whiterock said:

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If you think Russia isn't going to do what I've said before - try to destabilize NATO countries for the purpose of destabilizing NATO itself - you are not thinking clearly.

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You are dead on.

Funny, people think that Russian and Chinese disinformation is only election and personal stuff. This SCREAMS Chinese disinformation to me. Russians are more direct in your face. Chinese are much more asymmetrical tinkers and like to play on the edges.

Personally I believe this is how China would use disinformation to limit our involvement. Same as using Russia in Ukraine and Iran/Hammas in Israel. Nothing directly tied back to them. Very Sun Tzu. After all, they wrote the book.

quash said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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No I don't misunderstand geopolitics. I know enough that isolationism is a ticket to being in a weakened state...

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Isolationist? lol

The USA is not isolationist and has not been for 75 years…and is in no danger of being so

This is about if the USA should risk all it has over peripheral 3rd world states that offer us very very little.

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We are not in Ukraine. There are no troops in Ukraine. We are supporting them by providing equipment and info. Now, we can discuss level of support. But, not supporting basically give Russia carte blanche. I am surprised, so many "Reagan-ites" that are against supporting a Nation trying to align west. Very un-Ronnie.

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Ukraine is not a nation "trying to align west."

Ukraine elected a Russia leaning president. We helped get him kicked out. We rejected the EU's choice (Remember Victoria Nuland's "**** the EU"? **** Victoria Nuland.) We helped put a thug in power.

He is not aligning with the West, he is getting financed by the west.

Again, without any direct American interest at risk or at play.

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The fulcrum of your argument is historical spin fortified with making stuff up for which you have not a shred of evidence (other than your argument needs it to be so). What actually happened is this:
Ukraine elected a Russia-leaning President (from the Donbas, not at all coincidentally) who promised to continue Ukraine's move to join the EU. When the Ukrainian Parliament sent him the bill that would formally do so (join EU), he vetoed it. Public demonstrations ensued. He ordered police to shoot unarmed protestors. They did. Protests intensified. He fled to Russia. Pro-west factions won the next election.

If you just want to let Russia have Ukraine, say so. You'd be advising very bad policy, but at least you'd be honest about it.

FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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WE have no troops in Ukraine.

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We 100 percent have special ops in Ukraine AND Gaza and they have seen combat in the latter theater.

Maybe one of these days we will get back to requiring a declaration of war before putting the military in harms way.

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US Army SF is in 133 Nations, of course they are there. That is not the use of "troops" in this context. Those guys volunteer and know they are going to do this, that is the job. Anytime you hear "advisors" it is SF, they spend most of their careers somewhere else.

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Exactly. Training is their primary mission. And "training" is a very broad term. Covers a lot of things, from teaching officers how to make sergeants, to teaching sergeants how to lead privates in small unit tactics to take out enemy tank columns, and teaching privates how to assemble, use, clean, and deploy various anti-tank weapons pursuant to the tactics being taught.. (hint hint).

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Well…We almost fought a nuclear war with the USSR over Cuba.

And we did it because we would never accept Soviet troops so close to our borders.

Of course modern Russia will never accept NATO troops in eastern Ukraine.

And of course Cuba was not a major port for the USA navy….like Crimea is for the Russian fleet.

And Soviet troops could not drive from Cuba to Miami.

American-NATO troops in Ukraine could roll right to Moscow by highway

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You just undermined your own position (and that of Quash & others).

WE have no troops in Ukraine.

If NATO is justified in keeping Soviets out of Cuba (proximity to US borders), why would NATO not have the exact same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine (proximity to borders of 4 member states?

"We can't afford it" is a valid reason.
"We have no interest" is inane.

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1. According to my Army Major buddy we in fact 100% do have special ops inside Ukraine helping to direct the war.

So I think you are incorrect on that. I think you mean we don't have a large troop deployment…yet

And again.
Well, yes. We have no combat forces in Ukraine. That is the standard. Yet you cherry pick every possible alternative to conflate any presence of a single US soldier or rifle to build a template that we have justified the Russian invasion of Ukraine. By your standard, we have invaded almost every country in the world. (Defense Attache offices in embassies, military training missions (MilMish), military observers, military aid, etc...) All of those things are milennia-old and not considered acts of war, or any more threatening to third-country nations than diplomatic presence (as they are typically considered part of diplomatic relationships.) I would suggest we've had a continuous S/F presence in Ukraine since 2014, that much of what the world has lauded as Ukrainian pluck & brilliance was in fact trained & practiced with help of foreign military observers. I have no doubt we have a MilMish unit in Kyiv that observes and advises the UKR general staff on strategy and tactics, logistics from produrement thru deployment and maintenance. None of that is a strategic or tactical threat to Russia.

