little kids in here thinking the US asked nicely for conscripts. If you only took the people that volunteer you'd be left with the selfish losers to run society

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire with no guarantees or violative repercussions with a party already known to have violated multiple ceasefires in the past.

---

that part in bold is not true.

A trade deal with the USA is an enormous deal. Putin risks war if he messes with that.

It also provides Zelinsky with an amount of money EQUAL to what the USA has provided thus far, all available for immediate use to purchase weapons. Other European countries were willing to put troops in Ukraine before this deal came available, and European troop presence IN Ukraine (without Article 5 umbrella) was a part of the peace negotiations.

Trump's proposal was the absolute best one could hope for given circumstances (which include a decision not to dump in more money directly and win it on the battlefield).

---

You clearly don't know what this agreement was. It was an investment fund for new projects in Ukraine. That's it.

ron.reagan said:

---

little kids in here thinking the US asked nicely for conscripts. If you only took the people that volunteer you'd be left with the selfish losers to run society

---

Most all their volunteers are dead. Pay attention

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire with no guarantees or violative repercussions with a party already known to have violated multiple ceasefires in the past.

---

"Just so we're clear", you should try an honest discussion.

The way you describe it is like saying you are giving the mortgage company $850000, a company which you've already given $185000 to in exchange for a place to shelter when it rains.

Peace is a bit more than a ceasefire just like a large home is a bit more than shelter from the rain.

Giving up land and sovereignty is a bit redundant. If you don't have the land then why would you be sovereign over that land. That's going down the path of a Harris word-salad. Using more words don't help your point.

Getting past your poor description, what is their alternative?

You think it's a rotten deal for Ukraine? Fine. But rotten deals are similar to rotten eggs; anyone can smell one but not everyone can lay a fresh one. Squeeze one out rooster. Let's hear your better alternative.

(points to me for not calling you a cock)

---

This is more like a playground where a bully is beating up a weaker kid and taking his lunch money. A teacher shows up and says to the victim give me some of your lunch money first, then I'll see if I can get him to stop hitting you.

Ukraine is conscripting it's citizens abroad. They are pretty much out of volunteers until new ones come of age

https://theloop.ecpr.eu/ukraine-is-conscripting-its-citizens-abroad-is-that-strictly-legal/

From November

https://www.npr.org/2024/11/03/nx-s1-5173779/ukraine-plans-to-conscript-over-160-000-more-men-in-the-war

ATL Bear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire

---

Let's run though this again for you ATL

1. That land is full of ethnic Russians who don't want to be part of Ukraine. And the government in Kyiv can not retake those areas by force….they have tried and failed for a decade (2014 to now)

2. Ukraine is not being asked to give up its sovereignty. It is and will remain sovereign and on a path to join the EU (sans the ethnic russian areas)

3. You seem to be against the mineral deal. How else are the American people supposed to be repaid for the 200+ billion we have given Ukraine?

You want Ukraine to never pay us back?

BREAKING:

Macron opens up to Friedrich Metz's idea on France creating a nuclear weapons umbrella for Europe.

Speaking to Portuguese press, Macron stated that "if our colleagues want to move towards greater autonomy and deterrent capabilities, then we will have to open this deep… pic.twitter.com/fAm0HfsgY6

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 1, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

BREAKING:

Macron opens up to Friedrich Metz's idea on France creating a nuclear weapons umbrella for Europe.

Speaking to Portuguese press, Macron stated that "if our colleagues want to move towards greater autonomy and deterrent capabilities, then we will have to open this deep… pic.twitter.com/fAm0HfsgY6

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 1, 2025

---

Macron keeps floating a European army

(Under the de-facto command of France and its nukes)

Gotta give it to the clever Frog….that would be great for France

But they have been pushing that idea since the 1950s with Charles de Gaulle

And the rest of the Europeans would rather just sit back and let America pay to defend them….plus they don't really want to be under the thump of the French

Redbrickbear said:

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boognish_bear said:

---

BREAKING:

Macron opens up to Friedrich Metz's idea on France creating a nuclear weapons umbrella for Europe.

