Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

Is Russia promoting the anti-white,communist LGBTQ+ agenda like the European Union?

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

Is Russia promoting the anti-white,communist LGBTQ+ agenda like the European Union?

---

Not that I am aware of. So, I take it from you response, this is the only important criteria to you to justify Russia expanding its territory and power, unchecked?

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

Our interests are being served in the same way an unruly child's interests are sometimes served by a good swat to the behind. The world needs stability in Ukraine, whether the US wants it or not, and Russia will at least provide that if we can learn to accept it.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

Our interests are being served in the same way an unruly child's interests are sometimes served by a good swat to the behind. The world needs stability in Ukraine, whether the US wants it or not, and Russia will at least provide that if we can learn to accept it.

---

LOL absurd Russian propaganda.

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

The relationship between Ukraine and Russia is irrelevant to the interests of the overwhelming majority of Americans.

It is absolutely not worth spending one dollar - and certainly not one drop of blood - on.

Funding a proxy war that sees an entire generation of young Ukrainians destroyed is immoral.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

Our interests are being served in the same way an unruly child's interests are sometimes served by a good swat to the behind. The world needs stability in Ukraine, whether the US wants it or not, and Russia will at least provide that if we can learn to accept it.

---

So, Russia restoring law and order to a country that lacks same due to the Russian invasion is a good thing, in your book? And it will give old Uncle Sam the black eye it so richly deserves by making Russia more powerful and emboldened?

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

Ukraine never declared war on Russia. The closest real world example of the relationship between the Ukrainian military and Russians in Donbass and Lugansk is Hamas and Israelis, with the Ukrainians playing the role of Hamas.

After spending many years seeking a political solution to this, the Russians decided a military solution was the only way to stop it, much as the IDF did.

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

The relationship between Ukraine and Russia is irrelevant to the interests of the overwhelming majority of Americans.

It is absolutely not worth spending one dollar - and certainly not one drop of blood - on.

Funding a proxy war that sees an entire generation of young Ukrainians destroyed is immoral.

---

Fair enough. So we can put you in the - I just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources category?

Realitybites said:

---

Ukraine never declared war on Russia.

---

Indeed it did not. Some of the doofuses on this thread believe otherwise, however.

Realitybites said:

---

The closest real world example of the relationship between the Ukrainian military and Russians in Donbass and Lugansk is Hamas and Israelis, with the Ukrainians playing the role of Hamas.

---

ROFL, no, shill.

Mothra said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

For those who are in favor of withdrawing all funding and weaponry from the Ukrainian war, I am curious as to whether you believe Russia annexing, Ukraine somehow serves American strategic interests. I am curious whether you see Russia, expanding its territory is a good thing. Or is it you just don't care and it's not worth the money and resources?

---

Is Russia promoting the anti-white,communist LGBTQ+ agenda like the European Union?

---

Not that I am aware of. So, I take it from you response, this is the only important criteria to you to justify Russia expanding its territory and power, unchecked?

---

It wasnt the Russians who bombed the Serbs when they were fighting off the muslim invasion of Europe in Kosovo.

It wasnt Russia telling EU members they have to accept refugees and displace their native populations.

It wasnt Russia forcing LGBTQ+ policies on its member states.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

No it's not. Yours was a stupid and inaccurate take. Best just to admit the error instead of belaboring the obvious.

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

---

What if Israel invaded parts of Palestine and took the West Bank territory, would Palestinians fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Israel in your book?

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

No it's not. Yours was a stupid and inaccurate take. Best just to admit the error instead of belaboring the obvious.

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

---

If the Mexican government invaded Texas I would consider it a declaration of war.

Mothra said:

---

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

---

Those are good points but Russia is not going to take over the entirety of Europe.

That is why we have NATO (and not one has said we should disband the military alliance)

No country in Europe wants to be tied to Moscow (not even Serbia anymore).

So the Russian threat is overstated.

Ukraine (like Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan) falls into a different category of states already in the Russian sphere of orbit.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

No it's not. Yours was a stupid and inaccurate take. Best just to admit the error instead of belaboring the obvious.

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

---

If the Mexican government invaded Texas I would consider it a declaration of war.

