I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Why Are We in Ukraine?
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Last: 2 days ago by whiterock
ATL Bear said:The hard reality is that Euro Maiden gave perfect cover for Russia to execute on plans they'd been making…sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Yanukovych really gave them (Russia) the keys to the kingdom...
I think that is a decent argument.
Also very possible that Russia was perfectly happy with a pro-Moscow government in place in Kyiv until the coup/revolution.
We can never know.
But once a pro-Moscow government was replaced (by violent means) by a pro-Western government it was obvious that Russia would take Crimea and not let their Black Sea naval base to taken from them.
We are still witnessing in 2024 the consequences of that event in 2014….planned or not
Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Vomiting RU propaganda isn't explaining crap, vatnik.
Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
If you ever posted one substantive thought, I would stop defending the Russians for good. Not that it would change my mind, but I'd probably die of a heart attack.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Vomiting RU propaganda isn't explaining crap, vatnik.
So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Sam Lowry said:If you ever posted one substantive thought, I would stop defending the Russians for good. Not that it would change my mind, but I'd probably die of a heart attack.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Vomiting RU propaganda isn't explaining crap, vatnik.
LOL! Like you ever do with your pro-RU BS and constant bending over for Russia. Dumb vatnik.
Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
You should use more pedophiles, rapists, and fake journalists to prove your point.
I take no responsibility for whatever your pals at the NED do in their free time.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
You should use more pedophiles, rapists, and fake journalists to prove your point.
Sam Lowry said:I take no responsibility for whatever your pals at the NED do in their free time.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
You should use more pedophiles, rapists, and fake journalists to prove your point.
Says the guy who actually shared from said "sources". LOL!
Being happy about anti-Russian/pro-freedom/EU protests is a far cry from planning and leading a coup.Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
Yes, $5 billion total starting in 2001 when Ukraine broke free from the Soviets. That is relatively paltry sum compared to support we've provided to other early democracies and freedom movements. And to the extent that money made it to leadership, guess who would have received it? VY and others who openly supported freedom and aligning with the west - until they abruptly turned thanks to Russian threats, pressure, and inducements. The money certainly did not go to intel b/c it was infested with Russian sympathizers. That is well document and admitted even by Russia.
All of this is why I always pose the questions about whether we put VY in office knowing he was going to turn. That is the only way there would have been nearly enough time and foresight to plan and support a coup. Otherwise, you have to resort to, "well, we cheered on the protestors and tried to influence future leadership," which nobody denies.
Ohhh, the one that you lied about…gotcha.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:I take no responsibility for whatever your pals at the NED do in their free time.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
You should use more pedophiles, rapists, and fake journalists to prove your point.
Says the guy who actually shared from said "sources". LOL!
Sam Lowry said:Ohhh, the one that you lied about…gotcha.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:I take no responsibility for whatever your pals at the NED do in their free time.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
You should use more pedophiles, rapists, and fake journalists to prove your point.
Says the guy who actually shared from said "sources". LOL!
Lol no lies at all. You just can't get Putin's nuts out of your eyes to see it.
sombear said:Being happy about anti-Russian/pro-freedom/EU protests is a far cry from planning and leading a coup.Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
Yes, $5 billion total starting in 2001 when Ukraine broke free from the Soviets.
You fall back on the time line (as if anyone said it did not start in 2001) without talking about what that money was spent on.
I know you are big on Nuland harmlessly giving out sandwiches in Kyiv....do you think the State Department and CIA were just spending $5 billion in sandwiches over there?
More likely than paying deli bills they were buying influence, working through NGOs, engaging in actions behind the scenes, and planning a coup when circumstances were favorable.
We already know because it came out in the Yanukovych trial and in the mass of documents they recovered from his attempted lake dump. In fact I'm not so sure it wasn't happening with or without Euro Maiden.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:The hard reality is that Euro Maiden gave perfect cover for Russia to execute on plans they'd been making…sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Yanukovych really gave them (Russia) the keys to the kingdom...
I think that is a decent argument.
Also very possible that Russia was perfectly happy with a pro-Moscow government in place in Kyiv until the coup/revolution.