Speaking to Portuguese press, Macron stated that "if our colleagues want to move towards greater autonomy and deterrent capabilities, then we will have to open this deep… pic.twitter.com/fAm0HfsgY6

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 1, 2025

---

Macron keeps floating a European army

(Under the de-facto command of France and its nukes)

Gotta give it to the clever Frog….that would be great for France

But they have been pushing that idea since the 1950s with Charles de Gaulle

And the rest of the Europeans would rather just sit back and let America pay to defend them….plus they don't really want to be under the thump of the French

---

France has not been a power in a loooong time. Goes all the way back to the defeat of Napoleon Bonaparte at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815, marking the end of the First French Empire. This time they are begging other countries to let them lead, not actually doing the leading

Assassin said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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boognish_bear said:

---

BREAKING:

Macron opens up to Friedrich Metz's idea on France creating a nuclear weapons umbrella for Europe.

Speaking to Portuguese press, Macron stated that "if our colleagues want to move towards greater autonomy and deterrent capabilities, then we will have to open this deep… pic.twitter.com/fAm0HfsgY6

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 1, 2025

---

Macron keeps floating a European army

(Under the de-facto command of France and its nukes)

Gotta give it to the clever Frog….that would be great for France

But they have been pushing that idea since the 1950s with Charles de Gaulle

And the rest of the Europeans would rather just sit back and let America pay to defend them….plus they don't really want to be under the thump of the French

---

France has not been a power in a loooong time. Goes all the way back to the defeat of Napoleon Bonaparte at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815, marking the end of the First French Empire. This time they are begging other countries to let them lead, not actually doing the leading

---

They still harbor that old desire to be the big power player in Europe

They not so secretly steam about the USA being that actor

"Charles de Gaulle burnished his own delusions of strategic autonomy in the 1960s. When the general phoned Lyndon Johnson, requesting that he remove 🇺🇸troops from🇫🇷soil, the🇺🇸president is said to have replied: 'Does that include those buried in it?'"https://t.co/pK7DlILSwm

— Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff (@KleineBrockhoff) April 16, 2023

The_barBEARian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

---

The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

---

Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

---

Good post Florida.

You and Whiterock have been very pro-Ukraine and right now both of you have your head in your hands like the Ukranian ambassador.... that should be very telling to all the other posters on your side of this

---

I am not pro-Ukraine. I am pro not allowing invasions. Putin is wrong here. Well, that does not relieve Zelinsky of letting that spin out of control. He needed that meeting, it was one of those times you grit your teeth and take it.

Now, Trump and Vance acted like children. But, they were in a position to get away with it. I was not happy to see our leadership do this during a press conference. But, Trump is not an actor. He is a reality tv personality, he like creating trainwrecks. Not sure this is sustainable. I fear that China will benefit.

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

---

The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

---

Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

---

Good post Florida.

You and Whiterock have been very pro-Ukraine and right now both of you have your head in your hands like the Ukranian ambassador.... that should be very telling to all the other posters on your side of this

---

I am not pro-Ukraine. I am pro not allowing invasions. Putin is wrong here. Well, that does not relieve Zelinsky of letting that spin out of control. He needed that meeting, it was one of those times you grit your teeth and take it..

---

Being floated around that he was advised to act that way and reject the deal

UKRAINE: Obama’s team including Anthony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, and Alexander Vindman advised Zelensky to reject Trump’s deal in violation of the Logan Act.

h/t @MatthewNichol5 pic.twitter.com/7hdL4lYzvh

— @amuse (@amuse) March 1, 2025

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

---

The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

---

Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

---

Good post Florida.

You and Whiterock have been very pro-Ukraine and right now both of you have your head in your hands like the Ukranian ambassador.... that should be very telling to all the other posters on your side of this

---

I am not pro-Ukraine. I am pro not allowing invasions. Putin is wrong here. Well, that does not relieve Zelinsky of letting that spin out of control. He needed that meeting, it was one of those times you grit your teeth and take it.

Now, Trump and Vance acted like children. But, they were in a position to get away with it. I was not happy to see our leadership do this during a press conference. But, Trump is not an actor. He is a reality tv personality, he like creating trainwrecks. Not sure this is sustainable. I fear that China will benefit.

---

I think this played out exactly like Trump wanted. He needed to expose Zelenskyy as a liar. Three times the mineral deal was supposed to be signed. Zelenskyy lied about it each time, asking for more than the deal. And Trump is indeed, the Master of the Deal.

Trump and Vance demonstrated how poor they are at diplomacy in front of of the press. The treatment of Zelensky was horrible.

Guy Noir said:

---

Trump and Vance demonstrated how poor they are at diplomacy in front of of the press. The treatment of Zelensky was horrible.

---

I believe you are right. That conversation needed to occur behind closed doors. Trump and Vance came off as petty.

