whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

That's accurate, but doesn't come close to telling the story. The story is about what % of those truly identify as Russian and support Russia.

---

"In Sevastopol large numbers support Russia"

Minute 0:59

"NBC newsman: is Crimea Russian or Ukrainian?

Women on the streets: Russian, of course!"

---

Not surprising after 9 years of policies encouraging Russian migration to Crimea.

---

Russians have comprise a significant percentage of the population since Catherine the Great invited in settlers after beating the Ottoman Turks in the 1700s

She also invited in German settlers and others.

Ethnic Russians have probably comprised a decent majority since before the First World War.

Obviously that changed even more after Stalin deported the Muslim Tartars and the Germans.

This is not some recent 9 year ago phenomena.

Nor is that going to change unless the US wants to support Kyiv in an ethnic cleaning campaign to forcibly change the demographics of the Crimea.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

That's accurate, but doesn't come close to telling the story. The story is about what % of those truly identify as Russian and support Russia.

---

They took a vote, but we can't trust that since Putin is literally the devil and no legitimate vote could ever be pro-Russian. The only way to know for sure would be to confirm the vote through independent polling. Which we did. But the only way to really know would be through multiple surveys conducted by multiple mainstream media organizations in the West. Which we also did. The only mystery at this point is how we can still pretend not to know what Crimea wants.

---

Wait, you subscribe to the 88% turnout and 97% vote favoring annexation story?

---

More or less. Why shouldn't I?

---

First, it's comical and mathematically impossible on its face. Those turnout numbers in Eastern Europe don't come close to happening, and when do 97% agree on anything?

Two, why wouldn't pro-Russia politicians have done better there? There were numerous elections leading up to that to serve as benchmarks.

Three, there were very public and open protests of folks vowing not to vote and encouraging others no to. Yet 97% turnout?

Fourth, high turnout when Russian troops manned metro polling stations?

Fifth, independent studies estimated about 30% turnout and a slight majority voting in favor. In fact, pre-election, estimates were about 1/3 turnout.

Finally, those numbers sound much like North Korea, Iran, and Russia's own election "numbers" . . . .

Other than that . . . .

---

Before 2014 the numbers were 60-70 percent in support of annexation. Post-referendum polls by Pew, Gallup, and the US Government all showed 80 percent or more agreeing that the vote was fair and valid. Support likely increased because of the Maidan coup itself and the fact that maintaining the status quo wasn't an option on the ballot.

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

That's accurate, but doesn't come close to telling the story. The story is about what % of those truly identify as Russian and support Russia.

---

They took a vote, but we can't trust that since Putin is literally the devil and no legitimate vote could ever be pro-Russian. The only way to know for sure would be to confirm the vote through independent polling. Which we did. But the only way to really know would be through multiple surveys conducted by multiple mainstream media organizations in the West. Which we also did. The only mystery at this point is how we can still pretend not to know what Crimea wants.

---

Wait, you subscribe to the 88% turnout and 97% vote favoring annexation story?

---

More or less. Why shouldn't I?

---

First, it's comical and mathematically impossible on its face. Those turnout numbers in Eastern Europe don't come close to happening, and when do 97% agree on anything?

Two, why wouldn't pro-Russia politicians have done better there? There were numerous elections leading up to that to serve as benchmarks.

Three, there were very public and open protests of folks vowing not to vote and encouraging others no to. Yet 97% turnout?

Fourth, high turnout when Russian troops manned metro polling stations?

Fifth, independent studies estimated about 30% turnout and a slight majority voting in favor. In fact, pre-election, estimates were about 1/3 turnout.

Finally, those numbers sound much like North Korea, Iran, and Russia's own election "numbers" . . . .

Other than that . . . .

---

Before 2014 the numbers were 60-70 percent in support of annexation. Post-referendum polls by Pew, Gallup, and the US Government all showed 80 percent or more agreeing that the vote was fair and valid. Support likely increased because of the Maidan coup itself and the fact that maintaining the status quo wasn't an option on the ballot.

---

Voting alongside the barrel of a gun doesn't usually lead to honest voting.

---

Yet the US government and Western pollsters confirmed the results, presumably without holding respondents at gunpoint. It's almost as if the stories of Russian interference were exaggerated...

