Bear8084 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

Ukraine Christian leaders have supported freedom. Russian Orthodox supports Putin.

Ukrainian churches work closely together. ROC helps restrict other churches and supports Putin's anti-Christian laws and practices.

Even the one statistic you cite shows Ukrainian Orthodox members attend church weekly at more than double the rate of ROC members. And you conveniently leave out the other stats on Christian commitment in the two countries. Ukrainians are 2 to 4 times more likely to say their faith is important, that they attend church frequently, that they accept all Christian faiths, and that Christians should be in government. And Ukraine has over 500 Evangelical elected officials. All of this data is in the Pew and other studies. They are wildly consistent.

Russia is an ungodly state in all material ways.

For the third time, I acknowledge this is not a religious war per se, so I don't know why you keep beating that drum. But, again, I'm generally going to side with Christians and the Christian cause in most conflicts. And it's hard to evaluate Russia in any sort of conflict without considering its anti-Christian practices, worldview, and allies. And it's impossible not to consider that Putin is intentionally bombing innocent civilian Christians. I'm just as angry about that as I am about what Nigerian Muslims are doing to Christians. Russia and Putin are bad for Christianity, period.

---

Whoo! Some of that straight up, unaged, 100 proof propaganda. Can I at least get a splash of water and some ice next time?

---

More irony from the vatnik shill.

---

after he supercopied a Pravada post on why the Russian invasion of Ukraine was necessary to avoid destabilizing the entire region.

FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

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I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

In the modern era, secession is a no-no..

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For the record…

We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011

And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002

---

after how many years of ceaseless conflict? doesn't that prove the point I made about how hard it should be to get it done?.....So hard it almost never happens.
.

---

I forgot how we also helped Kosovo (full of Muslims) break off from Serbia in 2008

So 3 times in the last 20 years the USA has helped secessionist movements

Redbrickbear said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

That is not there call. If they want to move to Russia, go for it. You can't take Ukraine ports and bread basket, fill it with Russian immigrants and say now they want to be Russia. This isn't the 1800's. Putin has flooded those areas with Russians.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

Naturally

The Ukrainians have suffered at the hands of the Russians for centuries.

Would like to see a fully independent Ukraine. But life is not fair as there are similar territorial injustices throughout the world and none are worth hundreds of billions of dollars to me.

Focus on the needs of our people .

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

Is it that they don't want to be part of Ukraine or do they say that because they're afraid of the Russian strong arm if they don't say that. Afraid that they may lose their property and rights if they don't say that? Afraid that their children will be taken away to Russia if they don't say that?

Same playbook....

🇬🇪A multidimensional campaign by the pro-Russian party Georgian Dream is currently underway. Let's take a closer look at GD and oligarch Bidzina Ivanishvili's use of personal threats, violence, disinformation, and double communication.
🧵Here is a thread about the alarming… pic.twitter.com/qihDiEtnAA

— Terje Helland (@terjehelland) May 9, 2024

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

That has never been established, not even close. Votes and polls are all over the place. One of the issues you and I agree on, is that particularly in a case like the Soviet breakup, if there is a region that clearly wants to become part of Russia, then that should happen - but, even then, it should happen politically and diplomatically, and certainly not executed by force by the other country.

---

Well I certainly agree with that but its not what has happened historically.

Lincoln used force on the issue of secession in our own country. So did King George and the Parliament

The USA used force (or the treat of force) to get Serbia to let Kosovo go.

Mexico City used force against the native Texans to keep them under their control.

On and on we find that most central governments (Kyiv in Donbas, Beijing in Tibet, Moscow in Chechnya) will not let regions break off in peace.

But I would love it if all issues like this were simply settled by votes of the residents/citizens of the area concerned.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

That has never been established, not even close. Votes and polls are all over the place. One of the issues you and I agree on, is that particularly in a case like the Soviet breakup, if there is a region that clearly wants to become part of Russia, then that should happen - but, even then, it should happen politically and diplomatically, and certainly not executed by force by the other country.

---

Well I certainly agree with that but its not what has happened historically.

Lincoln used force on the issue of secession in our own country. So did King George and the Parliament

The USA used force (or the treat of force) to get Serbia to let Kosovo go.

Mexico City used force against the native Texans to keep them under their control.

On and on we find that most central governments (Kyiv in Donbas, Beijing in Tibet, Moscow in Chechnya) will not let regions break off in peace.

But I would love it if all issues like this were simply settled by votes of the residents/citizens of the area concerned.

---

Which you believe was wrong, no?