If I were Zelensky, I would be reaching out to China today.

ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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historian said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Zelensky needs to show some damn respect. We've gifted him billions of dollars.

Trump to Zelensky: "Your country is in big trouble. No, no, you've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. You're not winning this." pic.twitter.com/R6Ibmxqe2m

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) February 28, 2025

---

lmao, no we didn't gift him anything according to Trump

---

The last administration did. We gotta get that money back, he's making threats.

American strength on display, especially when Zelensky tries making a veiled threat. Our country is putting up with this anymore!

pic.twitter.com/0sqoPiSWwe

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) February 28, 2025

I've told yall this several times, but both Russia and Ukraine are corrupt. Ukraine are not Americans, Europeans nor westerners.

---

Just to be clear, you don't think America is corrupt?

---

Biden ("the big guy"), the rest of the Dems, and most of the RINO's proved there is plenty of corruption in America. I'm not saying true republicans are pure as the driven snow. They are as human as everyone else. But mafia levels of corruption like we saw under Clinton, Obama, & especially Biden are the realm of so-called "Democrats". They are fascists.

The list of scandals and cover-ups by the Dems seems to be endless just in the past few years. Yet it has been going on for decades.

---

It's a good thing the founding fathers weren't corrupt. The slave farms had solid core values

---

Nice, trying to attack the Founding Fathers

You are a real Patriot

For the record

[The exact number of signers who owned slaves is disputed, but most estimates but the number at 17 of the 55 delegates]

So about 30%

So 70% of the Founding Father never owned a slave.

And the ones that did inherited a slave economy in existence long before they were born (one that long existed in West Africa)

---

I'm sorry that the literal truth hurts your feelings

---

Not at all

But unlike you I like to be accurate and state the real history

Nor to I attack great men of the past and call them corrupt

---

Are you saying you can't be a great man if you owned slaves?

---

70% of the Founders didn't own a single slave you historical illiterate

And yes….George Washington and Thomas Jefferson remain great men.

---

I'm not sure why you have to point out Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. Sounds like an attack on great men

---

No,

But your dumb comments like this are..

[ron.reagan said:
It's a good thing the founding fathers weren't corrupt. The slave farms had solid core values]

You didn't even know that 70% of them never own a slave…lol what an idiot!

---

I'm actually surprised 30% did. I know that it wasn't widely prevalent.

---

People who know American history are not surprised that apx 30% of the Founding Fathers owned slaves. It was a central part of the economy of the economy and culture in the south at the time.

Far more important is the fact that the movement to end slavery was starting and that eventually America would end the evil institution then grant equal rights to the former slaves.

Thanks gif providing. I had not seen the whole thing. Now I want to.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

---

The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

---

Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

---

Good post Florida.

You and Whiterock have been very pro-Ukraine and right now both of you have your head in your hands like the Ukranian ambassador.... that should be very telling to all the other posters on your side of this

---

I am not pro-Ukraine. I am pro not allowing invasions. Putin is wrong here. Well, that does not relieve Zelinsky of letting that spin out of control. He needed that meeting, it was one of those times you grit your teeth and take it..

---

Being floated around that he was advised to act that way and reject the deal

UKRAINE: Obama’s team including Anthony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, and Alexander Vindman advised Zelensky to reject Trump’s deal in violation of the Logan Act.

h/t @MatthewNichol5 pic.twitter.com/7hdL4lYzvh

— @amuse (@amuse) March 1, 2025

---

If proven true, that's a real problem, possibly criminal.

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

---

The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

---

Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

---

Good post Florida.

You and Whiterock have been very pro-Ukraine and right now both of you have your head in your hands like the Ukranian ambassador.... that should be very telling to all the other posters on your side of this

---

I am not pro-Ukraine. I am pro not allowing invasions. Putin is wrong here. Well, that does not relieve Zelinsky of letting that spin out of control. He needed that meeting, it was one of those times you grit your teeth and take it..

---

Being floated around that he was advised to act that way and reject the deal

UKRAINE: Obama’s team including Anthony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, and Alexander Vindman advised Zelensky to reject Trump’s deal in violation of the Logan Act.

h/t @MatthewNichol5 pic.twitter.com/7hdL4lYzvh

— @amuse (@amuse) March 1, 2025

---

If proven true, that's a real problem, possibly criminal.

---

This is the main problem with the post-truth online information ecosystem in a nutshell.