---

What if they just ejected their poor serf populations from Chiapas, Oaxaca, and Guerrero into Texas in giant demographic waves?

Do invasions only take place with a uniformed army invades?

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

---

What if Israel invaded parts of Palestine and took the West Bank territory, would Palestinians fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Israel in your book?

---

Palestine has never been a defined state, much less a sovereign nation. The West Bank territory isn't even a part of Israel. Do I think Israel has engaged in unnecessary provocations by settling there? Sure. But it didn't invade a land that belonged to someone else and incorporated the territory as its own.

Now, as for my question, care to answer?

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

No it's not. Yours was a stupid and inaccurate take. Best just to admit the error instead of belaboring the obvious.

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

---

If the Mexican government invaded Texas I would consider it a declaration of war.

---

So you would consider it an act of war by Mexico, or Texas for defending its territory?

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

---

Those are good points but Russia is not going to take over the entirety of Europe.

That is why we have NATO (and not one has said we should disband the military alliance)

No country in Europe wants to be tied to Moscow (not even Serbia anymore).

So the Russian threat is overstated.

Ukraine (like Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan) falls into a different category of states already in the Russian sphere of orbit.

---

I don't disagree with any of this, which is why I've said from the beginning the parties should be looking for an off ramp that likely includes Russia taking some of the territory it conquered and annexed, instead of the bellicose path the Biden admin has taken.

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

---

Those are good points but Russia is not going to take over the entirety of Europe.

That is why we have NATO (and not one has said we should disband the military alliance)

No country in Europe wants to be tied to Moscow (not even Serbia anymore).

So the Russian threat is overstated.

Ukraine (like Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan) falls into a different category of states already in the Russian sphere of orbit.

---

I don't disagree with any of this, which is why I've said from the beginning the parties should be looking for an off ramp that likely includes Russia taking some of the territory it conquered and annexed, instead of the bellicose path the Biden admin has taken.

---

Agree,

I am just very frightened that there seems to be no off ramp...and these thing could escalate to nuclear war.

DC (and even the EU) don't seem to be demanding that Ukraine negotiate.

The loons in Moocow apparently are not interesting in anything but regime change in Kyiv (which they can not accomplish)

This thing seems to be getting out of control...

Mothra said:

---

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

---

Putin has called for peace talks.

He already has all the territory he wanted.

Now we are the aggressors refusing to come to the table to talk peace.

Crimea has some value sure, but even the Ukrainians dont really give a **** about Luhansk and Dontesk.

This is all besides the fact that I think Zelensky would go along with the American/EU policy of turning Ukranian kids into gender fluid, mentally ill, communists.

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. They burned ethnic Russians alive and laughed about it.

That was stupid and evil.

Not letting Putin have the Russian enclaves was stupid by Ukraine, and forcing Ukraine into was evil by the United States. https://t.co/E8sE0TtrZd

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 21, 2024

---

With all the Russian propaganda spewed over the last 2 years, this is the first I've seen someone actually claim Ukraine declared war on Russia in 2014. Totally unhinged.

---

They did.

Can we please acknowledge all of the western hate for Ukraine in the past decade +?

---

At no point has Ukraine ever declared war on Russia. The closest you can come is the Ukraine parliament declared Russia, a terrorist state in 2022.

It is remarkable to me some of the bull**** propaganda you guys buy, when a simple, google search would tell you it's bull*****

---

Majority of Crimea wanted to join Russia. Half of Ukraine wanted to stay close to Russia, then the US funded a color revolution in 2014. All of this is easily verified.

In 2014, there was a coup, they started persecuting those who did not accept the coup, and it was indeed a coup, they created a threat to Crimea.

They launched a war in Donbass in 2014 with the use of aircraft and artillery against civilians.

This is when it started.

---

So, in other words, what you said was complete and total bull***** There was not, and never has been a Declaration of War.

We can debate the causes of the 2014 war and have. We can debate whether 2014 was in fact a "coup" or the voluntary resignation of a highly unpopular and corrupt president who was beating, jailing and killing protestors, and easily succumbed to Russia pressure. We can debate how much of a role America played in it financially (not very much, incidentally) and militarily (none). We can debate whether a majority of those living in Crimea supporting closer ties with Russia justified the Russian invasion of sovereign country, the killing of Ukrainian solders, and annexation of its territory.