2. If Ukraine was a such a major vital strategic interest for the USA our policy planners up until 1995 would not have been telling us that everything east of the Bug river was NOT essential.

Cuba is vital to the USA
Again, we see a very sloppy argument. You say Cuba is vital (implicitly setting it up as an analogue for your argument), that we have no business poking around in Ukraine, when it in fact the plain history and current status mostly undermine your argument. We allow Cuba to remain part of orbits hostile to the USA, do we not? Why do we allow it to purchase weapons from nations hostile to us....practice diplomacy hostile to us...purchasing Russian/Chinese weapons systems, training terrorist groups....doing observer missions in conflicts which threaten our interests....etc.... Do you not think Russia/China has military advisors, trainers, observers, etc...in Cuba? Do you not think those two nations have taught courses on how to respond to US invasion of Cuba? Do you not think they will have observers/advisors on the ground if/when we do invade Cuba? You are simply not being serious here.

Crimea is vital to Russia
Yes, it is, at least in the Russian mind. But your argument must accept that importance is not in context of "essential to defense of the Russian homeland," but rather "essential to the projection of Russian power." So if they lose control of it, it would have comparable impact on the defense of Mother Russia to the US loss of basing rights in Diego Garcia = no real threat to Moscow (or WDC), just a sharply reduced ability to deploy troops to protect Russian (US) interest in areas far removed from the homeland. More to the point, Crimea is NOT Russia. They do not have a right to own it. They have to hold it against all comers, to include the nation which holds internationally recognized sovereignty rights - Ukraine. All of the foregoing facts means = we (Nato) have a clear interest (multiple levels) in removing Russia from Crimea if they are not too weak to hold it. And right now, their control is in serious jeopardy.

You should be very wary of the latent historical justification for your argument.. Damascus once controlled Madrid. Are we to craft our policy in Europe and Middle East premised on the notion that Syria has some level of right to do so again? (when reality is, the question is merely a power dynamic... Can they? Uh, no. If Russia cannot hold Crimea, then Russia is not entitled to it.)

Ukraine is NOT vital to the USA
Almost always, and certainly uniformly when leveled by policy critics, that statement is uttered to mean "no interest at all." That is just flatly false. By virtue of being a member state in Nato, we do have a strong interest in what happens in Ukraine, considerably strong enough to justify the very modest expenditures of support we have extended to the Ukrainian government. It is our boys & girls (both of my two, in particular), who are going to have to fight if Russia moves eastward and creates instability in Eastern Europe.* The idea that it is completely irrelevant to any NATO nation whether Russian armies are stationed in Belgorad or Odessa is the most strategically inane argument one could make (yet here you are making it.)
*next summer, my daughter assumes her first command = a logistics unit dedicated to projection of US combat units into Eastern Europe in a future Russian conflict. The best way to keep her twiddling her thumbs is for Ukraine to regain all its territory from Russia.

3. And how is it that those 4 NATO member states are next to Ukraine? Because we expanded NATO post 1995.
A very wise decision.

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Policy critics are defacto making an utterly nonsensical argument that we should allow the USSR to collapse, rebuild itself, then reconstruct the Warsaw Pact....that we have absolutely no interest whatsoever spending a penny to prevent such from happening.

I mean.....I'm trying to be diplomatic here. But don't be a dumbass just because you're angry about budgets and borders.

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Talk about logical fallacies.

Who said we are going to let a new USSR come about?

Who said anything about a new Warsaw pact?

No one is getting 15 nations back together in a new USSR.

You can't have a new Warsaw pact because East Germany does not even exist anymore as a country and Poland-Romania-Hungary are all in NATO

That is some serious hyperbole….I am only assume that in your world view the Cold War never ended and it's still 1975

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when you're left with nothing but obtusity to make your case, you're in a bad spot. You have not heard of the CIS? YOUR policy is to let Russia have Ukraine, all of it....the largest former SSR not to join the CIS, compelled by force of arms to enter back into defacto alliance with Russia. And you would seriously attempt to argue that Russia is not going to try to re-form the USSR? (sans the ideological BS)

So you watch the little green men, the refugee flows, the insertion of nuclear weapons into Belarus, the constant threats away from the Ukrainian theater, and then look at the breadth of Russian history, and you see clear signs Russia has no intention of attempting to mover further west.....that it will respectfully allow the Batlics, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania to remain part of NATO. Geez. What a neophyte.