A MAGA user claimed last night that Democratic politicians "Blinken, Rice Nuland and Vindman" had a conference call with Zelensky on his flight to Washington and advised him to "stand… pic.twitter.com/UOsQpHQnge

— Shayan Sardarizadeh (@Shayan86) March 1, 2025

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire

---

Let's run though this again for you ATL

1. That land is full of ethnic Russians who don't want to be part of Ukraine. And the government in Kyiv can not retake those areas by force….they have tried and failed for a decade (2014 to now)

2. Ukraine is not being asked to give up its sovereignty. It is and will remain sovereign and on a path to join the EU (sans the ethnic russian areas)

3. You seem to be against the mineral deal. How else are the American people supposed to be repaid for the 200+ billion we have given Ukraine?

You want Ukraine to never pay us back?

---

1. You keep piping this in, which is completely irrelevant. At worst, they wanted independence, not to be Russia.

2. Being withheld from joining defense alliances, dictating your security parameters, and even military size is hardly keeping your sovereignty.

3. I'm fine with the mineral deal. I'm against calling it some sort of peace or security deal.

KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

historian said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky needs to show some damn respect. We've gifted him billions of dollars.

Trump to Zelensky: "Your country is in big trouble. No, no, you've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. You're not winning this." pic.twitter.com/R6Ibmxqe2m

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) February 28, 2025

---

lmao, no we didn't gift him anything according to Trump

---

The last administration did. We gotta get that money back, he's making threats.

American strength on display, especially when Zelensky tries making a veiled threat. Our country is putting up with this anymore!

pic.twitter.com/0sqoPiSWwe

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) February 28, 2025

I've told yall this several times, but both Russia and Ukraine are corrupt. Ukraine are not Americans, Europeans nor westerners.

---

Just to be clear, you don't think America is corrupt?

---

Biden ("the big guy"), the rest of the Dems, and most of the RINO's proved there is plenty of corruption in America. I'm not saying true republicans are pure as the driven snow. They are as human as everyone else. But mafia levels of corruption like we saw under Clinton, Obama, & especially Biden are the realm of so-called "Democrats". They are fascists.

The list of scandals and cover-ups by the Dems seems to be endless just in the past few years. Yet it has been going on for decades.

---

It's a good thing the founding fathers weren't corrupt. The slave farms had solid core values

---

Nice, trying to attack the Founding Fathers

You are a real Patriot

For the record

[The exact number of signers who owned slaves is disputed, but most estimates but the number at 17 of the 55 delegates]

So about 30%

So 70% of the Founding Father never owned a slave.

And the ones that did inherited a slave economy in existence long before they were born (one that long existed in West Africa)

---

I'm sorry that the literal truth hurts your feelings

---

Not at all

But unlike you I like to be accurate and state the real history

Nor to I attack great men of the past and call them corrupt

---

Are you saying you can't be a great man if you owned slaves?

---

And yes….George Washington and Thomas Jefferson remain great men…slaves or no slaves

---

Washington was a great man; with or without slaves.

Jefferson was a physical coward who raped his slaves and wouldn't even grant his own slave offspring their freedom.

A mediocre president at best.

---

Correct on Washington. Harsh with Jefferson. The evidence on Jefferson and Sally Hemings is still inconclusive, although very possible. He still accomplished great things including writing the Declaration of Independence & negotiating the Louisiana Purchase from Napoleon. He was a mediocre president, that is true. But he was a far more complicated man for simplistic conclusions. A paradox in some ways.

KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

historian said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Zelensky needs to show some damn respect. We've gifted him billions of dollars.

Trump to Zelensky: "Your country is in big trouble. No, no, you've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. You're not winning this." pic.twitter.com/R6Ibmxqe2m

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) February 28, 2025

---

lmao, no we didn't gift him anything according to Trump

---

The last administration did. We gotta get that money back, he's making threats.

American strength on display, especially when Zelensky tries making a veiled threat. Our country is putting up with this anymore!

pic.twitter.com/0sqoPiSWwe

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) February 28, 2025

I've told yall this several times, but both Russia and Ukraine are corrupt. Ukraine are not Americans, Europeans nor westerners.

---

Just to be clear, you don't think America is corrupt?

---

Biden ("the big guy"), the rest of the Dems, and most of the RINO's proved there is plenty of corruption in America. I'm not saying true republicans are pure as the driven snow. They are as human as everyone else. But mafia levels of corruption like we saw under Clinton, Obama, & especially Biden are the realm of so-called "Democrats". They are fascists.

