Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

Agree. I remember when we were taught positive things about our Nation and it was a good thing to be an American.

Now, all I hear about is the 20% we do poorly or screwed up and no mention of the 80% of the positives that come from living in the US and what the US does.

4 years under a screw up like Biden in American is still better than 1 day under a tyrant like Putin. But, I am sure there will be some on here that will say no. They live in the US, take advantage of the opportunities in the US, got educated in the US, yet the US is worse than Russia and poor victimized Putin. Amazing. I do miss Reagan and the esprit de corps that we seemed to feel. Just my opinion. I am sure I will hear how wrong I am...

---

Nobody here wants to live in an oligarchy like Russia.

The problem is primarily around the war in Afghanistan which shows our political elite will abuse war. They spent $8 Trillion of taxpayer money on failed nation building, got a bunch of innocent people killed and we're expected to forgive and forget about it as if it was an honest mistake. It clearly shows they're terrible at decision making when it comes to war. I don't want to hear any bs like "we've learned from our mistakes", we haven't. The reason that war lasted so long is because it laundered money through the iron triangle of congress.

Based on this I assume the goal of our political elite to pull the strings of the Ukraine war to purposely mimic a forever war. There's too much money at stake for that not to be the case. They're not interested in fulfilling what you think is right which is to get Russia to back off. What they interested in is CAUSING WW3 or a war that will last at minimum a decade.

What we fundamentally disagree on is that you believe the US isn't full of wolves in sheep's clothing in power and that they're honest people with good intentions. They're obviously not good people, they're in it for the money.

This is what it feels like:

---

We're up to $8 Trillion now? This is a fish story that keeps getting bigger and badder…

BTW, there have been more war casualties in Russia's invasion of Ukraine than there was in the 20 years of Afghanistan. Crazy, huh?

---

Yes $8 Trillion

Source: https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-09-01/costsofwar

Quote:

---

The death toll, standing at an estimated 897,000 to 929,000, includes U.S. military members, allied fighters, opposition fighters, civilians, journalists and humanitarian aid workers who were killed as a direct result of war, whether by bombs, bullets or fire. It does not, the researchers noted, include the many indirect deaths the war on terror has caused by way of disease, displacement and loss of access to food or clean drinking water.

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

Agree. I remember when we were taught positive things about our Nation and it was a good thing to be an American.

Now, all I hear about is the 20% we do poorly or screwed up and no mention of the 80% of the positives that come from living in the US and what the US does.

4 years under a screw up like Biden in American is still better than 1 day under a tyrant like Putin. But, I am sure there will be some on here that will say no. They live in the US, take advantage of the opportunities in the US, got educated in the US, yet the US is worse than Russia and poor victimized Putin. Amazing. I do miss Reagan and the esprit de corps that we seemed to feel. Just my opinion. I am sure I will hear how wrong I am...

---

Nobody here wants to live in an oligarchy like Russia.

The problem is primarily around the war in Afghanistan which shows our political elite will abuse war. They spent $8 Trillion of taxpayer money on failed nation building, got a bunch of innocent people killed and we're expected to forgive and forget about it as if it was an honest mistake. It clearly shows they're terrible at decision making when it comes to war. I don't want to hear any bs like "we've learned from our mistakes", we haven't. The reason that war lasted so long is because it laundered money through the iron triangle of congress.

Based on this I assume the goal of our political elite to pull the strings of the Ukraine war to purposely mimic a forever war. There's too much money at stake for that not to be the case. They're not interested in fulfilling what you think is right which is to get Russia to back off. What they interested in is CAUSING WW3 or a war that will last at minimum a decade.

What we fundamentally disagree on is that you believe the US isn't full of wolves in sheep's clothing in power and that they're honest people with good intentions. They're obviously not good people, they're in it for the money.

This is what it feels like:

---

We're up to $8 Trillion now? This is a fish story that keeps getting bigger and badder…

BTW, there have been more war casualties in Russia's invasion of Ukraine than there was in the 20 years of Afghanistan. Crazy, huh?

