trey3216 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Assassin said:

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sombear said:

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Assassin said:

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Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

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Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

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Risking nuclear conflagration and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in a pointless slaughter for the enrichment of Western oligarchs is the epitome of evil. It may be the worst crime against humanity that I've seen in my lifetime. Kudos to Trump for saying enough is enough.

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Not the invasion, but the efforts to resist it and the weapons given to assist are the "worst crime against humanity". Unbelievable.

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I could say the same about your defense of pedophilia.

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What the **** are you talking about you Jew hating sociopath?

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"Jew hating sociopath"... wow... if only you or the idiots who liked your post could get this worked up towards the actual JEWISH criminals abusing children instead of attacking the people who want them to face justice.

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We sensible folks are very concerned about the pedophilia and sex trafficking. You are concerned about their Jewishness and the pedophilia just gives you a license to go after Jews. That's how sick of an individual you are. BTW, Clinton is a Baptist and Prince Andrew is an Anglican, but I'm sure their Protestantism is of no concern to you.

---

Yes... you are very sensible.

Israel running a state sponsored pedophile ring via Jeffrey Epstein and sexually abusing young American girls isnt all that shocking when you realize Israel consistently protects Jewish pedophiles from international justice:

[url=https://www.timesofisrael.com/diaspora-pedophiles-increasingly-use-israel-as-a-haven-activists-charge/][/url]
Tens of thousands of pedophiles operate in Israel every year


I dont know if there is a connection between Jewishness and pedophilia or its just that the Jewish religion is ethno-supremacist so the rape and abuse of gentiles is accepted, but regardless there seems to be a very troubling trend of Jews protecting other Jews who have committed sex crimes from prosecution and justice.

And Epstein and his clients appear to be the Mount Everest of these cover-ups.[url=https://nypost.com/2009/10/29/inside-story-of-the-night-that-polanski-raped-a-child/][/url]

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In reply to that link....they've arrested something like 50 people in McLennan County....THIS YEAR....on sexual assault/misconduct/pedophelia charges. So, I would venture to say there are hundreds of thousands in the US, if not more, operating in a given year. Sick

Speaking of ethno-supremacy is absolutely hilarious coming out of your mouth...

---

This is a particularly feeble non-sequitur.

Are people protecting pedophiles in McLennan County?

Is the DA refusing to prosecute?

Top contributors in aid for Ukraine/person:

Denmark: 1850€/person
Norway: 1520€/person
Netherlands: 744€/person
Finland: 700€/person
Sweden: 610€/person

Then there's USA: 196€/person

Mah tax money! 😭

— Tomi 🇺🇦🇫🇮🇪🇺 (@TallbarFIN) March 4, 2025

The typical response from our "allies" to receiving American tax payer money...

best, new podcast.... of all time!!!!!!

ATL Bear said:

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Assassin said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Assassin said:

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sombear said:

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Assassin said:

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sombear said:

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Assassin said:

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sombear said:

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Assassin said:

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Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

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They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

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The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

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Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

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I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

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Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

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Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Assassin said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Assassin said:

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sombear said:

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Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

That violence was there long before

Its a classic case of post 1960s social science to try and blame the Westerners for the violence and discrimination already present in the global south.

The Hutu and Tutsi has already existed as distinct groups long before the Belgians showed up

[The Twa were traditionally forest dwelling people, and were the original inhabitants of Rwanda. They already a marginalized group within Rwandan society.

Until 1895 an independent Tutsi monarchy ruled the nation, implementing increasingly anti-Hutu policies. In 1895 the country became a German province, and after the end of the World War One Belgium took control of Rwanda under a League of Nations mandate. The Belgians initially relied on the traditional hierarchy and social structures including leaving the Tutsi King, who was recognized by both Hutus and Tutsis, to run the country

[Rwabugiri conquered several smaller states, expanded the kingdom west and north, and initiated administrative reforms; these included uhuhake, in which Tutsi patrons ceded cattle, and therefore privileged status, to Hutu or Tutsi clients in exchange for economic and personal service, and uburetwa, a corvee system in which Hutu were forced to work for Tutsi chiefs]

[The Belgians viewed the Tutsi minority as superior, and favored Tutsi for leadership positions]

The Belgians literally riled on group differences and policies of who would be in leadership that existed long before they were there

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Didn't Putin poison the Ukrainian front runner in that 2010 free and open election? Or was that 2004? Putin has always been about free elections.