We can never know.
But once a pro-Moscow government was replaced (by violent means) by a pro-Western government it was obvious that Russia would take Crimea and not let their Black Sea naval base to taken from them.
We are still witnessing in 2024 the consequences of that event in 2014….planned or not
From a Polish think tank in 2018.
https://warsawinstitute.org/yanukovych-facilitated-annexation-crimea/
The annexation of Crimea and the attempt to implement the New Russia scenario were not undertaken by the Kremlin under the influence of the developments, implying that they were not previously unscheduled. On the contrary, the plans for aggression were ready much earlier and it was only in 2014 that they were updated and put into effect, taking advantage of favourable circumstances.
Former Putin adviser Andrey Illarionov claims that the first serious plan for a military solution to the "Ukrainian question" was approved at the end of 2004, when President Leonid Kuchma refused to suppress the "Orange Revolution" by force, as a result of which Viktor Yushchenko won the election. However, as it turned out, the Russian interests on the Dnieper river were threatened only for a couple of years. In 2010, Viktor Yanukovych won the election.
Afterwards, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) warned Yanukovych at least twice about the Russian threat to the independence of the Ukrainian state. The first letter is dated on 15 January 2013 and the second on 17 February 2014 the Prosecutor's Office presented both documents in court, where the trial in absentia of the former president is taking place. The defence of Yanukovych, who has been in Russia since 2014, claims that he was unaware of the existing threat to Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity coming from Russia. The two documents contradict this statement. It can be noted that already in the first letter (January 2013), Yanukovych was informed that an interdepartmental government commission was formed in Moscow in order to "create political, humanitarian and economic conditions favourable for intervention in Ukraine". According to SBU reports, the main positions in the commission were held by Chief of Staff of Presidential Administration Sergei Ivanov, Vladislav Surkov, who has been a presidential aide for Ukrainian policy in the Kremlin for years, and Head of Counter-Intelligence (SVR) Mikhail Fradkov. Moreover, the work of the commission was coordinated by President Vladimir Putin himself. Among the objectives that were set at that time in Moscow was "the establishment of the dominance of Russian energy companies in the Ukrainian market and the broadening of the influence in communications, machine industry, shipbuilding industry and other key sectors". Later, Yanukovych completely ignored the reports of the counter-intelligence informing about the fact that in the second half of 2013, the number of Russian military aircraft flights near the Ukrainian border doubled.
However, Yanukovych did not react in any way to the alarming reports from the SBU. Besides, a few months after taking office, the president concluded an agreement about the cooperation between the SBU and the FSB, under which the Russian services were almost free to operate on the territory of Ukraine.
The entire policy of Yanukovych started to fall into place: it weakened the Ukrainian state, paving the way for both the forthcoming annexation of Crimea and the attempt to separate the eastern and southern oblasts from the rest of the country. Under Yanukovych, the SBU was forbidden to deal with pro-Russian separatists in the Crimea and the FSB officially returned to the peninsula. The president's party, the Party of Regions, co-governed the Crimean autonomy with local Russians, while the local SBU and militia were infiltrated and taken over by Moscow agents.The similar thing happened to the local military units to a large extent. That is why, the Russians took over the Crimea with such ease and a large part of the military and SBU officers went over to the Moscow side.
Its because I did read the links that I know it doesn't support what you're saying and is gross innuendo. In fact I thought we spent most of the time on your (and Putin's) Nazi fetish.Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
Wait a minute. You think it is strange the US spend 50 years telling the border Nations to come to Western Democracy and that capitalism is better than spent 5 billion to help them establish Democratic Governments? How was it supposed to happen, Osmosis?Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
Maybe if the younger Generations lived through the Cold War and saw what typically followed a "Russian Special Military Action".
ATL Bear said:(and Putin's) Nazi fetish.Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
If you have looked at how many times the current US regime accuses its domestic conservative enemies of being "Nazis" and how much Hollywood nazi-porn is put out in terms of movies each year where that movement is the theme... then its not just Putin who is obsessed with the fetish of the NSDAP
To both the regimes in DC and Moscow the 2nd world war is now an anchor point of all reference.