---

Yes $8 Trillion

Source: https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-09-01/costsofwar

Quote:

---

The death toll, standing at an estimated 897,000 to 929,000, includes U.S. military members, allied fighters, opposition fighters, civilians, journalists and humanitarian aid workers who were killed as a direct result of war, whether by bombs, bullets or fire. It does not, the researchers noted, include the many indirect deaths the war on terror has caused by way of disease, displacement and loss of access to food or clean drinking water.

---

---

Aside from the fact that everyone acknowledges the Brown study is overstated by varying amounts, you said Afghanistan.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Now we have moved straight to nuclear annihilation of our cities??? Go past 21st century weapons, NATO troops on the ground and straight to nukes? Those submarines mentioned earlier make sure that doesn't happen.

OR does having them upset Vlad and we should just stand down the triad so he doesn't get madder?

---

Submarines are no guarantee of anything. You'd better think through to the end because there won't be much time after NATO troops try and fail. What then...escalate or back down?

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

It's thick-headed because you're using it as an excuse not to think through our own actions. We can debate who the aggressor is till we're blue in the face. Children on the playground do the same thing every day. It won't matter when the bombs start falling. There won't be any teacher you can run to and cry "but but they started it!"

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

My question is what is their answer? Ignore it? I guess just say not our concern, good luck...

SicEm: We could ignore the problem, sir.

Buck Murdock: You mean go homehope everything turns out OK in the morning? I've considered it. There's got to be a better way.

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

I've considered it. There's got to be a better way.

---

I'm listening.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

I've considered it. There's got to be a better way.

---

I'm listening.

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it. Unless Putin believes NATO will actually stop him, he will keep in going.

---

He doesn't believe NATO will actually stop him.

Your move.

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

Agree. I remember when we were taught positive things about our Nation and it was a good thing to be an American.

Now, all I hear about is the 20% we do poorly or screwed up and no mention of the 80% of the positives that come from living in the US and what the US does.

4 years under a screw up like Biden in American is still better than 1 day under a tyrant like Putin. But, I am sure there will be some on here that will say no. They live in the US, take advantage of the opportunities in the US, got educated in the US, yet the US is worse than Russia and poor victimized Putin. Amazing. I do miss Reagan and the esprit de corps that we seemed to feel. Just my opinion. I am sure I will hear how wrong I am...

---

Nobody here wants to live in an oligarchy like Russia.

The problem is primarily around the war in Afghanistan which shows our political elite will abuse war. They spent $8 Trillion of taxpayer money on failed nation building, got a bunch of innocent people killed and we're expected to forgive and forget about it as if it was an honest mistake. It clearly shows they're terrible at decision making when it comes to war. I don't want to hear any bs like "we've learned from our mistakes", we haven't. The reason that war lasted so long is because it laundered money through the iron triangle of congress.

Based on this I assume the goal of our political elite to pull the strings of the Ukraine war to purposely mimic a forever war. There's too much money at stake for that not to be the case. They're not interested in fulfilling what you think is right which is to get Russia to back off. What they interested in is CAUSING WW3 or a war that will last at minimum a decade.

What we fundamentally disagree on is that you believe the US isn't full of wolves in sheep's clothing in power and that they're honest people with good intentions. They're obviously not good people, they're in it for the money.

This is what it feels like:

---

We're up to $8 Trillion now? This is a fish story that keeps getting bigger and badder…

BTW, there have been more war casualties in Russia's invasion of Ukraine than there was in the 20 years of Afghanistan. Crazy, huh?

---

Yes $8 Trillion

Source: https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-09-01/costsofwar

Quote:

---

The death toll, standing at an estimated 897,000 to 929,000, includes U.S. military members, allied fighters, opposition fighters, civilians, journalists and humanitarian aid workers who were killed as a direct result of war, whether by bombs, bullets or fire. It does not, the researchers noted, include the many indirect deaths the war on terror has caused by way of disease, displacement and loss of access to food or clean drinking water.