And if Russia does manage to destabilize Finland (see above re refugees), what do you think they will do with it. Do you think they would just let it go back neutral? Or are they going to force successor regimes to leave Nato and join a Russia defense alliance (CIS or other)? (...that Finland is at very small risk of destabilization from refugee or other ploys is not the point - the point is Russia is going to keep poking and prodding with thrusts, and the West is going to have to keep parrying and thrusting back. It is in that context you insist Ukraine does not matter a scintilla to the US/Nato.)

Power geopolitics never stops. Great powers always play in the shatter zone, with alliances and proxies if they can, directly if they cannot. It. never. ends. The only question one has is, "where do I propose to stop them" (because if you don't stop them somewhere, there is a fairly serious risk they will take over your country.)

Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Policy critics are defacto making an utterly nonsensical argument that we should allow the USSR to collapse, rebuild itself, then reconstruct the Warsaw Pact....that we have absolutely no interest whatsoever spending a penny to prevent such from happening.

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Not even the Russians want to rebuild the USSR.

That would be obvious if you followed their domestic policy to any degree.

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What, exactly, then, is the CIS?

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

BREAKING:

New video shows large groups of migrants from Somalia, Syria & Iraq being pushed toward the Finnish border by Russian security services.

Many are given bicycles by Russia for the final stretch.

Russia is using weaponized migration as a tool of hybrid warfare

🇫🇮🇷🇺 pic.twitter.com/YFLzk3MQxh

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) November 20, 2023

whiterock said:

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You have not heard of the CIS? YOUR policy is to let Russia have Ukraine, all of it....the largest former SSR not to join the CIS, compelled by force of arms to enter back into defacto alliance with Russia. And you would seriously attempt to argue that Russia is not going to try to re-form the USSR? (sans the ideological BS)

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The Commonwealth of Independent States - as the name indicates - is not an attempt to recreate the USSR. It's been around since 1991 and was born out of the need to cordinate regional economic, law enforcement, and other interests.

If you're pointing to the CIS as an attempt to recreate the USSR, you really have no business commenting on geopolitics.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

whiterock said:

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We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

We are almost $34 TRILLION in debt. This does not include unfunded liabilities. When you include that, what is owed is 4x that amount.

The budget deficit in 2023 is $2 TRILLION.

By 2051, the GAO's own estimates have our national debt service costs at 25% GDP.

By 2096, it reaches 48% of GDP.

This is exclusive of any higher, longer, or higher for longer actions by the federal reserve.

There's nothing "easy" about one single cent .gov spends going forward.

The United States is currently on a trajectory for national bankruptcy. Even if we could simply make habitual overspenders like whiterock disappear from the national conversation, it may simply be too late for a course correction.

Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

We are almost $34 TRILLION in debt. This does not include unfunded liabilities. When you include that, what is owed is 4x that amount.

The budget deficit in 2023 is $2 TRILLION.

By 2051, the GAO's own estimates have our national debt service costs at 25% GDP.

By 2096, it reaches 48% of GDP.

This is exclusive of any higher, longer, or higher for longer actions by the federal reserve.

There's nothing "easy" about one single cent .gov spends going forward.

---

In whiterock's budget there is always more money available for foreign adventurism and proxy wars

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

You cannot just cut our way out of the financial situation we are in. That is doomed to fail.

First alot of the debt is not recurring, several trillion was to deal with COVID. Good decision or bad, does not matter. We have the debt. That is the type of non-recurring, like War, that could be dealt with using bonds and investments. Trying to gut the Government to make up for that is bad policy.

Second, have to increase revenue. Increase tax base, like Reagan did. Corporate or new tech increasing market. We need new money, period.

Third, if areas are cut they need to be selectively gut, not across the board.

Finally, withdrawing from the World Stage is a nightmare scenario. China will take every inch we give them. If anything time for the US to go on the offensive and start funding infrastructure for allies. Following what many on here want would end up with China in the lead and that would be the start of the end.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

I do not disagree with you here. It is inexcusable that the border has been left like it is. There should be prosecutions.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse? And of those countries, how many have flat terrain that is not too far from population centers to blend in, with readily available help? How many of those have such a vast border? I'm not sure who is left.

Again, I'm not opining on the merits, just emphasizing that truly enforcing our border means a ton of $, and nothing else in the world compares to it.