But what we cannot debate is that Ukraine declared war on Russia. That never happened.

---

Declaration of war is actual war, not a letter or statement.

---

Tell me, if Mexico invaded South Texas and annexed parts of Texas' territory, would Texans fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Mexico in your book?

---

What if Israel invaded parts of Palestine and took the West Bank territory, would Palestinians fighting to take it back be a "declaration of war" on Israel in your book?

---

Palestine has never been a defined state, much less a sovereign nation. The West Bank territory isn't even a part of Israel. Do I think Israel has engaged in unnecessary provocations by settling there? Sure. But it didn't invade a land that belonged to someone else and incorporated the territory as its own.

Now, as for my question, care to answer?

---

Just an interesting way to think about it.

Certainly I think a Mexican army invading Texas is an act of war. So is the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

(Or the USA invasion of Iraq for that matter)

*PS

Palestine not a nation because the USA keeps vetoing its creation at the UN

https://time.com/6968956/us-veto-vote-palestine-full-un-membership/

[The U.S. blocked on Thursday a draft resolution that would have allowed the United Nations General Assembly to vote on allowing a Palestinian state to become a full member state of the U.N. The move has triggered backlash from other states...

The U.S. was the only nation in the 15-member U.N. Security Council to vote against the resolution. Twelve including Russia, China, France, and Japan voted in favor, while two- the U.K. and Switzerland abstained.

While not a full member, Palestine has been a Permanent Observer at the U.N. since 2012,]

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

---

Those are good points but Russia is not going to take over the entirety of Europe.

That is why we have NATO (and not one has said we should disband the military alliance)

No country in Europe wants to be tied to Moscow (not even Serbia anymore).

So the Russian threat is overstated.

Ukraine (like Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan) falls into a different category of states already in the Russian sphere of orbit.

---

I don't disagree with any of this, which is why I've said from the beginning the parties should be looking for an off ramp that likely includes Russia taking some of the territory it conquered and annexed, instead of the bellicose path the Biden admin has taken.

---

Agree,

I am just very frightened that there seems to be no off ramp...and these thing could escalate to nuclear war.

DC (and even the EU) don't seem to be demanding that Ukraine negotiate.

The loons in Moocow apparently are not interesting in anything but regime change in Kyiv (which they can not accomplish)

This thing seems to be getting out of control...

---

Agreed.

ATL Bear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:

Waltz: How much do you think the Air Force pays for this bag of bushings?

Sec. Kendall: I don't know.

Waltz: $90,000.

pic.twitter.com/9WwmkP3MVr

— Daily Caller (@DailyCaller) April 17, 2024

---

add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.

---

If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?

---

Great point

---

Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.

---

You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.

---

Entitlement programs are absolutely the worst fiscal drain we have. No argument there.

It's the hypocrisy I'm trying to point out.

This was a $77B slush fund in the Ukrainian supplemental ($61B in budget outlays + $16B blank check for drawdowns & loans for any foreign country or intl organization), only $13.8B - somewhat direct military aid. That while we can't get border funding or immigration solved because "it costs too much".

America last is the status quo. Y'all are completely fine with it, and you're in lockstep with the establishment whose responsible for our fiscal disaster of a country.

Look at these psychopaths:

🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/N1bYNnRMYx

— 🇺🇦Ukrainian Front (@front_ukrainian) April 20, 2024

---

I never considered Russia first as America last, but given some of the opines around here, I may have to reconsider. I view America first as to be a leader in the world. You surrender guys flinging around the coward label has to be one of the more ironic things I've witnessed.

---

I agree with you. America needs to lead the way and we are the shining City on the hill. If we won't step up, who will?
.
It appears the only way to be Patriotic or pro-America is to hate on the US and our institutions. How we think, doesn't seem to exist anymore.

---

Come on. Being an arms supplier and financier isn't leadership in any really meaning of the word.

Leadership is about risk taking and sacrifice. If our way of life is truly at risk here, real leadership would be putting troops at risk. And we all KNOW this admin and Congress will never do that. So either the risk is not real or we are not leading the way.

