sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

As importantly, Putin invaded and intended to conquer all of Ukraine, and every proposal he has made, from the very beginning, has required full Ukraine subjugation. It is pure fiction that Ukraine could have avoided all of this - or could get out of this now - simply by giving up part of the East. That has never been on the table.

---

That is just wildly, ridiculously untrue. I don't know how you come up with stuff like this.

---

There has been excellent reporting from several different perspectives on settlement discussions dating back even before the war. There is exactly zero reporting that Putin ever proposed only that Ukraine simply give up part of the East. EVERY SINGLE PROPOSAL has required, among other things, that Ukraine (1) forever reduce its military, (2) forever give up weapons from the west, (3) forever agree not to join NATO or otherwise formally align with free Europe, and (4) teach public school children a pro-Russia version of history.

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf

---

You're working very hard to lump together Ukraine and Russian Christianity, but there is zero comparison.

---

And you are working hard to pretend Ukraine is some kind of highly religious Christian nation

It's got all the problems of drugs, abortion, prostitution, and corruption that Russia has…and the ultra low rates of weekly church attendance as other Eastern European orthodox majority countries in its area.

[People born in Ukraine accounted for 10.2% (n = 2,338) of all HIV diagnoses reported in EU/EEA countries in 2022]

[Ukraine that was one of the most popular European destinations for sex tourism before the Russian invasion in 2022. According to the Public Health Center run by the Ukrainian government, prostitution was widespread in the country with about 63,000 sex workers before the invasion. According to the Ukrainian Institute for Social Studies, before the outbreak of the Ukrainian crisis in 2014, the largest number of sex workers were in the Kyiv Oblast (about 10 thousand),

Often, underage girls are forced into the world of prostitution. Most often, such girls come from the poorest strata of society. Many of them do not have their own families or their families are socially problematic their parents are addicted to alcohol or drugs. In 2016, about 10% of victims of human trafficking in Ukraine were of adolescent age. About 10% of the teenage population who lived on the streets without their families provided sexual services to other men in exchange for money or food.]

[First, it's necessary to be precise about the scale of the problem. Because corruption is hidden, estimating its scale is always problematic. According to the most widely cited source-the annual ranking of corruption by Transparency International (TI)-Ukraine has scored poorly for decades. As late as 2016, amid major anti-corruption reforms, TI's survey still judged Ukraine to be as corrupt as Russia.]

---

I fail to see how whether they are religious or not plays into their right to self-govern…

---

Don't the people in Donbas and Crimea get to self-govern?

They don't want to be part of Ukraine…Kyiv disagreed and send into troops sparking off the Donbas war

Leading to this greater Russo-Ukraine war

You again act like Moscow woke up one day and said "wez gonna take all Ukraine"

This conflict has been in the making since the Orange revolution in 2005

Religion has nothing to do with it..its the geo-political struggle between east and west forces inside the county

---

Here we go again…

Seccession is a no-no...

---

Secession is literally how Texas became a country

Secession is literally how the USA became independent

---

The bar has to be pretty high, or the world is aflame in secessionist struggles. Literally, one of the pillars of the post-WWII order is territorial inviolability. And that is one of the strongest arguments for opposing the Russian invasion in Ukraine. If it is allowed to stand, then Moldova is next. Then Pakistan and India are back at it over Kashmir. China and India are at it over anerobic mountain passes to nowhere. And Yemen festers some more on steroids. Quebec would be pretty civil, but Kurdistan would be a 7-digit genocide.

If you take a "well, lets think about this" stand rather than "nope, not gonna happen"..... wars start popping up all over the globe, and everybody who can play in them, will.

---

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

You serious, Clark? Multiple posters on multiple threads have argued that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine and attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian govt. And the proffered reasons have generally been because Ukraine has looked to Europe instead of Russia for engagement. See Sam, BarBearian. Others have been more subtle but have essentially defended Russia's attack as justified.

