The thing is... Trump did say US troops are off the table so what Vance says doesn't really mean ****

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Y'all still spiking your footballs?????

In an Interview yesterday with the Wall Street Journal, U.S. Vice-President JD Vance stated that the United States would issue Major Sanctions against the Russian Federation, as well as possibly deploy Troops to Ukraine, if Russian President Vladimir Putin does not come to the… pic.twitter.com/QkiJFhaZ9s

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) February 14, 2025

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lol you are citing a well known Ukranian propaganda twitter account...

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Uh, Vance's comments are quoted all over the place.

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Holy crap. Read the headline Wall Street Journal printed next to the actual transcript of the interview with @JDVance. This is one of the most intentionally dishonest things I've seen in a long time. When Did @WSJ turn into the Huffington Post? pic.twitter.com/9J8TuzwFmv

— Andrew Surabian (@Surabees) February 14, 2025

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WSJ got it right. Andrew has trouble with reading comprehension.

"Everything on the table" could not be clearer, particularly after a question on troops.

WSJ 1, X Warrior 0.

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"Everything on the table" is standard pre-negotiation talk. It's not a promise of anything.

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Read in conjunction with the answers about asserting leverage if Russia is unreasonable, it is a perfectly accurate summation.

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I think the more one looks at the context, the less accurate that reading appears. There's a passing reference to military action, on what's arguably a list of items in descending order of importance, contrasted with what he says is the president's fundamental wish, followed by a paragraph that's all about Russia's interest in economic relations with the West as opposed to China. He couldn't have downplayed the military angle any more if he'd been trying, and that's because he was trying as hard as he could. The final exchange is almost comical. The reporter is desperately trying to pin him down before the interview ends, and Vance is having none of it.

So, it's a possibility. Not a promise by any means.

---

The pledge was the "potential" for troops. That is 100% accurate.

Although I disagree, I at least see the opposing view on the pledge of economic sanctions. One can at least argue there not a pledge of anything guaranteed. But, again, I believe Vance made it clear that the first card Trump will play if Russia is unreasonable is increased sanctions.

And Vance had every chance to say "U.S. troops are completely off the table." In fact, I expected that. But he did not. In fact, he responded to the direct question on it by saying "everything is on the table."

---

True, although Hegseth did take US troops off the table "as part of any security guarantee." I guess that leaves the possibility that we won't send troops to enforce any deal but might send them in order obtain a deal in the first place. That seems like an odd position to take. The fact that Kellogg has been sidelined from the negotiations is also telling.

Anyway, you're certainly right that there have been wildly inconsistent statements. The ultimate position of Trump's administration is the big question in my mind. I don't think Russia's position is going to change much.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Y'all still spiking your footballs?????

In an Interview yesterday with the Wall Street Journal, U.S. Vice-President JD Vance stated that the United States would issue Major Sanctions against the Russian Federation, as well as possibly deploy Troops to Ukraine, if Russian President Vladimir Putin does not come to the… pic.twitter.com/QkiJFhaZ9s

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) February 14, 2025

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lol you are citing a well known Ukranian propaganda twitter account...

---

Uh, Vance's comments are quoted all over the place.

---

Holy crap. Read the headline Wall Street Journal printed next to the actual transcript of the interview with @JDVance. This is one of the most intentionally dishonest things I've seen in a long time. When Did @WSJ turn into the Huffington Post? pic.twitter.com/9J8TuzwFmv

— Andrew Surabian (@Surabees) February 14, 2025

---

WSJ got it right. Andrew has trouble with reading comprehension.

"Everything on the table" could not be clearer, particularly after a question on troops.

WSJ 1, X Warrior 0.

---

"Everything on the table" is standard pre-negotiation talk. It's not a promise of anything.

---

Read in conjunction with the answers about asserting leverage if Russia is unreasonable, it is a perfectly accurate summation.

---

I think the more one looks at the context, the less accurate that reading appears. There's a passing reference to military action, on what's arguably a list of items in descending order of importance, contrasted with what he says is the president's fundamental wish, followed by a paragraph that's all about Russia's interest in economic relations with the West as opposed to China. He couldn't have downplayed the military angle any more if he'd been trying, and that's because he was trying as hard as he could. The final exchange is almost comical. The reporter is desperately trying to pin him down before the interview ends, and Vance is having none of it.

So, it's a possibility. Not a promise by any means.

---

The pledge was the "potential" for troops. That is 100% accurate.

Although I disagree, I at least see the opposing view on the pledge of economic sanctions. One can at least argue there not a pledge of anything guaranteed. But, again, I believe Vance made it clear that the first card Trump will play if Russia is unreasonable is increased sanctions.

