Here we go again, CA doesn't jst get to leave the US because a certain population says it wants to. If they want to go to Mother Russia or in CA go to Mexico. Have at it. Seccession is a no-no...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Why Are We in Ukraine?
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FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
In the modern era, secession is a no-no. Takes two to tango, Ukraine whom Dombas belongs, says no. End of story.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.
But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.
But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.
FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no. Takes two to tango, Ukraine whom Dombas belongs, says no. End of story.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
That's fine. Just don't act like Ukraine has some moral high ground and are the victims in all this. I hope Zelensky meets an untimely dimise before this is all over.
Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
The_barBEARian said:FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no. Takes two to tango, Ukraine whom Dombas belongs, says no. End of story.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
That's fine. Just don't act like Ukraine has some moral high ground and are the victims in all this. I hope Zelensky meets an untimely dimise before this is all over.
You are a pathetic, racist, evil human. I'm sure your meeting with Jesus at the Pearly Gates will be lovely.
I have my share of bad, but I don't wish death on people…but you're beginning to change my attitude on how ignorant some can be.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no..Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
For the record…
We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011
And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002
trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
VICE did some great work on the Donbas separatist movement and the later war
Moscow was of course all over supporting that movement with guns and money.
But it was locally led and had lots of local support among the eastern Ukrainian population.
If it had not it would have failed
trey3216 said:The_barBEARian said:FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no. Takes two to tango, Ukraine whom Dombas belongs, says no. End of story.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
That's fine. Just don't act like Ukraine has some moral high ground and are the victims in all this. I hope Zelensky meets an untimely dimise before this is all over.
You are a pathetic, racist, evil human. I'm sure your meeting with Jesus at the Pearly Gates will be lovely.
I have my share of bad, but I don't wish death on people…but you're beginning to change my attitude on how ignorant some can be.
Oh stop wetting your panties.
If Russia ever crosses the Dnieper, your "hero" Zelensky will be thousands of miles from any danger on his American tax dollar paid yacht in Monaco.
It is his Nation as President, defending the borders that were agreed upon. ******* or not is irrelevant. This is not on Zelensky, this is all on Putin as he invaded. Russia wants to take immigrants that miss Russian life, more power to him. Invade another Nation there is no defending that.The_barBEARian said:FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no. Takes two to tango, Ukraine whom Dombas belongs, says no. End of story.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
That's fine. Just don't act like Ukraine has some moral high ground and are the victims in all this. I hope Zelensky meets an untimely dimise before this is all over.
He's not my hero, by any means. You're a sad person.The_barBEARian said:trey3216 said:The_barBEARian said:FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no. Takes two to tango, Ukraine whom Dombas belongs, says no. End of story.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
That's fine. Just don't act like Ukraine has some moral high ground and are the victims in all this. I hope Zelensky meets an untimely dimise before this is all over.
You are a pathetic, racist, evil human. I'm sure your meeting with Jesus at the Pearly Gates will be lovely.
I have my share of bad, but I don't wish death on people…but you're beginning to change my attitude on how ignorant some can be.
Oh stop wetting your panties.
If Russia ever crosses the Dnieper, your "hero" Zelensky will be thousands of miles from any danger on his American tax dollar paid yacht in Monaco.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Agreed by who?
It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.
It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.
It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.
It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.
They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.The_barBEARian said:
Agreed by who?
It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.
It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.
Whoo! Some of that straight up, unaged, 100 proof propaganda. Can I at least get a splash of water and some ice next time?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
Ukraine Christian leaders have supported freedom. Russian Orthodox supports Putin.
Ukrainian churches work closely together. ROC helps restrict other churches and supports Putin's anti-Christian laws and practices.
Even the one statistic you cite shows Ukrainian Orthodox members attend church weekly at more than double the rate of ROC members. And you conveniently leave out the other stats on Christian commitment in the two countries. Ukrainians are 2 to 4 times more likely to say their faith is important, that they attend church frequently, that they accept all Christian faiths, and that Christians should be in government. And Ukraine has over 500 Evangelical elected officials. All of this data is in the Pew and other studies. They are wildly consistent.
Russia is an ungodly state in all material ways.