---

He was in 2004 he tried to kill Yushchenko

[Yushchenko became seriously ill in early September 2004. He was flown to Vienna's Rudolfinerhaus clinic for treatment and diagnosed with acute pancreatitis, accompanied by interstitial edematous abnormalities, due to a serious viral infection and chemical substances that are not normally found in food products. Yushchenko claimed that he had been poisoned by government agents. After the illness, his face has shown signs of chloracne.

British toxicologist Professor John Henry of St Mary's Hospital in London declared the abnormalities in Yushchenko's face were due to chloracne, which results from dioxin poisoning. Dutch toxicologist Bram Brouwer also stated his abnormalities in appearance were the result of chloracne, and found dioxin levels in Yushchenko's blood 6,000 times above normal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

---

So maybe this game of influencing elections has been going on for a while and we beat him in 2012? The invasion is sour grapes on Putin's part?

---

Who said it has not been?

But I though your side was still arguing that the CIA and State Department had nothing to do with the coup in Kyiv in 2014?

---

Nothing? Huge range between nothing and poisoning . The typical psyops? Sure, been going on since before Caesar.

---

This is where we always get back to DC spy craft and meddling being more innocuous through groups like USAID and other NGOS.....basically bribing people with billions of dollars

Vs the brutal "we poison people" brand of Moscow thuggery

Both "Empires" were fighting for Ukraine.....this war is the result

---

Where you are wrong is in the believe that Ukraine wants to be aligned east with Russia. Maybe those Russians that were migrated there, probably because the alternative is a bullet. But, Ukraine would not be fighting like it is if you were correct, regardless of how many phone calls Nuland had. People don't fight like this unless they are truly scared of losing.

trey3216 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Didn't Putin poison the Ukrainian front runner in that 2010 free and open election? Or was that 2004? Putin has always been about free elections.

---

In 2004 he was driving around the hill country in a pick-up with Bush Jr.

I guess that was before he became Hitler.

---

…and pretty well since that time Bush has said Putin is not to be trusted.

---

I don't remember that but I do remember Bush saying this about Putin...


"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy," Bush said. "I was able to get a sense of his soul."


https://www.reddit.com/r/agedlikemilk/comments/td9q2l/bush_looked_into_putins_soul/

ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Risking nuclear conflagration and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in a pointless slaughter for the enrichment of Western oligarchs is the epitome of evil. It may be the worst crime against humanity that I've seen in my lifetime. Kudos to Trump for saying enough is enough.

---

Not the invasion, but the efforts to resist it and the weapons given to assist are the "worst crime against humanity". Unbelievable.

---

Zelensky has insisted on defending indefensible positions, in defiance of advice, and at huge cost in human life, over and over again. We have not only supported but insisted on suicidal gambits like the 2023 counter-offensive. Biden was bloodthirsty enough to try to make conscription of men 18-25 years old a condition of further aid, even though that would effectively end the Ukrainians as a people. The cynics who say we're fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian aren't kidding. It's exactly what we've tried to do, and it is a crime. Anyone who cares at all about Ukraine should want to end this war.

---

Even if I bought into your theory, it isn't even close to a crime against humanity. Why are you so supportive and forgiving of Russia's role here? I'm sincerely curious.

---

It is a crime for a military commander to act with reckless or wanton disregard for the lives of his own troops. Many here will be unprepared for the scale of the destruction that will be revealed after the war ends.

I've spent a lifetime listening to my government terrorize us with one devil after another. It amazes me that people keep buying the same recycled propaganda over and over again. Putin is just an updated version of Saddam Hussein, no doubt a bad guy in some respects, but hardly the super-villain we're led to believe.

Ultimately my reasons for wanting to avoid war have nothing to do with Putin. Our vision of Western hegemony and the "end of history" is dangerous and wrong. If we keep pushing it, we will end up at war with Russia, which likely means the end of both civilizations. Of course our neoconservative politicians don't expect that. They think Russia will fall into our hands like a ripe fruit--just like Iraq, Iran, and every other prize was supposed to do. As usual, they're wrong. They've been wrong too many times, and the stakes are too high, for them to be listened to any more.