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The certain way to a hot war is that the Ukrainians start winning. Fortunately the chances of that are roughly zero. But those who cheer for Ukraine should be aware that's what they're supporting. What's much more likely is that Biden or some other idiot makes a mistake and things get out of control. Evidently that's a risk that the Russophobes are either oblivious to or are willing to accept.

---

If Russia's a big enough bltch to get their ass kicked by Ukraine, and then start a hot war with NATO...then they absolutely deserve to be eviscerated from the face of the earth.

---

Neither of those things will happen. What could happen in theory is that Russia resorts to tactical nukes in Ukraine and NATO feels compelled to retaliate. But again, Russia would actually have to be in danger of losing, so we're talking parallel universes here.

---

Russian can wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth and NATO has no treaty obligation to do anything about it.

Just like China can wipe Mongolia off the map and the United States has no treaty obligation to interfere.

Luckily the people who rule in Moscow and Beijing are not insane...what they want is for Ukraine and Mongolia to be inside their respective economic-cultural-military spheres of influence.

Just like we want and demand that Canada and Mexico be in ours.....

---

When we invade Canada or Mexico to force them into our "sphere of influence," a hell of a euphemism for annexation, we can talk about the similarities here. Until then, this is not just a false equivalency, it's actively spreading Russian propaganda.

The facts here are simple and indisputable. There is a war in Ukraine currently for one reason and one reason only. Russia invaded. And they did so to the shock of all those who are now defending them.

This is quite literally a geopolitical case of "Don't start no ****, won't be no *****"

---

I was in no way shocked. I would have been, if the US had allowed Ukraine to chart its own course and Putin still felt the need to invade.

---

This is bull****, Sam. And I believe you're too intelligent and well-read not to know that. It's not the West's fault that most formerly authoritarian/colonized lands choose self-rule once they're given a taste of freedom/democracy.

Blaming the US for the Ukrainians' desire to be free of Russia is absurd. It takes all agency away from a population that has quite literally fought very hard to every advancement of freedom it has gotten in the past 35-40 years.

The Ukrainians didn't need to be convinced by the West that they didn't want to be ruled by Russia or a Russian puppet government. They learned that the hard way as part of the Soviet Union, and they earned/value their freedom every bit as much as the United States or any Western European nation.

---

I believe you're also intelligent and well-read, but you're not listening to what Russia or even large parts of Ukraine are saying. Perhaps more important, you're not looking at what the US has done and continues to do. No one in possession of the facts could imagine that we've left Ukraine with any meaningful agency.

---

They could run up the white flag, but they don't. Because +90% of Ukrainians want ALL their territory back.

Note the projection here: it is Sam who removes all meaningful agency from Ukrainians.

---

As usual you forget that there's another side. Ukraine can't end a war the US started, and Russia knows it.

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Is it RU propaganda to question US decision making after 20 years of failed forever war and "national building" that ended in total disaster?

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The certain way to a hot war is that the Ukrainians start winning. Fortunately the chances of that are roughly zero. But those who cheer for Ukraine should be aware that's what they're supporting. What's much more likely is that Biden or some other idiot makes a mistake and things get out of control. Evidently that's a risk that the Russophobes are either oblivious to or are willing to accept.

---

If Russia's a big enough bltch to get their ass kicked by Ukraine, and then start a hot war with NATO...then they absolutely deserve to be eviscerated from the face of the earth.

---

Neither of those things will happen. What could happen in theory is that Russia resorts to tactical nukes in Ukraine and NATO feels compelled to retaliate. But again, Russia would actually have to be in danger of losing, so we're talking parallel universes here.

---

Russian can wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth and NATO has no treaty obligation to do anything about it.

Just like China can wipe Mongolia off the map and the United States has no treaty obligation to interfere.

Luckily the people who rule in Moscow and Beijing are not insane...what they want is for Ukraine and Mongolia to be inside their respective economic-cultural-military spheres of influence.

Just like we want and demand that Canada and Mexico be in ours.....

---

When we invade Canada or Mexico to force them into our "sphere of influence," a hell of a euphemism for annexation, we can talk about the similarities here. Until then, this is not just a false equivalency, it's actively spreading Russian propaganda.

The facts here are simple and indisputable. There is a war in Ukraine currently for one reason and one reason only. Russia invaded. And they did so to the shock of all those who are now defending them.

