Indeed. Hitler only used a handful of troops to force negotiations on Austria. Then Czechoslovakia....Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:Russia tried diplomatic discussions for years. No one was interested. Given that they only sent a handful of troops in 2022, the initial invasion was most likely intended to force negotiations. Which it did, and we sabotaged them yet again.FLBear5630 said:
You keep missing the invasion part. If this was a diplomatic discussion, I may agree. But Russia invaded twice. If Nations can't exist without the fear of invasion by a stronger neighbor it is not good for the US or anyone else. I understand some can't defend themselves, like Tibet. But the others that can, like Ukraine, Taiwan and Korea, we need to send a message that invaders will not prosper. Russia doesn't invade, none of this happens.
"Handful of troops intended to force negotiations." LOL!
Again, I thought folks stopped this theory because it was too stupid, yet here we are.
The rest is BS of course.
Why Are We in Ukraine?
413,969 Views |
6272 Replies |
Last: 17 min ago by boognish_bear
Hitler
Not Hitler.
Compare apples to apples. When was the last time the US invaded Mexico? 1916 to chase Pancho Villa?? Over 100 years ago? Sure is the same world order... Come on. You are really stretching.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:That was my quote, but Redbrick is right. No one is arguing for isolationism. The way you're using the term, it's just a pejorative way of describing foreign policy realism.FLBear5630 said:Your whole posts is that we should not help Ukraine and Nations looking to us for help or we neo-con/Libs. The US became the predominant economy in the world doing just that. Helping other nations and establishing/building markets. Not sitting on our hands.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Look back through history, isolationism is not the key to peace. When a major nation like the US stays out the others fill the void….)Sam Lowry said:Fought back with what? Their military is completely dependent on us.FLBear5630 said:You don't think Ukraine would have fought back without us? Or, if NATO went all in and defended Ukraine from invasion that all those gains that you trumpet Russia won never would have happened? It is the policy of isolationism and NOT showing strength early on that created this mess. Requiring the US to take half ass measures is what will create a stronger, more dangerous Russia. Doves and Isolationist never learn, story as old as time.Sam Lowry said:Russia will have that seasoned military precisely because we did get involved. They'll have a booming economy to go with it. And they'll have a good chunk of Ukraine, whereas they would have settled for negotiated autonomy in the Donbas.FLBear5630 said:This is a great point. Russia will have a seasoned military after this mess. They will know what works, what does not, and their leadership will be battle hardened. Sort of like the Germans in Spain.Redbrickbear said:Thankfully, US foreign policy towards Russia since 1991 been well-steered; mindful of them as a top nuclear power, not motivated by the inter-ethnic peccadilloes of immigrant origin bureaucrats, cognizant of India and China’s own 1:1 relationships, and beneficial to Americans. https://t.co/VDCc7FOmbV pic.twitter.com/VpyngjMJ92
— ib (@Indian_Bronson) January 20, 2024
But, the West should not take part, not notice. There is no binding agreement with Ukraine. I wonder if the 1940's would have gone different with more US involvement in Spain, if nothing else to match Germany and Italy's skill level and intelligence. But, isolationism seems to be the flavor of the day. Was Spain a cautionary tale? Texaco did well by it.
Great strategy on our part.
Everything that's happened was predictable and predicted. It's the interventionists who never learn.
No one has called for "isolationism" and no candidate or party has ever said that is what we should do.
We are the largest economy on earth with trade & military alliances all over the planet….none of that is changing.
Are you ever going to drop this sad talking point that NOT fighting proxy wars is the same as "isolationism"?
Neo-Cons and Lib interventionists tried this same tactic of throwing around the term isolationist when we finally made the right call to end the failed war in Afghanistan.
p.s.
I mean look at the map…how can anyone think we are isolationist become we won't fight some stupid proxy war in the 3rd world?
And these are that military alliances of the USA…not even its trade relationships
The map looks that way because we don't follow your advice in foreign policy…
What is my advice on foreign policy?
When have I ever said we can not have alliances with other nations?
