sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

---

White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

---

a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

---

So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

---

Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

---

I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

---

the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

---

Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

---

And as another poster rightly stated, NATO will be stronger after this war.

---

NATO was strong before the war. Of course it would be strong after it. It's a military alliance of of 30 nations and 900 million people…and some of those are the most economically powerful countries on earth.

Same thing can't be said for Ukraine.

Again NATO does not need Ukraine….so why is the U.S. ruling class messing around in the country and helping to sponsor coups and proxy wars?

What the purpose of this interference in a country right on Russia's door step?

---

We supply military aid to Ukraine. And we are the one who is interfering in.

---

What was Washington doing in Ukraine before the invasion of Feb. 2022?





https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

---

You're really going back to cookie-gate again . . . .????
.

---

lol Nuland said she and the U.S. government gave away $5 billion dollars to various groups in Ukraine (in the years before the coup/revolution)

You can bet they were buying more than cookies over there.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1404/21/ampr.01.html

---

You must not have read far enough to get to this part:

NULAND: I didn't hear Mr. Nikonov speaking. The United States has invested some $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union..

---

Oh I read it.

You think Nuland and the Feds spend $5 billion on Ukraine because they are just such generous folks? Or so they could use non-accountable NGOs and shady activist groups to sponsor a color revolution.

Which is more responsible given the facts?

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

---

White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

---

a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

---

So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

---

Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

---

I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

---

the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

---

Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

---

And as another poster rightly stated, NATO will be stronger after this war.

---

NATO was strong before the war. Of course it would be strong after it. It's a military alliance of of 30 nations and 900 million people…and some of those are the most economically powerful countries on earth.

Same thing can't be said for Ukraine.

Again NATO does not need Ukraine….so why is the U.S. ruling class messing around in the country and helping to sponsor coups and proxy wars?

What the purpose of this interference in a country right on Russia's door step?

---

We supply military aid to Ukraine. And we are the one who is interfering in.

---

What was Washington doing in Ukraine before the invasion of Feb. 2022?





https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

---

You're really going back to cookie-gate again . . . .????
.

---

lol Nuland said she and the U.S. government gave away $5 billion dollars to various groups in Ukraine (in the years before the coup/revolution)

You can bet they were buying more than cookies over there.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1404/21/ampr.01.html

---

You must not have read far enough to get to this part:

NULAND: I didn't hear Mr. Nikonov speaking. The United States has invested some $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union..

---

Oh I read it.

You think Nuland and the Feds spend $5 billion on Ukraine because they are just such generous folks? Or so they could use non-accountable NGOs and shady activist groups to sponsor a color revolution.

Which is more responsible given the facts?

---

What's more responsible is to acknowledge we give that and far more aid to numerous countries around the world. And that aid started in 1991 and was given to multiple leaders of all political persuasions, including the one y'all somehow claim we forced out in a coup.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

---

White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

---

a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

---

So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

---

Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

---

I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

---

the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

---

Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

---

And as another poster rightly stated, NATO will be stronger after this war.

---

NATO was strong before the war. Of course it would be strong after it. It's a military alliance of of 30 nations and 900 million people…and some of those are the most economically powerful countries on earth.

Same thing can't be said for Ukraine.

Again NATO does not need Ukraine….so why is the U.S. ruling class messing around in the country and helping to sponsor coups and proxy wars?

What the purpose of this interference in a country right on Russia's door step?

---

We supply military aid to Ukraine. And we are the one who is interfering in.

---

What was Washington doing in Ukraine before the invasion of Feb. 2022?





https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

---

You're really going back to cookie-gate again . . . .????
.

---

lol Nuland said she and the U.S. government gave away $5 billion dollars to various groups in Ukraine (in the years before the coup/revolution)

You can bet they were buying more than cookies over there.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1404/21/ampr.01.html

---

You must not have read far enough to get to this part:

NULAND: I didn't hear Mr. Nikonov speaking. The United States has invested some $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union..

---

Oh I read it.