---

---

Aside from the fact that everyone acknowledges the Brown study is overstated by varying amounts, you said Afghanistan.

---

Does it really matter? We spent trillions on a failed war.

It doesn't really matter what I say, you guys are going to get WW3 and you don't mind how much bloodshed or money it costs.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

I've considered it. There's got to be a better way.

---

I'm listening.

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it. Unless Putin believes NATO will actually stop him, he will keep in going.

---

He doesn't believe NATO will actually stop him.

Your move.

---

Ukraine enters NATO and Russia leaves Donbas, keeps Crimea ... Done.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

I've considered it. There's got to be a better way.

---

I'm listening.

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it. Unless Putin believes NATO will actually stop him, he will keep in going.

---

He doesn't believe NATO will actually stop him.

Your move.

---

Ukraine enters NATO and Russia leaves Donbas, keeps Crimea ... Done.

---

We've been saying this all along. That's not a plan. How are you going to make it happen militarily, and what cost are you willing to pay?

Attacking Russia's nuclear defenses has pushed us up another rung on the escalatory ladder. It hasn't got us any closer to taking back Crimea (or the Donbas). How many times are we planning to do it? What else are we going to do? What will be the result, which will lead to the next result, which will lead to Russia's defeat?

NATO is in no condition to fight a land war with Russia. Turkey is better prepared than most, but there's a good chance they won't participate. America would have to mobilize and ship hundreds of thousands of troops across the Atlantic, not to mention weapons, vehicles, ammo, etc. You know the Russians won't just sit there and watch it happen. What's the actual plan?

We're just throwing stuff at the wall without any real strategy. And you still haven't told me what happens when none of it works.

ETA: Just realized you were saying they keep Crimea. That's at least an offer, so proper credit given. It's still not a military plan in case they refuse, which they will.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

Ukraine has rare minerals and is a slush fund.

Jack and DP said:

---

Ukraine has rare minerals and is a slush fund.

---

Lindsey did say the quiet part out loud, didn't he?

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

Good grief. Lol!!! Pretty much copied and pasted from Kremlin propaganda bots.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

Good grief. Lol!!! Pretty much copied and pasted from Kremlin propaganda bots.

---

Quote one sentence that you find factually contentious.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

Good grief. Lol!!! Pretty much copied and pasted from Kremlin propaganda bots.

---

Quote one sentence that you consider factually contentious.

---

You know which ones vatnik and if you're too stupid to figure it out, then at least that's an excuse. But many on here know it's not that. There isn't an enemy of the US you won't bend over and lift your skirt for and spread their propaganda. It's quite funny to see the same messages pushed out by the bots elsewhere and then crapped out on here.

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

Good grief. Lol!!! Pretty much copied and pasted from Kremlin propaganda bots.

---

Quote one sentence that you consider factually contentious.

---

You know which ones vatnik and if you're too stupid to figure it out, then at least that's an excuse. But many on here know it's not that. There isn't an enemy of the US you won't bend over and lift your skirt for and spread their propaganda. It's quite funny to see the same messages pushed out by the bots elsewhere and then crapped out on here.

---

So you got nothing.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

Good grief. Lol!!! Pretty much copied and pasted from Kremlin propaganda bots.

---

Quote one sentence that you consider factually contentious.

---

You know which ones vatnik and if you're too stupid to figure it out, then at least that's an excuse. But many on here know it's not that. There isn't an enemy of the US you won't bend over and lift your skirt for and spread their propaganda. It's quite funny to see the same messages pushed out by the bots elsewhere and then crapped out on here.

---

So you got nothing.

---

Like I said....

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

It's thick-headed because you're using it as an excuse not to think through our own actions. We can debate who the aggressor is till we're blue in the face. Children on the playground do the same thing every day. It won't matter when the bombs start falling. There won't be any teacher you can run to and cry "but but they started it!"