I really do understand your point: $X on Ukraine, but only $Y on the border. I'm just saying that you can fill in X or Y with an endless number of items that do not begin to make a dent in our deficit/debt.

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I know many would include a #3 (increase taxes), but those numbers don't add up either, plus I believe net net it results in less revenue.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse? And of those countries, how many have flat terrain that is not too far from population centers to blend in, with readily available help? How many of those have such a vast border? I'm not sure who is left.

Again, I'm not opining on the merits, just emphasizing that truly enforcing our border means a ton of $, and nothing else in the world compares to it.

I really do understand your point: $X on Ukraine, but only $Y on the border. I'm just saying that you can fill in X or Y with an endless number of items that do not begin to make a dent in our deficit/debt.

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I know many would include a #3 (increase taxes), but those numbers don't add up either, plus I believe net net it results in less revenue.

---

Thank you! You are correct. The only real way forward is to finance the non-recurring and use the market. Second increase revenues, which could be more use of toll roads and other user fee based programs that could free up revenues or expanding the pool.

New tech and space offer a great opportunity to increase resources. Saw a real interesting presentation on mining asteroids and the minerals available. There is a reason SpaceX is so dead set on reusable rockets, just another 18 wheeler.

Sorry, the answers going forward will be the race for minerals, energy and tech. How we use that to increase revenue will be key

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse?

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I

---

1. We are trillions in debt....I am dead serious about massive cuts to ALL the programs (entitlements, military, ect.)

We can not afford to go on like this forever.

And it does not hurt to cut out wars of choice like ukraine.

2. Most illegal immigrants to America do not even come from Mexico so we don't have millions of people right next door trying to get in...

"The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates"

The majority are coming from Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa....thousands of miles away.

If we can't control our borders against migrant waves coming from continents away then we need to rethink our whole system...including what exactly our military is doing in overseas if we actually need them at home to defend our borders.

Japan has not been overrun by poor Han Chinese or poor South Asians even though it is close to them...because it will NOT allow it.

Our rulers allow mass migration to take place....its a choice.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse?

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I

---

1. We are trillions in debt....I am dead serious about massive cuts to ALL the programs (entitlements, military, ect.)

We can not afford to go on like this forever.

And it does not hurt to cut out wars of choice like ukraine.

2. Most illegal immigrants to America do not even come from Mexico so we don't have millions of people right next door trying to get in...

"The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates"

The majority are coming from Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa....thousands of miles away.

If we can't control our borders against migrant waves coming from continents away then we need to rethink our whole system...including what exactly our military is doing in overseas if we actually need them at home to defend our borders.

Japan has not been overrun by poor Han Chinese or poor South Asians even though it is close to them...because it will NOT allow it.

Our rulers allow mass migration to take place....its a choice.

---

I did not say it was impossible, just very different and far more costly than any other country in the world, and it appears you acknowledge that.

I said next door or "near by," meaning anyone who can make it by foot, which includes Central America and everyone entering Central America or Mexico before coming over. That is the vast majority of illegal immigrants COMING THROUGH THE BORDER.

You are factoring ALL illegal immigrants, which includes vias overstays and others that have nothing to do with a border. Those numbers are enormous, and yes, include folks from all over the world. But we were discussing border enforcement, so not sure why you brought that into the debate unless you were just confused, which happens to all of us of course . . . .

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse?

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I

---

1. We are trillions in debt....I am dead serious about massive cuts to ALL the programs (entitlements, military, ect.)

We can not afford to go on like this forever.

And it does not hurt to cut out wars of choice like ukraine.

2. Most illegal immigrants to America do not even come from Mexico so we don't have millions of people right next door trying to get in...

"The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates"

The majority are coming from Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa....thousands of miles away.

If we can't control our borders against migrant waves coming from continents away then we need to rethink our whole system...including what exactly our military is doing in overseas if we actually need them at home to defend our borders.

Japan has not been overrun by poor Han Chinese or poor South Asians even though it is close to them...because it will NOT allow it.

Our rulers allow mass migration to take place....its a choice.

---

I did not say it was impossible, just very different and far more costly than any other country in the world, and it appears you acknowledge that.

I said next door or "near by," meaning anyone who can make it by foot . . . .

---

Again if the USA can not defend its borders because of cost then we need to not spend 5% of the DOD budget on it….we need to spend ALL of it on the border.

What happens on our southern border will determine what kind of country we will have…or even will even have a country in the future.

It's far more important than the borders of the Donbas.

If what you say is true and we can't afford to police our own border the we need to abandon our 130+ military bases around the world and bring the troops home to defend us here from a 3rd world invasion.