The list of scandals and cover-ups by the Dems seems to be endless just in the past few years. Yet it has been going on for decades.

---

It's a good thing the founding fathers weren't corrupt. The slave farms had solid core values

---

Nice, trying to attack the Founding Fathers

You are a real Patriot

For the record

[The exact number of signers who owned slaves is disputed, but most estimates but the number at 17 of the 55 delegates]

So about 30%

So 70% of the Founding Father never owned a slave.

And the ones that did inherited a slave economy in existence long before they were born (one that long existed in West Africa)

---

I'm sorry that the literal truth hurts your feelings

---

Not at all

But unlike you I like to be accurate and state the real history

Nor to I attack great men of the past and call them corrupt

---

Are you saying you can't be a great man if you owned slaves?

---

And yes….George Washington and Thomas Jefferson remain great men…slaves or no slaves

---

Jefferson was….

A mediocre president at best.

---

I disagree

---

Produced by our diplomats in France and Napolean's need for cash.

---

True. And Jefferson used Hamilton's economic mechanisms, which he had criticized, to complete the deal. He made hard choices for the good of the country. That's leadership.

KaiBear said:

---

You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

---

Not true. The whole idea of it began with propaganda from the publisher of an opposition newspaper. It's like saying CNN reporting is reliable!

The DNA evidence is questionable, as noted above. There isn't a whole lot of evidence at all.

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

---

What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

---

LOL

Have read many accounts of his life.

Even his white children knew about his slave relations.

The dude was born to money and lived the life of a spoiled brat.

Easily the most overrated president in US history.

---

Most overrated presidents, in no particular order:

Woodrow Wilson
Barack Hussein Obama
Bill Clinton
FDR (he deserves some of the accolades he gets, not all)
LBJ

FLBear5630 said:

---

Guy Noir said:

---

Trump and Vance demonstrated how poor they are at diplomacy in front of of the press. The treatment of Zelensky was horrible.

---

If I were Zelensky, I would be reaching out to China today.

---

lol I am sure reaching out to the Red Dragon in Beijing will work out great

Excellent summary.

This incident illustrates why we should have minimal dealings with dictators.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025

---

The US should not be making foreign policy based on how Z acted today. We should have never asked a question we didn't know the answer to. We should have never explored new territory in front of the cameras. It shows a huge lack of wisdom and lack of foresight. The US has a huge interest in that region and Z is a small pawn. Putting him the spotlight like, acting like he influenced our policy, was a huge set back for our country. A total disgrace

---

Sorry, but this was Zelenski's fault. He is at the WH trying to get aid. He had it, Trump said that military aid will continue during the negotiations. I am not a fan of Zelenski, Trump or Vance, but Zelenski f-ed up. He is done. The proper response is to do whatever we can to get a fair peace agreement. He didn't have to agree to anything, just not do what he did. The US is the only thing keeping Ukraine alive. Stupid move.

---

Good post Florida.

You and Whiterock have been very pro-Ukraine and right now both of you have your head in your hands like the Ukranian ambassador.... that should be very telling to all the other posters on your side of this

---

I am not pro-Ukraine. I am pro not allowing invasions. Putin is wrong here. Well, that does not relieve Zelinsky of letting that spin out of control. He needed that meeting, it was one of those times you grit your teeth and take it..

---

Being floated around that he was advised to act that way and reject the deal

UKRAINE: Obama’s team including Anthony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, Susan Rice, and Alexander Vindman advised Zelensky to reject Trump’s deal in violation of the Logan Act.

h/t @MatthewNichol5 pic.twitter.com/7hdL4lYzvh

— @amuse (@amuse) March 1, 2025

---

Absolutely no doubt that the globalist party is advising him to not cooperate with Trump. The globalist controlled Europe absolutely doesn't want Trump to look successful. So Europe has mobilized against the US in its own way, until the progressives/globalists gain control back.

And just a reminder, the oligarchs in the Ukraine sit at that same globalist table.

ATL Bear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

---

Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

---

Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

---

Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire

---

Let's run though this again for you ATL

1. That land is full of ethnic Russians who don't want to be part of Ukraine. And the government in Kyiv can not retake those areas by force….they have tried and failed for a decade (2014 to now)

2. Ukraine is not being asked to give up its sovereignty. It is and will remain sovereign and on a path to join the EU (sans the ethnic russian areas)

3. You seem to be against the mineral deal. How else are the American people supposed to be repaid for the 200+ billion we have given Ukraine?