Like your claim of "isolationism" this seems like another weak argument
Your post is anti-Ukraine support:
"Russia will have that seasoned military precisely because we did get involved. They'll have a booming economy to go with it. And they'll have a good chunk of Ukraine, whereas they would have settled for negotiated autonomy in the Donbas.
Great strategy on our part."
Supporting the Ukraines of the world is exactly how we did become what we are.
And if you think supporting Ukraine is going to establish our dominance, it's having the opposite effect.
Right. That's what it is. What about NATO? How should we handle Europe, Japan, Korea, Israel? You guys are good with our policies? Glad to hear it.
You keep asking about NATO as if it's in danger or that Ukraine…a country that has never been in NATO…has any bearing on our military alliance network.
If anything several NATO countries oppose Ukraine ever being a member.
And as for our policies…it depends.
A policy of getting NATO nations to spend their share for defense? Yes
A policy of starting proxy wars in the backyard of a nuclear armed nation? No, Nuland should be hung for putting Americans in danger and getting lots of Ukrainians killed
You keep missing the invasion part. If this was a diplomatic discussion, I may agree. But Russia invaded twice. If Nations can't exist without the fear of invasion by a stronger neighbor it is not good for the US or anyone else..
1. You keep missing the part where our State department helped over throw the last government. Or where we spent billions influencing them in the years leading up to 2014 (see Nuland interview)
2. Come on with the "invaded twice stuff"…we have invaded Mexico 10 freaking times in the past to impose our will South of the border.
And you are not opposed to that….you just don't like it when Russia does the same.
What do you mean Russia does the same? Russia lost, Ukraine broke away and chose the west. Now Vlad is throwing a temper tantrum with tanks. People with your views are sending the message it is perfectly ok to invade, unless you are the US than you only are allowed to roll over...
Russia plays the "influence" game too, as does China. Russia lost. Ukraine chose the west and literally asked for assistance to transition from an Eastern Block Nation to an EU-based Western Nation. That is their choice as a sovereign Nation, a sovereignty that Russia agreed to in the 1990's. As you pointed out, Ukraine has a long history with the West in Donetsk, over 50 years older than the US's last issues with Mexico which bother you so. Ukraine as a Western Nation is not a stretch by any means, this is not Kazakhstan. But, you have no concern for Ukrainian sovereignty? You seem concerned for everyone but the ones actually being invaded or threatened to be invaded (Taiwan).
As Senate tries to move on aid package to Ukraine with a deal on the border, Matt Gaetz sends message to Speaker Johnson: "I sure hope that Speaker Johnson doesn't do a deal on Ukraine. That's not where Republican voters are." pic.twitter.com/BLVOX2oc4Q
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) January 22, 2024
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.Realitybites said:
Hitler
Not Hitler.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
Quote:
Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids
So what's crazier...a government that gives a married woman with a large family this, or a government that gives an unmarried woman who gets knocked up ten times a whole lot more as long as she doesn't get married? Because the latter policy is law in the good old US of A.
Uh . . . Russia spends more per capita than the U.S. on social welfare programs - along with a host of other government programs.Realitybites said:Quote:
Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids
So what's crazier...a government that gives a married woman with a large family this, or a government that gives an unmarried woman who gets knocked up ten times a whole lot more as long as she doesn't get married? Because the latter policy is law in the good old US of A.
The abortion "restrictions" were just a couple regions.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
And I'm not sure further restrictions on speech are pro-family. It's also hypocritcal, as the major cities have massive and exceedingly open LGBT communities (think South Beach and Castro on steroids), and Putin has done nothing about those. The mob would never let him.
So he's too authoritarian but also not authoritarian enough.sombear said:The abortion "restrictions" were just a couple regions.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
And I'm not sure further restrictions on speech are pro-family. It's also hypocritcal, as the major cities have massive and exceedingly open LGBT communities (think South Beach and Castro on steroids), and Putin has done nothing about those. The mob would never let him.