But of course I'm not going to convince anyone of that. Americans don't do reality. We live in the greatest country in history, where the credit card will never max out, we can all live our wildest dreams, and the whole world wants to be like us (except when they don't and we have to kill a few of them). That's why Russia needs to win. If they don't draw the line, no one will.

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Didn't Putin poison the Ukrainian front runner in that 2010 free and open election? Or was that 2004? Putin has always been about free elections.

---

He was in 2004 he tried to kill Yushchenko

[Yushchenko became seriously ill in early September 2004. He was flown to Vienna's Rudolfinerhaus clinic for treatment and diagnosed with acute pancreatitis, accompanied by interstitial edematous abnormalities, due to a serious viral infection and chemical substances that are not normally found in food products. Yushchenko claimed that he had been poisoned by government agents. After the illness, his face has shown signs of chloracne.

British toxicologist Professor John Henry of St Mary's Hospital in London declared the abnormalities in Yushchenko's face were due to chloracne, which results from dioxin poisoning. Dutch toxicologist Bram Brouwer also stated his abnormalities in appearance were the result of chloracne, and found dioxin levels in Yushchenko's blood 6,000 times above normal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

---

So maybe this game of influencing elections has been going on for a while and we beat him in 2012? The invasion is sour grapes on Putin's part?

---

Who said it has not been?

But I though your side was still arguing that the CIA and State Department had nothing to do with the coup in Kyiv in 2014?

---

Nothing? Huge range between nothing and poisoning . The typical psyops? Sure, been going on since before Caesar.

---

This is where we always get back to DC spy craft and meddling being more innocuous through groups like USAID and other NGOS.....basically bribing people with billions of dollars

Vs the brutal "we poison people" brand of Moscow thuggery

Both "Empires" were fighting for Ukraine.....this war is the result

---

Where you are wrong is in the believe that Ukraine wants to be aligned east with Russia. Maybe those Russians that were migrated there, probably because the alternative is a bullet.

---

The political fault line in Ukraine from the moment of its independent was the Western and Central portions of Ukraine looking to the EU-USA and the Southern and Eastern areas looking to do business with Moscow

That was the main issue in their politics and the main reason for the split in their parties

Now of course not everyone in the East necessarily wanted to be part of Russia but they favored candidates and policies that would protect the status of the Russian language inside Ukraine and would be friendly to Moscow

The party break down was clear as day and quite striking.....there are no States in America for example that vote 93% for the GOP or 92% for the Democrats

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

no, we did not quit on them. We are trying to force them to the negotiating table, to sign a deal that's still on the table.

If Trump's actions force Europe to step up their contributions to replace ours, how is that a bad thing?

---

We quit on them. In doing so, we showed freedoms loving folks in places like Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Taiwan, Georgia, Romania, and China that we don't give a **** about them.

---

The Liberal Court there just canceled the popular election of a candidate

Are you saying we need to intervene to save the people of Romania from progressive Liberalism?

Or do we only like elections were the Liberals win?

[Thousands of people rallied in the Romanian capital, Bucharest, on January 12 to protest the December annulment of the presidential election in which right-wing, pro-Russian candidate Calin Georgescu unexpectedly won the first round.

The protest began around 2 p.m. at Bucharest's University Square and spread out to other sites....
Protests have been continuing in Romania since December 6 when the Constitutional Court canceled the election two days before the second round amid allegations of Russian interference.

Demonstrators on January 12 waved the Romanian flag and carried Christian icons as wells as banners that read "Democracy," "Freedom," and "Give us back the second round," as they demanded the court to reverse its ruling.]

https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-protests-calin-georgescu-presidential-election/33273091.html

---

Never said intervene, but I support the cause of freedom and democracy.

Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Didn't Putin poison the Ukrainian front runner in that 2010 free and open election? Or was that 2004? Putin has always been about free elections.

---

In 2004 he was driving around the hill country in a pick-up with Bush Jr.