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

You serious, Clark? Multiple posters on multiple threads have argued that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine and attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian govt. And the proffered reasons have generally been because Ukraine has looked to Europe instead of Russia for engagement. See Sam, BarBearian. Others have been more subtle but have essentially defended Russia's attack as justified.

---

Why is Ukraine getting so much support from the US and Europe while Armenia is being invaded and its people are being slaughtered and they receive nothing? Well Azerbaijan is using Israeli weapons to kill Christians. In return Israel recieves most of it's oil from Azerbaijan. Wouldn't want to fumble the bag for our "greatest ally"

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

And last I checked he hasn't outlawed divorce, greed, or gluttony . . . .

---

lol of course you would.


Just to be clear in Russia prostitution is against the law (even if its rampant on the streets).

[Prostitution is illegal in Russia. The punishment for engagement in prostitution is a fine from 1500 up to 2000 rubles. Moreover, organizing prostitution is punishable by long prison terms.]

Russia also has recently passed laws to more heavily restrict abortion.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes

Russia has also pass anti-corruption laws....even if these are absolutely ignored.

None of this of course means on the ground anything has really changed but its important to be accurate.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

This is more than a tad ironic. To see some posters arguing for secession even today, while simultaneously arguing that Russia was morally-justified in invading Ukraine because it wanted to be independent of Russian rule.

---

I don't know a single poster who has argued against Ukriane's rights to be independent of Moscow

People have simply pointed out that Donbas and Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine

---

As importantly, Putin invaded and intended to conquer all of Ukraine, and every proposal he has made, from the very beginning, has required full Ukraine subjugation. It is pure fiction that Ukraine could have avoided all of this - or could get out of this now - simply by giving up part of the East. That has never been on the table.

---

That is just wildly, ridiculously untrue. I don't know how you come up with stuff like this.

---

There has been excellent reporting from several different perspectives on settlement discussions dating back even before the war. There is exactly zero reporting that Putin ever proposed only that Ukraine simply give up part of the East. EVERY SINGLE PROPOSAL has required, among other things, that Ukraine (1) forever reduce its military, (2) forever give up weapons from the west, (3) forever agree not to join NATO or otherwise formally align with free Europe, and (4) teach public school children a pro-Russia version of history.

---

Sorry, I thought you were speaking in terms of territory. There was discussion of limiting Ukraine's military and weapons at the Istanbul talks after the war started. I haven't seen reporting on any such demands in the context of Minsk. I don't know what you mean by pro-Russian education unless it has to do with linguistic self-determination.

It's very true that Russia has always insisted on neutrality, and with good reason. Ukraine already agreed to it as a condition of its departure from the Soviet Union. If that's what you consider full subjugation then Ukraine was already subjugated back in 1991, and no one had a problem with it until now.

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

Russian forces have begun the first stage of an operation in Kharkiv Oblast that advances multiple Russian objectives. Russian forces likely will not seize Kharkiv City. 🧵(1/3)

Available evidence indicates that the initial Russian attacks are reconnaissance in force and not yet… https://t.co/4wY6vXr10Z pic.twitter.com/HhA9qxNqnw

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) May 10, 2024

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

Sam, you seem to have contempt for self-rule. Once they became a sovereign Nation and stayed neutral for 30 years don't they have the right to determine where their future lies? You seem to be more concerned about keeping Putin and a Russian minority happy at the expense of 90% of Ukraine. How long do they have to follow Putin's whims? Under your "understanding" Ukraine is still a vassal to Russia, Ukraine has tried for Independence all the way back to 1918 when Russia decided which direction they wanted to go. Russia has that right, Ukraine doesn't. So, soverignty really has no meaning. According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

Sovereignty isn't the issue. Ukraine was already independent from Russia.

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

And last I checked he hasn't outlawed divorce, greed, or gluttony . . . .

---

lol of course you would.


Just to be clear in Russia prostitution is against the law (even if its rampant on the streets).