---

The risk can be real without the requirement of American blood. We fight risks daily that don't require blood of our own. But this new found cowardice for the smallest of sacrifice has me confounded, especially when the justifications seem to have an air of favoritism to the things and entities we used to find abhorrent.

---

Many don't find this persuasive. We're told we must run up the bill to fund the Ukrainian fight and prop them up in what increasing looks like an unwinnable confrontation because nothing less than the entire West is as stake in this fight. Meanwhile, Ukraine is clearly being restrained in its fight for its very existence (see Anthony Blinken scared to death in front of cameras when Ukraine recently started attacking refineries inside of Russia).

Yes, threats run along a spectrum. Finance and arms may be appropriate leadership when allies are dealing with internal insurrection, terrorism or drug cartels. But for what we are told is an existential fight in the Ukraine where nothing less than America's status as a unipolar leader and the entire West is at stake . . . money and ammo? Kinda makes it hard to believe that this is an existential war with super high stakes when nobody in leadership positions in the west is governing like it. Instead western leaders are acting like their respective next election is more important. Does that sound existential to you?

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I don't disagree that we have certain ideological similarities with the Russians. But I don't think you can discount all of the bad because we and the Russians agree on certain things.

Hell, I am probably closer aligned with an Islamic Jihadist on LGBTQ issues than I am with a radical leftist. Doesn't mean I want them to take over the ME.

---

This is all besides the fact that I think Zelensky would go along with the American/EU policy of turning Ukranian kids into gender fluid, mentally ill, communists.

---

I am not sure about this. Even Europe is pushing back on the gender fluid bull***** Hell, we are the outlier among Western nations, in that regard.

DallasBear9902 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:

Waltz: How much do you think the Air Force pays for this bag of bushings?

Sec. Kendall: I don't know.

Waltz: $90,000.

pic.twitter.com/9WwmkP3MVr

— Daily Caller (@DailyCaller) April 17, 2024

---

add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.

---

If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?

---

Great point

---

Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.

---

You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.

---

Entitlement programs are absolutely the worst fiscal drain we have. No argument there.

It's the hypocrisy I'm trying to point out.

This was a $77B slush fund in the Ukrainian supplemental ($61B in budget outlays + $16B blank check for drawdowns & loans for any foreign country or intl organization), only $13.8B - somewhat direct military aid. That while we can't get border funding or immigration solved because "it costs too much".

America last is the status quo. Y'all are completely fine with it, and you're in lockstep with the establishment whose responsible for our fiscal disaster of a country.

Look at these psychopaths:

🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/N1bYNnRMYx

— 🇺🇦Ukrainian Front (@front_ukrainian) April 20, 2024

---

I never considered Russia first as America last, but given some of the opines around here, I may have to reconsider. I view America first as to be a leader in the world. You surrender guys flinging around the coward label has to be one of the more ironic things I've witnessed.

---

I agree with you. America needs to lead the way and we are the shining City on the hill. If we won't step up, who will?
.
It appears the only way to be Patriotic or pro-America is to hate on the US and our institutions. How we think, doesn't seem to exist anymore.

---

Come on. Being an arms supplier and financier isn't leadership in any really meaning of the word.

Leadership is about risk taking and sacrifice. If our way of life is truly at risk here, real leadership would be putting troops at risk. And we all KNOW this admin and Congress will never do that. So either the risk is not real or we are not leading the way.

---

The risk can be real without the requirement of American blood. We fight risks daily that don't require blood of our own. But this new found cowardice for the smallest of sacrifice has me confounded, especially when the justifications seem to have an air of favoritism to the things and entities we used to find abhorrent.

---

Many don't find this persuasive. We're told we must run up the bill to fund the Ukrainian fight and prop them up in what increasing looks like an unwinnable confrontation because nothing less than the entire West is as stake in this fight. Meanwhile, Ukraine is clearly being restrained in its fight for its very existence (see Anthony Blinken scared to death in front of cameras when Ukraine recently started attacking refineries inside of Russia).

Yes, threats run along a spectrum. Finance and arms may be appropriate leadership when allies are dealing with internal insurrection, terrorism or drug cartels. But for what we are told is an existential fight in the Ukraine where nothing less than America's status as a unipolar leader and the entire West is at stake . . . money and ammo? Kinda makes it hard to believe that this is an existential war with super high stakes when nobody in leadership positions in the west is governing like it. Instead western leaders are acting like their respective next election is more important. Does that sound existential to you?