And Vance had every chance to say "U.S. troops are completely off the table." In fact, I expected that. But he did not. In fact, he responded to the direct question on it by saying "everything is on the table."

---

True, although Hegseth did take US troops off the table "as part of any security guarantee." I guess that leaves the possibility that we won't send troops to enforce any deal but might send them in order obtain a deal in the first place. That seems like an odd position to take. The fact that Kellogg has been sidelined from the negotiations is also telling.

Anyway, you're certainly right that there have been wildly inconsistent statements. The ultimate position of Trump's administration is the big question in my mind. I don't think Russia's position is going to change much.

---

Agree. Impossible to keep up. Who knows, maybe it's planned chaos . . . .

🚨Update: Peace Negotiations Continue!! Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov holds telephone conversation with US Secretary of State Marco Rubio! pic.twitter.com/SXOVnKdy2w

— US Homeland Security News (@defense_civil25) February 15, 2025

sombear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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The main cause of inflation over the last five years, since COVID, has been government spending.

Trillions of dollars have been printed out of thin air.

I know you consider yourself an erudite man beyond repute... but this is pretty basic stuff.

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Ukraine spending is less than 1/10 of our defense budget, and a majority was equipment/weapons we already had and would no longer use. Ending Ukraine spending will have zero effect on inflations.

BTW Trump is proposing a significant increase to the defense budget.

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You are a ****ing idiot if you truly believe that and too stupid to take seriously.

My god there are some real low IQ folks in this thread...

And for the record, yes the defense budget should be slashed in half every year until they can pass an audit.

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Then please provide some evidence-backed data on how ending .02% of our federal budget while
Increasing overall defense spending is going to reduce inflation.

---

Reporter's Notebook: Ukrainian spiritual leader says Russian Orthodox Church extension of Kremlin

Leaders of Orthodox Church of Ukraine say Putin believes he's fighting a 'holy war' against the West
By Lauren Green [url=https://www.foxnews.com/][/url]Fox News

As President Donald Trump's administration works toward a diplomatic end to the war in Ukraine, the leaders of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) are warning that Vladimir Putin's Russia believes it's actually fighting a "holy war" against the West.

A delegation from the OCU was in the United States recently for the International Religious Freedom Summit in Washington, D.C. The group was led by His Beatitude Metropolitan Epiphany, leader of Kyiv and all of Ukraine.
His translator spoke to Fox News about the spiritual war raging between Russia and Ukraine, which has played a big role in why the battle began and continues to escalate.

His eminence Metropolitan Yevstratiy, the deputy head of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine's external church relations, says of Russia, "From the point of religious view, this is a liberation of Ukrainians from [the] Godless West, from the evil. And Russia brings to Ukraine the light and truth."

Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.

Writing in the magazine First Things, Weigel noted "… Ukraine mounted and sustained a fierce resistance that denied Russia the quick victory Putin anticipated in February 2022, Russian justifications for the war began to take on a new coloration: The war was now a crusade in defense of Christian civilization."

On Lighthouse Faith podcast, Yevstratiy recalled how at the start of the war, Moscow's Patriarch Kirill sermonized to Russian soldiers fighting against Ukraine that if they die in battle they would immediately go to paradise… all sins forgiven. Even to an outsider looking at the complexity of Orthodox Christianity, that sounds more like 'Political Jihad' than the Gospel.

In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

Yevstratiy also revealed a scarier version of the war in Ukraine. He says Putin's ultimate goal is more than the reunification of the Soviet Union, or the defense of Christian civilization. It's actually more apocalyptic. He's focused on ushering in the third and final Rome.... in Moscow, which means, labeling the rest of Christianity, Catholics and Protestants alike... as heretics and pagans.

Describing the inner workings of the Orthodox churches may seem a little like 'inside baseball'. But these are the oldest churches of Christianity. They emerged from the five ancient churches led by the apostles who knew Jesus personally.

The apostle Andrew went to the east in Constantinople; Mark to Alexandria (Egypt); Peter to Antioch (Rome); James to Jerusalem, and Barnabas to Cyprus. From these men, along with the itinerant Apostle Paul, Christianity spread throughout the globe. So, this conflict between Russia and Ukraine has deep spiritual roots. And Putin knows it.

sombear said:

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Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.



In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

---

Everybody knows that the Russian Orthodox Church is funded by the Russian government. But did you know that the Ecumenical Patriarch's side has been funded by the US Government? The Atlantic piece didn't tell the whole complex geopolitical story. More: https://t.co/3PTSrd7Qhc pic.twitter.com/OqcQcBITkZ

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) April 12, 2024

Unfortunately it looks like Ukrainians had a choice of a Church (ROC) controlled by Putin or a Church (OCU) controlled by Zelensky

Mike Pompeo and other defense contractors are working with the Biden regime to purge the hierarchal Orthodox Church, to replace it to one under the regime’s control.https://t.co/6HVs8ky64P

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) October 3, 2024

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.