This is quite literally a geopolitical case of "Don't start no ****, won't be no *****"

---

I was in no way shocked. I would have been, if the US had allowed Ukraine to chart its own course and Putin still felt the need to invade.

---

This is bull****, Sam. And I believe you're too intelligent and well-read not to know that. It's not the West's fault that most formerly authoritarian/colonized lands choose self-rule once they're given a taste of freedom/democracy.

Blaming the US for the Ukrainians' desire to be free of Russia is absurd. It takes all agency away from a population that has quite literally fought very hard to every advancement of freedom it has gotten in the past 35-40 years.

The Ukrainians didn't need to be convinced by the West that they didn't want to be ruled by Russia or a Russian puppet government. They learned that the hard way as part of the Soviet Union, and they earned/value their freedom every bit as much as the United States or any Western European nation.

---

I believe you're also intelligent and well-read, but you're not listening to what Russia or even large parts of Ukraine are saying. Perhaps more important, you're not looking at what the US has done and continues to do. No one in possession of the facts could imagine that we've left Ukraine with any meaningful agency.

---

They could run up the white flag, but they don't. Because +90% of Ukrainians want ALL their territory back.

Note the projection here: it is Sam who removes all meaningful agency from Ukrainians.

---

As usual you forget that there's another side. Ukraine can't end a war the US started, and Russia knows it.

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Is it RU propaganda to question US decision making after 20 years of failed forever war and "national building" that ended in total disaster?

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The certain way to a hot war is that the Ukrainians start winning. Fortunately the chances of that are roughly zero. But those who cheer for Ukraine should be aware that's what they're supporting. What's much more likely is that Biden or some other idiot makes a mistake and things get out of control. Evidently that's a risk that the Russophobes are either oblivious to or are willing to accept.

---

If Russia's a big enough bltch to get their ass kicked by Ukraine, and then start a hot war with NATO...then they absolutely deserve to be eviscerated from the face of the earth.

---

Neither of those things will happen. What could happen in theory is that Russia resorts to tactical nukes in Ukraine and NATO feels compelled to retaliate. But again, Russia would actually have to be in danger of losing, so we're talking parallel universes here.

---

Russian can wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth and NATO has no treaty obligation to do anything about it.

Just like China can wipe Mongolia off the map and the United States has no treaty obligation to interfere.

Luckily the people who rule in Moscow and Beijing are not insane...what they want is for Ukraine and Mongolia to be inside their respective economic-cultural-military spheres of influence.

Just like we want and demand that Canada and Mexico be in ours.....

---

When we invade Canada or Mexico to force them into our "sphere of influence," a hell of a euphemism for annexation, we can talk about the similarities here. Until then, this is not just a false equivalency, it's actively spreading Russian propaganda.

The facts here are simple and indisputable. There is a war in Ukraine currently for one reason and one reason only. Russia invaded. And they did so to the shock of all those who are now defending them.

This is quite literally a geopolitical case of "Don't start no ****, won't be no *****"

---

I was in no way shocked. I would have been, if the US had allowed Ukraine to chart its own course and Putin still felt the need to invade.

---

This is bull****, Sam. And I believe you're too intelligent and well-read not to know that. It's not the West's fault that most formerly authoritarian/colonized lands choose self-rule once they're given a taste of freedom/democracy.

Blaming the US for the Ukrainians' desire to be free of Russia is absurd. It takes all agency away from a population that has quite literally fought very hard to every advancement of freedom it has gotten in the past 35-40 years.

The Ukrainians didn't need to be convinced by the West that they didn't want to be ruled by Russia or a Russian puppet government. They learned that the hard way as part of the Soviet Union, and they earned/value their freedom every bit as much as the United States or any Western European nation.

---

I believe you're also intelligent and well-read, but you're not listening to what Russia or even large parts of Ukraine are saying. Perhaps more important, you're not looking at what the US has done and continues to do. No one in possession of the facts could imagine that we've left Ukraine with any meaningful agency.

---

They could run up the white flag, but they don't. Because +90% of Ukrainians want ALL their territory back.

Note the projection here: it is Sam who removes all meaningful agency from Ukrainians.

---

As usual you forget that there's another side. Ukraine can't end a war the US started, and Russia knows it.