All their enemies (foreign and domestic) are Nazis.
In Russian any attempt at pulling back from the Ukraine war is "helping the Nazis"
In modern America any attempt to want a more reasonable foreign policy and less war is painted as "isolationism" aka not being anti-Nazi enough and "refusing to stand up to the new Fascists in Russia"
Its a self licking ice-cream cone of stupidity that both sides are engaged in.
I know it's a point you guys like to make, but assuming all NGO work is CIA work, or even rises to a coup initiating level is simply false. In fact if distributing and promoting free markets, elections, and democracy is coup activities, then you're going to have a hard time defending Trump as not being an insurrectionist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Being happy about anti-Russian/pro-freedom/EU protests is a far cry from planning and leading a coup.Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
Yes, $5 billion total starting in 2001 when Ukraine broke free from the Soviets.
You fall back on the time line (as if anyone said it did not start in 2001) without talking about what that money was spent on.
I know you are big on Nuland harmlessly giving out sandwiches in Kyiv....do you think the State Department and CIA were just spending $5 billion in sandwiches over there?
More likely than paying deli bills they were buying influence, working through NGOs, engaging in actions behind the scenes, and planning a coup when circumstances were favorable.
You know you're lying to yourself.ATL Bear said:Its because I did read the links that I know it doesn't support what you're saying and is gross innuendo. In fact I thought we spent most of the time on your (and Putin's) Nazi fetish.Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
And we spent most of the time on the Nazi thing because you and Mothra wouldn't let it go. I always said NATO was the real issue.
FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
LOL…so Russian business ties and autonomy for the Donbas (which everyone supposedly agreed on) were a threat, but violently overthrowing Yanukovych was "promoting democracy and free markets."
What a tangled web we weave.
What a tangled web we weave.
You misspelled "abolish."FLBear5630 said:Wait a minute. You think it is strange the US spend 50 years telling the border Nations to come to Western Democracy and that capitalism is better than spent 5 billion to help them establish Democratic Governments?Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
Both can be wrong, and they are. I'm just not engaged in defending either.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:(and Putin's) Nazi fetish.Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
If you have looked at how many times the current US regime accuses its domestic conservative enemies of being "Nazis" and how much Hollywood nazi-porn is put out in terms of movies each year where that movement is the theme then its not just Putin who is obsessed with the fetish of of the NSDAP
To both the regimes in DC and Moscow the 2nd world war is now and anchor point of all reference.
All their enemies (foreign and domestic) are nazis.
In Russian any attempt at pulling back from the Ukraine war is "helping the Nazis"
In modern America any attempt to want a more reasonable foreign policy and less war is painted as "isolationism" aka not being anti-nazi enough and "refusing to stand up to the new Fascists in Russia"
It's a self licking ice-cream cone of stupidity that both sides are engaged in.
Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system, not perfect but existing. So, it would seem the money was spent where they said. Ukraine is a nation, did turn over the missiles and has had non-challenged elections since 2014.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Using your logic, nothing can ever occur because we can't trust anyone, which includes any of our law enforcement, international or political So, there is no way to combat anything you say. MAGA is the exact same way. Any evidence is the deep state. FBI is fabricating. Only Trump can be believed.
You're the only one spinning tales. And the violence started when he started offing protesters and disappearing the supporters.Sam Lowry said:
LOL…so Russian business ties and autonomy for the Donbas (which everyone supposedly agreed on) were a threat, but violently overthrowing Yanukovych was "promoting democracy and free markets."
What a tangled web we weave.
FLBear5630 said:Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system,.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Russia itself declared its independence and got out of the USSR...so lets no quite give the CIA credit for brining Ukraine out of the Soviet Union.
And Ukraine has never been much of a democracy since its independence.
It constantly has ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth (economically and politically)
Its was ruled by mostly pro-Russia types and since 2014 by pro-Western ones.
And during that time plenty of bans on political parties, media, and independent voices
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799
If the CIA and State Department were really trying to install "democratic values" (which they almost certainly were not) then we can all admit they failed in a speculator fashion....the place as been an corrupt mud pit and economic basket case.