I guess that was before he became Hitler.

---

…and pretty well since that time Bush has said Putin is not to be trusted.

---

I don't remember that but I do remember Bush saying this about Putin...


"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy," Bush said. "I was able to get a sense of his soul."


https://www.reddit.com/r/agedlikemilk/comments/td9q2l/bush_looked_into_putins_soul/

---

That was before Putin reneged on pretty much
then invaded Georgia

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Didn't Putin poison the Ukrainian front runner in that 2010 free and open election? Or was that 2004? Putin has always been about free elections.

---

In 2004 he was driving around the hill country in a pick-up with Bush Jr.

I guess that was before he became Hitler.

---

…and pretty well since that time Bush has said Putin is not to be trusted.

---

I don't remember that but I do remember Bush saying this about Putin...


"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy," Bush said. "I was able to get a sense of his soul."


https://www.reddit.com/r/agedlikemilk/comments/td9q2l/bush_looked_into_putins_soul/

---

That was before Putin reneged on pretty much
then invaded Georgia

---

Oh you don't have to convince me that George W. Bush has horrible judgement....

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

no, we did not quit on them. We are trying to force them to the negotiating table, to sign a deal that's still on the table.

If Trump's actions force Europe to step up their contributions to replace ours, how is that a bad thing?

---

We quit on them. In doing so, we showed freedoms loving folks in places like Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Taiwan, Georgia, Romania, and China that we don't give a **** about them.

---

The Liberal Court there just canceled the popular election of a candidate

Are you saying we need to intervene to save the people of Romania from progressive Liberalism?

Or do we only like elections were the Liberals win?

[Thousands of people rallied in the Romanian capital, Bucharest, on January 12 to protest the December annulment of the presidential election in which right-wing, pro-Russian candidate Calin Georgescu unexpectedly won the first round.

The protest began around 2 p.m. at Bucharest's University Square and spread out to other sites....
Protests have been continuing in Romania since December 6 when the Constitutional Court canceled the election two days before the second round amid allegations of Russian interference.

Demonstrators on January 12 waved the Romanian flag and carried Christian icons as wells as banners that read "Democracy," "Freedom," and "Give us back the second round," as they demanded the court to reverse its ruling.]

https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-protests-calin-georgescu-presidential-election/33273091.html

---

Never said intervene, but I support the cause of freedom and democracy.

---

Just not in Romania...and not right now when they vote for the wrong candidate

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

That violence was there long before

Its a classic case of post 1960s social science to try and blame the Westerners for the violence and discrimination already present in the global south.

The Hutu and Tutsi has already existed as distinct groups long before the Belgians showed up

[The Twa were traditionally forest dwelling people, and were the original inhabitants of Rwanda. They already a marginalized group within Rwandan society.

Until 1895 an independent Tutsi monarchy ruled the nation, implementing increasingly anti-Hutu policies. In 1895 the country became a German province, and after the end of the World War One Belgium took control of Rwanda under a League of Nations mandate. The Belgians initially relied on the traditional hierarchy and social structures including leaving the Tutsi King, who was recognized by both Hutus and Tutsis, to run the country

[Rwabugiri conquered several smaller states, expanded the kingdom west and north, and initiated administrative reforms; these included uhuhake, in which Tutsi patrons ceded cattle, and therefore privileged status, to Hutu or Tutsi clients in exchange for economic and personal service, and uburetwa, a corvee system in which Hutu were forced to work for Tutsi chiefs]

[The Belgians viewed the Tutsi minority as superior, and favored Tutsi for leadership positions]

The Belgians literally riled on group differences and policies of who would be in leadership that existed long before they were there

---

No, the relationship was mostly harmonious under the monarchy. There was some conflict, but it was more based on clan than ethnicity. It was the Europeans, fascinated as they were with pseudo-science and racial supremacy, who stratified the country according to race and introduced new levels of resentment.

Westerners tend to see any history of conflict in Third World societies as evidence of incurable barbarism, but we're much more forgiving of our own. Ukraine's history is obviously fraught with violence, but no one assumed the worst was inevitable. The situation after the Cold War required delicate management and wise leadership. Sadly, Ukraine got the opposite.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

That violence was there long before

Its a classic case of post 1960s social science to try and blame the Westerners for the violence and discrimination already present in the global south.

