mars if he wants…it does not mean he has even a snowballs chance in Hell of doing it.

Napoleon said he could wage war in Europe because he had an excess 200,000 young French men coming of age each year in the early 1800s. A demographic surplus of soldiers….

Russia does not have the manpower to fight wars around the globe or in Central Europe/Western Europe. They barely have enough men to fight in Ukraine.

And their demographic problems are about to get even worse over the next 30 years….

---

thats the problem. He's dreaming , and acting on it.

---

I am not sure he has the capacity to act successfully. He is having a hard time taking out Ukraine, which is a 2nd rate military using piecemeal equipment. Ukraine should not be a peer adversary for Russia.

At this point, the Russian nukes are no better than Israels, Frances, and Britain's - defensive. They do not have the military capacity to go offensive beyond small actions. Nukes do not hold ground. Bombers do not hold ground. Without the Armor and IN to take and hold on multiple fronts, they are a regional power. Unless it is all a ploy...

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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BREAKING: Ukraine's Black Sea city of Odesa has reopened some of its beaches for the first time since Russia's invasion, please keep the people of Ukraine in your prayers. pic.twitter.com/HINhjALLct

— I Meme Therefore I Am 🇺🇸 (@ImMeme0) August 12, 2023

---

Progress in the war allows a city to reopen beaches and this is a bad thing?

---

Western media: this is a war for the existential survival of Ukraine and the safety of "muh democracy" in the whole world!

Ukrainian upper class : hold my Gucci purse while I club in Kyiv and hit the beach resorts!

---

So you would keep the beaches closed until the war is over.

Tell me, where were you on keeping restaurants closed until Covid was over?

---

The problem with this war is the optics.

We have record inflation in the states (over 10%). We have an open border, highest interest rates in 22 years. People are losing their jobs, their homes and they're getting desperate. We aren't governing. DC doesn't give a sh it about us.

All this is happening while we're spending hundreds of billions on this war and will likely spend trillions over the next 3 years because it's not slowing down and nobody wants peace.

You want a proxy war? Cool. Have at it.

You want a proxy war while simultaneously ****ing over the American public while spending their money they need? No, they shouldn't get their proxy war until they start putting Americans first, regardless of whatever geopolitical ramifications that causes.

Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

---

1/ A training centre in Tambov, Russia, has hung a banner showing a 'new Russian empire' comprising all of central and eastern Europe, a re-divided Germany, Finland, central Asia, Mongolia and Alaska, with the slogan "We will teach you to love the Motherland". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/YBQRi9koJ2

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) August 14, 2023

---

Always wonder where people think Russia is going to find the manpower needed to conquer anything in the future….







Not to mention that the GDP per capita of the richest region of Russia (Moscow Oblast is $22,000....the average for the country is $11,290 )....while the poorest region/State of the USA is Mississippi at $50,000

---

You are missing two pretty big points. The peoples will come from the conquered/hegemonized areas. 45m or so are at stake in Ukraine. Plus all the "new" resources pulled into the Russian orbit.

And then there's this: history is replete with examples of "poorer" cultures triumphing over wealthy civilizations….

We can meet the challenge, easily, if only we can get an understanding of what the challenge is. Too many people are working too hard not to see it.

Nato official: Ukraine could cede territory to join alliance
By James Billot
August 15, 2023

Ceding territory to Russia in exchange for Nato membership could be a solution to ending the war, the chief of staff for Nato's Secretary-General has said.