*of course I think you know that we can afford to police our border but like to pretend other wise. This whole "it's just too expensive or too hard" is a bad joke

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse?

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I

---

1. We are trillions in debt....I am dead serious about massive cuts to ALL the programs (entitlements, military, ect.)

We can not afford to go on like this forever.

And it does not hurt to cut out wars of choice like ukraine.

2. Most illegal immigrants to America do not even come from Mexico so we don't have millions of people right next door trying to get in...

"The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates"

The majority are coming from Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa....thousands of miles away.

If we can't control our borders against migrant waves coming from continents away then we need to rethink our whole system...including what exactly our military is doing in overseas if we actually need them at home to defend our borders.

Japan has not been overrun by poor Han Chinese or poor South Asians even though it is close to them...because it will NOT allow it.

Our rulers allow mass migration to take place....its a choice.

---

I did not say it was impossible, just very different and far more costly than any other country in the world, and it appears you acknowledge that.

I said next door or "near by," meaning anyone who can make it by foot . . . .

---

Again if the USA can not defend its borders because of cost then we need to not spend 5% of the DOD budget on it….we need to spend ALL of it on the border.

What happens on our southern border will determine what kind of country we will have…or even will even have a country in the future.

It's far more important than the borders of the Donbas.

If what you say is true and we can't afford to police our own border the we need to abandon our 130+ military bases around the world and bring the troops home to defend us here from a 3rd world invasion.

*of course I think you know that we can afford to police our border but like to pretend other wise. This whole "it's just too expensive or too hard" is a bad joke

---

Please show me where I've come even close to saying that. Im just saying it takes a heckuva lot of money to do it. Far more than other countries and dar more than any politician has acknowledged.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

---

What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

---

You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

---

It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

---

Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

---

1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

---

It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse?

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I

---

1. We are trillions in debt....I am dead serious about massive cuts to ALL the programs (entitlements, military, ect.)

We can not afford to go on like this forever.

And it does not hurt to cut out wars of choice like ukraine.

2. Most illegal immigrants to America do not even come from Mexico so we don't have millions of people right next door trying to get in...

"The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates"

The majority are coming from Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa....thousands of miles away.

If we can't control our borders against migrant waves coming from continents away then we need to rethink our whole system...including what exactly our military is doing in overseas if we actually need them at home to defend our borders.

Japan has not been overrun by poor Han Chinese or poor South Asians even though it is close to them...because it will NOT allow it.

Our rulers allow mass migration to take place....its a choice.

---

I did not say it was impossible, just very different and far more costly than any other country in the world, and it appears you acknowledge that.

I said next door or "near by," meaning anyone who can make it by foot . . . .

---

Again if the USA can not defend its borders because of cost then we need to not spend 5% of the DOD budget on it….we need to spend ALL of it on the border.

What happens on our southern border will determine what kind of country we will have…or even will even have a country in the future.

It's far more important than the borders of the Donbas.

If what you say is true and we can't afford to police our own border the we need to abandon our 130+ military bases around the world and bring the troops home to defend us here from a 3rd world invasion.

*of course I think you know that we can afford to police our border but like to pretend other wise. This whole "it's just too expensive or too hard" is a bad joke

---

Please show me where I've come even close to saying that. Im just saying it takes a heckuva lot of money to do it. Far more than other countries and dar more than any politician has acknowledged.

---

Well in the end we will never know since neither of the two political parties wants to secure the border.

It will always be speculation

Yellen: "We can’t allow Ukraine to lose a battle on the homefront." pic.twitter.com/pXrKvJx2vS

— The_Real_Fly (@The_Real_Fly) November 20, 2023

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

You have not heard of the CIS? YOUR policy is to let Russia have Ukraine, all of it....the largest former SSR not to join the CIS, compelled by force of arms to enter back into defacto alliance with Russia. And you would seriously attempt to argue that Russia is not going to try to re-form the USSR? (sans the ideological BS)

---

The Commonwealth of Independent States - as the name indicates - is not an attempt to recreate the USSR. It's been around since 1991 and was born out of the need to cordinate regional economic, law enforcement, and other interests.

If you're pointing to the CIS as an attempt to recreate the USSR, you really have no business commenting on geopolitics.

---

LOL. Dear God the idiots have arrived.

You would be correct to say that CIS does not equal USSR, but to suggest that CIS is not an attempt by Moscow to regain hegemony over former SSR republics is....well, it's laughable.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

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What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

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But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

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Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

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The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

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I agree that we are not doing what we should on the border. Been quite loud about that, taking it further than most, describing it as execution of policy flatly at odds with both law and will of the people.