You want Ukraine to never pay us back?

---

1. You keep piping this in, which is completely irrelevant. At worst, they wanted independence, not to be Russia.

2. Being withheld from joining defense alliances, dictating your security parameters, and even military size is hardly keeping your sovereignty.

---

1. I bring it up because you won't accept clear facts on the ground and the will of the people in those areas.

You also seem to think Kyiv should keep up a futile decades long struggle that has failed to bring those areas back under Ukrainian control….it is not going to work….period

2. Biden your boy already said NATO membership was off the table.

That was literally the position of the Liberals in DC

So now you are mad a Trump for carrying on the exact same US policy?

PS

A few years down the road geo-political circumstance might change and there could be a chance for Ukraine to join (sans the ethnic Russian areas we discussed)

But you have to get peace now to make that a possible reality later

UKRAINE: Even Biden, albeit privately, told Zelensky that Ukraine will never be part of NATO. pic.twitter.com/QRuLsldXwO

— @amuse (@amuse) February 15, 2025

🇺🇸🇺🇦 Blinken admits Ukraine won’t join NATO but suggests sending Europeans to fight and die there is acceptable. pic.twitter.com/Sxuk7mOgZh

— DD Geopolitics (@DD_Geopolitics) December 19, 2024

whiterock said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

---

Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

---

every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

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Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.
That's because you apparently have not noticed the fissure in the west which has been apparent and growing for quite a while. Go watch Vance's speech in Munich. It was a remarkable moment in history - the American populist right rising to the defense of classical liberalism which the Western Left has categorically rejected. Historians will talk about that speech centuries from now.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky.
You are projecting here. Trump did nothing to stop him, and given what we know about Trump he most certainly would not have hesitated to do so had he been so inclined. Clear implication is that both Trump and Vance (and Rubio as well) are exasperated with Zelinsky's intransigence.

He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum.
His comments about conscription were weak. Zelinsky countered well by pointing out Vance had never been to Ukraine (implying Vance was not well informed). Vance recognized that and moved on. Unfortunately, Zelinsky just kept on playing his worse hand. And Vance put the epee squarely in the center of Zelinsky's chest and pushed it in all the way to the hilt by calling out the disrespectfulness of what Zelinsky had done - using a White House presser to reopen concluded negotiations and badger his hosts. It was disrespectful to the Trump Admin. It was disrespectful to America. It was disrespectful to his own team, who clearly had no idea he was going to do that. If you aren't going to sign the deal, don't come.

The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin.
Oh stop it with the neverTrump nonsesnse. Zelinsky showed the world today why Trump is saying what he's saying - it's Zelinsky that is the obstacle to peace at this moment, completely unreasonable, thinking HE is going to drive a wedge in Nato and leverage it to force concessions out of Trump. It's megalomaniacal.

I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all.
LOL he screwed himself. Coming to Washington DC to sign an agreement and then using the press conference to reopen the negotiations is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in foreign policy. Who in their right mind would allow such a process to unfold then act like that? (apparently not realizing the man he's dealing with is not going to be bullied into anything.....)

You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that.
There's only two ways to stop a war if you're unwilling to negotiate - achieve victory or defeat. I am quite confident we could win this one in 12-24 months. The equations are horrible for Russia, considerably worse than for Ukraine (as long as they have outside help). Ukraine is willing to spend the blood to do that. But are the American people willing to spend the money? Nope. Biden should have known that. Free societies don't like wars unless they are won quickly.....tiring quickly of quagmires (which attrition warfare looks like to the casual observer). And while it is frustrating to have watched Biden fritter away goodwill while pursuing an unwise policy (incredibly cautious escalation management), we have to recognize the moment has passed. Political support is eroding away. Trump''s mines for munitions deal was an enormous achievement - Russia SAID it invaded to stop growth of Nato, but now it has Sweden and Finland in the alliance and massive US direct investments right along the Russian border. That's not Nato, but it's the next best thing (for Ukraine).

All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.
You're misreading the situation. Trump knows that. He also knows he is operating on a $2T budget deficit amid macroeconomy flirting with stagflation. It's an existential crisis for his presidency (and not terribly far from that for the country). He MUST slash spending. And $100b/yr in aid to Ukraine is a big enough number to be a priority. So you seek a peace to lock in your gains (Russia stymied), fix the domestic problems, and come back to work on foreign policy later.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.
Trump has said the deal is on the table and Zelinsky is welcome back to sign it. Balls in Zelinsky's court.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

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Zelinsky did a bait & switch. He let his team negotiate a deal with America. He agreed to come to America to sign the deal. And then he showed up and shat all over the deal. It's almost like he let the whole thing go forward so he could have a chance to poke Trump in the eye in front of the whole world. Childish.