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

As importantly, Putin invaded and intended to conquer all of Ukraine, and every proposal he has made, from the very beginning, has required full Ukraine subjugation. It is pure fiction that Ukraine could have avoided all of this - or could get out of this now - simply by giving up part of the East. That has never been on the table.

---

That is just wildly, ridiculously untrue. I don't know how you come up with stuff like this.

Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

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Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

You serious, Clark? Multiple posters on multiple threads have argued that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine and attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian govt. And the proffered reasons have generally been because Ukraine has looked to Europe instead of Russia for engagement. See Sam, BarBearian. Others have been more subtle but have essentially defended Russia's attack as justified.

---

You won't find that reasoning in my posts, or anyone else's that I'm aware of. Russia didn't invade because they objected to Ukraine's independence. They invaded because of the overthrow of Ukraine's government and its alliance with the West.

FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

Sam, you seem to have contempt for self-rule. Once they became a sovereign Nation and stayed neutral for 30 years don't they have the right to determine where their future lies? You seem to be more concerned about keeping Putin and a Russian minority happy at the expense of 90% of Ukraine. How long do they have to follow Putin's whims? Under your "understanding" Ukraine is still a vassal to Russia, Ukraine has tried for Independence all the way back to 1918 when Russia decided which direction they wanted to go. Russia has that right, Ukraine doesn't. So, soverignty really has no meaning. According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

Sovereignty isn't the issue. Ukraine was already independent from Russia.

whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

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LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.

---

Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?

---

....LOL.....

I have posted ad nauseum that supplying Ukraine sufficiently to defeat Russia is the best way to AVOID conflict between Nato and Russia (which would inescapably involve one of my children).

---

Yes. And since you were conspicuously wrong about that, the question is what are you advocating now.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability.

---

Was one of the pillars. We abandoned that principle decades ago, and you're seeing the results.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

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Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

As importantly, Putin invaded and intended to conquer all of Ukraine, and every proposal he has made, from the very beginning, has required full Ukraine subjugation. It is pure fiction that Ukraine could have avoided all of this - or could get out of this now - simply by giving up part of the East. That has never been on the table.

---

That is just wildly, ridiculously untrue. I don't know how you come up with stuff like this.

---

LOL it's not. And you should read your own RU crap.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

In the modern era, secession is a no-no..

---

For the record…

We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011

And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002

---

And none of that applies to Ukraine. Russia just invaded to take what it wanted. There was no serious secessionist effort there. Without Russian sponsorship, there was no conflict at all. The Russian meddling that happened there is the kind of stuff you have to resist most firmly.

---

"Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

That's not Pravda; it's what our own people said behind closed doors. It was true then and remained true when events played out as predicted. Your denials only prove that you have no real concern for Ukraine.

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

As importantly, Putin invaded and intended to conquer all of Ukraine, and every proposal he has made, from the very beginning, has required full Ukraine subjugation. It is pure fiction that Ukraine could have avoided all of this - or could get out of this now - simply by giving up part of the East. That has never been on the table.

---

That is just wildly, ridiculously untrue. I don't know how you come up with stuff like this.

---

There has been excellent reporting from several different perspectives on settlement discussions dating back even before the war. There is exactly zero reporting that Putin ever proposed only that Ukraine simply give up part of the East. EVERY SINGLE PROPOSAL has required, among other things, that Ukraine (1) forever reduce its military, (2) forever give up weapons from the west, (3) forever agree not to join NATO or otherwise formally align with free Europe, and (4) teach public school children a pro-Russia version of history.

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

And last I checked he hasn't outlawed divorce, greed, or gluttony . . . .

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

In the modern era, secession is a no-no..

---

For the record…

We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011

And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002

---

And none of that applies to Ukraine. Russia just invaded to take what it wanted. There was no serious secessionist effort there. Without Russian sponsorship, there was no conflict at all. The Russian meddling that happened there is the kind of stuff you have to resist most firmly.

---

"Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

That's not Pravda; it's what our own people said behind closed doors. It was true then and remained true when events played out as predicted. Your denials only prove that you have no real concern for Ukraine.

---

so instead, Russia provoked a possible civil war in 2014 by illegally invading Ukraine and claiming Crimea as its own, then they installed puppet local governments in the entire eastern part of Ukraine to encourage them to split off. Then they funneled weapons, sent troops to pose as Russian sympathetic Ukrainians, and actually did start a civil war. Then they invaded the country full scale 8 years later with aims to take over the entire country.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

You serious, Clark? Multiple posters on multiple threads have argued that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine and attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian govt. And the proffered reasons have generally been because Ukraine has looked to Europe instead of Russia for engagement. See Sam, BarBearian. Others have been more subtle but have essentially defended Russia's attack as justified.

