Why Are We in Ukraine?

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whiterock
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 7:02a, 3/14/24
FLBear5630 said:
whiterock said:
KaiBear said:
J.R. said:
I'd rather support Ukraine full throttle. Cut off Israel and let them do protect themselves.




Cut off aid only to Israel ?

LOL

Suspect your lady friends influence you more than you'd ever care to admit.

I would cut off all foreign aid ….every last penny.

Then spend the money on our own poor, homeless and mentally ill citizens.
$7T budget, $3T in deficit, and we have people insisting that $74b in aid to Ukraine is causing the wheels to come off the Republic.

How about we zero out 100% of the Trillion devoted to Green New Deal nonsense?

To save a failing business, you have to cut the great big double digit numbers. That is simple math: fiddling around with the numbers after the decimal point will have no impact.
Ukraine is a rounding error...
...which forestalls enormous potential expenses of our direct involvement in a major land war in Europe against a nuclear capable enemy.

it's a spend which actually does have a clear benefit, unlike others which are completely immaterial, or worse.
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whiterock
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11:27a, 3/14/24
the policy critics have insisted this has never been Russian intentions. Oops…..


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sombear
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In reply to whiterock • 12:01p, 3/14/24
whiterock said:
the policy critics have insisted this has never been Russian intentions. Oops…..




I don't think they truly believed otherwise. This is what Putin and his cronies have been saying consistently and repeatedly forever. It's just easier to blame the U.S., NATO, Nazis, and the comedian to justify allowing Putin to massacre and take over a free country and people.
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J.R.
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In reply to Doc Holliday • 12:11p, 3/14/24
Doc Holliday said:
Why are we funding pensions with our latest Ukraine aid package?!

We're over here struggling to fund social security and we're paying foreigner pensions, literally doing this while printing money to pay down our interest.
Ok, I don't understand this. How are we funding pensions for anyone who doesn't work for the US/State Govt. How are we paying foreigner pensions? Never heard that before.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to J.R. • 12:34p, 3/14/24
J.R. said:
Doc Holliday said:
Why are we funding pensions with our latest Ukraine aid package?!

We're over here struggling to fund social security and we're paying foreigner pensions, literally doing this while printing money to pay down our interest.
Ok, I don't understand this. How are we funding pensions for anyone who doesn't work for the US/State Govt. How are we paying foreigner pensions? Never heard that before.
We aren't. The funds that the US is giving is being used by Ukraine to keep their society going, view it as Ukraine is cash flowing. But, because some money, once in the Ukrainian treasury, may be used to pay current programs.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to J.R. • 12:43p, 3/14/24
J.R. said:
Doc Holliday said:
Why are we funding pensions with our latest Ukraine aid package?!

We're over here struggling to fund social security and we're paying foreigner pensions, literally doing this while printing money to pay down our interest.
Ok, I don't understand this. How are we funding pensions for anyone who doesn't work for the US/State Govt. How are we paying foreigner pensions? Never heard that before.
US is giving the government of Ukraine billions.....Kyiv turns around and uses that money to pay pensions and civil servant salaries.

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/aug-08-2022-united-states-contributes-45-billion-support-government-ukraine

[The United States, through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) in coordination with the U.S. Department of the Treasury, is providing an additional $4.5 billion in direct budgetary support to the Government of Ukraine to help alleviate the acute budget deficit caused by Putin's brutal war of aggression. The Government of Ukraine will receive the funding in tranches, beginning with a $3 billion disbursement in August. This contribution was made possible with generous bipartisan support from Congress.]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/following-american-money-in-ukraine-60-minutes/

[The U.S. government is subsidizing small businesses in Ukraine, including Tatiana Abramova's knitwear company, to keep them afloat...

The U.S. government has also bought seeds and fertilizer for Ukrainian farmers. America is covering the salaries of Ukraine's first responders, all 57,000 of them...]
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J.R.
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1:03p, 3/14/24
Ok, makes sense. Hadn't heard that.
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Redbrickbear
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10:05a, 3/15/24
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



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Redbrickbear
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11:44a, 3/15/24
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ATL Bear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 8:58p, 3/15/24
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
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KaiBear
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9:18p, 3/15/24
Billions for Ukrainian politicians to line their pockets while our own veterans are living on the streets and committing suicide at record numbers.