For the third time, I acknowledge this is not a religious war per se, so I don't know why you keep beating that drum. But, again, I'm generally going to side with Christians and the Christian cause in most conflicts. And it's hard to evaluate Russia in any sort of conflict without considering its anti-Christian practices, worldview, and allies. And it's impossible not to consider that Putin is intentionally bombing innocent civilian Christians. I'm just as angry about that as I am about what Nigerian Muslims are doing to Christians. Russia and Putin are bad for Christianity, period.
If Trump had succeeded in overthrowing the election on J6, California would have every right to leave. That's essentially what happened in Ukraine.FLBear5630 said:Here we go again, CA doesn't jst get to leave the US because a certain population says it wants to. If they want to go to Mother Russia or in CA go to Mexico. Have at it. Seccession is a no-no...Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
FLBear5630 said:They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.The_barBEARian said:
Agreed by who?
It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.
It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.
Russia did not expect (and says they were promised) that NATO would not expand up to their borders
They also assumed an independent Ukraine (like Belarus & Kazakhstan) would remain in their orbit and that DC would not attempt to tear it away.
True, just not in the way you think.sombear said:
Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.
And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.FLBear5630 said:They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.The_barBEARian said:
Agreed by who?
It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.
It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.
Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Sam Lowry said:Whoo! Some of that straight up, unaged, 100 proof propaganda. Can I at least get a splash of water and some ice next time?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
Ukraine Christian leaders have supported freedom. Russian Orthodox supports Putin.
Ukrainian churches work closely together. ROC helps restrict other churches and supports Putin's anti-Christian laws and practices.
Even the one statistic you cite shows Ukrainian Orthodox members attend church weekly at more than double the rate of ROC members. And you conveniently leave out the other stats on Christian commitment in the two countries. Ukrainians are 2 to 4 times more likely to say their faith is important, that they attend church frequently, that they accept all Christian faiths, and that Christians should be in government. And Ukraine has over 500 Evangelical elected officials. All of this data is in the Pew and other studies. They are wildly consistent.
Russia is an ungodly state in all material ways.
For the third time, I acknowledge this is not a religious war per se, so I don't know why you keep beating that drum. But, again, I'm generally going to side with Christians and the Christian cause in most conflicts. And it's hard to evaluate Russia in any sort of conflict without considering its anti-Christian practices, worldview, and allies. And it's impossible not to consider that Putin is intentionally bombing innocent civilian Christians. I'm just as angry about that as I am about what Nigerian Muslims are doing to Christians. Russia and Putin are bad for Christianity, period.
More irony from the vatnik shill.
Sam Lowry said:Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Speaking of 100 proof propaganda, this is straight up krokodil.
It's actually a direct quote from William J. Burns, the former US ambassador to Russia and current director of the CIA.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Speaking of 100 proof propaganda, this is straight up krokodil.
Thanks for swallowing that bait, hook, line, and sinker. You just proved that so-called "Russian propaganda" simply means whatever Bear8084 doesn't want to hear.
Sam Lowry said:It's actually a direct quote from William J. Burns, the former US ambassador to Russia and current director of the CIA.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Speaking of 100 proof propaganda, this is straight up krokodil.
Thanks for swallowing that bait, hook, line, and sinker. You just proved that so-called "Russian propaganda" simply means whatever Bear8084 doesn't want to hear.
Ah yes, the one who believes Putin is the white knight of Christianity, and spews RU propaganda and is all around anti-American on the daily, got one past and outdated quote and ignores other quotes (from propagandists in that very link) and facts. Yes vatnik, you really got me.
The good news is that Trey3216 owes you a beer. If you were just a little bit less of a spaz he probably would have walked into that one himself.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:It's actually a direct quote from William J. Burns, the former US ambassador to Russia and current director of the CIA.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Speaking of 100 proof propaganda, this is straight up krokodil.
Thanks for swallowing that bait, hook, line, and sinker. You just proved that so-called "Russian propaganda" simply means whatever Bear8084 doesn't want to hear.
Ah yes, the one who believes Putin is the white knight of Christianity, and spews RU propaganda and is all around anti-American on the daily, got one past and outdated quote and ignores other quotes (from propagandists in that very link) and facts. Yes vatnik, you really got me.