At a panel debate in Arendal, Norway on Tuesday Stian Jenssen argued that it was important to discuss Ukraine's security arrangements after the war ended. In comments reported by Norway's most read newspaper, VG, Jenssen reiterated the official Nato line that it ultimately lay with Ukraine to decide when and how it would negotiate. But his proposal for territorial secession is beyond anything that his boss, Jens Stoltenberg, has discussed publicly.

https://unherd.com/thepost/nato-official-ukraine-could-cede-territory-to-join-alliance/

whiterock said:

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ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

---

Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

---

Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

---

Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

---

Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

---

Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

---

Rybar Live: Kherson Direction - August 15, 2023 pic.twitter.com/lIgcRnphCN

— Rybar Force (@rybar_force) August 15, 2023

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

---

Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

---

Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

---

Rybar Live: Kherson Direction - August 15, 2023 pic.twitter.com/lIgcRnphCN

— Rybar Force (@rybar_force) August 15, 2023

---

LOL. The only way to credibly use Russian milblogger reporting in one's analysis is to confirm bad news for Russia. If RUS milbloggers are talking about something bad happening, it must be REALLY bad. Otherwise, it's like listening to cheerleaders for play by play reporting on the game.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

---

Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

---

Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

---

Rybar Live: Kherson Direction - August 15, 2023 pic.twitter.com/lIgcRnphCN

— Rybar Force (@rybar_force) August 15, 2023

---

LOL. The only way to credibly use Russian milblogger reporting in one's analysis is to confirm bad news for Russia. If RUS milbloggers are talking about something bad happening, it must be REALLY bad. Otherwise, it's like listening to cheerleaders for play by play reporting on the game.

---

Arguing about sources in this context is pointless for many reasons. There's no detailed, up-to-date coverage in mainstream media, so there's usually no "legitimate" standard by which to compare. We're all relying on bloggers to a great extent. Mistakes are inevitable in the fog of war. Facts change day by day and hour by hour. Even so, material contradictions between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian sources are surprisingly rare. If you were to follow multiple sources, you'd find that they're often slower to report good news for their own side in order to avoid the appearance of bias. Finally, I would point out that the ISW blog, which you cite almost exclusively, is operated by the sister-in-law of Victoria Nuland, who was largely responsible for master-minding this debacle from the beginning. If you were tasked to find a source with the greatest likelihood of bias or personal interest, you probably couldn't do any better.

FLBear5630 said:

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quash said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

What US blood? The only US people there are those that want to be there.

As for the other, yes. Ukraine is in a different geographical position, so yes it is in the US interests more than Chechnya was. Of course the US will support areas that benefit us more. Your point there???

---

"Blood and treasure" is always paired and I was speaking prospectively.

There is no direct American interest there. Not our fight.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

---

Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

---

Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

---

---

LOL. The only way to credibly use Russian milblogger reporting in one's analysis is to confirm bad news for Russia. If RUS milbloggers are talking about something bad happening, it must be REALLY bad. Otherwise, it's like listening to cheerleaders for play by play reporting on the game.

---

Arguing about sources in this context is pointless for many reasons. There's no detailed, up-to-date coverage in mainstream media, so there's usually no "legitimate" standard by which to compare. We're all relying on bloggers to a great extent. Mistakes are inevitable in the fog of war. Facts change day by day and hour by hour. Even so, material contradictions between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian sources are surprisingly rare. If you were to follow multiple sources, you'd find that they're often slower to report good news for their own side in order to avoid the appearance of bias. Finally, I would point out that the ISW blog, which you cite almost exclusively, is operated by the sister-in-law of Victoria Nuland, who was largely responsible for master-minding this debacle from the beginning. If you were tasked to find a source with the greatest likelihood of bias or personal interest, you probably couldn't do any better.

---

I'm due:

**** Victoria Nuland.

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Totally and complete westernization of the Ukrainian state

Ukrainian President Zelensky signed a law that will move the country’s Christmas Day holiday from early January to Dec. 25 — another way to “abandon the Russian heritage” and put distance between the two countries currently embroiled in war. https://t.co/QCPVMLKgkC

— The Hill (@thehill) July 30, 2023

---

Ukraine does not want to be in the Russian sphere of influence. You and others here seem to totally disregard what the Ukraine state wants and where it wants to align in favor of Russia.

Ukraine clearly wants to align with the west and the EU. Why are people supporting forcing them to stay in Russian control? This is not Georgia or Chechnya, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

---

Ukraine can have all the sovereignty it wants.