He's far too authoritarian, but he can't cross the oligarchs or the mob and has to a least pay lip service to the Orthodox elites. It's really not too difficult to describe what Russia is really like.Sam Lowry said:So he's too authoritarian but also not authoritarian enough.sombear said:The abortion "restrictions" were just a couple regions.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
And I'm not sure further restrictions on speech are pro-family. It's also hypocritcal, as the major cities have massive and exceedingly open LGBT communities (think South Beach and Castro on steroids), and Putin has done nothing about those. The mob would never let him.
Most people know this. And Putin also is the consummate politician. He says a lot of things that do not match what he actually is doing.
sombear said:He's far too authoritarian, but he can't cross the oligarchs or the mob and has to a least pay lip service to the Orthodox elites. It's really not too difficult to describe what Russia is really like.Sam Lowry said:So he's too authoritarian but also not authoritarian enough.sombear said:The abortion "restrictions" were just a couple regions.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
And I'm not sure further restrictions on speech are pro-family. It's also hypocritcal, as the major cities have massive and exceedingly open LGBT communities (think South Beach and Castro on steroids), and Putin has done nothing about those. The mob would never let him.
Most people know this. And Putin also is the consummate politician. He says a lot of things that do not match what he actually is doing.
I think most people acknowledge that Russia is a kleptocracy.
1. My understanding is that the power of the Russian mob has been curtailed since the 1990s by the Kermlin...is that not true? Basically the Putinist State forcing the mob to be subordinate.
2. By Orthodox elites do you mean the Russian Orthodox Church leaders? Or that the people around Putin are just ethnic Russians of the orthodox faith?
Exactly. With the pro-family legislation, too, there are limits to what they can accomplish. Just look at us here in the US.Redbrickbear said:1. My understanding is that the power of the Russian mob has been curtailed since the 1990s by the Kermlin...is that not true? Basically the Putinist State forcing the mob to be subordinate.sombear said:He's far too authoritarian, but he can't cross the oligarchs or the mob and has to a least pay lip service to the Orthodox elites. It's really not too difficult to describe what Russia is really like.Sam Lowry said:So he's too authoritarian but also not authoritarian enough.sombear said:The abortion "restrictions" were just a couple regions.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
And I'm not sure further restrictions on speech are pro-family. It's also hypocritcal, as the major cities have massive and exceedingly open LGBT communities (think South Beach and Castro on steroids), and Putin has done nothing about those. The mob would never let him.
Most people know this. And Putin also is the consummate politician. He says a lot of things that do not match what he actually is doing.
Great questions, and no simple answers.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:He's far too authoritarian, but he can't cross the oligarchs or the mob and has to a least pay lip service to the Orthodox elites. It's really not too difficult to describe what Russia is really like.Sam Lowry said:So he's too authoritarian but also not authoritarian enough.sombear said:The abortion "restrictions" were just a couple regions.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
I'm an anti-woke culture warrior as commonly defined.
But this alt-right trend of painting Putin and Russia as some bastion of traditional or conservative values is about as misinformed or outright deceptive as anything out there.
Those of us who have spent any time there can speak to the extreme decadence and debauchery.
Much of Russian society is dominated by vicious organized crime. Putin looks the other way.
Russia is one of the worst in the world for sex trafficking.
Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Abortion rates are among the highest in the world.
About 6% of Russians attend church at least once a month.
Child abuse is off the charts.
Despite some of Putin's public statements, he has repeatedly cracked down on Christians. Among many other things, he has regulated clergy training and qualifications; restricted and in some cases prohibited evangelism; restricted and in some cases prohibited missionaries; forced clergy to spout pro-Russia talking points in church.
Most of Russia's key allies are the worst countries for Christians: Iran, China, muslim African regimes, North Korea, Syria, the "stans."
Yea, all that is true.
Russia is a strange sort of country.
The country is literally passing pro-family laws all the time and yet on the ground Russia is more decadent than the USA.
Very strange....
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/russia-offers-mother-heroine-medal-and-16800-for-having-10-children.html
[Russia is offering a hero's medal and $16,000 to women who have 10 kids]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
And I'm not sure further restrictions on speech are pro-family. It's also hypocritcal, as the major cities have massive and exceedingly open LGBT communities (think South Beach and Castro on steroids), and Putin has done nothing about those. The mob would never let him.