In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

---

Everybody knows that the Russian Orthodox Church is funded by the Russian government. But did you know that the Ecumenical Patriarch's side has been funded by the US Government? The Atlantic piece didn't tell the whole complex geopolitical story. More: https://t.co/3PTSrd7Qhc pic.twitter.com/OqcQcBITkZ

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) April 12, 2024

Unfortunately it looks like Ukrainians had a choice of a Church (ROC) controlled by Putin or a Church (OCU) controlled by Zelensky

Mike Pompeo and other defense contractors are working with the Biden regime to purge the hierarchal Orthodox Church, to replace it to one under the regime’s control.https://t.co/6HVs8ky64P

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) October 3, 2024

---

Now, that's funny . . . comparing a one-time 100k grant to an int'l Orthodox website with Putin's church . . . then following it up with an article laying out the obvious - that Ukraine is not going to allow The Russian/KGB church to operate in Ukraine in support of Russia's invasion.

Cerno continues to break wind instead of news . . .

---

The U.S. governments relationship and funding for the Ecumenical Patriarch goes back a long long time.

And far more than $100k in taxpayer funding

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government…]

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-cias-man-in-constantinople/

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.



In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

---

Everybody knows that the Russian Orthodox Church is funded by the Russian government. But did you know that the Ecumenical Patriarch's side has been funded by the US Government? The Atlantic piece didn't tell the whole complex geopolitical story. More: https://t.co/3PTSrd7Qhc pic.twitter.com/OqcQcBITkZ

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) April 12, 2024

Unfortunately it looks like Ukrainians had a choice of a Church (ROC) controlled by Putin or a Church (OCU) controlled by Zelensky

Mike Pompeo and other defense contractors are working with the Biden regime to purge the hierarchal Orthodox Church, to replace it to one under the regime’s control.https://t.co/6HVs8ky64P

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) October 3, 2024

---

Now, that's funny . . . comparing a one-time 100k grant to an int'l Orthodox website with Putin's church . . . then following it up with an article laying out the obvious - that Ukraine is not going to allow The Russian/KGB church to operate in Ukraine in support of Russia's invasion.

Cerno continues to break wind instead of news . . .

---

The U.S. governments relationship and funding for the Ecumenical Patriarch goes back a long long time.

And far more than $100k in taxpayer funding

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government…]

---

Deeply beholden?

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.



In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

---

Everybody knows that the Russian Orthodox Church is funded by the Russian government. But did you know that the Ecumenical Patriarch's side has been funded by the US Government? The Atlantic piece didn't tell the whole complex geopolitical story. More: https://t.co/3PTSrd7Qhc pic.twitter.com/OqcQcBITkZ

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) April 12, 2024

Unfortunately it looks like Ukrainians had a choice of a Church (ROC) controlled by Putin or a Church (OCU) controlled by Zelensky

Mike Pompeo and other defense contractors are working with the Biden regime to purge the hierarchal Orthodox Church, to replace it to one under the regime’s control.https://t.co/6HVs8ky64P

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) October 3, 2024

---

Now, that's funny . . . comparing a one-time 100k grant to an int'l Orthodox website with Putin's church . . . then following it up with an article laying out the obvious - that Ukraine is not going to allow The Russian/KGB church to operate in Ukraine in support of Russia's invasion.

Cerno continues to break wind instead of news . . .

---

The U.S. governments relationship and funding for the Ecumenical Patriarch goes back a long long time.

And far more than $100k in taxpayer funding

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government…]

---

Deeply beholden?

---

Read the article


The EP has been in bed with DC since the early part of the Cold War

Its followers have also declined significantly in Turkey thanks to Muslim persecution and expulsion of the ethnic Greek population. Leaving the church with declining followers and in need of financial support

[…the United States government officially supports the doctrine of Greek papism, as will be shown. Strengthening the Ecumenical Patriarchate's position within global Orthodoxy serves two purposes.
First, it necessarily subtracts from the influence of Constantinople's rival, the Moscow Patriarchate. Washington regards Russian Orthodoxy as a tool for Kremlin propaganda and, therefore, a legitimate target for counterintelligence operations.
Secondly, the renovationist Ecumenical Patriarchs are willing partners in Washington's campaign to spread liberal, democratic values across the globe.]

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.