Peter Hitchens as written about this a lot.ATL Bear said:You're the only one spinning tales. And the violence started when he started offing protesters and disappearing the supporters.Sam Lowry said:
LOL…so Russian business ties and autonomy for the Donbas (which everyone supposedly agreed on) were a threat, but violently overthrowing Yanukovych was "promoting democracy and free markets."
What a tangled web we weave.
There were a lot of questions about that....even to this day
https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/02/now-it-starts-to-come-out-kievs-2014-revolution-was-achieved-by-heavily-armed-thugs-many-of-them-neo.html
[In response to a book review in an earlier edition of the TLS.
As a Wall Street Journal correspondent who helped to cover the revolution and its aftermath, I must correct the impression left by her review that a courageous popular response to armed repression led to victory for the protesters. On the contrary, on the last days of February 2014, armed thugs many, if not most, heavily armed far-right and neo-Nazi activists from western Ukraine stormed Maidan square, killing and capturing police officers and forcing the hand of a government that, as well as being unpopular, was bankrupt and diplomatically isolated'.
The rest is behind a pay wall. Well, I can say that it is well worth the money, or buying the (excellent) magazine itself...
If the Maidan was not about ending corruption (and it plainly wasn't), nor about democracy (how could it be, since it overthrew a legitimate, elected government by force and removed the existing President without following the Ukrainian constitution?), then what was it about?]
----------
Even the BBC brings up the idea that gunfire was coming from the protestors first and from the conservatory building (by then under the control of protestors) before the police started shooting back.
That is a pretty shocking thing for the BBC to admit was possible.
Like our own BLM riots or the Jan. 6th riot....each side believes what it wants on who was responsible.
The pro-Western side says the riot police attacked and starting shooting....the pro-Moscow side says the riot police were attached first with lethal violence.
No one's lying to themselves but you Sam. You still haven't provided any credible evidence to your point. It doesn't even match up with on ground events or timelines. It is the equivalent of circumstantial here say.Sam Lowry said:You know you're lying to yourself.ATL Bear said:Its because I did read the links that I know it doesn't support what you're saying and is gross innuendo. In fact I thought we spent most of the time on your (and Putin's) Nazi fetish.Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
And we spent most of the time on the Nazi thing because you and Mothra wouldn't let it go. I always said NATO was the real issue.
Ok, that is disingenuous. The CIA played a huge role in bringing down the Soviet Union. Same as KGB and Spetznaz did playing roles in all the civil unrest before a "Russian Special Operation".Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system,.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Russia itself declared its independence and got out of the USSR...so lets no quite give the CIA credit for brining Ukraine out of the Soviet Union.
And Ukraine has never been much of a democracy since its independence.
It constantly has ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth (economically and politically)
Its was ruled by mostly pro-Russia types and since 2014 by pro-Western ones.
And during that time plenty of bans on political parties, media, and independent voices
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799
If the CIA and State Department were really trying to install "democratic values" (which they almost certainly were not) then we can all admit they failed in a speculator fashion....the place as been an corrupt mud pit and economic basket case.
You don't go from generations of Soviet Communism to American Democracy in one year. Of course there was corruption, there was corruption before. Old joke about a broken belt. Soviet quality? No, Russian quality... Those issues were there forever, gonna take time to work out. But, to many on here, they are not allowed the growing pains.
FLBear5630 said:Ok, that is disingenuous. The CIA played a huge role in bringing down the Soviet Union.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system,.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Russia itself declared its independence and got out of the USSR...so lets no quite give the CIA credit for brining Ukraine out of the Soviet Union.
And Ukraine has never been much of a democracy since its independence.
It constantly has ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth (economically and politically)
Its was ruled by mostly pro-Russia types and since 2014 by pro-Western ones.
And during that time plenty of bans on political parties, media, and independent voices
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799
If the CIA and State Department were really trying to install "democratic values" (which they almost certainly were not) then we can all admit they failed in a speculator fashion....the place as been an corrupt mud pit and economic basket case.
The terrible Soviet economic system was one of the main drivers of brining down the USSR.