Billions to Israel while fentanyl continues to pour across our open borders ; poisoning thousands of our citizens every month .


Billions to Jordan while millions of Americans are forced to move back in with their parents because they can no longer afford food AND rent.



Billions to Egypt while our cities continue to degenerate into 3rd world ****holes.




Insanity
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ATL Bear
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In reply to KaiBear • 3:01a, 3/16/24
KaiBear said:
Billions for Ukrainian politicians to line their pockets while our own veterans are living on the streets and committing suicide at record numbers.

Billions to Israel while fentanyl continues to pour across our open borders ; poisoning thousands of our citizens every month .


Billions to Jordan while millions of Americans are forced to move back in with their parents because they can no longer afford food AND rent.



Billions to Egypt while our cities continue to degenerate into 3rd world ****holes.




Insanity
Understand your border reference, but I'd argue that we have a culture problem and not a money problem with the other issues. I'm not sure there's any amount of money that could fix them, especially since we already spend hundreds of billions (even Trillions) on them already.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to ATL Bear • 8:50a, 3/16/24
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
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ATL Bear
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 9:44a, 3/16/24
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe and many seem to be upset about providing weapons to a European country resisting hostile invasion by a despot driven by historical manifest destiny. We've seen this act a couple of times before now.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to ATL Bear • 10:21a, 3/16/24
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe….


Well the America people have no interest in far off Eastern Europe (an area never in our alliance network and one under the control of Moscow for 300 plus years)

But I have no doubt some of our rulers have economic interests there….but the DC political class is not America



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FLBear5630
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In reply to ATL Bear • 10:24a, 3/16/24
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe and many seem to be upset about providing weapons to a European country resisting hostile invasion by a despot driven by historical manifest destiny. We've seen this act a couple of times before now.
True, but I never understood why we don't work better with South America and develop an Asian sort of work-force like Viet-Nam, Korea, Japan, Thailand, etc... We invest Europe and Asia, leave our backyard as a backwater...
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 10:34a, 3/16/24
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe and many seem to be upset about providing weapons to a European country resisting hostile invasion by a despot driven by historical manifest destiny. We've seen this act a couple of times before now.
True, but I never understood why we don't work better with South America and develop an Asian sort of work-force like Viet-Nam, Korea, Japan, Thailand, etc... We invest Europe and Asia, leave our backyard as a backwater...


Indeed…

I will have to go and find the article that talked about how there was a debate in DC/NYC about moving jobs to China and welcoming them into the WTO (world trade organization)


There was a debate among our political/financial elite about instead of getting in bed with Communist China the West should build up Latin America instead


I would love to know the story about how the "build up China" faction won
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 11:30a, 3/16/24
Redbrickbear said:
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe….


Well the America people have no interest in far off Eastern Europe (an area never in our alliance network and one under the control of Moscow for 300 plus years)

But I have no doubt some of our rulers have economic interests there….but the DC political class is not America



Benz outdid himself still again. I promise you, Haliburton lost 1000 times more business in Russia than it gained in Ukraine.

And I truly can't believe the new "right" is coopting the left's Haliburton BS. For anyone out there who does not know this already (and I have to think you know this, Red) Haliburton is one of a select few companies with the size and expertise in the oil/gas field service and related industries to handle major projects. Said another way, Haliburton, Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, and maybe one or two others will be involved in virtually every major international project.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to sombear • 11:49a, 3/16/24
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe….


Well the America people have no interest in far off Eastern Europe (an area never in our alliance network and one under the control of Moscow for 300 plus years)

But I have no doubt some of our rulers have economic interests there….but the DC political class is not America



Benz outdid himself still again. I promise you, Haliburton lost 1000 times more business in Russia than it gained in Ukraine.

And I truly can't believe the new "right" is coopting the left's Haliburton BS. For anyone out there who does not know this already (and I have to think you know this, Red) Haliburton is one of a select few companies with the size and expertise in the oil/gas field service and related industries to handle major projects. Said another way, Haliburton, Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, and maybe one or two others will be involved in virtually every major international project.