In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

---

Everybody knows that the Russian Orthodox Church is funded by the Russian government. But did you know that the Ecumenical Patriarch's side has been funded by the US Government? The Atlantic piece didn't tell the whole complex geopolitical story. More: https://t.co/3PTSrd7Qhc pic.twitter.com/OqcQcBITkZ

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) April 12, 2024

Unfortunately it looks like Ukrainians had a choice of a Church (ROC) controlled by Putin or a Church (OCU) controlled by Zelensky

Mike Pompeo and other defense contractors are working with the Biden regime to purge the hierarchal Orthodox Church, to replace it to one under the regime’s control.https://t.co/6HVs8ky64P

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) October 3, 2024

---

Now, that's funny . . . comparing a one-time 100k grant to an int'l Orthodox website with Putin's church . . . then following it up with an article laying out the obvious - that Ukraine is not going to allow The Russian/KGB church to operate in Ukraine in support of Russia's invasion.

Cerno continues to break wind instead of news . . .

---

The U.S. governments relationship and funding for the Ecumenical Patriarch goes back a long long time.

And far more than $100k in taxpayer funding

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government…]

---

Deeply beholden?

---

No doubt. Anything coming from the OCU should be taken with a large grain of salt.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Yevstratiy, and other church watchers like Catholic intellectual George Weigel, have accused the Russian Orthodox Church of being nothing more than an arm of the Kremlin, dressed in religious vestments but doing Putin's bidding.



In 2019, Ukraine's Orthodox Church was granted independence from the Russian Orthodox Church by the ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). It caused an uproar in Moscow. Kirill and Putin refused to recognize the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew.

---

Everybody knows that the Russian Orthodox Church is funded by the Russian government. But did you know that the Ecumenical Patriarch's side has been funded by the US Government? The Atlantic piece didn't tell the whole complex geopolitical story. More: https://t.co/3PTSrd7Qhc pic.twitter.com/OqcQcBITkZ

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) April 12, 2024

Unfortunately it looks like Ukrainians had a choice of a Church (ROC) controlled by Putin or a Church (OCU) controlled by Zelensky

Mike Pompeo and other defense contractors are working with the Biden regime to purge the hierarchal Orthodox Church, to replace it to one under the regime’s control.https://t.co/6HVs8ky64P

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) October 3, 2024

---

Now, that's funny . . . comparing a one-time 100k grant to an int'l Orthodox website with Putin's church . . . then following it up with an article laying out the obvious - that Ukraine is not going to allow The Russian/KGB church to operate in Ukraine in support of Russia's invasion.

Cerno continues to break wind instead of news . . .

---

The U.S. governments relationship and funding for the Ecumenical Patriarch goes back a long long time.

And far more than $100k in taxpayer funding

[Everyone knows that the Moscow Patriarchate is in bed with the Kremlin. Few realize that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is deeply beholden to the United States government…]

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-cias-man-in-constantinople/

---

Very interesting.

However I still hope Trump continues to cut all such foreign funding.

sombear said:

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I am not Orthodox, but I've been surrounded by it most of my life. 90% of my relatives on one side are Serbian Orthodox. My wife's family are Russian immigrants and have a long history with the Russian Orthodox Church. Another part of our family is Greek Orthodox. BTW, the Russian orthodox church in the U.S. is different than the ROC.

I have the utmost respect for the church, so I don't say any of this to be critical, but rather just stating facts that many who do not follow the Orthodox churches probably don't know.

Orthodox churches have long been closely connected with their governments. More recently, for example, the Serbian church supported Milosevic and spoke out in favor of those wars. Unfortunately, Kirill - former KGB - in Russia is a Putin shill and has spoken out aggressively in favor of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The Orthodox church also is exceedingly hierarchical. So, for example, the various Russian orthodox churches are governed by Kirill, and he dictates everything from church positions, how the church is run, and Divine Liturgies (weekly services, sermons worship.).

Two reasons for this background. One, when people hear complaints (usually from folks with no understanding) of Ukraine "banning Russian churches," they likely compare it to banning Christian churches here in the U.S. But it's nothing like that. When Ukraine "banned" the ROC, it was not in any way banning the Ortho church or communities, but rather, only those officially governed by and beholden to Kirill. Fortunately, many of those Ukrainian ROC priests disavowed Kirill, stopped referencing him during services, and spoke out against the invasion. Many changed to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine - not Russia-affiliated.

BTW, many also do not know that Putin and Russian agents tried mightily to prevent the formation of the OCU in the first place and used threats, coercion, and worse to keep priests and layfolk in the ROC

Two, there is nothing unusual about Eastern Orthodox Churches working with governments. Many such churches were anti-communists, including the Russian church. But since the fall of communism, various churches have taken different positions relative to democratic values, and even freedom of religion. The Russian church, for example, supported laws restricting other religions and again, has supported Putin. Other eastern churches have supported freedom and democracy.