Trump throws haymakers in public, says & does hitherto unpresidential things with out the slightest blush. but he's never done anything like what Zelinsky did.

To the extent these dynamics force Europe to gain more independence from America on defense issues......fantastic. Finally. They are spending money to help defend themselves rather than living off of the American taxpayer.

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Fantastic post whiterock!

If I could give you more than one blue star, I would!

Watching you slap around ATL Bear is my new guilty pleasure!

historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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You dreaming bro.

The evidence of his offspring produced by his rapes is overwhelming.

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What's the evidence?

DNA connection to the Jefferson family?

Again read the links….very possible it was a male relative and not TJ himself

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LOL

Have read many accounts of his life.

Even his white children knew about his slave relations.

The dude was born to money and lived the life of a spoiled brat.

Easily the most overrated president in US history.

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Most overrated presidents, in no particular order:

Woodrow Wilson
Barack Hussein Obama
Bill Clinton
FDR (he deserves some of the accolades he gets, not all)
LBJ

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Woodrow Wilson
Obama
Jefferson
Lincoln
FDR

ATL Bear said:

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Talking points in alignment.

The insolent pig finally got a proper slap down in the Oval Office. And @realDonaldTrump is right: The Kiev regime is "gambling with WWIII."

— Dmitry Medvedev (@MedvedevRussiaE) February 28, 2025

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Thankfully the adults in the room, Trump & Putin, won't let it go that far. It's sad that Putin is more sensible but that's because of Zelensky's childish antics.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Vance ****ed that situation up and Trump went Trump as a follow on.

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Zelensky ****ed up that situation.

The American public is beginning to see what a bunch of ingrates these people are.

There are people in this country that could really use every penny that gets sent to Ukraine as aid.

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every now & then, you have a moment of clarity (that moment in bold), even if it is for the wrong reasons.

Lots & lots of people in both countries were involved in drafting that agreement. Lots & lots of people were involved in scheduling Zelinsky's trip to USA. Lots & lots of people got the WH ready to host the meeting, organize the press, to ballyhoo the signing of the agreement, etc..... It was all tied up in a package. All the two heads of state had to do was put a couple of bows on it. BOTH sides knew that.

And then Zelinsky came in and started negotiating in front of the press, as if he was going to get the American people to flood the phone lines to demand that Trump accede to Ukrainian demands. It was a stunning, sophomoric misread of the moment. Astounding. Note the Ukraine Ambassador's head in her hands as it was all unfolding. She'd done her job. And then Zelinsky showed up thinking his force of personality could transform the deal into more aid for "as long as it takes." And Trump & Vance handed Zelinsky great bit pieces of his own anatomy. I've been around a bit. Seen a demarche delivered to a head of state which threatened to "destroy your country" and proceeded to go on with a list of examples of how the destruction would be delivered. So this one was not particularly rough & tumble. Diplomacy can be a lot more blunt that Trump was today, trust me. But it was an enormous blunder by Zelinsky, from which he has no real face-saving extrication.

I am convinced that Zelinsky has a bad case of neverTrumper going on. He's got Euro heads of state complaining about Trump muscling them around to do what they've promised to do but never had (Nato constributions), and changing tactics in the Ukraine War, etc...... And he's had 4 years of Democrats filling his head with nonsense about how good he is and how bad Trump is. And the international media filling his head with nonsense. He's clearly isolated and out of touch with reality, at least to the extent that he does not understand how the landscape in America has changed. It might be in America's best interest to up the aid & remove the restrictions on how that aid is used, (and it is) but the policy opponents are winning the argument in the court of public opinion. That constrains options. What you do in situations like that is lock in your position (like by signing the deal your team negotiated for you) and come back later to get more. Instead, he wanted to win an argument on camera with a guy he clearly has misunderestimated.

Trump's de facto lend-lease (mines for munitions) is not a bad deal. It's the next best thing to a formal Nato commitment (which itself is a bad idea). but Zelinsky can't read a room. And now he's had his ass handed to him. On international TV.

If he's smart, he'll come back & sign.
And if I know Trump like I think I do, the price will go up. Zelinsky will either give up more, or get less for what he did. Would be magnanimous for Trump to leave the current deal on the table.

