Remember this trash. pic.twitter.com/zePQG2fgsO

— Councilman Harnish (@PaleoGOP) March 1, 2025

The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Now allow me to give you a compliment whiterock.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen you make.

Well done!

JUST IN: 🇷🇺 Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs says it's a miracle how Trump and Vance restrained themselves and didn't punch Zelensky. pic.twitter.com/6nAduzwZg0

— BRICS News (@BRICSinfo) February 28, 2025

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

There it is. Trump Cabinet member Scott Bessent says Zelensky already twice refused to sign a minerals deal with the U.S. under Trump. Twice. This 3rd time was most definitely planned.

pic.twitter.com/tnDB7a9a5r

— Eric Daugherty (@EricLDaugh) March 1, 2025

Yep, and even one of his biggest supporters — Lindsey Graham — just said, “Zelenskyy has to go.”

— Rock/Hard Place (@txtarheeldad) February 28, 2025

Today Zelensky vindicated the American right and humiliated the neocons and Elite Human Capital (TM) who think understand politics and foreign policy.

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) March 1, 2025

Talking points in alignment.

The insolent pig finally got a proper slap down in the Oval Office. And @realDonaldTrump is right: The Kiev regime is "gambling with WWIII."

— Dmitry Medvedev (@MedvedevRussiaE) February 28, 2025

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire with no guarantees or violative repercussions with a party already known to have violated multiple ceasefires in the past.

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.
That's because you apparently have not noticed the fissure in the west which has been apparent and growing for quite a while. Go watch Vance's speech in Munich. It was a remarkable moment in history - the American populist right rising to the defense of classical liberalism which the Western Left has categorically rejected. Historians will talk about that speech centuries from now.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky.
You are projecting here. Trump did nothing to stop him, and given what we know about Trump he most certainly would not have hesitated to do so had he been so inclined. Clear implication is that both Trump and Vance (and Rubio as well) are exasperated with Zelinsky's intransigence.

He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum.
His comments about conscription were weak. Zelinsky countered well by pointing out Vance had never been to Ukraine (implying Vance was not well informed). Vance recognized that and moved on. Unfortunately, Zelinsky just kept on playing his worse hand. And Vance put the epee squarely in the center of Zelinsky's chest and pushed it in all the way to the hilt by calling out the disrespectfulness of what Zelinsky had done - using a White House presser to reopen concluded negotiations and badger his hosts. It was disrespectful to the Trump Admin. It was disrespectful to America. It was disrespectful to his own team, who clearly had no idea he was going to do that. If you aren't going to sign the deal, don't come.

The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin.
Oh stop it with the neverTrump nonsesnse. Zelinsky showed the world today why Trump is saying what he's saying - it's Zelinsky that is the obstacle to peace at this moment, completely unreasonable, thinking HE is going to drive a wedge in Nato and leverage it to force concessions out of Trump. It's megalomaniacal.

I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all.
LOL he screwed himself. Coming to Washington DC to sign an agreement and then using the press conference to reopen the negotiations is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in foreign policy. Who in their right mind would allow such a process to unfold then act like that? (apparently not realizing the man he's dealing with is not going to be bullied into anything.....)

You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that.
There's only two ways to stop a war if you're unwilling to negotiate - achieve victory or defeat. I am quite confident we could win this one in 12-24 months. The equations are horrible for Russia, considerably worse than for Ukraine (as long as they have outside help). Ukraine is willing to spend the blood to do that. But are the American people willing to spend the money? Nope. Biden should have known that. Free societies don't like wars unless they are won quickly.....tiring quickly of quagmires (which attrition warfare looks like to the casual observer). And while it is frustrating to have watched Biden fritter away goodwill while pursuing an unwise policy (incredibly cautious escalation management), we have to recognize the moment has passed. Political support is eroding away. Trump''s mines for munitions deal was an enormous achievement - Russia SAID it invaded to stop growth of Nato, but now it has Sweden and Finland in the alliance and massive US direct investments right along the Russian border. That's not Nato, but it's the next best thing (for Ukraine).

All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.
You're misreading the situation. Trump knows that. He also knows he is operating on a $2T budget deficit amid macroeconomy flirting with stagflation. It's an existential crisis for his presidency (and not terribly far from that for the country). He MUST slash spending. And $100b/yr in aid to Ukraine is a big enough number to be a priority. So you seek a peace to lock in your gains (Russia stymied), fix the domestic problems, and come back to work on foreign policy later.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.
Trump has said the deal is on the table and Zelinsky is welcome back to sign it. Balls in Zelinsky's court.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Zelinsky did a bait & switch. He let his team negotiate a deal with America. He agreed to come to America to sign the deal. And then he showed up and shat all over the deal. It's almost like he let the whole thing go forward so he could have a chance to poke Trump in the eye in front of the whole world. Childish.