And the precipitating event that lead to the full break up of the Union was the failed coup launch in August of 1991
Are you trying to make the crazy argument that the CIA made the Soviet Union engage in a terrible communist economic system and that the CIA planned the August Coup of 1991 which lead to the end of the USSR?
[The unsuccessful August 1991 coup against Gorbachev sealed the fate of the Soviet Union. Planned by hard-line Communists, the coup diminished Gorbachev's power and propelled Yeltsin and the democratic forces to the forefront of Soviet and Russian politics.
On 20 August, the Russian SFSR was scheduled to sign a New Union Treaty that would have converted the Soviet Union into a federation of independent republics with a common president, foreign policy and military. It was strongly supported by the Central Asian republics, which needed the economic advantages of a common market to prosper...
Thousands of Muscovites came out to defend the White House (the Russian Federation's parliament and Yeltsin's office), the symbolic seat of Russian sovereignty at the time. The organizers of the coup tried but ultimately failed to arrest Yeltsin, who rallied opposition to the coup by making speeches from atop a tank.
After three days, on 21 August 1991, the coup collapsed.
The Soviet Union collapsed with dramatic speed in the last quarter of 1991. Between August and December, 10 republics seceded from the union, including the Russian SFSR, largely out of fear of another coup.]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union
You only seem to attribute negatives to the US. Wonder what the US did to you to make you believe that way. Almost every foreigner I met, likes the US, even in Singapore, Korea, Germany, England, Denmark, Austria.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Ok, that is disingenuous. The CIA played a huge role in bringing down the Soviet Union.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system,.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Russia itself declared its independence and got out of the USSR...so lets no quite give the CIA credit for brining Ukraine out of the Soviet Union.
And Ukraine has never been much of a democracy since its independence.
It constantly has ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth (economically and politically)
Its was ruled by mostly pro-Russia types and since 2014 by pro-Western ones.
And during that time plenty of bans on political parties, media, and independent voices
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799
If the CIA and State Department were really trying to install "democratic values" (which they almost certainly were not) then we can all admit they failed in a speculator fashion....the place as been an corrupt mud pit and economic basket case.
The terrible Soviet economic system was one of the main drivers of brining down the USSR.
And the precipitating event that lead to the full break up of the Union was the failed coup launch in August of 1991
Are you trying to make the crazy argument that the CIA made the Soviet Union engage in a terrible communist economic system and that the CIA planned the August Coup of 1991 which lead to the end of the USSR?
[The unsuccessful August 1991 coup against Gorbachev sealed the fate of the Soviet Union. Planned by hard-line Communists, the coup diminished Gorbachev's power and propelled Yeltsin and the democratic forces to the forefront of Soviet and Russian politics.
On 20 August, the Russian SFSR was scheduled to sign a New Union Treaty that would have converted the Soviet Union into a federation of independent republics with a common president, foreign policy and military. It was strongly supported by the Central Asian republics, which needed the economic advantages of a common market to prosper...
Thousands of Muscovites came out to defend the White House (the Russian Federation's parliament and Yeltsin's office), the symbolic seat of Russian sovereignty at the time. The organizers of the coup tried but ultimately failed to arrest Yeltsin, who rallied opposition to the coup by making speeches from atop a tank.
After three days, on 21 August 1991, the coup collapsed.
The Soviet Union collapsed with dramatic speed in the last quarter of 1991. Between August and December, 10 republics seceded from the union, including the Russian SFSR, largely out of fear of another coup.]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union
Now they DID NOT like Trump, that is true.
Again that is just a straight up lie. As one of many examples, I called attention to the online TV channel that Pyatt helped launch before the coup and showed you exactly how it fit the timeline. You're free to ignore the evidence, but please don't deliberately misrepresent it.ATL Bear said:No one's lying to themselves but you Sam. You still haven't provided any credible evidence to your point. It doesn't even match up with on ground events or timelines. It is the equivalent of circumstantial here say.Sam Lowry said:You know you're lying to yourself.ATL Bear said:Its because I did read the links that I know it doesn't support what you're saying and is gross innuendo. In fact I thought we spent most of the time on your (and Putin's) Nazi fetish.Sam Lowry said:So when you said you took all that time to read the links, that wasn't true?ATL Bear said:Literally no explanation or support, but keep grinding Sam.Sam Lowry said:I've explained it in fairly good detail, and with sources. You and ATL are waiting for the Hollywood version, which we all know you're not going to get.sombear said:
I've asked the generic question several times without response, so trying very straightforward specific questions. But I'm not holding my breath on answers.