I can't say this is the most spectacular blunder in diplomatic history, because most of them happen behind closed doors......but Zelinsky really, really diminished himself today. If he wasn't gonna sign the agreement, he should not have come. He picked the no-win fight of all no-win fights.

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Your twists of logic and positions befuddle me. If you haven't, check the Russian and Chinese channels. The fissure building in the West is being simultaneously met with further Russo Sino collaboration. Shoigu was just in Beijing.

You know damn well Vance went rogue after Zelensky. He (Vance) was touting points you've spent ad nauseum time making arguments against on this very forum. The administration has gone pro-Putin in a bizarre way. Yes, pro Putin. I'll admit Zelensky didn't help himself by losing his cool, especially with a volatile Trump, but this was a terrible moment for all. You know Putin can't be trusted, started this war (including back in 2014 which Zelensky was addressing), needs to have any expansionist plans thwarted, yet this administration is doing everything opposite of that. All over a deal that at best might have produced fruits well after Trump is out of office.

Perhaps after a cooling off period they can reconcile and move forward, but I fear Trump will dig in for ego reasons as much as anything, and Europe becomes the arbiter and beneficiary of the arrangement, or continues the war. All in time for a trade war with our allies and adversaries.

As the saying goes, "May you live in interesting times".

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Trump will only dig in if Zelensky does not do what he should, or if Trump's playing a different angle...Like to unseat Zelensky.

Trump always works with people who disrespected him if they get on his page.

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Just so we're clear, Ukraine is being asked to give up land, sovereignty, and mineral rights for a ceasefire

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Let's run though this again for you ATL

1. That land is full of ethnic Russians who don't want to be part of Ukraine. And the government in Kyiv can not retake those areas by force….they have tried and failed for a decade (2014 to now)

2. Ukraine is not being asked to give up its sovereignty. It is and will remain sovereign and on a path to join the EU (sans the ethnic russian areas)

3. You seem to be against the mineral deal. How else are the American people supposed to be repaid for the 200+ billion we have given Ukraine?

You want Ukraine to never pay us back?

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1. You keep piping this in, which is completely irrelevant. At worst, they wanted independence, not to be Russia.

2. Being withheld from joining defense alliances, dictating your security parameters, and even military size is hardly keeping your sovereignty.

3. I'm fine with the mineral deal. I'm against calling it some sort of peace or security deal.

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Re #2, Sovereignty? Ukraine, like most countries in the world, are in a position where choosing to arm themselves with nukes is not a possibility. There are more powerful countries that won't allow it. Are those countries that are being prevented from getting nukes still sovereign? Is it wrong for the powerful countries to not allow them to get nukes? Follow the logical conclusion further down, Degrees of sovereignty can be determined by your place in the world. We don't have to like it, but it's reality.

Redbrickbear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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BREAKING:

Macron opens up to Friedrich Metz's idea on France creating a nuclear weapons umbrella for Europe.

Speaking to Portuguese press, Macron stated that "if our colleagues want to move towards greater autonomy and deterrent capabilities, then we will have to open this deep… pic.twitter.com/fAm0HfsgY6

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 1, 2025

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Macron keeps floating a European army

(Under the de-facto command of France and its nukes)

Gotta give it to the clever Frog….that would be great for France

But they have been pushing that idea since the 1950s with Charles de Gaulle

And the rest of the Europeans would rather just sit back and let America pay to defend them….plus they don't really want to be under the thump of the French

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Are we sure is last name isn't really Bonaparte?

Assassin said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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BREAKING:

Macron opens up to Friedrich Metz's idea on France creating a nuclear weapons umbrella for Europe.

Speaking to Portuguese press, Macron stated that "if our colleagues want to move towards greater autonomy and deterrent capabilities, then we will have to open this deep… pic.twitter.com/fAm0HfsgY6

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 1, 2025

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Macron keeps floating a European army

(Under the de-facto command of France and its nukes)

Gotta give it to the clever Frog….that would be great for France

But they have been pushing that idea since the 1950s with Charles de Gaulle

And the rest of the Europeans would rather just sit back and let America pay to defend them….plus they don't really want to be under the thump of the French

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France has not been a power in a loooong time. Goes all the way back to the defeat of Napoleon Bonaparte at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815, marking the end of the First French Empire. This time they are begging other countries to let them lead, not actually doing the leading

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True. But if they con enough countries into going along with their scheme, the results will be the same. That's a very big if.