Trump throws haymakers in public, says & does hitherto unpresidential things with out the slightest blush. but he's never done anything like what Zelinsky did.

To the extent these dynamics force Europe to gain more independence from America on defense issues......fantastic. Finally. They are spending money to help defend themselves rather than living off of the American taxpayer.

ATL Bear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire with no guarantees or violative repercussions with a party already known to have violated multiple ceasefires in the past.

---

that part in bold is not true.

A trade deal with the USA is an enormous deal. Putin risks war if he messes with that.

It also provides Zelinsky with an amount of money EQUAL to what the USA has provided thus far, all available for immediate use to purchase weapons. Other European countries were willing to put troops in Ukraine before this deal came available, and European troop presence IN Ukraine (without Article 5 umbrella) was a part of the peace negotiations.

Trump's proposal was the absolute best one could hope for given circumstances (which include a decision not to dump in more money directly and win it on the battlefield).

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.
That's because you apparently have not noticed the fissure in the west which has been apparent and growing for quite a while. Go watch Vance's speech in Munich. It was a remarkable moment in history - the American populist right rising to the defense of classical liberalism which the Western Left has categorically rejected. Historians will talk about that speech centuries from now.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky.
You are projecting here. Trump did nothing to stop him, and given what we know about Trump he most certainly would not have hesitated to do so had he been so inclined. Clear implication is that both Trump and Vance (and Rubio as well) are exasperated with Zelinsky's intransigence.

He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum.
His comments about conscription were weak. Zelinsky countered well by pointing out Vance had never been to Ukraine (implying Vance was not well informed). Vance recognized that and moved on. Unfortunately, Zelinsky just kept on playing his worse hand. And Vance put the epee squarely in the center of Zelinsky's chest and pushed it in all the way to the hilt by calling out the disrespectfulness of what Zelinsky had done - using a White House presser to reopen concluded negotiations and badger his hosts. It was disrespectful to the Trump Admin. It was disrespectful to America. It was disrespectful to his own team, who clearly had no idea he was going to do that. If you aren't going to sign the deal, don't come.

The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin.
Oh stop it with the neverTrump nonsesnse. Zelinsky showed the world today why Trump is saying what he's saying - it's Zelinsky that is the obstacle to peace at this moment, completely unreasonable, thinking HE is going to drive a wedge in Nato and leverage it to force concessions out of Trump. It's megalomaniacal.

I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all.
LOL he screwed himself. Coming to Washington DC to sign an agreement and then using the press conference to reopen the negotiations is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in foreign policy. Who in their right mind would allow such a process to unfold then act like that? (apparently not realizing the man he's dealing with is not going to be bullied into anything.....)

You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that.
There's only two ways to stop a war if you're unwilling to negotiate - achieve victory or defeat. I am quite confident we could win this one in 12-24 months. The equations are horrible for Russia, considerably worse than for Ukraine (as long as they have outside help). Ukraine is willing to spend the blood to do that. But are the American people willing to spend the money? Nope. Biden should have known that. Free societies don't like wars unless they are won quickly.....tiring quickly of quagmires (which attrition warfare looks like to the casual observer). And while it is frustrating to have watched Biden fritter away goodwill while pursuing an unwise policy (incredibly cautious escalation management), we have to recognize the moment has passed. Political support is eroding away. Trump''s mines for munitions deal was an enormous achievement - Russia SAID it invaded to stop growth of Nato, but now it has Sweden and Finland in the alliance and massive US direct investments right along the Russian border. That's not Nato, but it's the next best thing (for Ukraine).

All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.
You're misreading the situation. Trump knows that. He also knows he is operating on a $2T budget deficit amid macroeconomy flirting with stagflation. It's an existential crisis for his presidency (and not terribly far from that for the country). He MUST slash spending. And $100b/yr in aid to Ukraine is a big enough number to be a priority. So you seek a peace to lock in your gains (Russia stymied), fix the domestic problems, and come back to work on foreign policy later.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.
Trump has said the deal is on the table and Zelinsky is welcome back to sign it. Balls in Zelinsky's court.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Zelinsky did a bait & switch. He let his team negotiate a deal with America. He agreed to come to America to sign the deal. And then he showed up and shat all over the deal. It's almost like he let the whole thing go forward so he could have a chance to poke Trump in the eye in front of the whole world. Childish.