It should surprise nobody that governments of all kinds - from Russia, to Greece, to Romania, to the U.S. and elsewhere - lend support and work with Ortho churches that share their values. That has been done for thousands of years.

But it is ludicrous to suggest that non-Russian orthodox churches are controlled by or beholden to the U.S. Frankly, that is deeply offensive to the Orthodox church.

---

More good information.

This thread has evolved into that message board rarity.

Quality content worth reading.

Doc Holliday said:

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ZELENSKYY: The risk that Russia will occupy Europe is 100 percent

WELKER: If the US pulls out of NATO, Russia will occupy Europe?

ZELENSKYY: Yes pic.twitter.com/QlxUoED6sW

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 16, 2025

Remember guys, Russia is struggling to fight Ukraine, but is in fact so strong that they could occupy all of Europe/NATO…

Stupid.

---

It's really really dumb propaganda

No one buys it but it is apparently the only talking point they can come up with

historian said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Europeans have had a decade to do this….but they won't

Now would be the perfect time for European states to get together, say "thank you to America for everything you have done since 1941, but times have changed", and then go off and commit themselves alone to help Ukraine achieve victory as soon as possible.

— Phillips P. OBrien (@PhillipsPOBrien) February 15, 2025

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Europeans won't do anything substantial because it's not very important to them. They don't even care about the Islamization of their civilization, the rape gangs & murders, and all the rest.

---

Again I go back to Serbia in the 90ties... when the Serbs were fighting for their very survival against the Muslims, Team America bombed the **** out of them....

The message America sent to the Europeans from that point forward was that if you use violence to defend yourselves... we will destroy you.

And unfortunately the only way to deal with Muslims is with violence. It is the only language they understand.

Redbrickbear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

ZELENSKYY: The risk that Russia will occupy Europe is 100 percent

WELKER: If the US pulls out of NATO, Russia will occupy Europe?

ZELENSKYY: Yes pic.twitter.com/QlxUoED6sW

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 16, 2025

Remember guys, Russia is struggling to fight Ukraine, but is in fact so strong that they could occupy all of Europe/NATO…

Stupid.

---

It's really really dumb propaganda

No one buys it but it is apparently the only talking point they can come up with

---

Serious question, which granted I think is unlikely hypothetical but one many Russians think is possible and one that some of MAGA wants:

Let's say hypothetically, the U.S. abandons Europe militarily.

Do you think Putin would go after more Euro countries in that scenario?

I don't know the answer. I'm probably 50-50. But, if you've spent substantial time in Europe, you'd know they mostly believe he would.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ZELENSKYY: The risk that Russia will occupy Europe is 100 percent

WELKER: If the US pulls out of NATO, Russia will occupy Europe?

ZELENSKYY: Yes pic.twitter.com/QlxUoED6sW

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 16, 2025

Remember guys, Russia is struggling to fight Ukraine, but is in fact so strong that they could occupy all of Europe/NATO…

Stupid.

---

It's really really dumb propaganda

No one buys it but it is apparently the only talking point they can come up with

---

Serious question, which granted I think is unlikely hypothetical but one many Russians think is possible and one that some of MAGA wants:

Let's say hypothetically, the U.S. abandons Europe militarily.

Do you think Putin would go after more Euro countries in that scenario?

I don't know the answer. I'm probably 50-50. But, if you've spent substantial time in Europe, you'd know they mostly believe he would.

---

Europe has already been invaded and conquered... and the US allowed it to happen... at least with Russia they might be able to launch some type of Reconquista effort.

The older I get the more I realize the biggest threat to Anglos and Europeans is my own government bcs all these little socialist/globalist EU government would fall apart tomorrow without American backing.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ZELENSKYY: The risk that Russia will occupy Europe is 100 percent

WELKER: If the US pulls out of NATO, Russia will occupy Europe?

ZELENSKYY: Yes pic.twitter.com/QlxUoED6sW

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 16, 2025

Remember guys, Russia is struggling to fight Ukraine, but is in fact so strong that they could occupy all of Europe/NATO…

Stupid.

---

It's really really dumb propaganda

No one buys it but it is apparently the only talking point they can come up with

---

Serious question, which granted I think is unlikely hypothetical but one many Russians think is possible and one that some of MAGA wants:

Let's say hypothetically, the U.S. abandons Europe militarily.

Do you think Putin would go after more Euro countries in that scenario?

I don't know the answer. I'm probably 50-50. But, if you've spent substantial time in Europe, you'd know they mostly believe he would.