[Prostitution is illegal in Russia. The punishment for engagement in prostitution is a fine from 1500 up to 2000 rubles. Moreover, organizing prostitution is punishable by long prison terms.]

Russia also has recently passed laws to more heavily restrict abortion.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/28/russia-limits-womens-access-to-abortion-citing-demographic-changes

Russia has also pass anti-corruption laws....even if these are absolutely ignored.

None of this of course means on the ground anything has really changed but its important to be accurate.

---

I know these things. Unlike most on here, I know Russia well.

Those laws are enforced against everyone except those that really matter. Putin and his local cronies do exactly nothing about it.

Worse yet, they look the other way on trafficked child prostitutes. It's truly abhorrent.

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

Sam, you seem to have contempt for self-rule. Once they became a sovereign Nation and stayed neutral for 30 years don't they have the right to determine where their future lies? You seem to be more concerned about keeping Putin and a Russian minority happy at the expense of 90% of Ukraine. How long do they have to follow Putin's whims? Under your "understanding" Ukraine is still a vassal to Russia, Ukraine has tried for Independence all the way back to 1918 when Russia decided which direction they wanted to go. Russia has that right, Ukraine doesn't. So, soverignty really has no meaning. According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

Sovereignty isn't the issue. Ukraine was already independent from Russia.

---

No, they weren't.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Early reports are that Russia has begun the Kharkiv offensive. Whether it's a feint or the real deal remains to be seen, but there's definitely something going on in the last 24 hours.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

Sam, you seem to have contempt for self-rule. Once they became a sovereign Nation and stayed neutral for 30 years don't they have the right to determine where their future lies? You seem to be more concerned about keeping Putin and a Russian minority happy at the expense of 90% of Ukraine. How long do they have to follow Putin's whims? Under your "understanding" Ukraine is still a vassal to Russia, Ukraine has tried for Independence all the way back to 1918 when Russia decided which direction they wanted to go. Russia has that right, Ukraine doesn't. So, soverignty really has no meaning. According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

Sovereignty isn't the issue. Ukraine was already independent from Russia.

---

No, they weren't.

---

Ukrainian independence

Nationalism spread following Mikhail Gorbachev's political liberalisation of the Soviet Union in the 1980's. The pro-independence People's Movement of Ukraine was founded in 1989. After the Congress of People's Deputies of Russia made the Declaration of State Sovereignty of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic made a similar declaration on 16 July 1991. Following the 1991 Soviet coup d'etat attempt, the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine was passed on 24 August 1991 with one vote against. The subsequent 1991 Ukrainian Independence Referendum approved this by a nationwide majority of 92.3% and majorities in every region of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations#Ukrainian_independence

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

Agreed by who?

It doesn't seem very democratic or liberty oriented to force a overwhelming plurality of people living in the Dombas to stay a part of Ukraine at gunpoint.

It should have been put to a vote, like Brexit or Scottish Independence referendums... oh wait, that already happened in 2014 and it was a landslide victory for those who wished to annex themselves.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the most fervent uniparty supporters here in America are the only ones still supporting Ukraine. Even the far left has moved on to Palestine as the new sacred cow.

---

They were set when Ukraine and the other former Soviet nations declared independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They have been recognized by the UN and Internationally for 30 plus years. This is not a new border, Russia was part of those agreements.

---

And part of those agreements was that Ukraine would remain neutral, i.e. not a member of NATO.

---

Sam, you seem to have contempt for self-rule. Once they became a sovereign Nation and stayed neutral for 30 years don't they have the right to determine where their future lies? You seem to be more concerned about keeping Putin and a Russian minority happy at the expense of 90% of Ukraine. How long do they have to follow Putin's whims? Under your "understanding" Ukraine is still a vassal to Russia, Ukraine has tried for Independence all the way back to 1918 when Russia decided which direction they wanted to go. Russia has that right, Ukraine doesn't. So, soverignty really has no meaning. According to some on here, Texas is soverign and should have the right to break away, but Ukraine. Not so much...