And we spent most of the time on the Nazi thing because you and Mothra wouldn't let it go. I always said NATO was the real issue.
FLBear5630 said:You only seem to attribute negatives to the US..Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Ok, that is disingenuous. The CIA played a huge role in bringing down the Soviet Union.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system,.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Russia itself declared its independence and got out of the USSR...so lets no quite give the CIA credit for brining Ukraine out of the Soviet Union.
And Ukraine has never been much of a democracy since its independence.
It constantly has ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth (economically and politically)
Its was ruled by mostly pro-Russia types and since 2014 by pro-Western ones.
And during that time plenty of bans on political parties, media, and independent voices
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799
If the CIA and State Department were really trying to install "democratic values" (which they almost certainly were not) then we can all admit they failed in a speculator fashion....the place as been an corrupt mud pit and economic basket case.
The terrible Soviet economic system was one of the main drivers of brining down the USSR.
And the precipitating event that lead to the full break up of the Union was the failed coup launch in August of 1991
Are you trying to make the crazy argument that the CIA made the Soviet Union engage in a terrible communist economic system and that the CIA planned the August Coup of 1991 which lead to the end of the USSR?
[The unsuccessful August 1991 coup against Gorbachev sealed the fate of the Soviet Union. Planned by hard-line Communists, the coup diminished Gorbachev's power and propelled Yeltsin and the democratic forces to the forefront of Soviet and Russian politics.
On 20 August, the Russian SFSR was scheduled to sign a New Union Treaty that would have converted the Soviet Union into a federation of independent republics with a common president, foreign policy and military. It was strongly supported by the Central Asian republics, which needed the economic advantages of a common market to prosper...
Thousands of Muscovites came out to defend the White House (the Russian Federation's parliament and Yeltsin's office), the symbolic seat of Russian sovereignty at the time. The organizers of the coup tried but ultimately failed to arrest Yeltsin, who rallied opposition to the coup by making speeches from atop a tank.
After three days, on 21 August 1991, the coup collapsed.
The Soviet Union collapsed with dramatic speed in the last quarter of 1991. Between August and December, 10 republics seceded from the union, including the Russian SFSR, largely out of fear of another coup.]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union
I think you have failed to make a distinction between the regime that rules in DC and the American people and States.
You understand they are not the same thing right?
And if you think DC has earned trust then you really are deep into the propaganda
Totally disagree. Particularly in the context of history, for a country that went virtually overnight from communist Soviet Union to sovereign nation then still in large part controlled by Russia years after, Ukraine's commitment to freedom and democracy and reduction in corruption have been exceedingly impressive. Countries more often than not swing back and forth between political and economic extremes, often through extreme violence, even civil wars.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Well, in 1990 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union. By 2014 they have a Democratic system,.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Redbrickbear said:Here is Nuland gushing on camera about the protests/coup in 2014....she really seem to be exited about the coup/protests in Kyiv.sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain how we planned the 2014 coup. Please answer the following:Sam Lowry said:We're supposed to let them do it, we're just not supposed to talk about it. That's the difference between a loyal American and a conspiracy theorist.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Who said I trusted them? I don't. Far from it.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:I hold my fellow Americans in much higher regardRedbrickbear said:sombear said:With due respect to all of my American bros and sis, any American who does not know that our intel works closely with intel in friendly countries and that Russia does the same and more probably should not be discussing or debating any of this.Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Another tweet from a guy who has no idea - or does and lies - how DC works.
Congress has known about our joint intel ops from day 1. So has the NYT by the way.
But did the American people?
Are most aware that the Goobers at the State Department (when not pushing abortion and LGBTQ ideology around the world) have been trying to overthrow regional governments around Russia since before 2014?