You think Nuland and the Feds spend $5 billion on Ukraine because they are just such generous folks? Or so they could use non-accountable NGOs and shady activist groups to sponsor a color revolution.

Which is more responsible given the facts?

---

we give that and far more aid to numerous countries around the world. And that aid started in 1991 and was given….

---

You don't think that DC is using that tax money in other counties to peddle influence and affect politics there?

We are just giving our "foreign aid" in the billions because the State Department loves 3rd world peoples?

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

---

White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

---

a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

---

So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

---

Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

---

I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

---

the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

---

Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

---

And as another poster rightly stated, NATO will be stronger after this war.

---

NATO was strong before the war. Of course it would be strong after it. It's a military alliance of of 30 nations and 900 million people…and some of those are the most economically powerful countries on earth.

Same thing can't be said for Ukraine.

Again NATO does not need Ukraine….so why is the U.S. ruling class messing around in the country and helping to sponsor coups and proxy wars?

What the purpose of this interference in a country right on Russia's door step?

---

We supply military aid to Ukraine. And we are the one who is interfering in.

---

What was Washington doing in Ukraine before the invasion of Feb. 2022?





https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

---

You're really going back to cookie-gate again . . . .????
.

---

lol Nuland said she and the U.S. government gave away $5 billion dollars to various groups in Ukraine (in the years before the coup/revolution)

You can bet they were buying more than cookies over there.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1404/21/ampr.01.html

---

You must not have read far enough to get to this part:

NULAND: I didn't hear Mr. Nikonov speaking. The United States has invested some $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union..

---

Oh I read it.

You think Nuland and the Feds spend $5 billion on Ukraine because they are just such generous folks? Or so they could use non-accountable NGOs and shady activist groups to sponsor a color revolution.

Which is more responsible given the facts?

---

we give that and far more aid to numerous countries around the world. And that aid started in 1991 and was given….

---

You don't think that DC is using that tax money in other counties to peddle influence and affect politics there?

We are just giving our "foreign aid" in the billions because the State Department loves 3rd world peoples?

---

This is not difficult. Yes, we provide aid to influence mostly because we think it will in some way help us, typically economically or national security. We are no different than most other countries in that regard.

---

Glad you admit it.

Now ask why we we are trying to influence elections in Ukraine and funding a proxy war against Russia…in a country right on Russias door step.

And how we would respond if Russia was doing that in Canada.

Or China was doing that in Mexico

Quote:

---

Now ask why we we are trying to influence elections in Ukraine and funding a proxy war against Russia…in a country right on Russias door step.

And how we would respond if Russia was doing that in Canada.

Or China was doing that in Mexico

---

The difference is China and Russia are autocratic totalitarian regimes that are a threat to western style democracy, and free societies. The U.S. is the only free country with the ability to lead the rest of the free world in checking autocractic totalitarian ambition. Aid to Ukraine is a small price to pay, especially in terms of our GDP. Aid to Ukraine is every bit as justifiable as giving aid to Israel, which is hardly the icon of integrity and probity.

Eventually, if unchecked, they'll get around to Mexico. Don't think that China isn't already engaged through supplying the heroin trade for the purpose of destablilzing the U. S.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

---

White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

---

a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

---

So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

---

Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

---

I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

---

the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

---

Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

---

And as another poster rightly stated, NATO will be stronger after this war.

---

NATO was strong before the war. Of course it would be strong after it. It's a military alliance of of 30 nations and 900 million people…and some of those are the most economically powerful countries on earth.

Same thing can't be said for Ukraine.

Again NATO does not need Ukraine….so why is the U.S. ruling class messing around in the country and helping to sponsor coups and proxy wars?

What the purpose of this interference in a country right on Russia's door step?

---

We supply military aid to Ukraine. And we are the one who is interfering in.

---

What was Washington doing in Ukraine before the invasion of Feb. 2022?





https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

---

You're really going back to cookie-gate again . . . .????
.