What I have not done is erect a false dilemma that failing to do the necessary on the border obligates us to fail to do the necessary elsewhere. Reality is, if we shut down Ukraine aid tomorrow, nothing will change on the border. And no money would be saved. It'd get spent somewhere else.

Not only can we execute effective policy in both areas, we should. And if we elect the right POTUS, we will.

Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

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We are almost $34 TRILLION in debt. This does not include unfunded liabilities. When you include that, what is owed is 4x that amount.

The budget deficit in 2023 is $2 TRILLION.

By 2051, the GAO's own estimates have our national debt service costs at 25% GDP.

By 2096, it reaches 48% of GDP.

This is exclusive of any higher, longer, or higher for longer actions by the federal reserve.

There's nothing "easy" about one single cent .gov spends going forward.

The United States is currently on a trajectory for national bankruptcy. Even if we could simply make habitual overspenders like whiterock disappear from the national conversation, it may simply be too late for a course correction.

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That is your most compelling argument. So stick to it and quit making a long list of bad foreign policy arguments that the fate of Ukraine does not matter. Seriously. Most policy critics are really inspired mostly by (valid) budget concerns but turn instead to weak, ignorant, illogical policy analysis.

What's going on in Ukraine is equally serious as the southern border. Different threats, for sure. One, as done now, creates serious domestic problems that will take years/decades to fix; the other, if done as critics recommend, drastically increase the odds of US troops in direct conflict with nuclear powers. Reality is, fixing one does nothing to affect the other. We simply have to both. We easily can, and should.

whiterock said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

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We are almost $34 TRILLION in debt. This does not include unfunded liabilities. When you include that, what is owed is 4x that amount.

The budget deficit in 2023 is $2 TRILLION.

By 2051, the GAO's own estimates have our national debt service costs at 25% GDP.

By 2096, it reaches 48% of GDP.

This is exclusive of any higher, longer, or higher for longer actions by the federal reserve.

There's nothing "easy" about one single cent .gov spends going forward.

The United States is currently on a trajectory for national bankruptcy. Even if we could simplymake habitual overspenders like whiterock disappear from the national conversation, it may simply be too late for a course correction.

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That is your most compelling argument. So stick to it and quit making a long list of bad foreign policy arguments that the fate of Ukraine does not matter. Seriously. Most policy critics are really inspired mostly by (valid) budget concerns but turn instead to weak, ignorant, illogical policy analysis.

What's going on in Ukraine is equally serious as the southern border. Different threats, for sure. One, as done now, creates serious domestic problems that will take years/decades to fix; the other, if done as critics recommend, drastically increase the odds of US troops in direct conflict with nuclear powers. Reality is, fixing one does nothing to affect the other. We simply have to both. We easily can, and should.

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You need to understand the cost and you need to understand that DC WANTS this war to go on for a long time.

This war is taking forever. We haven't haven't learned a damn thing about forever wars.

The price tag will be multi trillions.

whiterock said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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You have not heard of the CIS? YOUR policy is to let Russia have Ukraine, all of it....the largest former SSR not to join the CIS, compelled by force of arms to enter back into defacto alliance with Russia. And you would seriously attempt to argue that Russia is not going to try to re-form the USSR? (sans the ideological BS)

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The Commonwealth of Independent States - as the name indicates - is not an attempt to recreate the USSR. It's been around since 1991 and was born out of the need to cordinate regional economic, law enforcement, and other interests.

If you're pointing to the CIS as an attempt to recreate the USSR, you really have no business commenting on geopolitics.

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LOL. Dear God the idiots have arrived.

You would be correct to say that CIS does not equal USSR, but to suggest that CIS is not an attempt by Moscow to regain hegemony over former SSR republics is....well, it's laughable.

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Just to be clear is any sort of economic or military alliance by Russians an attempt to re-create the USSR?

I mean NATO is a military alliance and basically a economic alliance including most of North America and almost all of Europe....is that some kind of Neo-USSR as well? Of course not

Lets be honest any Nation that wants to be secure will attempt to build some kind of alliance network with other nations.

The fact that Russia & China can only rally a losers club of Belarus, Kazakhstan, Myanmar, N. Korea, Iran, etc. is proof of how bad they are at doing that....but not proof that they are trying to create some kind of new multi-national spanning empire.