Are most Americans aware of the deep links DC has with Kyiv (we basically own it and direct it)?
We know Congress has no problems with having a corrupt Vassal state in Eastern Europe & fighting for it with Russia....are most Americas aware of that or interesting in that?
I think most Americans would in fact be shocked how deeply the CIA and our State Department is imbedded in other nations.
And I think they would be shocked that the CIA is sponsoring coups in their name.
Not if you think they want unaccountable spy agencies killing people and overthrowing governments in their name.
The American people are far more moral than the DC psychopaths you seem to love.
ps
25 years of failure in the middle east should have at least knocked some of the shine off your trust in our alphabet agencies and DC bureaucrats ...they have been constantly wrong and led us into disaster after disaster.
You just trust them on the war in Ukriane.
A pretty impressive record of failure over the past 25 years in the middle east...and now we are supposed to let them launch coups and fund proxy wars against a nuclear armed state on the doorstep of Europe?
What could go wrong....
"Explain in detail the in depth operations of the CIA and its secret classified programs in Eastern Europe"- Sombear
It will take decades for the operation specifics to come out....but one day it will.
Just like CIA operations in Latin America and Southeast Asia during the 1960s are now known.
Needless to say Nuland has already given us an broad outline....the State Department and CIA have admitting to pouring billions of taxpayer money in Ukraine to influence their political and economic system well before the 2014 coup/revolution.
One day it will be interesting to see what else they did in our name....
Can you at least provide a detailed theory that comports with the timeline and events?
She also then went to talk about how much money we had spent there...odd that she would mention that...almost like it had an effect.
Almost like our money was setting the stage for a change in regime there.
[Protests originally erupted in November 2013 after Yanukovych refused to sign the association agreement with the EU at a meeting of the Eastern Partnership.., choosing closer ties with Russia instead. Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had asked for 20 billion (US$27 billion) in loans and aid. The EU was willing to offer 610 million ($838 million) in loans, but Russia was willing to offer $15 billion, as well as cheaper gas prices. In addition, the EU demanded major changes to Ukraine's regulations and laws, but Russia did not stipulate regulatory or legal adjustment of such nature or scale.
Yanukovych was widely disliked in Ukraine's west but had support in the east and south, where his native Russian is much more widely spoken.]
So the State Department & CIA poured billions into the country...though various NGOs...and made deep inroads in the political and economic system. (no debate about that...they have admitted it)
Then protests break out right after the government in Kyiv signs a longer term partnership with Russia and agrees to let the Russians extend the Black sea naval base lease in Crimea out until the 2040s
Then DC spooks and apparatchiks celebrate the protests/coup like it was an operation they personally planned.
Its all very very interesting....
Like I said maybe one day in about 40 years we will get some declassified docs released to the public letting us know the behind the seen story.
I think it is really strange that you think trying to help a former Communist country establish and develop Democratic principles and institutions is a waste of money and some type of nephrarious activity.
How do you know what that money was spent on?
Do you trust the people that run the State Department and the CIA to be true guardians of "democratic principles"
Have you not been watching what they have been doing in the US over the last few years?
Spying on Presidential campaigns...demanding censorship of views they don't like...calling their domestic conservative enemies "Nazis"
Get real buddy....
People like John Brennan should never ever be trusted...these are malevolent evil people
Russia itself declared its independence and got out of the USSR...so lets no quite give the CIA credit for brining Ukraine out of the Soviet Union.
And Ukraine has never been much of a democracy since its independence.
It constantly has ranked as one of the most corrupt countries on earth (economically and politically)
Its was ruled by mostly pro-Russia types and since 2014 by pro-Western ones.
And during that time plenty of bans on political parties, media, and independent voices
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799
If the CIA and State Department were really trying to install "democratic values" (which they almost certainly were not) then we can all admit they failed in a speculator fashion....the place as been an corrupt mud pit and economic basket case.
If you're comparing Ukraine to the U.S. and EUs, of course, they have a long way to go. If you're comparing Ukraine to South America, Africa, the Middle East, and much in between, they have done very well under the circumstances. And if not for Russia's meddling and invasions, they'd be doing even better.