Trump throws haymakers in public, says & does hitherto unpresidential things with out the slightest blush. but he's never done anything like what Zelinsky did.

To the extent these dynamics force Europe to gain more independence from America on defense issues......fantastic. Finally. They are spending money to help defend themselves rather than living off of the American taxpayer.

---

There are reports this morning that Trump changed the deal before Zelensky arrived and removed security guarantees. We'll see if that is proven accurate. If so, Zelensky's conduct, while still a major unforced error, at least makes more sense. Absent that, it appears he just lost his composure at the worst possible time.

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.
That's because you apparently have not noticed the fissure in the west which has been apparent and growing for quite a while. Go watch Vance's speech in Munich. It was a remarkable moment in history - the American populist right rising to the defense of classical liberalism which the Western Left has categorically rejected. Historians will talk about that speech centuries from now.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky.
You are projecting here. Trump did nothing to stop him, and given what we know about Trump he most certainly would not have hesitated to do so had he been so inclined. Clear implication is that both Trump and Vance (and Rubio as well) are exasperated with Zelinsky's intransigence.

He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum.
His comments about conscription were weak. Zelinsky countered well by pointing out Vance had never been to Ukraine (implying Vance was not well informed). Vance recognized that and moved on. Unfortunately, Zelinsky just kept on playing his worse hand. And Vance put the epee squarely in the center of Zelinsky's chest and pushed it in all the way to the hilt by calling out the disrespectfulness of what Zelinsky had done - using a White House presser to reopen concluded negotiations and badger his hosts. It was disrespectful to the Trump Admin. It was disrespectful to America. It was disrespectful to his own team, who clearly had no idea he was going to do that. If you aren't going to sign the deal, don't come.

The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin.
Oh stop it with the neverTrump nonsesnse. Zelinsky showed the world today why Trump is saying what he's saying - it's Zelinsky that is the obstacle to peace at this moment, completely unreasonable, thinking HE is going to drive a wedge in Nato and leverage it to force concessions out of Trump. It's megalomaniacal.

I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all.
LOL he screwed himself. Coming to Washington DC to sign an agreement and then using the press conference to reopen the negotiations is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in foreign policy. Who in their right mind would allow such a process to unfold then act like that? (apparently not realizing the man he's dealing with is not going to be bullied into anything.....)

You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that.
There's only two ways to stop a war if you're unwilling to negotiate - achieve victory or defeat. I am quite confident we could win this one in 12-24 months. The equations are horrible for Russia, considerably worse than for Ukraine (as long as they have outside help). Ukraine is willing to spend the blood to do that. But are the American people willing to spend the money? Nope. Biden should have known that. Free societies don't like wars unless they are won quickly.....tiring quickly of quagmires (which attrition warfare looks like to the casual observer). And while it is frustrating to have watched Biden fritter away goodwill while pursuing an unwise policy (incredibly cautious escalation management), we have to recognize the moment has passed. Political support is eroding away. Trump''s mines for munitions deal was an enormous achievement - Russia SAID it invaded to stop growth of Nato, but now it has Sweden and Finland in the alliance and massive US direct investments right along the Russian border. That's not Nato, but it's the next best thing (for Ukraine).

All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.
You're misreading the situation. Trump knows that. He also knows he is operating on a $2T budget deficit amid macroeconomy flirting with stagflation. It's an existential crisis for his presidency (and not terribly far from that for the country). He MUST slash spending. And $100b/yr in aid to Ukraine is a big enough number to be a priority. So you seek a peace to lock in your gains (Russia stymied), fix the domestic problems, and come back to work on foreign policy later.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.
Trump has said the deal is on the table and Zelinsky is welcome back to sign it. Balls in Zelinsky's court.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Zelinsky did a bait & switch. He let his team negotiate a deal with America. He agreed to come to America to sign the deal. And then he showed up and shat all over the deal. It's almost like he let the whole thing go forward so he could have a chance to poke Trump in the eye in front of the whole world. Childish.

Trump throws haymakers in public, says & does hitherto unpresidential things with out the slightest blush. but he's never done anything like what Zelinsky did.

To the extent these dynamics force Europe to gain more independence from America on defense issues......fantastic. Finally. They are spending money to help defend themselves rather than living off of the American taxpayer.

---

There are reports this morning that Trump changed the deal before Zelensky arrived and removed security guarantees. We'll see if that is proven accurate. If so, Zelensky's conduct, while still a major unforced error, at least makes more sense. Absent that, it appears he just lost his composure at the worst possible time.