---

lol Nuland said she and the U.S. government gave away $5 billion dollars to various groups in Ukraine (in the years before the coup/revolution)

You can bet they were buying more than cookies over there.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1404/21/ampr.01.html

---

You must not have read far enough to get to this part:

NULAND: I didn't hear Mr. Nikonov speaking. The United States has invested some $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union..

---

Oh I read it.

You think Nuland and the Feds spend $5 billion on Ukraine because they are just such generous folks? Or so they could use non-accountable NGOs and shady activist groups to sponsor a color revolution.

Which is more responsible given the facts?

---

we give that and far more aid to numerous countries around the world. And that aid started in 1991 and was given….

---

You don't think that DC is using that tax money in other counties to peddle influence and affect politics there?

We are just giving our "foreign aid" in the billions because the State Department loves 3rd world peoples?

---

This is not difficult. Yes, we provide aid to influence mostly because we think it will in some way help us, typically economically or national security. We are no different than most other countries in that regard.

---

Glad you admit it.

Now ask why we we are trying to influence elections in Ukraine and funding a proxy war against Russia…in a country right on Russias door step.

And how we would respond if Russia was doing that in Canada.

Or China was doing that in Mexico

---

Russia tries to influence OUR elections.

---

Oh I thought we were against conspiracy theories…the russkies put Trump in office huh?

And if your looking for a foreign nation the has been melding in US elections for decades….its a small ethno state in the middle east.

But you don't have problems with Israel doing that do you?


Oh and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Arab states do as well.

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

---

White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

---

a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

---

So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

---

Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

---

I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

---

the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

---

Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

---

And as another poster rightly stated, NATO will be stronger after this war.

---

NATO was strong before the war. Of course it would be strong after it. It's a military alliance of of 30 nations and 900 million people…and some of those are the most economically powerful countries on earth.

Same thing can't be said for Ukraine.

Again NATO does not need Ukraine….so why is the U.S. ruling class messing around in the country and helping to sponsor coups and proxy wars?

What the purpose of this interference in a country right on Russia's door step?

---

We supply military aid to Ukraine. And we are the one who is interfering in.

---

What was Washington doing in Ukraine before the invasion of Feb. 2022?





https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

---

You're really going back to cookie-gate again . . . .????
.

---

lol Nuland said she and the U.S. government gave away $5 billion dollars to various groups in Ukraine (in the years before the coup/revolution)

You can bet they were buying more than cookies over there.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1404/21/ampr.01.html

---

You must not have read far enough to get to this part:

NULAND: I didn't hear Mr. Nikonov speaking. The United States has invested some $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union..

---

Oh I read it.

You think Nuland and the Feds spend $5 billion on Ukraine because they are just such generous folks? Or so they could use non-accountable NGOs and shady activist groups to sponsor a color revolution.

Which is more responsible given the facts?

---

we give that and far more aid to numerous countries around the world. And that aid started in 1991 and was given….

---

You don't think that DC is using that tax money in other counties to peddle influence and affect politics there?

We are just giving our "foreign aid" in the billions because the State Department loves 3rd world peoples?

---

This is not difficult. Yes, we provide aid to influence mostly because we think it will in some way help us, typically economically or national security. We are no different than most other countries in that regard.

---

Glad you admit it.

Now ask why we we are trying to influence elections in Ukraine and funding a proxy war against Russia…in a country right on Russias door step.

And how we would respond if Russia was doing that in Canada.

Or China was doing that in Mexico

---

well, Russia is doing it in Canada and China is doing it in Mexico….so here we are.

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Also, would their reputation be any better had we let Russia take over Ukraine? If so, how?

---

Russia had zero interest in taking over Ukraine until our State Department orchestrated a color revolution in Kiev, and the Ukrainian Armed Forces began attacking the breakaway republics that had been denied democratic representation under the new regeime.
Zero interest? You mean like paying (or intimidating, or both) a pro-Russian Ukrainian president to veto the EU legislation he'd made campaign promises to support (and did, until the last bloody minute)? J
You're just flatly rewriting history to give your entire argument a (false) premise.

Quote:

---

You truly believe the world will move away from the dollar and that it will be due to the Ukraine effort?