Most people know this. And Putin also is the consummate politician. He says a lot of things that do not match what he actually is doing.
I think most people acknowledge that Russia is a kleptocracy.
1. My understanding is that the power of the Russian mob has been curtailed since the 1990s by the Kermlin...is that not true? Basically the Putinist State forcing the mob to be subordinate.
2. By Orthodox elites do you mean the Russian Orthodox Church leaders? Or that the people around Putin are just ethnic Russians of the orthodox faith?
The Russian mob is far larger and more powerful today than ever before. But they no longer try to control Putin or his regime. Rather, Putin largely allows them to do what they want, and Putin's regime is full of mobsters and/or those with mob connections. Much of the current relationship between Putin and the mob is due to a quid pro - the mob asserts less political control in exchange for Putin allowing the mob into more "legitimate" businesses.
I'm referring to the church leaders. It's an exceedingly delicate relationship. Putin publicly speaks highly of the church and does a lot of favors for influential leaders. That allows Putin to take some strong anti-Christian positions that do not get as much publicity. The leadership knows his heart isn't with them, and Putin knows they know that.
"The opioid epidemic in the US has become more deadly than the worst periods of post-Collapse vodka despair in Russia"
1. You have to wonder what about the modern USA is causing Americans to be as depressed as Russian after the collapse of the USSR?
2. At least on the "vodka deaths from despair" ratio things have gotten a little better in Russia
1. You have to wonder what about the modern USA is causing Americans to be as depressed as Russian after the collapse of the USSR?
2. At least on the "vodka deaths from despair" ratio things have gotten a little better in Russia
I think it is the worst problem we are facing today, and it gets far too little attention.Redbrickbear said:
"The opioid epidemic in the US has become more deadly than the worst periods of post-Collapse vodka despair in Russia"
1. You have to wonder what about the modern USA is causing Americans to be as depressed as Russian after the collapse of the USSR?
2. At least on the "vodka deaths from despair" ratio things have gotten a little better in Russia
I think the cause is fairly straightforward: Endless supply, cheap prices, highly addictive, and lethal.
sombear said:I think it is the worst problem we are facing today, and it gets far too little attention.Redbrickbear said:
"The opioid epidemic in the US has become more deadly than the worst periods of post-Collapse vodka despair in Russia"
1. You have to wonder what about the modern USA is causing Americans to be as depressed as Russian after the collapse of the USSR?
2. At least on the "vodka deaths from despair" ratio things have gotten a little better in Russia
I think the cause is fairly straightforward: Endless supply, cheap prices, highly addictive, and lethal.
Both charts are so incredibly sad….so much human and family suffering behind those numbers
Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I think it is the worst problem we are facing today, and it gets far too little attention.Redbrickbear said:
"The opioid epidemic in the US has become more deadly than the worst periods of post-Collapse vodka despair in Russia"
1. You have to wonder what about the modern USA is causing Americans to be as depressed as Russian after the collapse of the USSR?
2. At least on the "vodka deaths from despair" ratio things have gotten a little better in Russia
I think the cause is fairly straightforward: Endless supply, cheap prices, highly addictive, and lethal.
Both charts are so incredibly sad….so much human and family suffering behind those numbers
At least in the United States ……
1. Loneliness
2. Debt
3. Sense of hopelessness in regards to the future
4. Lack of Faith in God
5. Physical pain, anxiety, insomnia
Now sure how well trained they'll be, other than well-trained at using their dead comrades as sandbags.Redbrickbear said:Thankfully, US foreign policy towards Russia since 1991 been well-steered; mindful of them as a top nuclear power, not motivated by the inter-ethnic peccadilloes of immigrant origin bureaucrats, cognizant of India and China’s own 1:1 relationships, and beneficial to Americans. https://t.co/VDCc7FOmbV pic.twitter.com/VpyngjMJ92
— ib (@Indian_Bronson) January 20, 2024
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
From the Kyiv Post:
Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
Said the vatnik months ago.
You and Red should be happy. Ukraine no more? Or just a puppet for Vlad like is should be, right?Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
You misspelled "predicted."Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
Said the vatnik months ago.