---

You are already playing around with wrong hypotheticals

You are personally afraid that the USA will abandon NATO/Europe

No one on the MAGA side is advocating the end of NATO

In fact Congress in the last NDAA funding bill put another stipulation forbidding a President from withdrawing from NATO without Senate approval.

Its not even on the table

It would never pass the Senate even if it was proposed (which it's not being proposed)

PS

Even if the USA disappeared tomorrow into a wormhole the Europeans can easy out match Russia

The EU has 449 million people

Russia has 146 million

And Russia has an economy far smaller and far less efficient and far behind the powerful UK, German, French, and Dutch economies

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ZELENSKYY: The risk that Russia will occupy Europe is 100 percent

WELKER: If the US pulls out of NATO, Russia will occupy Europe?

ZELENSKYY: Yes pic.twitter.com/QlxUoED6sW

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) February 16, 2025

Remember guys, Russia is struggling to fight Ukraine, but is in fact so strong that they could occupy all of Europe/NATO…

Stupid.

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It's really really dumb propaganda

No one buys it but it is apparently the only talking point they can come up with

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Serious question, which granted I think is unlikely hypothetical but one many Russians think is possible and one that some of MAGA wants:

Let's say hypothetically, the U.S. abandons Europe militarily.

Do you think Putin would go after more Euro countries in that scenario?

I don't know the answer. I'm probably 50-50. But, if you've spent substantial time in Europe, you'd know they mostly believe he would.

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You are already playing around with wrong hypotheticals

You are personally afraid that the USA will abandon NATO/Europe

No one on the MAGA side is advocating the end of NATO

In fact Congress in the last NDAA funding bill put another stipulation forbidding a President from withdrawing from NATO without Senate approval.

Its not even on the table

It would never pass the Senate even if it was proposed (which it's not being proposed)

PS

Even if the USA disappeared tomorrow into a wormhole the Europeans can easy out match Russia

The EU has 449 million people

Russia has 146 million

And Russia has an economy far smaller and far less efficient and far behind the powerful UK, German, French, and Dutch economies

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I said it was an unlikely hypothetical.

But you're wrong about MAGA. I could spend 20 minutes on X and find you 30 examples of MAGA saying we should leave NATO. Trump has made that very threat. And even short of leaving NATO, Trump floated just this week that perhaps the U.S. should focus its military strategy on Asia and leave Europe to the Euros.

And, look, I'm very familiar with the numbers you site. But you're discounting the oil and gas control Russia has over the continent.

But, regardless, are you saying it's a 0% chance. 5%? 10%? 20%

Truly curious.

If you polled Euros right now, I guarantee 1/3 minimum would say, yes, Putin would invade more Euros.

Coincidentally look what just came across my feed.

Time to leave NATO

Let’s go!

Who else is with President Trump on this! https://t.co/tLkpWWaU5q

— Mike Lee (@BasedMikeLee) February 16, 2025

sombear said:

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Coincidentally look what just came across my feed.

Time to leave NATO

Let’s go!

Who else is with President Trump on this! https://t.co/tLkpWWaU5q

— Mike Lee (@BasedMikeLee) February 16, 2025

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It will literally never happen…

[The United States has maintained longstanding support to NATO. Most recently, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024, enacted on December 22, 2023, prohibits the President from unilaterally withdrawing from NATO without approval of a two-third Senate super-majority or an act of Congress.]


You will never find enough Republicans or Democrats to get the votes necessary to leave the alliance


[A two-thirds supermajority in the Senate is 67 out of 100 senators, while a two-thirds supermajority in the House is 290 out of 435 representatives.]

sombear said:

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I am not Orthodox, but I've been surrounded by it most of my life. 90% of my relatives on one side are Serbian Orthodox. My wife's family are Russian immigrants and have a long history with the Russian Orthodox Church. Another part of our family is Greek Orthodox. BTW, the Russian orthodox church in the U.S. is different than the ROC.

I have the utmost respect for the church, so I don't say any of this to be critical, but rather just stating facts that many who do not follow the Orthodox churches probably don't know.

Orthodox churches have long been closely connected with their governments. More recently, for example, the Serbian church supported Milosevic and spoke out in favor of those wars. Unfortunately, Kirill - former KGB - in Russia is a Putin shill and has spoken out aggressively in favor of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The Orthodox church also is exceedingly hierarchical. So, for example, the various Russian orthodox churches are governed by Kirill, and he dictates everything from church positions, how the church is run, and Divine Liturgies (weekly services, sermons worship.).

Two reasons for this background. One, when people hear complaints (usually from folks with no understanding) of Ukraine "banning Russian churches," they likely compare it to banning Christian churches here in the U.S. But it's nothing like that. When Ukraine "banned" the ROC, it was not in any way banning the Ortho church or communities, but rather, only those officially governed by and beholden to Kirill. Fortunately, many of those Ukrainian ROC priests disavowed Kirill, stopped referencing him during services, and spoke out against the invasion. Many changed to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine - not Russia-affiliated.