---

Of course. It's already happening. Our willingness to weaponize the dollar in furtherance of foreign policy has been moving the world in this direction for awhile, but simply freezing Russian assets and cutting them off from SWIFT was the straw that broke the camels back.
Geez, dude. Despite all the yacking and predictions, nobody has left the dollar. Nobody (that matters) will. Because nobody CAN.. There is no better substitute. There is not even a comparable substitute. All other options suck worse. You are really way out of your depth here.

Quote:

---

Do you think Putin would have been "nicer" and more pro-U.S. had he taken over Ukraine?

---

Putin is about as pro-western a leader as you're going to get in Russia. He's fluent in German, he's traveled to the west, he understands the deficiencies of the USSR on a firsthand basis.
Obviously! That's why he's gone to war to stop a neighbor from turning to the west while signing massive treaties of strategic cooperation with China. What have you been drinking?

---

I mean, really, dude. The remedy for recto-cranial inversion is not to stick both shoulders in.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

sombear was correct. you are not even trying to understand anything about geopolitics or US spheres of interests or the situation in Ukraine. You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting the memes of others. ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine. See link (not that you will even try to understand it.) They had a number of excellent publications on the same day (14 December). It's all there if you want to understand, but first you have to try.

Allowing Putin to succeed with his maximalist aims in Ukraine (subsuming it back into Russian polity) would be the most costly and dangerous outcome of all. Yet, that is exactly what you are arguing for = a return to dangerous and frightfully expensive Cold War positioning with Russia.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

ISW is basically a neocon thinktank that has been parroting the John McCain view of the world since the start of this conflict.

Hardly an objective view.

Realitybites said:

---

ISW is basically a neocon thinktank that has been parroting the John McCain view of the world since the start of this conflict.

Hardly an objective view.

---

Says the person who vomits up RU propaganda on here.

ISW has been quite correct and back it up over and over again.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/12/russian-forces-take-heavily-fortified-town-maryinka-biggest/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=russian-forces-take-heavily-fortified-town-maryinka-biggest

"The year is ending on an upbeat note for the Russian Federation troops that have just conquered the heavily fortified town of Maryinka, in the outskirts of Donetsk city.This comes after Ukraine launched a failed counteroffensive aimed at retaking land in the country's south and east, including Bakhmut.This is a major development, the biggest since Moscow troops regained the initiative, and also the greatest achievement since they gained control of Avdiivka (Bakhmut) in May.By taking Maryinka, the Russians have significantly pushed back the Ukrainian artillery. For years, Kiev used Maryinka has a key launching pad for drone and artillery strikes against civilians in Donetsk."

Realitybites said:

---

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/12/russian-forces-take-heavily-fortified-town-maryinka-biggest/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=russian-forces-take-heavily-fortified-town-maryinka-biggest

"The year is ending on an upbeat note for the Russian Federation troops that have just conquered the heavily fortified town of Maryinka, in the outskirts of Donetsk city.This comes after Ukraine launched a failed counteroffensive aimed at retaking land in the country's south and east, including Bakhmut.This is a major development, the biggest since Moscow troops regained the initiative, and also the greatest achievement since they gained control of Avdiivka (Bakhmut) in May.By taking Maryinka, the Russians have significantly pushed back the Ukrainian artillery. For years, Kiev used Maryinka has a key launching pad for drone and artillery strikes against civilians in Donetsk."

---

do you even actually read the shlt you post? Like actually read and understand it?

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

Realitybites said:

---

ISW is basically a neocon thinktank that has been parroting the John McCain view of the world since the start of this conflict.

Hardly an objective view.

---

Victoria Nuland is married to Robert Kagan. His brother is married to the girl that runs that think thank.

I mean it's literally a family run racket out of DC with deep connections to the U.S. alphabet soup orgs.