---

Maybe we're the teacher, Russia the playground bully, and Ukraine our student and bully's current target. You're ready to set up a lunch money payment plan and terms for slide use because you're scared the bully's going to punch the teacher. We haven't even seen if the student can hold their own yet. Some would argue they are. We know what the bully wants with his current target, but the teacher is trying to figure out how many other students are at risk, and what's required to limit the damage on the current and future students. We're thinking through our actions, just not from your simple acquiescence to might is right.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

It's thick-headed because you're using it as an excuse not to think through our own actions. We can debate who the aggressor is till we're blue in the face. Children on the playground do the same thing every day. It won't matter when the bombs start falling. There won't be any teacher you can run to and cry "but but they started it!"

---

Maybe we're the teacher, Russia the playground bully, and Ukraine our student and bully's current target. You're ready to set up a lunch money payment plan and terms for slide use because you're scared the bully's going to punch the teacher. We haven't even seen if the student can hold their own yet. Some would argue they are. We know what the bully wants with his current target, but the teacher is trying to figure out how many other students are at risk, and what's required to limit the damage on the current and future students. We're thinking through our actions, just not from your simple acquiescence to might is right.

---

I'm not telling you to acquiesce or not. I'm just asking what you intend to do…or whether you've really thought about it.

If you're going with might, how do you plan to win?

If you're going with right, what are you prepared to pay?

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

The 2012 re-establishment of Putin back into power is likely the seminal moment. He spent his Prime Ministerial period consolidating power and rolled back much of the progress Medvedev had established. Medvedev was willing to entertain the U.S. as the unipolar global power. Putin was not, and his actions showed. It regressed even faster since their Crimean invasion.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

The 2012 re-establishment of Putin back into power is likely the seminal moment. He spent his Prime Ministerial period consolidating power and rolled back much of the progress Medvedev had established. Medvedev was willing to entertain the U.S. as the unipolar global power. Putin was not, and his actions showed. It regressed even faster since their Crimean invasion.

---

I can't believe you said that, but I knew you were going to say that. I almost said, "Don't just tell me it's Putin." The lord of all demons and source of ultimate evil. And imagine him not entertaining the US as the unipolar global power!

So you're telling me that of all the blustering fanatics we've dealt since WW2, Putin is the worst one and the only one we can't trust or reason with. I just want to get you on the record with that.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

I'd rather live, period. I don't need to dictate how Russians and Ukrainians live if it means WW3.

How many American cities are you willing to trade for Kharkiv?

---

Better question is how many is Putin? If it's all his cities then the cause to resist is even more important. If it isn't then we walk back to acceptable lines.

---

It's an unbelievably thick-headed question, but never mind that. You still haven't said how we get back to "acceptable lines." The latest aid package has shown no sign of stopping the Russians. What's next?

---

How is asking the belligerent what their limit is a "thick headed question"?

You keep looking for an answer from the defensive not the offensive parties. The line started with "don't indiscriminately invade your European neighbor". I don't think that's changed. You're so eaten up with blame everyone but Russia to justify it, you're ignoring the most important component of the situation.

---

It's thick-headed because you're using it as an excuse not to think through our own actions. We can debate who the aggressor is till we're blue in the face. Children on the playground do the same thing every day. It won't matter when the bombs start falling. There won't be any teacher you can run to and cry "but but they started it!"

---

Maybe we're the teacher, Russia the playground bully, and Ukraine our student and bully's current target. You're ready to set up a lunch money payment plan and terms for slide use because you're scared the bully's going to punch the teacher. We haven't even seen if the student can hold their own yet. Some would argue they are. We know what the bully wants with his current target, but the teacher is trying to figure out how many other students are at risk, and what's required to limit the damage on the current and future students. We're thinking through our actions, just not from your simple acquiescence to might is right.

---

I'm not telling you to acquiesce or not. I'm just asking what you intend to do…or whether you've really thought about it.

If you're going with might, how do you plan to win?

If you're going with right, what are you prepared to pay?