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The certain way to a hot war is that the Ukrainians start winning. Fortunately the chances of that are roughly zero. But those who cheer for Ukraine should be aware that's what they're supporting. What's much more likely is that Biden or some other idiot makes a mistake and things get out of control. Evidently that's a risk that the Russophobes are either oblivious to or are willing to accept.

---

If Russia's a big enough bltch to get their ass kicked by Ukraine, and then start a hot war with NATO...then they absolutely deserve to be eviscerated from the face of the earth.

---

Neither of those things will happen. What could happen in theory is that Russia resorts to tactical nukes in Ukraine and NATO feels compelled to retaliate. But again, Russia would actually have to be in danger of losing, so we're talking parallel universes here.

---

Russian can wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth and NATO has no treaty obligation to do anything about it.

Just like China can wipe Mongolia off the map and the United States has no treaty obligation to interfere.

Luckily the people who rule in Moscow and Beijing are not insane...what they want is for Ukraine and Mongolia to be inside their respective economic-cultural-military spheres of influence.

Just like we want and demand that Canada and Mexico be in ours.....

---

When we invade Canada or Mexico to force them into our "sphere of influence," a hell of a euphemism for annexation, we can talk about the similarities here. Until then, this is not just a false equivalency, it's actively spreading Russian propaganda.

The facts here are simple and indisputable. There is a war in Ukraine currently for one reason and one reason only. Russia invaded. And they did so to the shock of all those who are now defending them.

This is quite literally a geopolitical case of "Don't start no ****, won't be no *****"

---

I was in no way shocked. I would have been, if the US had allowed Ukraine to chart its own course and Putin still felt the need to invade.

---

This is bull****, Sam. And I believe you're too intelligent and well-read not to know that. It's not the West's fault that most formerly authoritarian/colonized lands choose self-rule once they're given a taste of freedom/democracy.

Blaming the US for the Ukrainians' desire to be free of Russia is absurd. It takes all agency away from a population that has quite literally fought very hard to every advancement of freedom it has gotten in the past 35-40 years.

The Ukrainians didn't need to be convinced by the West that they didn't want to be ruled by Russia or a Russian puppet government. They learned that the hard way as part of the Soviet Union, and they earned/value their freedom every bit as much as the United States or any Western European nation.

---

I believe you're also intelligent and well-read, but you're not listening to what Russia or even large parts of Ukraine are saying. Perhaps more important, you're not looking at what the US has done and continues to do. No one in possession of the facts could imagine that we've left Ukraine with any meaningful agency.

---

They could run up the white flag, but they don't. Because +90% of Ukrainians want ALL their territory back.

Note the projection here: it is Sam who removes all meaningful agency from Ukrainians.

---

As usual you forget that there's another side. Ukraine can't end a war the US started, and Russia knows it.

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Is it RU propaganda to question US decision making after 20 years of failed forever war and "national building" that ended in total disaster?

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

To a decent number of posters on this site...yea any criticism of the D.C. Blob over the past 25 years of failure is de facto evidence of Russian propaganda.

KaiBear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The certain way to a hot war is that the Ukrainians start winning. Fortunately the chances of that are roughly zero. But those who cheer for Ukraine should be aware that's what they're supporting. What's much more likely is that Biden or some other idiot makes a mistake and things get out of control. Evidently that's a risk that the Russophobes are either oblivious to or are willing to accept.

---

If Russia's a big enough bltch to get their ass kicked by Ukraine, and then start a hot war with NATO...then they absolutely deserve to be eviscerated from the face of the earth.

---

Neither of those things will happen. What could happen in theory is that Russia resorts to tactical nukes in Ukraine and NATO feels compelled to retaliate. But again, Russia would actually have to be in danger of losing, so we're talking parallel universes here.

---

Russian can wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth and NATO has no treaty obligation to do anything about it.

Just like China can wipe Mongolia off the map and the United States has no treaty obligation to interfere.

Luckily the people who rule in Moscow and Beijing are not insane...what they want is for Ukraine and Mongolia to be inside their respective economic-cultural-military spheres of influence.

Just like we want and demand that Canada and Mexico be in ours.....

---

When we invade Canada or Mexico to force them into our "sphere of influence," a hell of a euphemism for annexation, we can talk about the similarities here. Until then, this is not just a false equivalency, it's actively spreading Russian propaganda.