There is also some argument about if the CIS is even a real economic and military alliance:

"people incorrectly assumed that the USSR would be replaced by the Commonwealth of Independent States.
On Dec. 21, 1991, representatives of 11 former Soviet Republics met and proclaimed that the USSR was dissolved and that their republics were sovereign and independent. When Mikhail Gorbachev resigned on Dec. 26, 1991, he had already been a man without a country for five days.
At their Dec. 21 meeting, the independent republics also founded the Commonwealth of Independent States.
Most western observers seemed more impressed by the founding of the CIS, whatever it was, than they were in the member nations' declarations that they were fully sovereign and independent.
The CIS is not a state and has no supranational powers. It is not a union like the United States or the USSR. It is not a military alliance like NATO. It is not an economic union like the European Union. It is not a production and marketing cartel like the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. It is not a free-trade zone like the North American Free Trade Agreement.
The CIS is similar in some ways to the Organization of American States or the Organization of African Unity.
Most significantly for stamp collectors, the CIS has never issued a single postage stamp or delivered a single piece of mail."


The CIS is a very weak organization. Most of the independent States within it would resist the organization being turned into a more centrally controlled Union.

And of course we are leaving out that the USSR had an ideological reason to exist....Communism.

That Marxist Empire is long gone.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Some Neo-Cons Slowly Coming To Grips With Reality In Ukraine

"The United States political class is locked into a self-defeating delusion that Russia is still a communist state bent on World Domination. Any politician who suggests the alternative, i.e. that we need to deal with Russia as an equal and that we should stop treating Putin and his government as an enemy, will be tarred immediately as a Putin apologist and ostracized. Here is the hard truth the political elite in both parties are using Russia as an excuse to engage in the same practices that were the cornerstone of Soviet policies during the Cold War. It is the United States that is locking up political dissidents. It is the United States Government that is collaborating with social media companies to quash dissent against the ruling class.

It is not the fault of Russia that black kids in inner-city schools are "graduating" from high school without being able to read or do algebra. It is not Russia's fault that America's southern border is wide open and being swarmed by millions of illegal migrants. It is not Russia's fault that many of America's largest cities are ravaged with narcotics addiction, violence and criminal activity. Look in the mirror America. Clean up your act."

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What do those things have to do with providing aide to Ukraine? Or, Israel?

All those things need to be done, but attaching some false correlation between those issues and providing support to Ukraine….

---

But those domestic issues are way way more important to the continued prosperity and success of the USA than ukriane/Israel

Most Americans don't really care much about what happens to these client states on the other side of the world.

Americans do care about their lives, their families, their communities, their nation.

While DC seems to ONLY care about client states in the other side of the world

---

Geez, the cause/effect fallacies.... There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the policy choice made at the border to admit all comers. There is no connection between aid to Ukraine and the new green deal wrecking the economy. etc..... A change in policy in one of those areas has no effect whatsoever in any of the others.


We could, in fact, easily defend the border and restore market function to the economy without touching a penny of Ukraine aid, which is only about 5% of the defense budget.

---

The point remains that to our ruling class funding the Ukraine proxy war is a priority...while defending our borders is not.

I doubt it would take 5% of our defense budget to secure our own borders.

At the very least that should trouble you...and make you doubt that our leaders care about their own citizens.

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You are 100% correct that defending our borders is not a priority for either party.

If you mean truly secure the border - total real fencing, staffing, and surveillance, it would cost far more than 5% of the defense budget, and much of the expense would be reoccurring.

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It would be interesting to find out.

[FY 2023 DEFENSE FUNDING LEVELS: Within this topline, the legislation authorizes $816.7 billion for the Department of Defense (DOD)]

5% of that would be $40 billion dollars

[Trump claimed that the wall would cost only $12 billion, a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) internal report in February put the cost at $21.6 billion]

So lets go with the higher number and say a border wall would cost $22 billion. Along with the $25 billion we already spend yearly on U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that should be more than enough.

Most Americans would rather spend 5% of our DOD budget on our own security than fighting proxy wars on the other side of the globe.

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Actually it would be far more than $21.6 billion. Trumps estimate $8 - 12 billion during his campaign, but then actually spent $11 billion for a tiny fraction of a wall.

Regardless, the annual spend would increase significantly b/c a border wall has proven insufficient by itself. We would need to greatly increase manpower and equipment for security and surveillance. Not to mention wall maintenance and repair.

I am not passing judgment on where I would allocate. Just making the point true border enforcement would cost more near term and far more long term.

And I agree with Whiterock, I don't see what border enforcement has to do with Ukraine. We all could pick out literally 10,000 spending items we'd replace with border enforcement or something else. I'd start with catfish research subsidies . . . .