These guys on here love propaganda…they just like to come out of DC approved mouth pieces and not out of Moscow….but it's still State run Agitprop

[ISW was founded in response to the stagnation of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, with core funding provided by a group of defense contractors; it continues to be supported by defense contractors as well as private donations…

ISW criticized both the Obama and Trump administration policies on the Syrian conflict, advocating a more hawkish approach…Kagan called for arms and equipment to be supplied to "moderate" rebels…In 2018, ISW analyst Jennifer Cafarella published an article calling for the use of offensive military force against the Assad government.]

The crew never met a war they did not fall in love with.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

Tell us, exactly, how Russian victory in Ukraine benefits the USA.
Tell us, exactly, what are the ramifications of reintegration of Ukraine into the Russian state.
Tell us, exactly, how you intend to deal with the consequences of the policy you recommend.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

---

adding a "no true Scotsman" fallacy weakens an already threadbare position.

Deal with the facts on the ground. How does letting Russia subsume 40m people and 233k square miles of resource rich territory into its polity have "no impact" on the adjacent alliance to which we have sworn to defend with nuclear exchange if necessary? How does moving Russian strategic and conventional weapons systems 600mi closer to Nato capitals (and US military bases) make the American people safer? How will such reduce the need for additional military spending?

Fact is, you have no policy. You are preemptorily defining away every extant problem with a waive of a hand...."it doesn't matter....we are wasting money to enrich the political caste...." Hint: your policy will guarantee vastly expanded risks and military expenditure, along with even greater feeding at the trough of expanded budgets. And you will lambaste it all as latent imperium, just like you are now, the only difference being that your kids and grandkids will be conducting new-era Reforger exercises in Romania and Poland to deter Russian armies in Ukraine.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

ISW is basically a neocon thinktank that has been parroting the John McCain view of the world since the start of this conflict.

Hardly an objective view.

---

Victoria Nuland is married to Robert Kagan. His brother is married to the girl that runs that think thank.

I mean it's literally a family run racket out of DC with deep connections to the U.S. alphabet soup orgs.


These guys on here love propaganda…they just like to come out of DC approved mouth pieces and not out of Moscow….but it's still State run Agitprop

[ISW was founded in response to the stagnation of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, with core funding provided by a group of defense contractors; it continues to be supported by defense contractors as well as private donations…

ISW criticized both the Obama and Trump administration policies on the Syrian conflict, advocating a more hawkish approach…Kagan called for arms and equipment to be supplied to "moderate" rebels…In 2018, ISW analyst Jennifer Cafarella published an article calling for the use of offensive military force against the Assad government.]

The crew never met a war they did not fall in love with.

---

Irrelevant. ISW didn't start the war. Appeasement emboldens Putin, destabilizes world order and our national security.

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

---

A huge stategic mistake. No Americans are fighting there, except for volunteers. Check Putin now, or you very well may see Americans defending Nato from Putin's next venture. With your attitude the Soviet Union would have run over the EU. Historically, conservatives stand up to aggressive tyrants. Liberals unsuccessfully try to appease them.

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

---

A huge stategic mistake. No Americans are fighting there, except for volunteers. Check Putin now, or you very well may see Americans defending Nato from Putin's next venture.

---

For now…but look up a little conflict called Vietnam.

You never know how these kinds of conflicts can spiral.

And again…..if Putin attacks a NATO country he would get whipped. Stop using that as a scare tactic

Russia is no match for NATO






p.s

those numbers do not even really reflect the massive imbalance of power that NATO counties have or could quickly develop over Russia.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

---

adding a "no true Scotsman" fallacy weakens an already threadbare position.

Deal with the facts on the ground. How does letting Russia subsume 40m people and 233k square miles of resource rich territory into its polity have "no impact" on the adjacent alliance to which we have sworn to defend with nuclear exchange if necessary? How does moving Russian strategic and conventional weapons systems 600mi closer to Nato capitals (and US military bases) make the American people safer? How will such reduce the need for additional military spending?

Fact is, you have no policy. You are preemptorily defining away every extant problem with a waive of a hand...."it doesn't matter....we are wasting money to enrich the political caste...." Hint: your policy will guarantee vastly expanded risks and military expenditure, along with even greater feeding at the trough of expanded budgets. And you will lambaste it all as latent imperium, just like you are now, the only difference being that your kids and grandkids will be conducting new-era Reforger exercises in Romania and Poland to deter Russian armies in Ukraine.