BTW, many also do not know that Putin and Russian agents tried mightily to prevent the formation of the OCU in the first place and used threats, coercion, and worse to keep priests and layfolk in the ROC

Two, there is nothing unusual about Eastern Orthodox Churches working with governments. Many such churches were anti-communists, including the Russian church. But since the fall of communism, various churches have taken different positions relative to democratic values, and even freedom of religion. The Russian church, for example, supported laws restricting other religions and again, has supported Putin. Other eastern churches have supported freedom and democracy.

It should surprise nobody that governments of all kinds - from Russia, to Greece, to Romania, to the U.S. and elsewhere - lend support and work with Ortho churches that share their values. That has been done for thousands of years.

But it is ludicrous to suggest that non-Russian orthodox churches are controlled by or beholden to the U.S. Frankly, that is deeply offensive to the Orthodox church.

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Several points here that I would address.

1. It's true that Orthodoxy has always been closely tied with politics. I would argue that was the reason for the Eastern Schism in the first place. So, to say the Russian patriarch speaks in favor of his government's wars means very little. Even many Protestant churches in America do the same, and more to the point, so does the newly created Ukrainian church. They are all within their rights to do so. What the Russians don't do is ban other churches, brutally attack their congregants and clergy, and confiscate or destroy their property. Ukraine does all of these things to the Russian Orthodox.

2. Banning Orthodox churches with a connection to Russia is indeed banning Russian churches. It would be as if the US government banned Catholic churches governed by Rome, established a so-called American Catholic Church, and insisted that nothing had changed because all of those Catholic communities could continue existing as long as they renounced the pope and spoke out in favor of American policy.

3. I know you may not agree, but I must keep making the point that opposing Putin is not the equivalent of supporting democracy. Ukraine hasn't been a democracy in any meaningful sense for quite some time, and at this point it's no better than a tin-pot dictatorship ruled by an assortment of thugs, opportunists, and fanatics who are trying to sweep up as much ill-gotten gain as they can while they race for the exit.

4. The OCU would not exist, and would have no reason to exist, if not for the Western policy of sowing ethnic, religious, and political discord in Ukraine. Its origin has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with politics, as evidenced by the rhetoric of Poroshenko, the loyal Ukrainian hierarchy, and American supporters like Biden, McCain, et al.

sombear said:

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Coincidentally look what just came across my feed.

Time to leave NATO

Let’s go!

Who else is with President Trump on this! https://t.co/tLkpWWaU5q

— Mike Lee (@BasedMikeLee) February 16, 2025

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Check the context note on that post which states Trump never advocated for leaving.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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I am not Orthodox, but I've been surrounded by it most of my life. 90% of my relatives on one side are Serbian Orthodox. My wife's family are Russian immigrants and have a long history with the Russian Orthodox Church. Another part of our family is Greek Orthodox. BTW, the Russian orthodox church in the U.S. is different than the ROC.

I have the utmost respect for the church, so I don't say any of this to be critical, but rather just stating facts that many who do not follow the Orthodox churches probably don't know.

Orthodox churches have long been closely connected with their governments. More recently, for example, the Serbian church supported Milosevic and spoke out in favor of those wars. Unfortunately, Kirill - former KGB - in Russia is a Putin shill and has spoken out aggressively in favor of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The Orthodox church also is exceedingly hierarchical. So, for example, the various Russian orthodox churches are governed by Kirill, and he dictates everything from church positions, how the church is run, and Divine Liturgies (weekly services, sermons worship.).

Two reasons for this background. One, when people hear complaints (usually from folks with no understanding) of Ukraine "banning Russian churches," they likely compare it to banning Christian churches here in the U.S. But it's nothing like that. When Ukraine "banned" the ROC, it was not in any way banning the Ortho church or communities, but rather, only those officially governed by and beholden to Kirill. Fortunately, many of those Ukrainian ROC priests disavowed Kirill, stopped referencing him during services, and spoke out against the invasion. Many changed to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine - not Russia-affiliated.

BTW, many also do not know that Putin and Russian agents tried mightily to prevent the formation of the OCU in the first place and used threats, coercion, and worse to keep priests and layfolk in the ROC

Two, there is nothing unusual about Eastern Orthodox Churches working with governments. Many such churches were anti-communists, including the Russian church. But since the fall of communism, various churches have taken different positions relative to democratic values, and even freedom of religion. The Russian church, for example, supported laws restricting other religions and again, has supported Putin. Other eastern churches have supported freedom and democracy.