The Hutu and Tutsi has already existed as distinct groups long before the Belgians showed up

[The Twa were traditionally forest dwelling people, and were the original inhabitants of Rwanda. They already a marginalized group within Rwandan society.

Until 1895 an independent Tutsi monarchy ruled the nation, implementing increasingly anti-Hutu policies. In 1895 the country became a German province, and after the end of the World War One Belgium took control of Rwanda under a League of Nations mandate. The Belgians initially relied on the traditional hierarchy and social structures including leaving the Tutsi King, who was recognized by both Hutus and Tutsis, to run the country

[Rwabugiri conquered several smaller states, expanded the kingdom west and north, and initiated administrative reforms; these included uhuhake, in which Tutsi patrons ceded cattle, and therefore privileged status, to Hutu or Tutsi clients in exchange for economic and personal service, and uburetwa, a corvee system in which Hutu were forced to work for Tutsi chiefs]

[The Belgians viewed the Tutsi minority as superior, and favored Tutsi for leadership positions]

The Belgians literally riled on group differences and policies of who would be in leadership that existed long before they were there

---

No, the relationship was mostly harmonious under the monarchy.

---

Yea I am sure that forced labor system under a absolute monarchy was very harmonious

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

That violence was there long before

Its a classic case of post 1960s social science to try and blame the Westerners for the violence and discrimination already present in the global south.

The Hutu and Tutsi has already existed as distinct groups long before the Belgians showed up

[The Twa were traditionally forest dwelling people, and were the original inhabitants of Rwanda. They already a marginalized group within Rwandan society.

Until 1895 an independent Tutsi monarchy ruled the nation, implementing increasingly anti-Hutu policies. In 1895 the country became a German province, and after the end of the World War One Belgium took control of Rwanda under a League of Nations mandate. The Belgians initially relied on the traditional hierarchy and social structures including leaving the Tutsi King, who was recognized by both Hutus and Tutsis, to run the country

[Rwabugiri conquered several smaller states, expanded the kingdom west and north, and initiated administrative reforms; these included uhuhake, in which Tutsi patrons ceded cattle, and therefore privileged status, to Hutu or Tutsi clients in exchange for economic and personal service, and uburetwa, a corvee system in which Hutu were forced to work for Tutsi chiefs]

[The Belgians viewed the Tutsi minority as superior, and favored Tutsi for leadership positions]

The Belgians literally riled on group differences and policies of who would be in leadership that existed long before they were there

---

No, the relationship was mostly harmonious under the monarchy.

---

Yea I am sure that forced labor system under a absolute monarchy was very harmonious

---

Don't follow the same rabbit trail that so many here do. Europe had monarchy for a long time, but it didn't have the Holocaust until democracy came along.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

That violence was there long before

Its a classic case of post 1960s social science to try and blame the Westerners for the violence and discrimination already present in the global south.

The Hutu and Tutsi has already existed as distinct groups long before the Belgians showed up

[The Twa were traditionally forest dwelling people, and were the original inhabitants of Rwanda. They already a marginalized group within Rwandan society.

Until 1895 an independent Tutsi monarchy ruled the nation, implementing increasingly anti-Hutu policies. In 1895 the country became a German province, and after the end of the World War One Belgium took control of Rwanda under a League of Nations mandate. The Belgians initially relied on the traditional hierarchy and social structures including leaving the Tutsi King, who was recognized by both Hutus and Tutsis, to run the country

[Rwabugiri conquered several smaller states, expanded the kingdom west and north, and initiated administrative reforms; these included uhuhake, in which Tutsi patrons ceded cattle, and therefore privileged status, to Hutu or Tutsi clients in exchange for economic and personal service, and uburetwa, a corvee system in which Hutu were forced to work for Tutsi chiefs]

[The Belgians viewed the Tutsi minority as superior, and favored Tutsi for leadership positions]

The Belgians literally riled on group differences and policies of who would be in leadership that existed long before they were there

---

No, the relationship was mostly harmonious under the monarchy.