---

Those are just a few of the questions we should have asked before starting an unwinnable proxy war against Russia. Too late now.

---

Excuse my interuption, but we didn't "start an unwinnable proxy war against Russia." An ambitious Putin started it. I think there is plenty of fault on Biden's part in how this has been conducted, but this war is very winnable. Putin is mired down and has failed in his primary objective due to our timid and measured support for Ukraine - all for a nominal amount of cost in terms of GDP. If we gave them the weapons they needed and on time, Ukraine would be in a much better position than now, and Russia might even have been driven out of Ukraine, given the state of their military at the time. That's Biden's fault.

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

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I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

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You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

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Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

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Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

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And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

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A huge stategic mistake. No Americans are fighting there, except for volunteers. Check Putin now, or you very well may see Americans defending Nato from Putin's next venture.

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For now…but look up a little conflict called Vietnam.

You never know how these kinds of conflicts can spiral.

And again…..if Putin attacks a NATO country he would get whipped. Stop using that as a scare tactic

Russia is no match for NATO






p.s

those numbers do not even really reflect the massive imbalance of power that NATO counties have or could quickly develop over Russia.

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You've proved my point. Putin is no match right now for Nato. That's why we should stop him in his tracks now. This isn't Viet Nam, which we could have and should have won, but for politics. This is more analogous to Hilter moving into Chekhoslovakia under the same pretenses. The appeasement crowd said the same things you're saying - Hitler doesn't have the military capability, or resources to go further, or to move against other European countries. Now Putin is ramping up his war footing domestically. Let Putin succeed here, and you're more likely to see Nato have to exercise its imbalance of power. Two years from now, Putin will have a much larger and more capbable military.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

---

adding a "no true Scotsman" fallacy weakens an already threadbare position.

Deal with the facts on the ground. How does letting Russia subsume 40m people and 233k square miles of resource rich territory into its polity have "no impact" on the adjacent alliance to which we have sworn to defend with nuclear exchange if necessary? How does moving Russian strategic and conventional weapons systems 600mi closer to Nato capitals (and US military bases) make the American people safer? How will such reduce the need for additional military spending?

Fact is, you have no policy. You are preemptorily defining away every extant problem with a waive of a hand...."it doesn't matter....we are wasting money to enrich the political caste...." Hint: your policy will guarantee vastly expanded risks and military expenditure, along with even greater feeding at the trough of expanded budgets. And you will lambaste it all as latent imperium, just like you are now, the only difference being that your kids and grandkids will be conducting new-era Reforger exercises in Romania and Poland to deter Russian armies in Ukraine.

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Those are just a few of the questions we should have asked before starting an unwinnable proxy war against Russia. Too late now.

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Boy, that's a lot of fallacies to load up into a single sentence. You got your money's worth in law school!

1) we did not start a war. Russia did.
2) no questions went unasked before we acted. All that stuff is wargamed( and budgeted) decades in advance.
3) the war in one sense has already been won. (destruction of half the Russian military for 5% of our DOD budget).
4) the war is very winnable (Russian retreat from Crimea and/or Donbas). We just have to decide to do so.

That's just for starters.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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trey3216 said:

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Your "Western Guilt" sounds exactly like the ultra-progressives "White Guilt". Go far enough one way and you're the exact same person you bltch about on the other side.

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White guilt is woke nonsense.

Banks and mega corporations bankrolling politicians to benefit themselves is a FACT.

Putin got the 'Lord of War/Merchant of Death' Viktor Bout released in exchange for petty dope fiend basketball player Brittney Griner, We're not serious people my guy. Its embarrassing.

There's a reason why DC won't do anything about mass illegal immigration, healthcare costs, inflation and any of the other insane bs screwing the middle class. It has everything to do with who benefits financially from these problems. How can America help Ukraine when we can't even stop millions of illegals from crossing the border, can't stop fentanyl, lost in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and so on?