---

Sovereignty isn't the issue. Ukraine was already independent from Russia.

---

No, they weren't.

---

Ukrainian independence

Nationalism spread following Mikhail Gorbachev's political liberalisation of the Soviet Union in the 1980's. The pro-independence People's Movement of Ukraine was founded in 1989. After the Congress of People's Deputies of Russia made the Declaration of State Sovereignty of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic made a similar declaration on 16 July 1991. Following the 1991 Soviet coup d'etat attempt, the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine was passed on 24 August 1991 with one vote against. The subsequent 1991 Ukrainian Independence Referendum approved this by a nationwide majority of 92.3% and majorities in every region of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations#Ukrainian_independence

---

I know, right? You would have thought Russia would have let them be independent and sovereign.

---

Realitybites said:

---

"It is often said here that the head of state in Russia answers and will always answer for everything. This is still the case. But today, although I have a deep awareness of my own personal responsibility, I nevertheless want to emphasize that Russia's success and prosperity cannot and should not depend on one single person or one political party, or political force alone. We need a broad base for developing democracy in our country and for continuing the transformations we have begun. It is my conviction, that a mature civil society is the best guarantee that this development will continue. Only free people in a free country can be genuinely successful."

- Vladimir Putin, Inaugural Address, May 7, 2024

Can you even begin to image Brandon saying anything like this in January 2025 after he harvests 91 million votes in November?

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

"It is often said here that the head of state in Russia answers and will always answer for everything. This is still the case. But today, although I have a deep awareness of my own personal responsibility, I nevertheless want to emphasize that Russia's success and prosperity cannot and should not depend on one single person or one political party, or political force alone. We need a broad base for developing democracy in our country and for continuing the transformations we have begun. It is my conviction, that a mature civil society is the best guarantee that this development will continue. Only free people in a free country can be genuinely successful."

- Vladimir Putin, Inaugural Address, May 7, 2024

Can you even begin to image Brandon saying anything like this in January 2025 after he harvests 91 million votes in November?

---

You must be a words over actions guy, huh?

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

"It is often said here that the head of state in Russia answers and will always answer for everything. This is still the case. But today, although I have a deep awareness of my own personal responsibility, I nevertheless want to emphasize that Russia's success and prosperity cannot and should not depend on one single person or one political party, or political force alone. We need a broad base for developing democracy in our country and for continuing the transformations we have begun. It is my conviction, that a mature civil society is the best guarantee that this development will continue. Only free people in a free country can be genuinely successful."

- Vladimir Putin, Inaugural Address, May 7, 2024

Can you even begin to image Brandon saying anything like this in January 2025 after he harvests 91 million votes in November?

---

You must be a words over actions guy, huh?

---

His point still stands…Biden would never say something like that…at the same time as DC tries to imprison the largest opposition political leader

---

I can't stand Biden. But, he's talked about the importance of democracy probably more than any other issue..

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Early reports are that Russia has begun the Kharkiv offensive. Whether it's a feint or the real deal remains to be seen, but there's definitely something going on in the last 24 hours.

---

Realitybites said:

---

"It is often said here that the head of state in Russia answers and will always answer for everything. This is still the case. But today, although I have a deep awareness of my own personal responsibility, I nevertheless want to emphasize that Russia's success and prosperity cannot and should not depend on one single person or one political party, or political force alone. We need a broad base for developing democracy in our country and for continuing the transformations we have begun. It is my conviction, that a mature civil society is the best guarantee that this development will continue. Only free people in a free country can be genuinely successful."

- Vladimir Putin, Inaugural Address, May 7, 2024

Can you even begin to image Brandon saying anything like this in January 2025 after he harvests 91 million votes in November?

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

---

Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

---

Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

---

Russian Orthodox churches may be Christian, but they're opposed to Christ's teachings? How does that work?