I'm sorry Ukraine will be no more. Unlike most of Washington, I do care about it somewhat. I will be happy when the senseless carnage ends.FLBear5630 said:You and Red should be happy. Ukraine no more? Or just a puppet for Vlad like is should be, right?Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
Sam Lowry said:You misspelled "predicted."Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
Said the vatnik months ago.
Nothing predicted. Just the Russian BS you always post, just months later with the same posts. I'm sure you'll be posting the same thing months from now too.
Those air defenses are so disabled the first shoot down in history of an AWACS happened.
Sam Lowry said:I'm sorry Ukraine will be no more. Unlike most of Washington, I do care about it somewhat. I will be happy when the senseless carnage ends.FLBear5630 said:You and Red should be happy. Ukraine no more? Or just a puppet for Vlad like is should be, right?Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
LOL! You don't.
Our last two corp reports confirm Russian advances and other bad news also. Ukraine is having to conserve ammo and equipment. Russia is throwing endless numbers and using endless supply of Iranian/North Korean/Chinese ammo. It's an equipment and manpower mismatch right now. The main thing keeping Ukraine in it is they remain superior tactically and man-to-man.Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
I wish the U.S. would get back in the game and mean it.
If we'd ever meant it, we'd have started ramping up arms and ammo production a long time ago. Far too late now, besides which it doesn't solve the manpower problem.sombear said:Our last two corp reports confirm Russian advances and other bad news also. Ukraine is having to conserve ammo and equipment. Russia is throwing endless numbers and using endless supply of Iranian/North Korean/Chinese ammo. It's an equipment and manpower mismatch right now. The main thing keeping Ukraine in it is they remain superior tactically and man-to-man.Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
I wish the U.S. would get back in the game and mean it.
Manpower wouldn't be nearly as significant if we were supplying what we could easily supply and if Ukraine wasn't having to ration out of fear even less is on its way.Sam Lowry said:If we'd ever meant it, we'd have started ramping up arms and ammo production a long time ago. Far too late now, besides which it doesn't solve the manpower problem.sombear said:Our last two corp reports confirm Russian advances and other bad news also. Ukraine is having to conserve ammo and equipment. Russia is throwing endless numbers and using endless supply of Iranian/North Korean/Chinese ammo. It's an equipment and manpower mismatch right now. The main thing keeping Ukraine in it is they remain superior tactically and man-to-man.Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
I wish the U.S. would get back in the game and mean it.
We no longer stand for freedom.
Ukrainian forces so starved for artillery ammo they sometimes fire smoke rounds at advancing Russians. Near Bakhmut. @CNN @cnni @MarkHertling @CedricLeighton #Ukraine with @JosephAtaman @TarasovaMarkina https://t.co/i9APbKFYf8
— Frederik Pleitgen (@fpleitgenCNN) January 23, 2024
It's not nearly as easy as it was. We started out supplying them with our extra stuff, but extra stuff didn't do the job. Now Ukraine is learning what I said two years ago. It's just not as important to us as it is to the Russians.sombear said:Manpower wouldn't be nearly as significant if we were supplying what we could easily supply and if Ukraine wasn't having to ration out of fear even less is on its way.Sam Lowry said:If we'd ever meant it, we'd have started ramping up arms and ammo production a long time ago. Far too late now, besides which it doesn't solve the manpower problem.sombear said:Our last two corp reports confirm Russian advances and other bad news also. Ukraine is having to conserve ammo and equipment. Russia is throwing endless numbers and using endless supply of Iranian/North Korean/Chinese ammo. It's an equipment and manpower mismatch right now. The main thing keeping Ukraine in it is they remain superior tactically and man-to-man.Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
I wish the U.S. would get back in the game and mean it.