I can't speak to the private and secret financial moves our our elite…but it seems that for a corrupt Eastern European country that has never been an ally of ours….the elite in DC & NYC are strangely obsessed with Ukraine.

Almost like they have financial interest there…ones that average Americans don't have or care about



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ATL Bear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 12:30p, 3/16/24
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe….


Well the America people have no interest in far off Eastern Europe (an area never in our alliance network and one under the control of Moscow for 300 plus years)

But I have no doubt some of our rulers have economic interests there….but the DC political class is not America



Benz outdid himself still again. I promise you, Haliburton lost 1000 times more business in Russia than it gained in Ukraine.

And I truly can't believe the new "right" is coopting the left's Haliburton BS. For anyone out there who does not know this already (and I have to think you know this, Red) Haliburton is one of a select few companies with the size and expertise in the oil/gas field service and related industries to handle major projects. Said another way, Haliburton, Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, and maybe one or two others will be involved in virtually every major international project.


I can't speak to the private and secret financial moves our our elite…but it seems that for a corrupt Eastern European country that has never been an ally of ours….the elite in DC & NYC are strangely obsessed with Ukraine.

Almost like they have financial interest there…ones that average Americans don't have or care about



Average Americans can invest in Blackrock. Maybe if they focused more on something like that and not complain about someone else's wealth they could become less "average". But I know, that's crazy elitist talk.
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 12:32p, 3/16/24
You can't have it both ways. Either Ukraine is just a s _ _ _-hole country or it is so significant that it dictates the actions of the rich and powerful.

I despite Black Rock with every fiber, but they got involved well after the invasion. Would you rather have all those corrupt Ukrainians you complain so much about handle all the money we give them? Or maybe Nuland should be leading the effort?
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to sombear • 12:47p, 3/16/24
sombear said:
You can't have it both ways. Either Ukraine is just a s _ _ _-hole country or it is so significant that it dictates the actions of the rich and powerful.

I despite Black Rock with every fiber, but they got involved well after the invasion.



Afghanistan I think you would agree is a corrupt sh*t hole country with a backward peon population in thrall to fanatically Islamic beliefs…

Yet it also has massive mineral resources our economic elite would have liked to get their hands on.

So both can be true at the same time.

And Afghanistan was of no interest to the average American





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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 12:58p, 3/16/24
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
You can't have it both ways. Either Ukraine is just a s _ _ _-hole country or it is so significant that it dictates the actions of the rich and powerful.

I despite Black Rock with every fiber, but they got involved well after the invasion.



Afghanistan I think you would agree is a corrupt sh*t hole country with a backward peon population in thrall to fanatically Islamic beliefs…

Yet it also has massive mineral resources our economic elite would have liked to get their hands on.

So both can be true at the same time.

And Afghanistan was of no interest to the average American







Well there's that pesky little fact that they attacked America.

Edit: and BTW I know first hand most of those resources cannot be extracted.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to sombear • 1:18p, 3/16/24
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
You can't have it both ways. Either Ukraine is just a s _ _ _-hole country or it is so significant that it dictates the actions of the rich and powerful.

I despite Black Rock with every fiber, but they got involved well after the invasion.



Afghanistan I think you would agree is a corrupt sh*t hole country with a backward peon population in thrall to fanatically Islamic beliefs…

Yet it also has massive mineral resources our economic elite would have liked to get their hands on.

So both can be true at the same time.

And Afghanistan was of no interest to the average American







Well there's that pesky little fact that they attacked America.

.



You seem to bringing up things that have nothing to do with content of my post.

I never said they did not attack us

You implied a country could not be a corrupt sh*t hole and also important to a select portion of our economic elite.

I gave you Afghanistan as an example of such a place.