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

---

Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

---

Russian Orthodox churches may be Christian, but they're opposed to Christ's teachings? How does that work?

---

See post above. When you're merely the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may not be doing Christ work.

I realize you're Catholic, but you do realize Christians encompass more than a single sect or denomination, correct?

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

---

Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

---

Russian Orthodox churches may be Christian, but they're opposed to Christ's teachings? How does that work?

---

See post above. When you're merely the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may not be doing Christ work.

I realize you're Catholic, but you do realize Christians encompass more than a single sect or denomination, correct?

---

Of course. I don't know why you keep saying that since no one is disputing it.

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

---

Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

sombear said:

---

Ukraine has huge problems, including those you lay out here. So do we and virtually every other country. Satan is real and is doing real damage. It's worth pointing out, however, that Ukraine and Russia are trending in opposite directions on virtually all of those issues.

But none of that has anything to do with my main point - that in every statistical and practical way, Ukraine is worlds more friendly and favorable to Christians and Christianity than Russia, which is anti-Christian in every material way.

---

Ukraine to consider legalising same-sex marriage amid war
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62134804

Russia adds 'LGBT movement' to list of extremist and terrorist organisations
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-adds-lgbt-movement-list-extremist-terrorist-organisations-2024-03-22/

Unfortunately, your characterization isn't correct. Ukraine is being subsumed into the globohomo pagan culture that now rules the west, while Russia is building Christian chapels in rest areas as it returns to its Christian roots.

---

Christian chapels...

Think you mean the state-sponsored Russian Orthodox chapels.

---

There you go again with "Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity."

---

Again, said no one ever.

State-sponsored Orthodox Churches may be Christian. But Christianity encompasses a much larger and broader group that mere Orthodox.

But you do bring up a good point. When you're the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may no longer be doing Christ's work.

---

So when he said Christian chapels, he meant Christian chapels.

---

Do the chapels include every other denomination, or simply the state-sponsored mouthpiece of Russian propaganda as opposed to Christ teachings?

That's a rhetorical question. I realize you're not qualified to answer.

---

Russian Orthodox churches may be Christian, but they're opposed to Christ's teachings? How does that work?

---

See post above. When you're merely the mouthpiece of the little dictator, you may not be doing Christ work.

I realize you're Catholic, but you do realize Christians encompass more than a single sect or denomination, correct?

---

Of course. I don't know why you keep saying that since no one is disputing it.

---

Glad to hear you acknowledge these were not mere Christian chapels, and that the more appropriate term was Russian orthodox chapels. It's surprising it took you this long to get to that position.

---

🗞️ The situation in Kharkiv Oblast is under control of the Defense Forces. Certain units abandoned their positions, which allowed Russians to capture a few settlements. Thanks to 57th Motorized, 92nd Assault Brigades and Kraken, the situation was stabilized. #RussiaUkraineWar pic.twitter.com/UjrzjL7jbL

— MilitaryLand.net (@Militarylandnet) May 11, 2024

"There is a decision of the command to reinforce our units, and it is already being implemented. The enemy is localized in the gray zone and is not expanding its area of control. However, there is a need to completely destroy them and catch them in the forest plantations where… pic.twitter.com/OhqhUqgx0e

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) May 11, 2024

Redbrickbear said:

---

Secondly, the renovationist Ecumenical Patriarchs are willing partners in Washington's campaign to spread liberal, democratic values across the globe.

---

Quote:

---

At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

---

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

At the same time, Putin allows the Russian mob to run prostitution, drug, murder-for-hire, sex trafficking, kidnapping, and child porn rings unimpeded. I'll take gay right over those things any day of the week.

---

...and our government has allowed cartels to run the very same things in the United States for a decade.

Maybe if you get out of the Russia! Russia! Russia! camp for a bit, you'll understand that crime - even organized crime - happens in every society (even orderly Japan). The difference is whether your leader fights it, or as in the case of Brandon is aiding and abetting it.

---