It should surprise nobody that governments of all kinds - from Russia, to Greece, to Romania, to the U.S. and elsewhere - lend support and work with Ortho churches that share their values. That has been done for thousands of years.

But it is ludicrous to suggest that non-Russian orthodox churches are controlled by or beholden to the U.S. Frankly, that is deeply offensive to the Orthodox church.

---

Several points here that I would address.

1. It's true that Orthodoxy has always been closely tied with politics. I would argue that was the reason for the Eastern Schism in the first place. So, to say the Russian patriarch speaks in favor of his government's wars means very little. Even many Protestant churches in America do the same, and more to the point, so does the newly created Ukrainian church. They are all within their rights to do so. What the Russians don't do is ban other churches, brutally attack their congregants and clergy, and confiscate or destroy their property. Ukraine does all of these things to the Russian Orthodox.

2. Banning Orthodox churches with a connection to Russia is indeed banning Russian churches. It would be as if the US government banned Catholic churches governed by Rome, established a so-called American Catholic Church, and insisted that nothing had changed because all of those Catholic communities could continue existing as long as they renounced the pope and spoke out in favor of American policy.

3. I know you may not agree, but I must keep making the point that opposing Putin is not the equivalent of supporting democracy. Ukraine hasn't been a democracy in any meaningful sense for quite some time, and at this point it's no better than a tin-pot dictatorship ruled by an assortment of thugs, opportunists, and fanatics who are trying to sweep up as much ill-gotten gain as they can while they race for the exit.

4. The OCU would not exist, and would have no reason to exist, if not for the Western policy of sowing ethnic, religious, and political discord in Ukraine. Its origin has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with politics, as evidenced by the rhetoric of Poroshenko, the loyal Ukrainian hierarchy, and American supporters like Biden, McCain, et al.

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Good response.

To clarify my point:

We agree on the Orth church aligning with gov positions. But, to me, the key distinction is that, while in the U.S. we have may individual pastors speaking out on wars - although I'd argue it's mostly praying for troops rather than outright supporting the war - we have nothing even remotely comparable to an Eastern Orth church where the leader (e.g., Kirill) literally speaks for the church, and churches literally follow.

So, again, when Ukraine banned the ROC, it was literally just banning the pro-Russian and Russian-supporting church. Orth priests and members were free to worship, express their faith, etc., and the church doctrines are identical, outside or purely political positions.

For example, let's say China invaded the U.S., and there were Chinese Christian churches who literally took orders from China church leaders, openly supported the invasion, helped the Chinese, and spoke out against American troops and other American Christians. There is no doubt in my mind that we would ban that church, and we might one charge them with treason. We would not be banning their faith. They would be free to worship at the million other Christian churches.

I'm not aware of the Ukraine gov brutally attacking members of the ROC. I am aware of Putin thugs attacking OCU members and priests. That said, during a war where Russia invaded, I have no doubt it has happened on both sides.

I believe the OCU would definitely exist. As you referenced, East Orth church have splintered/disaffiliated for centuries based mostly on gov/geopolitcal issues - rarely doctrine issues. "Free countries" have their own Orth churches. Others have their own. Heck, it's why ROC has changed so frequently and become independent.

Correct, I disagree. Ukraine is most certainly a democracy.

Doc Holliday said:

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sombear said:

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Coincidentally look what just came across my feed.

Time to leave NATO

Let’s go!

Who else is with President Trump on this! https://t.co/tLkpWWaU5q

— Mike Lee (@BasedMikeLee) February 16, 2025

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Check the context note on that post which states Trump never advocated for leaving.

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Trump has made numerous conflicting statements on NATO and Euro military alliances in general. Heck, MAGA thinks his inconsistencies are a strength and that he's playing chess while others play checkers . . . .

And here we have a MAGA Senator - and he's far from alone - explicitly calling for it. Bizarro world.

NATO served its purpose. The Soviet Union no longer exists.

NATO hasnt done anything to protect western countries from being invaded by Africa and the Middle East.

If anything it has compounded the problem by aiding the invaders.

Its a vestigial organization of a bygone era.

The_barBEARian said:

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NATO served its purpose. The Soviet Union no longer exists.

NATO hasnt done anything to protect western countries from being invaded by Africa and the Middle East.

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NATO needs to stay around because if the US and the EU countries will hit their 2% GDP spending marks then the West will be far an above any potential enemies in the future.

Countries like China, the Islamic world, or whoever comes in the future will never be able to spend enough to catch up to the West.

This spending of 2% GDP is also not a huge burden on modern Western budgets and drives military and tech innovation.

NATO not defending Europe from a migrant invasion is a different issue....they don't do that because Western elites have wanted mass migration