Some of us just don't want to invest US blood and treasure in that fight.

And Chechnya tried self determination, too. Just a little too Islamy to draw Western support.

---

What US blood? The only US people there are those that want to be there.

As for the other, yes. Ukraine is in a different geographical position, so yes it is in the US interests more than Chechnya was. Of course the US will support areas that benefit us more. Your point there???

---

"Blood and treasure" is always paired and I was speaking prospectively.

There is no direct American interest there. Not our fight.

---

Treasure is another matter. Hoping the investment pays off. The Germany, Japan, Korea models worked well and produced a sound investment. Iraq and Afghanistan didnt. I would rather invest more and set up a sustainable Allie than another Afghanistan

Ukraine's top Freedom Caucus ally gets cold feet

BY SARAH FERRIS, ANTHONY ADRAGNA and DANIELLA DIAZ
08/17/2023 07:34 AM EDT

ABINGDON, Md. Standing in front of a PowerPoint presentation on the national debt, Rep. Andy Harris told his constituents it's about time to wind down direct U.S. aid to Ukraine.

"Is this more a stalemate? Should we be realistic about it? I think we probably should," Harris (R-Md.) said at a Tuesday night town hall, held at a public library about 75 miles north of Washington.

He said of Ukraine's springtime offensive that was intended to turn the tide of the war: "I'll be blunt, it's failed." And he was blunt, too, about the prospects for a victory ahead: "I'm not sure it's winnable anymore."

Why he's different: Those are not unconventional views for a member of the hard-right House Freedom Caucus, of which Harris is a longtime member. But Harris is also a co-chair of the Congressional Ukraine Caucus whose Ukrainian mother fled communist Eastern Europe after World War II.

He remained steadfast in his support for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy through the early months of the war and voted for Congress's big standalone Ukraine aid package last year, backing both military aid and humanitarian aid for the tiny nation in its Goliath-sized fight against Russia.

Harris is also a senior member of the House Appropriations Committee, giving him an outsize voice in his party's spending priorities.

Asked in an interview after the town hall whether he'd support another tranche of aid, he sharply hedged: "If there is humanitarian monies, nonmilitary monies, or military monies without an inspector general, I'm not supporting it."

A conservative's qualms: Harris's new tone on Ukraine aid is one more sign of the GOP's shifting ground on the issue. And it's a preview of just how much of a headache the issue will be for Speaker Kevin McCarthy when lawmakers return from recess next month. President Joe Biden is seeking $24 billion more in emergency funds for Ukraine this fall -- a request that will need to go through GOP conservatives whose positions on the aid sound a lot like Harris's.

Among the many concerns Harris laid out: The prospect of fraud or waste. Rising U.S. food prices. The possibility of starting "World War III" by bringing Ukraine into NATO. But most of all the cost.

"I'm sorry, we don't have that kind of money," Harris said, pointing to the trillion-dollar U.S. deficits in the post-Covid years.

And now, he has joined the chorus of GOP hardliners on Capitol Hill who are pushing for a negotiated end to the war.

"I think the time has come to realistically call for peace talks. I know President Zelenskyy doesn't want it," Harris told his town hall crowd. "But President Zelenskyy, without our help, he would abjectly lose the war. And with our help, he's not winning. It's a stalemate now."

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/huddle/2023/08/17/ukraines-top-freedom-caucus-ally-gets-cold-feet-00111608

Hasn't the last month revealed we're in Ukraine because the oligarchs bribed the Biden Crime Family?

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Hasn't the last month revealed we're in Ukraine because the oligarchs bribed the Biden Crime Family?

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We are in Ukraine?

ron.reagan said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Hasn't the last month revealed we're in Ukraine because the oligarchs bribed the Biden Crime Family?

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We are in Ukraine?

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Yes dumbass.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Hasn't the last month revealed we're in Ukraine because the oligarchs bribed the Biden Crime Family?

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We are in Ukraine?