---

Yea you have to wonder how it can be successfully without US troops in the fight.

[Money Down A Ukrainian Rathole:

US supporters of Ukraine are probably still basking in the Slava Ukraini glow from the House's vote this past weekend. Allow Philip Pilkington to cast a shadow of realism across your smiling faces:

Quote:

---

The second problem is a military one. First of all, the Ukrainians are experiencing a personnel crisis. They have already sent much of their male population to the frontline (to be killed or injured) and they are now having trouble pressing more men into service. Obviously, an aid bill cannot help with this grim reality. Secondly, they have severe weapons and ammunition shortages. American lawmakers say that the aid package will solve this by providing more weapons, but the reality is that these weapons do not exist because the Western powers lack the industrial power to produce them.
This is where the potential for a legitimacy crisis comes in. Supporters of the package have now promised that it will keep the Russian army at bay. Yet it is becoming increasingly clear that Ukrainian defence lines are buckling and there is even chatter that the city of Kharkiv might fall to the Russians in the coming weeks. Some are speculating that Russia might be gearing up for a major offensive either in spring or summer.
If Russia does start to take major amounts of territory or, worse, if the Ukrainian frontline collapses altogether then the American public will watch the promises used to justify the aid package collapse in real time.

---

Do you understand what he's saying? All that money cannot buy Ukrainian soldiers who don't exist, nor can it buy weapons that haven't been built yet. So, when Ukraine falls to Russia later this year, what happens when the American people see that all this money was wasted and that US lawmakers had every reason to know that it could not win the war for Ukraine, because Ukraine's problems are beyond the ability of money to solve?
To put a finer point on it: what happens when the American people begin to understand that the ruling class including many Republicans in Washington spent tens of billions of dollars that could have been used (say) to protect the ungoverned US southern border, instead of Ukraine's border with Russia … and have nothing to show for it?]

Redbrickbear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:

Waltz: How much do you think the Air Force pays for this bag of bushings?

Sec. Kendall: I don't know.

Waltz: $90,000.

pic.twitter.com/9WwmkP3MVr

— Daily Caller (@DailyCaller) April 17, 2024

---

add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.

---

If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?

---

Great point

---

Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.

---

You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.

---

Entitlement programs are absolutely the worst fiscal drain we have. No argument there.

It's the hypocrisy I'm trying to point out.

This was a $77B slush fund in the Ukrainian supplemental ($61B in budget outlays + $16B blank check for drawdowns & loans for any foreign country or intl organization), only $13.8B - somewhat direct military aid. That while we can't get border funding or immigration solved because "it costs too much".

America last is the status quo. Y'all are completely fine with it, and you're in lockstep with the establishment whose responsible for our fiscal disaster of a country.

Look at these psychopaths:

🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/N1bYNnRMYx

— 🇺🇦Ukrainian Front (@front_ukrainian) April 20, 2024

---

I never considered Russia first as America last, but given some of the opines around here, I may have to reconsider. I view America first as to be a leader in the world. You surrender guys flinging around the coward label has to be one of the more ironic things I've witnessed.

---

I agree with you. America needs to lead the way and we are the shining City on the hill. If we won't step up, who will?
.
It appears the only way to be Patriotic or pro-America is to hate on the US and our institutions. How we think, doesn't seem to exist anymore.

---

Come on. Being an arms supplier and financier isn't leadership in any really meaning of the word.

Leadership is about risk taking and sacrifice. If our way of life is truly at risk here, real leadership would be putting troops at risk. And we all KNOW this admin and Congress will never do that. So either the risk is not real or we are not leading the way.

---

The risk can be real without the requirement of American blood. We fight risks daily that don't require blood of our own. But this new found cowardice for the smallest of sacrifice has me confounded, especially when the justifications seem to have an air of favoritism to the things and entities we used to find abhorrent.

---

Many don't find this persuasive. We're told we must run up the bill to fund the Ukrainian fight and prop them up in what increasing looks like an unwinnable confrontation because nothing less than the entire West is as stake in this fight. Meanwhile, Ukraine is clearly being restrained in its fight for its very existence (see Anthony Blinken scared to death in front of cameras when Ukraine recently started attacking refineries inside of Russia).