It seems plenty important to Iran, North Korea, China and some others.Sam Lowry said:It's not nearly as easy as it was. We started out supplying them with our extra stuff, but extra stuff didn't do the job. Now Ukraine is learning what I said two years ago. It's just not as important to us as it is to the Russians.sombear said:Manpower wouldn't be nearly as significant if we were supplying what we could easily supply and if Ukraine wasn't having to ration out of fear even less is on its way.Sam Lowry said:If we'd ever meant it, we'd have started ramping up arms and ammo production a long time ago. Far too late now, besides which it doesn't solve the manpower problem.sombear said:Our last two corp reports confirm Russian advances and other bad news also. Ukraine is having to conserve ammo and equipment. Russia is throwing endless numbers and using endless supply of Iranian/North Korean/Chinese ammo. It's an equipment and manpower mismatch right now. The main thing keeping Ukraine in it is they remain superior tactically and man-to-man.Sam Lowry said:
From the Kyiv Post:Avdiivka appears to be falling more quickly than Marinka, another linchpin recently captured by Russia. Having secured Bakhmut, Russian forces are reportedly moving west toward Chasiv Yar and increasing pressure on Kupiansk. Meanwhile Ukrainian air defenses are largely disabled. The inevitable collapse may be at hand.Quote:
Russian Troops Reach Southern Edge of Avdiivka, Says ISW
The Institute for the Study of War said geolocated footage had shown Russian troops reaching the southern edge of the Donetsk region city, one of the most contested areas of the war.
by Leo Chiu | January 22, 2024
Geolocated footage, published on Jan. 21, has shown Russian troops advancing south of Avdiivka and along the treeline southwest of the city.
According to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), Russian forces have made "confirmed advances" in the Tsarska Okhota restaurant area along Soborna Street, which is approximately 550m southeast of the houses lying in the outskirts.
I wish the U.S. would get back in the game and mean it.
And I submit that extra did do the job. But now they're running out of it.
Expect more of this. One of the fascinating things about America's military failures is how intensely we analyze them and develop creative ways to avoid learning anything. No takeaway is more enduring than "the results would have been different if only we'd done more of the same." When you see Whiterock parroting that one, you'll know the end is nigh.sombear said:
We no longer stand for freedom.Ukrainian forces so starved for artillery ammo they sometimes fire smoke rounds at advancing Russians. Near Bakhmut. @CNN @cnni @MarkHertling @CedricLeighton #Ukraine with @JosephAtaman @TarasovaMarkina https://t.co/i9APbKFYf8
— Frederik Pleitgen (@fpleitgenCNN) January 23, 2024
But using your strategy Ukraine rolled over 2 years ago because Russia is bigger. That is better?Sam Lowry said:Expect more of this. One of the fascinating things about America's military failures is how intensely we analyze them and develop creative ways to avoid learning anything. No takeaway is more enduring than "the results would have been different if only we'd done more of the same." When you see Whiterock parroting that one, you'll know the end is nigh.sombear said:
We no longer stand for freedom.Ukrainian forces so starved for artillery ammo they sometimes fire smoke rounds at advancing Russians. Near Bakhmut. @CNN @cnni @MarkHertling @CedricLeighton #Ukraine with @JosephAtaman @TarasovaMarkina https://t.co/i9APbKFYf8
— Frederik Pleitgen (@fpleitgenCNN) January 23, 2024
They're getting outshot around 10 to 1 by estimates on both sides yet still fighting bravely and holding ground.Sam Lowry said:Expect more of this. One of the fascinating things about America's military failures is how intensely we analyze them and develop creative ways to avoid learning anything. No takeaway is more enduring than "the results would have been different if only we'd done more of the same." When you see Whiterock parroting that one, you'll know the end is nigh.sombear said:
We no longer stand for freedom.Ukrainian forces so starved for artillery ammo they sometimes fire smoke rounds at advancing Russians. Near Bakhmut. @CNN @cnni @MarkHertling @CedricLeighton #Ukraine with @JosephAtaman @TarasovaMarkina https://t.co/i9APbKFYf8
— Frederik Pleitgen (@fpleitgenCNN) January 23, 2024
Are you saying sending them more ammo and equipment would not make a difference? Or are you admitting the obvious (that it would) but just don't care? BTW the latter is not a rhetorical question. I know folks who will say straight up they just don't care. I respect their candor if nothing else.
I mean, even Russian millbloggers generally agree that Ukrainians badly outfight the Russians in battles where they are even close to even strength.