The facts here are simple and indisputable. There is a war in Ukraine currently for one reason and one reason only. Russia invaded. And they did so to the shock of all those who are now defending them.

This is quite literally a geopolitical case of "Don't start no ****, won't be no *****"

---

I was in no way shocked. I would have been, if the US had allowed Ukraine to chart its own course and Putin still felt the need to invade.

---

This is bull****, Sam. And I believe you're too intelligent and well-read not to know that. It's not the West's fault that most formerly authoritarian/colonized lands choose self-rule once they're given a taste of freedom/democracy.

Blaming the US for the Ukrainians' desire to be free of Russia is absurd. It takes all agency away from a population that has quite literally fought very hard to every advancement of freedom it has gotten in the past 35-40 years.

The Ukrainians didn't need to be convinced by the West that they didn't want to be ruled by Russia or a Russian puppet government. They learned that the hard way as part of the Soviet Union, and they earned/value their freedom every bit as much as the United States or any Western European nation.

---

I believe you're also intelligent and well-read, but you're not listening to what Russia or even large parts of Ukraine are saying. Perhaps more important, you're not looking at what the US has done and continues to do. No one in possession of the facts could imagine that we've left Ukraine with any meaningful agency.

---

They could run up the white flag, but they don't. Because +90% of Ukrainians want ALL their territory back.

Note the projection here: it is Sam who removes all meaningful agency from Ukrainians.

---

As usual you forget that there's another side. Ukraine can't end a war the US started, and Russia knows it.

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

Don't conflate war and regime building. It's easy to win the war when you're the badass MOFO and everyone else is a pencil thin hipster. It's the regime building that has proved a problem. We were pretty good at regime change after WWII. Did ok in much of Latin America. Sucked at it in Asia and the Middle East, though. The variable is resolve. You have to really destroy a country, then spend decades building it back up, teaching new societal values, re-shaping institutions, etc..... What you cannot do is wade in & knock off a tinpot regime, then think a bunch of aid packages over a few years while leaving all those societal and governmental things largely intact is going to transform the entity into something new and different.

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages. It was, after all, a demonstration of power not seen in human history = not a square inch of the planet is safe from our wrath so "don't tread on me." But when you attempt an end game (regime building), you take on an entirely different mission that requires every bit as much resolve and far more money. If we'd just bombed every boats on Somali shores and picked a winner out of the chaos, we'd have ended Somali piracy and there'd have been no Black Hawk Down. But a democratic society has a hard time with Pavlovian policy - shelling ports & raiding facilities to coerce desirable behavior.

We still have some growing up to do.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

Don't conflate war and regime building. It's easy to win the war when you're the badass MOFO and everyone else is a pencil thin hipster. It's the regime building that has proved a problem. We were pretty good at regime change after WWII. Did ok in much of Latin America. Sucked at it in Asia and the Middle East, though...

---

Leaving aside the philosophical idea of nation building/regime change and if that is what the USA should be doing at all....

On a simple practical level the elite in D.C. have sucked a nation building since the World War II generation left power.

The past 25 years have been especially terrible.

And there is no reason to think they have gotten any better at it since then.

So again....if we failed in Iraq and Afghanistan....why are we letting the CIA and State Department get high thinking about it for Russia and China.

Regime change wars over the past 25 years have killed and displaced millions....in Russia and China it would be even worse.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

Don't conflate war and regime building. It's easy to win the war when you're the badass MOFO and everyone else is a pencil thin hipster. It's the regime building that has proved a problem. We were pretty good at regime change after WWII. Did ok in much of Latin America. Sucked at it in Asia and the Middle East, though...

---

Leaving aside the philosophical idea of nation building/regime change and if that is what the USA should be doing at all....

On a simple practical level the elite in D.C. have sucked a nation building since the World War II generation left power.

The past 25 years have been especially terrible.

And there is no reason to think they have gotten any better at it since then.

So again....if we failed in Iraq and Afghanistan....why are we letting the CIA and State Department get high thinking about it for Russia and China.

Regime change wars over the past 25 years have killed and displaced millions....in Russia and China it would be even worse.