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1. Its amazing that we are talking about $40 billion (possible 5% budget of DOD) and the normal $25 billion for ICE and Border/Customs....but we are still told we can't possibility secure the border even if we spend $75 billion a year.

This is gaslighting of the highest order.

Somehow other nations are able to secure their borders for a fraction of that cost.


2. Pointing out ruling class priorities is always useful. They are willing to fund $2.3 trillion dollar occupations of Afghanistan or hundreds of billions on the Ukraine proxy war....but not on our actual vital interests on the border.

Its very interesting how "invade the world/invite the world" really is the policy of D.C. establishment and not just a funny throw away line.

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It's apples and oranges between us and other countries. How many other countries have tens of millions of next door/near by neighbors who will do almost anything to get into their country en masse?

Unless you advocate significantly cutting (1) entitlements AND (2) military spending, you are not truly serious about cutting the debt/deficit. The numbers do not add up. I

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1. We are trillions in debt....I am dead serious about massive cuts to ALL the programs (entitlements, military, ect.)

We can not afford to go on like this forever.

And it does not hurt to cut out wars of choice like ukraine.

2. Most illegal immigrants to America do not even come from Mexico so we don't have millions of people right next door trying to get in...

"The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates"

The majority are coming from Central America, South America, Asia, and Africa....thousands of miles away.

If we can't control our borders against migrant waves coming from continents away then we need to rethink our whole system...including what exactly our military is doing in overseas if we actually need them at home to defend our borders.

Japan has not been overrun by poor Han Chinese or poor South Asians even though it is close to them...because it will NOT allow it.

Our rulers allow mass migration to take place....its a choice.

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I did not say it was impossible, just very different and far more costly than any other country in the world, and it appears you acknowledge that.

I said next door or "near by," meaning anyone who can make it by foot . . . .

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Again if the USA can not defend its borders because of cost then we need to not spend 5% of the DOD budget on it….we need to spend ALL of it on the border.

What happens on our southern border will determine what kind of country we will have…or even will even have a country in the future.

It's far more important than the borders of the Donbas.

If what you say is true and we can't afford to police our own border the we need to abandon our 130+ military bases around the world and bring the troops home to defend us here from a 3rd world invasion.

*of course I think you know that we can afford to police our border but like to pretend other wise. This whole "it's just too expensive or too hard" is a bad joke

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Please show me where I've come even close to saying that. Im just saying it takes a heckuva lot of money to do it. Far more than other countries and dar more than any politician has acknowledged.

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Well in the end we will never know since neither of the two political parties wants to secure the border.

It will always be speculation

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For sure

This is how US corporate media has functioned forever. At the start of every new war, their job is to propagandize the public for the US Security state to support it.

Once all their promises and vows prove false, they pretend it never happened and just move on to the next war: https://t.co/zqp9DxYfL6

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) November 21, 2023

The deal now is the same as it has always been. Donetsk, Lugansk, and Crimea are now part of Russia.

Kiev acknowledges this territorial reality and the Ukrainian military stops its attacks on the civilian population there.

Kiev abandons its goal of joining NATO and remains a neutral state like Switzerland has been historically.

Plus or minus some added religious freedom language in there that Russia demands to protect Christians in Ukraine.

Frankly Kiev would have been better off if they had simply respected Minsk II.

Quote:

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So stick to it and quit making a long list of bad foreign policy arguments that the fate of Ukraine does not matter. Seriously.

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The fate of a neo-fascist government that has cancelled elections, is at war against free speech, and is persecuting Christians within its borders does not matter. Would I have preferred if Victoria Nuland had not engineered a coup there and sent a half million Ukrainians to a needless death? Absolutely. But she's one of your tribe, not mine.

Realitybites said:

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The deal now is the same as it has always been. Donetsk, Lugansk, and Crimea are now part of Russia.

Kiev acknowledges this territorial reality and the Ukrainian military stops its attacks on the civilian population there.

Kiev abandons its goal of joining NATO and remains a neutral state like Switzerland has been historically.

Plus or minus some added religious freedom language in there that Russia demands to protect Christians in Ukraine.

Frankly Kiev would have been better off if they had simply respected Minsk II.

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Uh, Ukraine is the most Christian country in Europe.

But, setting that aside, you think Ukraine should give up a significant part of the country and the right to align with the west, get nothing in return, and then just hope Russia never invades again despite its longstanding publicly stated intentions to take it over?