Yes, threats run along a spectrum. Finance and arms may be appropriate leadership when allies are dealing with internal insurrection, terrorism or drug cartels. But for what we are told is an existential fight in the Ukraine where nothing less than America's status as a unipolar leader and the entire West is at stake . . . money and ammo? Kinda makes it hard to believe that this is an existential war with super high stakes when nobody in leadership positions in the west is governing like it. Instead western leaders are acting like their respective next election is more important. Does that sound existential to you?

---

Do you understand what he's saying? All that money cannot buy Ukrainian soldiers who don't exist, nor can it buy weapons that haven't been built yet. So, when Ukraine falls to Russia later this year, what happens when the American people see that all this money was wasted and that US lawmakers had every reason to know that it could not win the war for Ukraine, because Ukraine's problems are beyond the ability of money to solve?
To put a finer point on it: what happens when the American people begin to understand that the ruling class including many Republicans in Washington spent tens of billions of dollars that could have been used (say) to protect the ungoverned US southern border, instead of Ukraine's border with Russia … and have nothing to show for it?]

---

Its insane to me that they don't realize their arguments make no sense. Two weeks ago we're told that Russia is losing the war and is a failed state. Now we're being told that unless we give Ukraine several billion dollars that Putin will march across Europe. It's a clown show. Their assertions negate one another.

When this doesn't pan out like they want it to, they're going to act like they never supported it just like they act like they never supported "nation building' and trillions spent in the middle east. The same people that squandered nearly $8T in Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria are in control of this operation. Their track record is horrible.

Zelensky's position is that Ukraine won't negotiate until Russia withdraws all of its troops, which is a stupid position to take.

The biggest issue is westerners not understanding that either side giving up is a suicide mission for its leaders. If Putin gives up, he will be removed/gulaged, same for Zelensky: that's how it works in the east. Neither are willing to move towards peace.

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Making war is also a legitimate function of government. We sent an expeditionary force to Africa in our earliest days to defend our interests.

---

By "interests", you mean when the Barbary Coast Pirates were intercepting US flagged merchant vessels and killing or capturing US citizens as slaves. Point out where that is occurring on earth right now, and we can have a discussion about declaring war and invading that country. Maybe Somalia?

50, not 40, typo. Nothing else you've said really contradicts my point. At a time when most Americans don't have access to 1,000 for an emergency, Federal .gov retirements are unbelievable rich.

whiterock said:

---

Degrading the Russian war machine is necessary because Russia has pointedly not joined the modern age

---

In other words, a nuclear armed traditional Christian nation that doesnt embrace the vision of Soros/the WEF/the Democrats and won't fly the freak flag at its embassies or embrace third wave feminism.

At least Democrats (the same ones who feted the USSR for decades, remember?) have a philosophical antipathy behind their hatred of modern Russia. GOP neocons are just doing the bidding of their lobbyists.

Quote:

---

continues to send its armies across borders with its neighbors, with a stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR, which of course involves a number of Nato members with whom we trade and are obligated to defend. Just mind-numbingly stupid to say Russia poses no threat to us, or that we have zero interest in what happens in Ukraine.

---

You are talking about Lugansk, Donbass, and Ossetia here. Not rolling into Berlin. Modern Russia has no desire to rule Poles or Germans.

Quote:

---

As a member of Nato, we have the exact same interests as NATO

---

Then we should get out of NATO. But that would really upset the lobbyists at Boeing and Lockheed.

---

So to enter a coalition you have to have the exact same interests? Why enter into a coalition? NATO sees protecting Ukraine from Russian invasion important. The US is the only one that can step up and make a real difference. If NATO asks, we should say no? There is another than could make a difference, do we want China in Europe?

Isn't the purpose of a coalition to protect each other even IF all the interests don't align? Who wants to be in a coalition with someone that only wants you to protect their interest, but when you ask them to help with something that may not be a direct need?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

Making war is also a legitimate function of government. We sent an expeditionary force to Africa in our earliest days to defend our interests.