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Yes dumbass.

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Do you know what units are there? Or is this top secret information?

sombear said:

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While I disagree, I respect those that oppose supporting Ukraine on economic and non-intervention grounds. But, I laugh at Republican politicians focusing on the spending issue, when they have done nothing to restrain spending (let alone cut budgets or debt), and total Ukraine spending is about 1/8 of what we pay annually on debt interest alone. I like Harris, but he's obviously blowing with the political wind.

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This is where we draw the line... Yeah, unless the GOP President wants it. And if it benefits anyone on this Board directly, they would about face in a heart beat... Hypocrisy at its best. We have been supporting NATO fighting totalitarianism since 1946, not it is unfashionable.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

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Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

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Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

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Rybar Live: Kherson Direction - August 15, 2023 pic.twitter.com/lIgcRnphCN

— Rybar Force (@rybar_force) August 15, 2023

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LOL. The only way to credibly use Russian milblogger reporting in one's analysis is to confirm bad news for Russia. If RUS milbloggers are talking about something bad happening, it must be REALLY bad. Otherwise, it's like listening to cheerleaders for play by play reporting on the game.

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Arguing about sources in this context is pointless for many reasons. There's no detailed, up-to-date coverage in mainstream media, so there's usually no "legitimate" standard by which to compare. We're all relying on bloggers to a great extent. Mistakes are inevitable in the fog of war. Facts change day by day and hour by hour. Even so, material contradictions between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian sources are surprisingly rare. If you were to follow multiple sources, you'd find that they're often slower to report good news for their own side in order to avoid the appearance of bias. Finally, I would point out that the ISW blog, which you cite almost exclusively, is operated by the sister-in-law of Victoria Nuland, who was largely responsible for master-minding this debacle from the beginning. If you were tasked to find a source with the greatest likelihood of bias or personal interest, you probably couldn't do any better.

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LOL. Degrading standards to get all the pigs muddly Nobody is disputing Uke crossed the river and established a foothold on the east bank. Only a few RusBloggers are saying the Ukes have been expelled.

ISW reports/assesses what can be visually confirmed.......

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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trey3216 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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ISW assessments are quite conservative. Other sources which have been correct on the Kozachi Loheri are reporting Uke has established a second bridgehead in the same area.

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Wiped out yesterday, according to Rybar.

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Yeah… saw nothing of the sort, even from Rybar

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Rybar Live: Kherson Direction - August 15, 2023 pic.twitter.com/lIgcRnphCN

— Rybar Force (@rybar_force) August 15, 2023

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LOL. The only way to credibly use Russian milblogger reporting in one's analysis is to confirm bad news for Russia. If RUS milbloggers are talking about something bad happening, it must be REALLY bad. Otherwise, it's like listening to cheerleaders for play by play reporting on the game.

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Arguing about sources in this context is pointless for many reasons. There's no detailed, up-to-date coverage in mainstream media, so there's usually no "legitimate" standard by which to compare. We're all relying on bloggers to a great extent. Mistakes are inevitable in the fog of war. Facts change day by day and hour by hour. Even so, material contradictions between pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian sources are surprisingly rare. If you were to follow multiple sources, you'd find that they're often slower to report good news for their own side in order to avoid the appearance of bias. Finally, I would point out that the ISW blog, which you cite almost exclusively, is operated by the sister-in-law of Victoria Nuland, who was largely responsible for master-minding this debacle from the beginning. If you were tasked to find a source with the greatest likelihood of bias or personal interest, you probably couldn't do any better.

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LOL. Degrading standards to get all the pigs muddly Nobody is disputing Uke crossed the river and established a foothold on the east bank. Only a few RusBloggers are saying the Ukes have been expelled.

ISW reports/assesses what can be visually confirmed.......

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ISW posts unconfirmed reports from milbloggers all the time. They even posted the one we're talking about right now. I noted the source. Take it or leave it, but let's not pretend there isn't bias on both sides.