---

if true, he should not have stepped in front of the cameras……

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.
That's because you apparently have not noticed the fissure in the west which has been apparent and growing for quite a while. Go watch Vance's speech in Munich. It was a remarkable moment in history - the American populist right rising to the defense of classical liberalism which the Western Left has categorically rejected. Historians will talk about that speech centuries from now.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky.
You are projecting here. Trump did nothing to stop him, and given what we know about Trump he most certainly would not have hesitated to do so had he been so inclined. Clear implication is that both Trump and Vance (and Rubio as well) are exasperated with Zelinsky's intransigence.

He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum.
His comments about conscription were weak. Zelinsky countered well by pointing out Vance had never been to Ukraine (implying Vance was not well informed). Vance recognized that and moved on. Unfortunately, Zelinsky just kept on playing his worse hand. And Vance put the epee squarely in the center of Zelinsky's chest and pushed it in all the way to the hilt by calling out the disrespectfulness of what Zelinsky had done - using a White House presser to reopen concluded negotiations and badger his hosts. It was disrespectful to the Trump Admin. It was disrespectful to America. It was disrespectful to his own team, who clearly had no idea he was going to do that. If you aren't going to sign the deal, don't come.

The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin.
Oh stop it with the neverTrump nonsesnse. Zelinsky showed the world today why Trump is saying what he's saying - it's Zelinsky that is the obstacle to peace at this moment, completely unreasonable, thinking HE is going to drive a wedge in Nato and leverage it to force concessions out of Trump. It's megalomaniacal.

I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all.
LOL he screwed himself. Coming to Washington DC to sign an agreement and then using the press conference to reopen the negotiations is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in foreign policy. Who in their right mind would allow such a process to unfold then act like that? (apparently not realizing the man he's dealing with is not going to be bullied into anything.....)

You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that.
There's only two ways to stop a war if you're unwilling to negotiate - achieve victory or defeat. I am quite confident we could win this one in 12-24 months. The equations are horrible for Russia, considerably worse than for Ukraine (as long as they have outside help). Ukraine is willing to spend the blood to do that. But are the American people willing to spend the money? Nope. Biden should have known that. Free societies don't like wars unless they are won quickly.....tiring quickly of quagmires (which attrition warfare looks like to the casual observer). And while it is frustrating to have watched Biden fritter away goodwill while pursuing an unwise policy (incredibly cautious escalation management), we have to recognize the moment has passed. Political support is eroding away. Trump''s mines for munitions deal was an enormous achievement - Russia SAID it invaded to stop growth of Nato, but now it has Sweden and Finland in the alliance and massive US direct investments right along the Russian border. That's not Nato, but it's the next best thing (for Ukraine).

All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.
You're misreading the situation. Trump knows that. He also knows he is operating on a $2T budget deficit amid macroeconomy flirting with stagflation. It's an existential crisis for his presidency (and not terribly far from that for the country). He MUST slash spending. And $100b/yr in aid to Ukraine is a big enough number to be a priority. So you seek a peace to lock in your gains (Russia stymied), fix the domestic problems, and come back to work on foreign policy later.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.
Trump has said the deal is on the table and Zelinsky is welcome back to sign it. Balls in Zelinsky's court.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Zelinsky did a bait & switch. He let his team negotiate a deal with America. He agreed to come to America to sign the deal. And then he showed up and shat all over the deal. It's almost like he let the whole thing go forward so he could have a chance to poke Trump in the eye in front of the whole world. Childish.

Trump throws haymakers in public, says & does hitherto unpresidential things with out the slightest blush. but he's never done anything like what Zelinsky did.

To the extent these dynamics force Europe to gain more independence from America on defense issues......fantastic. Finally. They are spending money to help defend themselves rather than living off of the American taxpayer.

---

Some amazing flip flopping in there, and you've certainly adjusted to fall in line with your guy. But let's be honest, what was actually in the deal that wasn't one sided for the U.S.? Was there an agreed upon framework for Russia to stop fighting? No. Were there any agreements from Russia to stop fighting/ceasefire? No. What actual peace was part of this deal? It was a political check box for the Trump admin to get payback for aid provided. And it wasn't even certain because it was just a fund that we split revenue with them. Furthermore, what would Russia be deterred by this when our involvement is a hands off new investment fund, not even participation in existing enterprises which could possibly be threatened by further encroachment.

I have no issue with trying to claw back expenditures through partnerships, but let's not pretend this is any type of peace deal.