---

I think we're still assessing how much Russia is willing to lose over Ukraine. The underestimated factor (which Afghanistan should have wisened both us and Putin to) is how far will Ukraine fight for itself. If Russia wanted to pull this conflict back, there are several actions they could take to indicate it. Until that point I imagine the grind approach will continue.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

The 2012 re-establishment of Putin back into power is likely the seminal moment. He spent his Prime Ministerial period consolidating power and rolled back much of the progress Medvedev had established. Medvedev was willing to entertain the U.S. as the unipolar global power. Putin was not, and his actions showed. It regressed even faster since their Crimean invasion.

---

I can't believe you said that, but I knew you were going to say that. I almost said, "Don't just tell me it's Putin." The lord of all demons and source of ultimate evil.

So you're telling me that of all the blustering fanatics we've dealt since WW2, Putin is the worst one and the only one we can't trust or reason with. I just want to get you on the record with that.

---

You asked what happened with Russia. I told you the likely seminal moment. I'm not comparing and contrasting anyone. But you can track the expansion of tyranny, political, economic, and social inter Russia from that point forward, and also coincides with the chilling of relations with the US.

Of course you bring up an interesting consideration. After Vietnam, the USSR never threatened us and the West as boldly and directly as in Ukraine.

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

These guys get it.

Polish President Duda speaking at Zelensky’s peace summit in 🇨🇭:

“Russia, called the ‘prison of nations,’ is home to 200+ ethnic groups, most acquired through colonial methods.

Unlike European powers, Russia never decolonized and remains the world's largest colonial empire” pic.twitter.com/tJEHTYC4dW

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 15, 2024

---

---

You guys sure like Russia. Or maybe just dislike the US??? I don't know but there really seems to be support for Putin's Special Military Operation among a group. Really, struggling to see why invading another Nation is a "good thing", yet selling weapons to a Nation to defend itself is evil. Really puzzled...

---

They want the US to be more like Russia.

---

What puzzles me is that I see Russia literally forcing Nations to do what they want, with tanks, and that is fine. I see China literally occupying Tibet, Hong Kong, and trying to get Taiwan with force.

I don't see NATO or the US forcing anyone to apply, you have to apply and be accepted into NATO. Yet, according to some on this Board, the US is the bad guy... Poor Putin is being forced to invade Ukraine.

If the US WAS like Putin's Russia, the US would invade and hold Ukraine, invade and hold Cuba, and not allow navigation around the US. But, poor Putin. He is the real victim in this.

Just don't get it. Only thing that makes sense is that they are Attorneys and are trying to see if they can defend the indefensible. Some legal training exercise.

---

I think they just equate the West/NATO with leftist progressives and see Russia as a force against that.

I think they would rather live in a dictatorship of their party than a democracy involving opposing views.

---

Agree. I remember when we were taught positive things about our Nation and it was a good thing to be an American.

Now, all I hear about is the 20% we do poorly or screwed up and no mention of the 80% of the positives that come from living in the US and what the US does.

4 years under a screw up like Biden in American is still better than 1 day under a tyrant like Putin. But, I am sure there will be some on here that will say no. They live in the US, take advantage of the opportunities in the US, got educated in the US, yet the US is worse than Russia and poor victimized Putin. Amazing. I do miss Reagan and the esprit de corps that we seemed to feel. Just my opinion. I am sure I will hear how wrong I am...

---

Nobody here wants to live in an oligarchy like Russia.

The problem is primarily around the war in Afghanistan which shows our political elite will abuse war. They spent $8 Trillion of taxpayer money on failed nation building, got a bunch of innocent people killed and we're expected to forgive and forget about it as if it was an honest mistake. It clearly shows they're terrible at decision making when it comes to war. I don't want to hear any bs like "we've learned from our mistakes", we haven't. The reason that war lasted so long is because it laundered money through the iron triangle of congress.

Based on this I assume the goal of our political elite to pull the strings of the Ukraine war to purposely mimic a forever war. There's too much money at stake for that not to be the case. They're not interested in fulfilling what you think is right which is to get Russia to back off. What they interested in is CAUSING WW3 or a war that will last at minimum a decade.