---

By "interests", you mean when the Barbary Coast Pirates were intercepting US flagged merchant vessels and killing or capturing US citizens as slaves. Point out where that is occurring on earth right now, and we can have a discussion about declaring war and invading that country. Maybe Somalia?

50, not 40, typo. Nothing else you've said really contradicts my point. At a time when most Americans don't have access to 1,000 for an emergency, Federal .gov retirements are unbelievable rich.

whiterock said:

---

Degrading the Russian war machine is necessary because Russia has pointedly not joined the modern age

---

In other words, a nuclear armed traditional Christian nation that doesnt embrace the vision of Soros/the WEF/the Democrats and won't fly the freak flag at its embassies or embrace third wave feminism.

At least Democrats (the same ones who feted the USSR for decades, remember?) have a philosophical antipathy behind their hatred of modern Russia. GOP neocons are just doing the bidding of their lobbyists.

Quote:

---

continues to send its armies across borders with its neighbors, with a stated intent of reconstituting the footprint of the former USSR, which of course involves a number of Nato members with whom we trade and are obligated to defend. Just mind-numbingly stupid to say Russia poses no threat to us, or that we have zero interest in what happens in Ukraine.

---

You are talking about Lugansk, Donbass, and Ossetia here. Not rolling into Berlin. Modern Russia has no desire to rule Poles or Germans.

Quote:

---

As a member of Nato, we have the exact same interests as NATO

---

Then we should get out of NATO. But that would really upset the lobbyists at Boeing and Lockheed.

---

So to enter a coalition you have to have the exact same interests? Why enter into a coalition? NATO sees protecting Ukraine from Russian invasion important. The US is the only one that can step up and make a real difference. If NATO asks, we should say no?

---

Absolutely.

I have long be a supporter of keeping NATO active (and even of creating a Pacific type NATO alliance)

But NATO has to be held in check by rational persons as well.

Expansion into Ukraine & Georgia was always going to lead to disaster.

And NATO getting involved in the Libyan civil war was another example of mission creep and getting involved in a place that was NOT a necessary NATO commitment.

We have to stick to the actual mission of the organization...

[Formed in 1949 with the signing of the Washington Treaty, NATO is a security alliance of 30 countries from North America and Europe. NATO's fundamental goal is to safeguard the Allied members freedom and security... NATO remains the principal security instrument of the transatlantic community and expression of its common democratic values

Article Five of the treaty states that if an armed attack occurs against one of the member states, it should be considered an attack against all members, and other members shall assist the attacked member, with armed forces if necessary]

DallasBear9902 said:

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ATL Bear said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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whiterock said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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You can have your wars…but this BS has got to stop:

Waltz: How much do you think the Air Force pays for this bag of bushings?

Sec. Kendall: I don't know.

Waltz: $90,000.

pic.twitter.com/9WwmkP3MVr

— Daily Caller (@DailyCaller) April 17, 2024

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add this to the stories of four-digit hammers and five-digit toilet seats...... It's what happens when you place cost controls on the big-ticket parts of the program. It causes allocation of expenses into the margins.

If this was a case of garden-variety bilking, we would not be seeing steady trends of consolidation in our defense industrial base.

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If global hegemony domination means we turn into a quasi socialist country made of wage slaves forking over financial freedom…then what is the point of global hegemony?

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Great point

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Thanks

I kind of see it like selling our soul. We're willing to drop trillions on Ukraine and any other war/s in order to supposedly dominate Russia or other countries that pose a threat to western dominance and in process of doing so we print trillions further devaluing the dollar by creating insane inflation.

We "succeed" in war efforts at the cost of destroying our middle class, in effect it's like we're becoming that which we're fighting against.

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You guys are distracted. In 2022 we spent $4.5 Trillion on medical services of which 90% was paid for by private insurance (highly subsidized/regulated industry) or the preponderance by Medicare and Medicaid. A number that rises at a 4-8% clip annually regardless of inflation. Check it out. How much of your income goes toward Ukraine versus the healthcare costs of others from your private insurance to your Medicare tax to your income tax that gets allocated to Medicaid? If there's a "MIC" you're a wage slave to it's the Medical/Healthcare Industrial Complex.

That is if we want to have an honest conversation about fiscal concerns.

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Entitlement programs are absolutely the worst fiscal drain we have. No argument there.

