KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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historian said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Zelensky needs to show some damn respect. We've gifted him billions of dollars.

Trump to Zelensky: "Your country is in big trouble. No, no, you've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. You're not winning this." pic.twitter.com/R6Ibmxqe2m

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) February 28, 2025

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lmao, no we didn't gift him anything according to Trump

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The last administration did. We gotta get that money back, he's making threats.

American strength on display, especially when Zelensky tries making a veiled threat. Our country is putting up with this anymore!

pic.twitter.com/0sqoPiSWwe

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) February 28, 2025

I've told yall this several times, but both Russia and Ukraine are corrupt. Ukraine are not Americans, Europeans nor westerners.

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Just to be clear, you don't think America is corrupt?

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Biden ("the big guy"), the rest of the Dems, and most of the RINO's proved there is plenty of corruption in America. I'm not saying true republicans are pure as the driven snow. They are as human as everyone else. But mafia levels of corruption like we saw under Clinton, Obama, & especially Biden are the realm of so-called "Democrats". They are fascists.

The list of scandals and cover-ups by the Dems seems to be endless just in the past few years. Yet it has been going on for decades.

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It's a good thing the founding fathers weren't corrupt. The slave farms had solid core values

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Nice, trying to attack the Founding Fathers

You are a real Patriot

For the record

[The exact number of signers who owned slaves is disputed, but most estimates but the number at 17 of the 55 delegates]

So about 30%

So 70% of the Founding Father never owned a slave.

And the ones that did inherited a slave economy in existence long before they were born (one that long existed in West Africa)

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I'm sorry that the literal truth hurts your feelings

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Not at all

But unlike you I like to be accurate and state the real history

Nor to I attack great men of the past and call them corrupt

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Are you saying you can't be a great man if you owned slaves?

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And yes….George Washington and Thomas Jefferson remain great men…slaves or no slaves

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Jefferson was….

A mediocre president at best.

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I disagree

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Produced by our diplomats in France and Napolean's need for cash.

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Still….Presidents get to claim what our diplomats work on and what geo-political circumstances allow

A big win for TJ

One for the world history books!

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TJ had so many loses it is hard to know where to begin.

He routinely raped his female slaves.
.

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Rush to Judgment on Thomas Jefferson is an Offense to History

The DNA evidence does not support the claim that the author of The Declaration of Independence took advantage of an enslaved woman

by Eric Hobby

I am neither a historian nor a Thomas Jefferson expert, but Eric… pic.twitter.com/lZWSeLkzmu

— Michael Shellenberger (@shellenberger) May 28, 2024

This is a provable lie, @nytimes. DNA connects a Jefferson male's DNA to only one of Sally Hemings' children -- most likely Jefferson's younger brother, Randolph.

"[Jefferson] fathered six children with one of them, Sally Hemings."https://t.co/01wbxsbtPH

— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) October 19, 2021

KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

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What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

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What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

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LOL

Have read many accounts of his life.

Even his white children knew about his slave relations.

The dude was born to money and lived the life of a spoiled brat.

Easily the most overrated president in US history.

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Remember this trash. pic.twitter.com/zePQG2fgsO

— Councilman Harnish (@PaleoGOP) March 1, 2025

Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

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What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

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LOL

Have read many accounts of his life.

Even his white children knew about his slave relations.

The dude was born to money and lived the life of a spoiled brat.

Easily the most overrated president in US history.

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Got this one in my library

Again the sally story is far from provable

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

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What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

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LOL

Have read many accounts of his life.

Even his white children knew about his slave relations.

The dude was born to money and lived the life of a spoiled brat.

Easily the most overrated president in US history.

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Got this one in my library

Again the sally story is far from provable

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LOL

Then nothing is provable.


And I read this one as well.

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

---

What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

---

LOL

Have read many accounts of his life.

Even his white children knew about his slave relations.

The dude was born to money and lived the life of a spoiled brat.

Easily the most overrated president in US history.

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Got this one in my library

Again the sally story is far from provable

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LOL

Then nothing is provable.


And I read this one as well.

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Buddy there is a lot of things in life and history provable

But not this story you are strangely determined to believe

It might be true…it also might not

[A 1998-1999 DNA test found a match between a descendant of the Jefferson family and a descendant of Hemings' youngest son, Eston.]

That is all we know for sure


PS

[Jefferson's granddaughter, Ellen Randolph Coolidge, blamed Jefferson's nephew Samuel Carr for the paternity of Hemings' children]

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

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Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

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every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

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FLBear5630 said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

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The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

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Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

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JUST IN: 🇷🇺 Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs says it's a miracle how Trump and Vance restrained themselves and didn't punch Zelensky. pic.twitter.com/6nAduzwZg0

— BRICS News (@BRICSinfo) February 28, 2025

ATL Bear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

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Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

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There it is. Trump Cabinet member Scott Bessent says Zelensky already twice refused to sign a minerals deal with the U.S. under Trump. Twice. This 3rd time was most definitely planned.

pic.twitter.com/tnDB7a9a5r

— Eric Daugherty (@EricLDaugh) March 1, 2025

Yep, and even one of his biggest supporters — Lindsey Graham — just said, “Zelenskyy has to go.”

— Rock/Hard Place (@txtarheeldad) February 28, 2025