---

You won't find that reasoning in my posts, or anyone else's that I'm aware of. Russia didn't invade because they objected to Ukraine's independence. They invaded because of the overthrow of Ukraine's government and its alliance with the West.

---

You've proffered a lot of reasons, one of which was them seeking closer ties with Europe and membership in NATO.

BTW, you forgot about the Nazis.

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

In the modern era, secession is a no-no..

---

For the record…

We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011

And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002

---

And none of that applies to Ukraine. Russia just invaded to take what it wanted. There was no serious secessionist effort there. Without Russian sponsorship, there was no conflict at all. The Russian meddling that happened there is the kind of stuff you have to resist most firmly.

---

"Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

That's not Pravda; it's what our own people said behind closed doors. It was true then and remained true when events played out as predicted. Your denials only prove that you have no real concern for Ukraine.

---

so instead, Russia provoked a possible civil war in 2014 by illegally invading Ukraine and claiming Crimea as its own, then they installed puppet local governments in the entire eastern part of Ukraine to encourage them to split off. Then they funneled weapons, sent troops to pose as Russian sympathetic Ukrainians, and actually did start a civil war.

---

Nice summation...sounds like it came right off the CIA website.

One could also easily come up with another:

[The Soviet (communist) leadership -a criminal regime holding the Russian nation hostage since 1917- in 1954 illegally transferred Crimea from Russian control to an entity called the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (another communist illegitimate entity).

Artificially severing a majority Russian geographic area from the Russian nation...one that had been Russian since Catherine the Great in the 1700s. Longer a part of Russia than Ohio has been apart of the USA

And of course a majority geo-strategic and vital Russian naval base

(How would DC react to Hawaii being transferred to another country?)

After an initial coup against the more pro-Russian party in 2005 elections...known as the Orange revolution. The USA government help launch a even bigger coup in 2014 that threw out the legitimate elected leaders of Ukraine using street violence and in some cases out right murder.

This "Jan. 6th style insurrection" and "threat to electoral norms" was successful and in response the ethnic Russian areas of the east in Donbas and Crimea decided to leave and assert their independence and later join with the Russian Federation.

Moscow sent "humanitarian aid" and "low interest loans to secure democracy" to these "freedom fighters & human rights activists" on the ground and even sent in "peace keepers" to secure democratic gains on the ground and the right to self determination by the local populace.

The regime in Kyiv (in bed with fascist rightwing militias) then responded with military mobilization and violence against the local population of eastern Ukraine. Thousands of people many civilians were killed in the fighting.

After 8 years of warfare and violence the government of the Russian Federation decided to engaged in a "peace keeping operation" to make sur that the will of the people of eastern Ukraine was respected and bring an end to the cycle of violence]

See....anyone can do this stuff

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

You could expand that to include when you have been captured by whatever regime is in power you are no longer doing Christ's work.

You have to be be willing to speak out against those in power and what they are doing.

Of course that would force us to ask some deep questions about our own State captured Churches in the West.

Like the Church of England, the Lutheran Church of Sweden, and our own progressive Christian churches in America.

All of who have the exact same regime approved views on race, gender, and sexuality that the DC ruling class wants them to have.

Moscow and DC fundamentally both want loyal Christian Churches that they indirectly control and dislike non-loyal ones.

Catholics are not welcome in Moscow....traditional Southern Baptists are not welcome in DC

trey3216 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

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Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

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Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

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In the modern era, secession is a no-no..

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For the record…

We just helped South Sudan break off from Sudan in 2011

And helped East Timor break off from Indonesia in 2002

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And none of that applies to Ukraine. Russia just invaded to take what it wanted. There was no serious secessionist effort there. Without Russian sponsorship, there was no conflict at all. The Russian meddling that happened there is the kind of stuff you have to resist most firmly.

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"Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

That's not Pravda; it's what our own people said behind closed doors. It was true then and remained true when events played out as predicted. Your denials only prove that you have no real concern for Ukraine.

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so instead, Russia provoked a possible civil war in 2014 by illegally invading Ukraine and claiming Crimea as its own, then they installed puppet local governments in the entire eastern part of Ukraine to encourage them to split off. Then they funneled weapons, sent troops to pose as Russian sympathetic Ukrainians, and actually did start a civil war. Then they invaded the country full scale 8 years later with aims to take over the entire country.

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Yuuuuuup.

sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

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Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

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At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

And last I checked he hasn't outlawed divorce, greed, or gluttony . . . .