I could have also used Nigeria as an example of such a place


[Nigeria is among countries in Africa with a wide variety of different natural resources. The country is richly endowed with natural resources ranging from large oil reserves to industrial metals and various precious stones such as Barites, Gypsum, Kaolin and Marble. ]
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boognish_bear
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1:54p, 3/16/24
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boognish_bear
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 2:47p, 3/16/24
I misinterpreted your point on that one.
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6:46p, 3/16/24
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11:14p, 3/16/24
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whiterock
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 5:49a, 3/17/24
Redbrickbear said:
Meirsheimer will end up being a case study on how highly intelligent and knowledgeable people can get it totally wrong, just to try to make a point.

He's making the same error that Democrats are making on Iran = just because, in an ideal world, Iran/Russia would be a great ally against our foremost foreign policy threat does not mean that we are obligated to tolerate any/all bad behavior on their part, OR that those powers perceive their own interests to be in alliance with ours. Sure, we have tolerated a lot of bad behavior from allies in the past, and will do so in the future, but that is a case of a very small ally doing very small amounts of harm, not nations who actually could destroy (in the case of Russia), or inflict grievous harm (Iran) against us, or totally destabilize regional relationships which profoundly affect our existing military and economic interests (Russia and Iran).

Any cursory reading of Russian history all the way back to the Kievan Rus period will show that Russia's default position is to prepare for war with the west and pay tribute to the east. That is EXACTLY the situation now.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 9:32a, 3/17/24
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
FLBear5630 said:
ATL Bear said:
Redbrickbear said:
If Latin America is "our neighborhood" and it of course is....and if we have a right to have geo-political security and preeminence in that region....then why is Ukraine not in Russia's neighborhood?



This idiot is making some inference about the General over US Southern Command making comments about the regions she is responsible for? And you're tying Ukraine and Russia to what?
There is more of a nexus between Southern Command's area of responsibility and US support than Ukraine by a long shot. There is no way we should be letting China or Russia into the Western Hemisphere.

In a world where China is expanding, we should be investing in Southern Command and investing in those Nations to create a secure Western Hemisphere.

As for those that seem SOOO concerned with fairness to Russia and China, control your area where they don't ask us for help. If they ask, we should help.

We have not invested enough in South America. If China comes there, it is OUR fault for letting them and giving them the opportunity.
We have quite an "investment" and interest in Europe and many seem to be upset about providing weapons to a European country resisting hostile invasion by a despot driven by historical manifest destiny. We've seen this act a couple of times before now.
True, but I never understood why we don't work better with South America and develop an Asian sort of work-force like Viet-Nam, Korea, Japan, Thailand, etc... We invest Europe and Asia, leave our backyard as a backwater...


Indeed…

I will have to go and find the article that talked about how there was a debate in DC/NYC about moving jobs to China and welcoming them into the WTO (world trade organization)


There was a debate among our political/financial elite about instead of getting in bed with Communist China the West should build up Latin America instead


I would love to know the story about how the "build up China" faction won
See, there are areas we agree!

Me too, invest in our Hemisphere. It simplifies everything from logistics, defense, etc... China make no bones about saying they own Asia...

Question is what Nation in South America is big on education? From what I can see it would have to be Argentina or Chile. Brazil is an Ag powerhouse, but I don't know much about their tech side. To me, that is what Teddy Roosevelt would do in today's world, build up Canada, Mexico and South America and the US keep its defense under our wing.
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KaiBear
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11:17p, 3/17/24
End the war now….while Ukraine still has the semblance of an army.

Give up a little territory now or lose the whole country within 16 months.
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whiterock
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In reply to KaiBear • 5:46a, 3/18/24
KaiBear said:
End the war now….while Ukraine still has the semblance of an army.

Give up a little territory now or lose the whole country within 16 months.
Victory goes to the general who commits his reserve last. Russia has. Nato has not........
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KaiBear
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6:51a, 3/18/24
NATO is a shell.

There is zero willingness of any of the NATO populations to fight and die for Ukraine or even other each other .

The combat readiness of almost every NATO country is non existent.

Ukraine is running out of resources; especially in manpower .


Meanwhile Russia's infrastructure has barely been touched .
The vaunted economic sanctions a complete joke.


By any measure Russia is winning this war and as a result Ukraine needs to reach an accord while they still can salvage their sovereignty.
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