Ukraine is exhausting its young combatants and their injuries will be chronic/long lasting. Further they loses their labor productivity. They'll have a country of old men, also wounded, that have no positive economic yield. Taxes cant cover this cost.

Anybody who is actually familiar with the defense industry, listens to every earnings call and etc, knew the Ukraine war was gonna have a short shelf life and asymmetrical advantage to Russia once they got air cover and their defense industry ramped up.

Economics of war isn't new.

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a reminder what military aid to ukraine prevents:

if kyiv fell, projected military bases on the border with nato pic.twitter.com/Iz6sZER61i

— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) December 19, 2023

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So this war was always about getting NATO military bases closer to Russia?

Good to see people are dropping the charade that the war in Ukraine was being conducted by the US leadership to "save democracy".

About as ludicrous as Putin's "we are going into Ukraine to fight Nazis"

It was and is all about geo-strategic military power plays

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Ironic you admit that quietly about fighting Nazis now considering earlier in this war you were making comments affirming how Russia was fighting real Nazis.

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I affirmed there were and are neo-Nazis fighting with the Ukrainian forces.

I didn't try to deny that inconvenient fact (like you did)

It's also just obvious that Putin does not care anymore about fighting against nazism than our ruling class cares about fighting for democracy….both are excuses

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the excuses for what? What? What is Putin fighting for? Say it.

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Keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Keep the Black Sea fleet at their current base.

What are we fighting for again? Why are we wasting billions?

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But Ukraine had not even applied for Nato partner status, much less Nato membership.
But the Russian fleet WAS safe & secure at Sevastopol when all of this started in 2014 (or even 2022).
But WE are not fighting.
Ukrainians are fighting for their own, internationally recognized sovereign territory.

We are not wasting billions. We are destroying the Russian war machine, literally chewing up 70-80 years of munitions and weaponry, to deny Russian ability to bring it all to bear against NATO member states.

If it weren't for false premises, you have no premises at all.

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I've seen this calculation a lot lately. US $, Russian hardware and materiel.

Does nobody count the human cost? Lives matter.

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Sometimes I question whether you even try to understand.

I have no problem with any of it. It's how the world works. The primary difference between you and me on this issue is that you seem to believe that when we do the same things everyone else does we are leading a coup, justifying an invasion, otherwise acting inappropriately.

And, no, Russia did not win Trump the election - not even close. But it's beyond dispute that they try to affect our elections and always have. And, yes, other countries do also, just as we try elsewhere. I've acknowledged all of this is numerous posts.

---

I think what you misunderstand is the USA is not designed to be a global police state that intervenes everywhere.

The Founding Fathers would be horrified at what we have become.

DC has also proven not to be very good at it (25 years of foreign policy failure)

Nor is it good for Ukraine, currently being destroyed right now in this conflict.


(Anyway done arguing for tonight. Off to Church to pray for peace on Earth and an end to stupid proxy wars run by horrible people in DC

O come, Desire of nations,
Bid envy, strife, and quarrels cease;
Fill the whole world with heaven's peace)

---

You really should educate yourself fully, rather than just parroting… ISW does a very good job of explaining the strategic stakes of the outcome of the war in Ukraine.

NEW: The US has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think.

As Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. 🧵(1/19) pic.twitter.com/xgV1SMcEAT

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) December 14, 2023

---

Oh wow and who runs that organization?




And who is she related to? Could it be that Robert Kagan is her brother in law…







And who is he married to?







You guys are hilarious…

---

Like I said, you neither read nor understood any of the solid work posted in those Twitter threads. You'd rather live in a very narrow genetic fallacy.

.

---

And you would rather post propaganda from a bunch of ex-Trotskyite neo-cons and liberals who never met a war they did not want to see American boys fight and die in…


Let Nuland and her family of scum bag Kegans from New York can go fight their own grudges from the old country over in Eastern Europe.

I think real Americans can sit this conflict out.

---

**** Nuland