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lol of course you would.


Just to be clear in Russia prostitution is against the law (even if its rampant on the streets).

[Prostitution is illegal in Russia. The punishment for engagement in prostitution is a fine from 1500 up to 2000 rubles. Moreover, organizing prostitution is punishable by long prison terms.]

Russia also has recently passed laws to more heavily restrict abortion.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes

Russia has also pass anti-corruption laws....even if these are absolutely ignored.

None of this of course means on the ground anything has really changed but its important to be accurate.

Redbrickbear said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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sombear said:

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Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

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Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

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There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

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Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

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You could expand that to include when you have been captured by whatever regime is in power you are no longer doing Christ's work.

You have to be be willing to speak out against those in power and what they are doing.

Of course that would force us to ask some deep questions about our own State captured Churches in the West.

Like the Church of England, the Lutheran Church of Sweden, and our own progressive Christian churches in America.

All of who have the exact same regime approved views on race, gender, and sexuality that the DC ruling class wants them to have.

Moscow and DC fundamentally both want loyal Christian Churches that they indirectly control and dislike non-loyal ones.

Catholics are not welcome in Moscow....traditional Southern Baptists are not welcome in DC

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There are a lot of so-called Christian churches around the world that no longer adhere to the central tenets of the faith, for sure.

Being a mouthpiece of the govt is certainly one particular subset.

Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

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They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

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And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

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According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

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This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

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I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

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You serious, Clark? Multiple posters on multiple threads have argued that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine and attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian govt. And the proffered reasons have generally been because Ukraine has looked to Europe instead of Russia for engagement. See Sam, BarBearian. Others have been more subtle but have essentially defended Russia's attack as justified.

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You won't find that reasoning in my posts, or anyone else's that I'm aware of. Russia didn't invade because they objected to Ukraine's independence. They invaded because of the overthrow of Ukraine's government and its alliance with the West.

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You've proffered a lot of reasons, one of which was them seeking closer ties with Europe and membership in NATO.

BTW, you forgot about the Nazis.

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The people of Eastern Ukraine did not forget.

They did not want to be part of the EU-NATO or deal with neo-Nazi idiots from Lviv

(But I certainly agree that central and western Ukraine want to be in the EU-NATO...and that the neo-Nazi militias are overblown in terms of membership)

Mothra said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

You could expand that to include when you have been captured by whatever regime is in power you are no longer doing Christ's work.

You have to be be willing to speak out against those in power and what they are doing.

Of course that would force us to ask some deep questions about our own State captured Churches in the West.

Like the Church of England, the Lutheran Church of Sweden, and our own progressive Christian churches in America.

All of who have the exact same regime approved views on race, gender, and sexuality that the DC ruling class wants them to have.

Moscow and DC fundamentally both want loyal Christian Churches that they indirectly control and dislike non-loyal ones.

Catholics are not welcome in Moscow....traditional Southern Baptists are not welcome in DC

---

There are a lot of so-called Christian churches around the world that no longer adhere to the central tenets of the faith, for sure.

Being a mouthpiece of the govt is certainly one particular subset.

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Just interesting that all great powers try to co-op religions to serve them.

In this case specifically the CIA is working with the Orthodox Church in Constantinople while the FSB is working with Orthodox Church in Russia.

You can't make this stuff up!

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-cias-man-in-constantinople/

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government.

This ignorance is surprising, given that many Greek Orthodox leaders are quite proud of the fact. In 1942, Athenagoras Spyrouthe Archbishop of America for the Greek Orthodox Churchwrote to an agent of the Office of Strategic Services. "I have three Bishops, three hundred priests, and a large and far-flung organization," Athenagoras wrote. "Every one under my order is under yours. You may command them for any service you require. There will be no questions asked and your directions will be executed faithfully."

The current Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew, is cut from the same cloth as Athenagoras. He is very close to Pope Francis; the two share a passion for mass immigration and environmental activism. Also like Athenagoras, Bartholomew shares a close relationship with the U.S. governmenta partnership that has proven mutually beneficial...

Nevertheless, the United States government officially supports the doctrine of Greek papism, as will be shown. Strengthening the Ecumenical Patriarchate's position within global Orthodoxy serves two purposes. First, it necessarily subtracts from the influence of Constantinople's rival, the Moscow Patriarchate. Washington regards Russian Orthodoxy as a tool for Kremlin propaganda and, therefore, a legitimate target for counterintelligence operations. Secondly, the renovationist Ecumenical Patriarchs are willing partners in Washington's campaign to spread liberal, democratic values across the globe.]