---

We failed in Iraq and Afghanistan because we were not willing to do to them what we did to Nazi Germany and Japan - fire bomb cities, and worse. If you are not prepared to force societal change, you should not attempt nation building. Short of that, stick to the tried & true "punitive expedition." Invade, break a bunch of stuff, capture/kill the rulers, and leave. The only goal of such is to send the message not to tread on the USA. You do that a few times, and tinpot dictators will indeed learn that it's bad for their business model to *uck with the USofA, or hang around with those who do.

For all that can be said about the Taliban retaking control in Afghanistan, they know full well that the USofA is capable of running their *sses back up into the caves of the Hindu Kush and keeping them there for a decade or three until we get bored kicking the *hit out of them. That is not good for their business model. Sure, they'll still hate us and say horrible things about us. But it will be a good long while before they *uck with us again.

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

Isn't the OP still Biden Bribes?

4:40 a.m. ET, January 24, 2023
Ukraine's deputy defense minister resigns amid corruption allegations
From CNN's Kostan Nechyporenko
Ukraine's deputy defense minister Viacheslav Shapovalov has resigned after allegations of corruption surfaced in the media.

Shapovalov submitted his resignation after a "campaign of accusations related to the procurement of food supply (to the Armed Forces of Ukraine)," according to a statement from the ministry, which described the allegations as "unfounded and baseless."

The minister was responsible for the logistics of the Armed Forces, the statement said.

On Monday, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine said that it was investigating "high-profile media reports about possible abuses by the Ministry of Defense in the procurement of food for the military."

In his resignation letter, Shapovalov said he was leaving so as not to distract from the war effort.

"Due to the large public outcry, which was largely provoked by unsubstantiated manipulations around the issue of supplying the Armed Forces of Ukraine, there are risks of destabilizing the army supply processes. This is unacceptable during the war with Russia," reads the letter.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

"Buh buh buh whaddabout?!?!"

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

"Buh buh buh whaddabout?!?!"

---

So, no reason.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

"Buh buh buh whaddabout?!?!"

---

So, no reason.

---

Sam "I want Russia to win" Lowry looking for some love for Russia.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

---

"Decadent West" is a pro-RU propaganda talking point. But good job I guess.

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

---

"Decadent West" is a pro-RU propaganda talking point.

---

Of course it is….and it's also true.

Just like "Putin is a thug" is a Western propaganda talking point…that is also true.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

---

"Decadent West" is a pro-RU propaganda talking point.

---

Of course it is….and it's also true.

Just like "Putin is a thug" is a Western propaganda talking point…that is also true.

---

Very cool you realize the 2nd part being true.

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

---

"Decadent West" is a pro-RU propaganda talking point.

---

Of course it is….and it's also true.

Just like "Putin is a thug" is a Western propaganda talking point…that is also true.

---

Very cool you realize the 2nd part.

---

You just like your propaganda fed to you from one side.

I enjoy analyzing it and questioning all of it.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

---

"Decadent West" is a pro-RU propaganda talking point.

---

Of course it is….and it's also true.

Just like "Putin is a thug" is a Western propaganda talking point…that is also true.

---

Very cool you realize the 2nd part.

---

You just like your propaganda fed to you from one side.

I enjoy analyzing it and questioning all of it.

---

Uh huh.

Admittedly there are times you do share something surprising.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

Both are real. The threats from both seem to be exagerrated pawns in the authoritarian-industrial complex.

Wait, the West is decadent? I never thought of that before. Better check with RT to make sure…

Redbrickbear said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

---

The difference being that the Russian threat is imaginary and viruses are real.

---

The only thing imaginary is your view of Russia.

---

Why do you hate them so much? Please don't give me a list of crimes against "democracy" that the US and its allies have more than matched. I'm curious about the real reason.

---

When you stop deep-throating RU propaganda, then we can talk.

I know, I know "Buh whaddabout CIA/NSA/US/Decadent West propaganda!??!"

---

At least you admit that CIA/NSA/Washington propaganda is decadent.

I think acknowledging the truth is always a good starting point for having real discussions.

---

The masks do add an extra level of Idiocracy.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Wait, the West is decadent? I never thought of that before. Better check with RT to make sure…

---

Might as well. It's where you get the rest of your talking points, there and Solovyov.

Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Wait, the West is decadent? I never thought of that before. Better check with RT to make sure…

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Might as well. It's where you get the rest of your talking points, there and Solovyov.