Sam Lowry said:The good news is that Trey3216 owes you a beer. If you were just a little bit less of a spaz he probably would have walked into that one himself.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:It's actually a direct quote from William J. Burns, the former US ambassador to Russia and current director of the CIA.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Speaking of 100 proof propaganda, this is straight up krokodil.
Thanks for swallowing that bait, hook, line, and sinker. You just proved that so-called "Russian propaganda" simply means whatever Bear8084 doesn't want to hear.
Ah yes, the one who believes Putin is the white knight of Christianity, and spews RU propaganda and is all around anti-American on the daily, got one past and outdated quote and ignores other quotes (from propagandists in that very link) and facts. Yes vatnik, you really got me.
You continue to prove you're nothing but a POS Russia lover who continues to crap out RU BS.
Or USA BS, as the case may be.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:The good news is that Trey3216 owes you a beer. If you were just a little bit less of a spaz he probably would have walked into that one himself.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:It's actually a direct quote from William J. Burns, the former US ambassador to Russia and current director of the CIA.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touched a raw nerve in Russia, they engendered serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only did Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also feared unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.trey3216 said:Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas & Crimea get the right to choose self-government?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and sent in troops to force them back… sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war 8 years later.
None of this is taking place in a vacuum
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005…probably before that
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between East and West forces inside the county
You mean, when Russia infiltrated all local governments and planted sympathizers in the local eastern governments and the national government of a sovereign nation, then invaded it and claimed a territory, then invaded it again 8 years later to try and claim the rest???
Experts told us that Russia was particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene.
A decision Russia did not want to have to face.
Speaking of 100 proof propaganda, this is straight up krokodil.
Thanks for swallowing that bait, hook, line, and sinker. You just proved that so-called "Russian propaganda" simply means whatever Bear8084 doesn't want to hear.
Ah yes, the one who believes Putin is the white knight of Christianity, and spews RU propaganda and is all around anti-American on the daily, got one past and outdated quote and ignores other quotes (from propagandists in that very link) and facts. Yes vatnik, you really got me.
You continue to prove you're nothing but a POS Russia lover who continues to crap out RU BS.
Sam, you seem to have contempt for self-rule. Once they became a sovereign Nation and stayed neutral for 30 years don't they have the right to determine where there future lies? You seem to be more concerned about keeping Putin and a Russian minority happy at the expense of 90% of Ukraine. How long do they have to follow Putin's whims? Under your "understanding" Ukraine is still a vassal to Russia, Ukraine has tried for Independence all the way back to 1918 when Russia decided which direction they wanted to go. Russia has that right, Ukraine doesn't. So, soverignty really has no meaning. According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...Sam Lowry said:And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.FLBear5630 said:They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.The_barBEARian said:
Agreed by who?
It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.
It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.
sombear said:
Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.
But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.
Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804
Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/
Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.
....LOL.....Mothra said:Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?whiterock said:LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.Mothra said:
Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.
I have posted ad nauseum that supplying Ukraine sufficiently to defeat Russia is the best way to AVOID conflict between Nato and Russia (which would inescapably involve one of my children).
I am favorably disposed to FRENCH deployment to Ukraine. It would be impossible for Russia to counter. The argument in favor of dribbling out the aid to stretch out the war over time would be that it exhausts Russia, forces them to fully mobilize and strain themselves to the edge of their ability. That's sorta where they are = all in. A deployment of substantial numbers of fresh, fully supplied combat troops from third parties would present Russia with a number of dilemmas they cannot counter. I don't think it's likely to happen, but the talk is not occurring in a vacuum. It most definitely is being floated as a warning to Russia.
Deployment of German troops to Baltics is part of this as well. Ostensibly, it is for defense of the Suwalkin Gap. But also is a threat to Belarus. French troops in Ukraine would envelop Belarus. Russia would then have to gamble on Nato intentions, because it would would face sharp limitations on what it could do without robbing the Ukrainian front of men & materiel. And remember FInland and Sweden. Announcing construction in northern Finland of a base for air or armor assets would add to the dilemmas. Russia has an indefensible supply chain to Murmansk and could not sustain deployments there in substantial numbers without impacting Ukraine. Note the Russian troop withdrawals from Caucasus region....
The chess game is on. Russia cannot win unless we throw in the towel.