It's the hypocrisy I'm trying to point out.

This was a $77B slush fund in the Ukrainian supplemental ($61B in budget outlays + $16B blank check for drawdowns & loans for any foreign country or intl organization), only $13.8B - somewhat direct military aid. That while we can't get border funding or immigration solved because "it costs too much".

America last is the status quo. Y'all are completely fine with it, and you're in lockstep with the establishment whose responsible for our fiscal disaster of a country.

Look at these psychopaths:

🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/N1bYNnRMYx

— 🇺🇦Ukrainian Front (@front_ukrainian) April 20, 2024

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I never considered Russia first as America last, but given some of the opines around here, I may have to reconsider. I view America first as to be a leader in the world. You surrender guys flinging around the coward label has to be one of the more ironic things I've witnessed.

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I agree with you. America needs to lead the way and we are the shining City on the hill. If we won't step up, who will?
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It appears the only way to be Patriotic or pro-America is to hate on the US and our institutions. How we think, doesn't seem to exist anymore.

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Come on. Being an arms supplier and financier isn't leadership in any really meaning of the word.

Leadership is about risk taking and sacrifice. If our way of life is truly at risk here, real leadership would be putting troops at risk. And we all KNOW this admin and Congress will never do that. So either the risk is not real or we are not leading the way.

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The risk can be real without the requirement of American blood. We fight risks daily that don't require blood of our own. But this new found cowardice for the smallest of sacrifice has me confounded, especially when the justifications seem to have an air of favoritism to the things and entities we used to find abhorrent.

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Many don't find this persuasive. We're told we must run up the bill to fund the Ukrainian fight and prop them up in what increasing looks like an unwinnable confrontation because nothing less than the entire West is as stake in this fight. Meanwhile, Ukraine is clearly being restrained in its fight for its very existence (see Anthony Blinken scared to death in front of cameras when Ukraine recently started attacking refineries inside of Russia).

Yes, threats run along a spectrum. Finance and arms may be appropriate leadership when allies are dealing with internal insurrection, terrorism or drug cartels. But for what we are told is an existential fight in the Ukraine where nothing less than America's status as a unipolar leader and the entire West is at stake . . . money and ammo? Kinda makes it hard to believe that this is an existential war with super high stakes when nobody in leadership positions in the west is governing like it. Instead western leaders are acting like their respective next election is more important. Does that sound existential to you?

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I would parse the domestic political war from the actual war, because politicians are always looking out for their next election.

Of course Russia invading Ukraine to stop it from joining the EU and aligning with the West is an existential threat. Its military campaign began in 2014 and obviously escalated tremendously in 2022. Prior to that it was a soft war with attempts to assassinate rivals to favored candidates (both a Kuchma rival and the better known Yushchenko poisoning), acts of suppression inter Ukraine, and the black hand of Russian and Putin aligned oligarchs for decades. Ukraine has been boxed in from breaking away from Russia, unlike other former Soviet satellites, pretty much since the USSR collapse. But I don't believe the threat was considered that great until Russia moved on Crimea followed by their escalation in Donbas, and even then we were caught sleepwalking and unprepared for the escalation to the full invasion.

Russia has proven to be a poor partner with little economic upside and an equally poor partner as a defense alliance (see Armenia now). They now have to be considered someone who cannot compete heads up, and will act militarily to get their way.

Does the success of Russia in this war mean the collapse of Europe or Western order? Of course not. But it has now established a pattern and practice of Russian existential threats (Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine) that could raise the risk factor if it does not feel we have the political will collectively even with such a minimal ask to commit to supporting the defense of sovereign nations looking to partner with the West.

There's also the risk of not acting that signals whether that existential threat approach they are taking calculates into areas that could raise the risk factor of direct American military action. This is where that risk matrix comes into play. (Let's all hope nothing happens with Transnistria and the economic squeeze Russia is putting on Moldova)

This is likely a generational outcome for Ukraine, which regardless of how one feels about our level of commitment, you have to feel bad for the Ukrainian people, at least the majority. Maybe our dollars won't save all of Ukraine from Russian victory, but perhaps it will result in a thwarting of a future plan or better terms for Ukraine that could benefit the U.S. and region in the future.