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Never heard of him.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

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Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

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Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

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Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

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Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

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No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

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The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

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Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

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Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

Isn't the OP still Biden Bribes?

4:40 a.m. ET, January 24, 2023
Ukraine's deputy defense minister resigns amid corruption allegations
From CNN's Kostan Nechyporenko
Ukraine's deputy defense minister Viacheslav Shapovalov has resigned after allegations of corruption surfaced in the media.

Shapovalov submitted his resignation after a "campaign of accusations related to the procurement of food supply (to the Armed Forces of Ukraine)," according to a statement from the ministry, which described the allegations as "unfounded and baseless."

The minister was responsible for the logistics of the Armed Forces, the statement said.

On Monday, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine said that it was investigating "high-profile media reports about possible abuses by the Ministry of Defense in the procurement of food for the military."

In his resignation letter, Shapovalov said he was leaving so as not to distract from the war effort.

"Due to the large public outcry, which was largely provoked by unsubstantiated manipulations around the issue of supplying the Armed Forces of Ukraine, there are risks of destabilizing the army supply processes. This is unacceptable during the war with Russia," reads the letter.

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this is progress. 10 years ago, there'd be no scandal and he'd still have job.

whiterock said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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As usual you continue to show your vatnik stupidity.

---

Is everyone a Russian agent?

Or just anyone who opposes neo-con psychopaths and war mongers like you?

---

Only the ones actually pushing RU-propaganda like you, vatnik.

---

Were you cool with $7 trillion being spent on that absolute train wreck that got thousands of children killed?

---

Crazy as it seems, many people do think its cool.

Raised on video games they don't really comprehend the carnage of war.

Till they actually get called up to fight and possibly ripped apart by shrapnel. Or they see first hand what's left of a human body after its been burned to a crisp.

THEN all of a sudden they want to re evaluate the entire situation.

---

No only is modern warfare seriously horrible...been that way since smoothed bored muskets were replaced by rifled guns. (From a smooth-bore musket, 42% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 200 yards. At a distance of 300 yards, only 18% of the bullets hit the target. For a rifle, the results were much better. From a rifle, 58% of bullets hit the target at a distance of 300 yards; 42% at 500 yards)

Little valor anymore in getting your legs blow off by a hidden mine or shot dead for peeking up over a trench without even seeing the enemy.


But leaving the horror of modern war aside...no one as explained how the USA has gotten any better at regime change and long term occupation.

We can beat anyone in a peer army to army contest (Russia, China, Iran, anyone) yet as Iraq and Afghanistan showed us we can not regime change successfully or hold these nations long term.

If we could not hold Iraq (smaller than Texas) how are we gonna hold Russia (largest nation on earth) or China (size of the continental USA)?

We have a lot of people rooting on wars with some big nations and with no plan for how we are going to occupy them after the wars are over.

We should be doing our best to avoid wars with such states as Russia, China, Iran....not getting hyped up about the possibility.

---

The error in Afghanistan was in not leaving the day after Bin Ladin got buried at sea. If we'd done that, Afghan Policy would have been rightly lauded for the ages.

---

Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman would have missed out on hundreds of billions in profit had that been the case. Something to think about.

---

Sounds like Pfizer, Moderna, and the ronas.

Isn't the OP still Biden Bribes?

4:40 a.m. ET, January 24, 2023
Ukraine's deputy defense minister resigns amid corruption allegations
From CNN's Kostan Nechyporenko
Ukraine's deputy defense minister Viacheslav Shapovalov has resigned after allegations of corruption surfaced in the media.

Shapovalov submitted his resignation after a "campaign of accusations related to the procurement of food supply (to the Armed Forces of Ukraine)," according to a statement from the ministry, which described the allegations as "unfounded and baseless."

The minister was responsible for the logistics of the Armed Forces, the statement said.

On Monday, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine said that it was investigating "high-profile media reports about possible abuses by the Ministry of Defense in the procurement of food for the military."

In his resignation letter, Shapovalov said he was leaving so as not to distract from the war effort.

"Due to the large public outcry, which was largely provoked by unsubstantiated manipulations around the issue of supplying the Armed Forces of Ukraine, there are risks of destabilizing the army supply processes. This is unacceptable during the war with Russia," reads the letter.

---

this is progress. 10 years ago, there'd be no scandal and he'd still have job.

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Not to mention an army.