What we fundamentally disagree on is that you believe the US isn't full of wolves in sheep's clothing in power and that they're honest people with good intentions. They're obviously not good people, they're in it for the money.

This is what it feels like:

---

We're up to $8 Trillion now? This is a fish story that keeps getting bigger and badder…

BTW, there have been more war casualties in Russia's invasion of Ukraine than there was in the 20 years of Afghanistan. Crazy, huh?

---

Yes $8 Trillion

Source: https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-09-01/costsofwar

Quote:

---

The death toll, standing at an estimated 897,000 to 929,000, includes U.S. military members, allied fighters, opposition fighters, civilians, journalists and humanitarian aid workers who were killed as a direct result of war, whether by bombs, bullets or fire. It does not, the researchers noted, include the many indirect deaths the war on terror has caused by way of disease, displacement and loss of access to food or clean drinking water.

---

---

Aside from the fact that everyone acknowledges the Brown study is overstated by varying amounts, you said Afghanistan.

---

Does it really matter? We spent trillions on a failed war.

It doesn't really matter what I say, you guys are going to get WW3 and you don't mind how much bloodshed or money it costs.

---

We failed on a nation build (twice). When's the last terrorist attack here?

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Easy the same strategy that worked from 1949 to 1990, show strength and mean it.

---

This is not the same world that existed in the previous century.

The USSR is gone.

America is not the same country.

Adapting to a constantly changing chess board is critical to a successful foreign policy.

---

But Putin is a 1960's Soviet Premier. He is not a 21st century leader. That is your problem, you think you are dealing with an enlightened Obams globalist. He is not, he is a 20th Century KGB thug.

---

No one thinks Putin is an Obama globalist. The baffling question is why anyone would expect him to be.

Even during the Cold War, no one said WW3 was inevitable. Much less that it had already started. We did our best to avoid it. We dealt with the Russians whether we liked them or not. We made agreements. We respected certain boundaries.

We're now told that Russia is relentlessly hostile by nature and can never be redeemed. If that's true, why did we ever try to make peace with them? Were we lying and intending to fight them all along?

My question to all the Russophobes is, what changed?

I've explained what I think it was. America got caught up in the idea of a unipolar world, full spectrum dominance, the end of history, etc. There's a ton of literature and conversation about it, but you don't believe it.

Something must have happened to Russia to make it even more of a threat than it was during the height of Cold War tensions, when Khrushchev was putting missiles in Cuba and ranting about burying the capitalist states. So much of a threat that we can no longer negotiate or cooperate with them in any way, lest the world be plunged into tyranny and suffering.

So, what happened? I think that's your burden to explain.

---

The 2012 re-establishment of Putin back into power is likely the seminal moment. He spent his Prime Ministerial period consolidating power and rolled back much of the progress Medvedev had established. Medvedev was willing to entertain the U.S. as the unipolar global power. Putin was not, and his actions showed. It regressed even faster since their Crimean invasion.

---

I can't believe you said that, but I knew you were going to say that. I almost said, "Don't just tell me it's Putin." The lord of all demons and source of ultimate evil.

So you're telling me that of all the blustering fanatics we've dealt since WW2, Putin is the worst one and the only one we can't trust or reason with. I just want to get you on the record with that.

---

You asked what happened with Russia. I told you the likely seminal moment. I'm not comparing and contrasting anyone. But you can track the expansion of tyranny, political, economic, and social inter Russia from that point forward, and also coincides with the chilling of relations with the US.

Of course you bring up an interesting consideration. After Vietnam, the USSR never threatened us and the West as boldly and directly as in Ukraine.

---

The problem is that your explanation tracks with mine. I agree that relations chilled because Putin's government wouldn't accept the US as a unipolar power. No Soviet government would have either, nor did we ever expect them to. So it was the US that changed, not Russia.

Welcome to cuck status, Russian shill.