Love the way CIA is granted independent status as a player, as if it never acted on orders from policymakers....sombear said:USA and freedom do, and the former Soviet nations likely would still be under communist rule without us. That is why most of Eastern Europe is so appreciative of the U.S. But, yes, the CIA played a significant role.Sam Lowry said:"CIA" and "freedom" don't even belong in the same thread.sombear said:Church leaders supporting freedom and liberty and fighting tyranny. . . I'm shocked and appalled!Sam Lowry said:CIA...that sounds familiar. Is this the one you mean?Redbrickbear said:Sam Lowry said:They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.sombear said:Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.Sam Lowry said:Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."Mothra said:
"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."
LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.
Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."
13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.
Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.
Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA
https://orthochristian.com/117882.html
Thank God that's never happened before [camera slowly pans to clergy in every freedom and liberty movement, including our own revolution].
The bar has to be pretty high, or the world is aflame in secessionist struggles. Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability. And that is one of the strongest arguments for opposing the Russian invasion in Ukraine. If it is allowed to stand, then Moldova is next. Then Pakistan and India are back at it over Kashmir. China and India are at it over anerobic mountain passes to nowhere. And Yemen festers some more on steroids. Quebec would be pretty civil, but Kurdistan would be a 7-digit genocide.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
If you take a "well, lets think about this" stand rather than "nope, not gonna happen"..... wars start popping up all over the globe, and everybody who can play in them, will.
Portraying Ukraine as anti-Christian is not just propaganda, it is exceedingly bad propagandasombear said:
Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.
But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.
So, is that now a "no," you don't want American boots on the ground - just French and German?whiterock said:....LOL.....Mothra said:Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?whiterock said:LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.Mothra said:
Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.
I have posted ad nauseum that supplying Ukraine sufficiently to defeat Russia is the best way to AVOID conflict between Nato and Russia (which would inescapably involve one of my children).
I am favorably disposed to FRENCH deployment to Ukraine. It would be impossible for Russia to counter. The argument in favor of dribbling out the aid to stretch out the war over time would be that it exhausts Russia, forces them to fully mobilize and strain themselves to the edge of their ability. That's sorta where they are = all in. A deployment of substantial numbers of fresh, fully supplied combat troops from third parties would present Russia with a number of dilemmas they cannot counter. I don't think it's likely to happen, but the talk is not occurring in a vacuum. It most definitely is being floated as a warning to Russia.
Deployment of German troops to Baltics is part of this as well. Ostensibly, it is for defense of the Suwalkin Gap. But also is a threat to Belarus. French troops in Ukraine would envelop Belarus. Russia would then have to gamble on Nato intentions, because it would would face sharp limitations on what it could do without robbing the Ukrainian front of men & materiel. And remember FInland and Sweden. Announcing construction in northern Finland of a base for air or armor assets would add to the dilemmas. Russia has an indefensible supply chain to Murmansk and could not sustain deployments there in substantial numbers without impacting Ukraine. Note the Russian troop withdrawals from Caucasus region....
The chess game is on. Russia cannot win unless we throw in the towel.
after how many years of ceaseless conflict? doesn't that prove the point I made about how hard it should be to get it done?.....So hard it almost never happens.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:In the modern era, secession is a no-no..Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Here we go again…Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:
Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.
.
Its such a myopic argument
It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.
The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion
(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries
"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"
"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/
https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf
You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.
And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation
It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.
[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]
[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),
Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]
[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]
Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?
They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war
Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war
You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"
This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005
Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county
Seccession is a no-no...
Secession is literally how Texas became a country
Secession is literally how the USA became independent
For the record…
We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011
And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002
I was in Sudan from 1992-1994. Sudanese soldiers would enter a village and round up all the young women & take them back to base. Rape them. Keep them in confinement and force them to raise the children as muslims. Ethnic cleansing stuff. Decades of it. And thru it all, no matter how obvious it might have seemed that the only end to it would be a division of Sudan into a muslim north and a non-muslim south, the position of every interested party was NOPE. Not gonna happen. Until, one day. Boom, it happens. (when it becomes obvious that the costs of allowing it to happen are less than not allowing it to happen).
And none of that applies to Ukraine. Russia just invaded to take what it wanted. There was no serious secessionist effort there. Without Russian sponsorship, there was no conflict at all. The Russian meddling that happened there is the kind of stuff you have to resist most firmly.