---

Yea I am sure that forced labor system under a absolute monarchy was very harmonious

---

Don't follow the same rabbit trail that so many here do. Europe had monarchy for a long time, but it didn't have the Holocaust until democracy came along.

---

You've officially lost it man. Good God in Heaven

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Risking nuclear conflagration and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in a pointless slaughter for the enrichment of Western oligarchs is the epitome of evil. It may be the worst crime against humanity that I've seen in my lifetime. Kudos to Trump for saying enough is enough.

---

Not the invasion, but the efforts to resist it and the weapons given to assist are the "worst crime against humanity". Unbelievable.

---

Zelensky has insisted on defending indefensible positions, in defiance of advice, and at huge cost in human life, over and over again. We have not only supported but insisted on suicidal gambits like the 2023 counter-offensive. Biden was bloodthirsty enough to try to make conscription of men 18-25 years old a condition of further aid, even though that would effectively end the Ukrainians as a people. The cynics who say we're fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian aren't kidding. It's exactly what we've tried to do, and it is a crime. Anyone who cares at all about Ukraine should want to end this war.

---

Even if I bought into your theory, it isn't even close to a crime against humanity. Why are you so supportive and forgiving of Russia's role here? I'm sincerely curious.

---

It is a crime for a military commander to act with reckless or wanton disregard for the lives of his own troops. Many here will be unprepared for the scale of the destruction that will be revealed after the war ends.

I've spent a lifetime listening to my government terrorize us with one devil after another. It amazes me that people keep buying the same recycled propaganda over and over again. Putin is just an updated version of Saddam Hussein, no doubt a bad guy in some respects, but hardly the super-villain we're led to believe.

Ultimately my reasons for wanting to avoid war have nothing to do with Putin. Our vision of Western hegemony and the "end of history" is dangerous and wrong. If we keep pushing it, we will end up at war with Russia, which likely means the end of both civilizations. Of course our neoconservative politicians don't expect that. They think Russia will fall into our hands like a ripe fruit--just like Iraq, Iran, and every other prize was supposed to do. As usual, they're wrong. They've been wrong too many times, and the stakes are too high, for them to be listened to any more.

But of course I'm not going to convince anyone of that. Americans don't do reality. We live in the greatest country in history, where the credit card will never max out, we can all live our wildest dreams, and the whole world wants to be like us (except when they don't and we have to kill a few of them). That's why Russia needs to win. If they don't draw the line, no one will.

---

So Russia is saving us from ourselves by invading Ukraine. At least we flushed out the Russia love.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

The_barBEARian said:

---

Top contributors in aid for Ukraine/person:

Denmark: 1850€/person
Norway: 1520€/person
Netherlands: 744€/person
Finland: 700€/person
Sweden: 610€/person

Then there's USA: 196€/person

Mah tax money! 😭

— Tomi 🇺🇦🇫🇮🇪🇺 (@TallbarFIN) March 4, 2025

The typical response from our "allies" to receiving American tax payer money...

---

Such a ridiculous post by still another clueless European.

The US has donated far more money than all of Europe put together.

Time for the US to stop protecting Europe from themselves.

And focus on our own people.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Risking nuclear conflagration and sacrificing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in a pointless slaughter for the enrichment of Western oligarchs is the epitome of evil. It may be the worst crime against humanity that I've seen in my lifetime. Kudos to Trump for saying enough is enough.

---

Not the invasion, but the efforts to resist it and the weapons given to assist are the "worst crime against humanity". Unbelievable.

---

Zelensky has insisted on defending indefensible positions, in defiance of advice, and at huge cost in human life, over and over again. We have not only supported but insisted on suicidal gambits like the 2023 counter-offensive. Biden was bloodthirsty enough to try to make conscription of men 18-25 years old a condition of further aid, even though that would effectively end the Ukrainians as a people. The cynics who say we're fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian aren't kidding. It's exactly what we've tried to do, and it is a crime. Anyone who cares at all about Ukraine should want to end this war.

---

Even if I bought into your theory, it isn't even close to a crime against humanity. Why are you so supportive and forgiving of Russia's role here? I'm sincerely curious.

---

It is a crime for a military commander to act with reckless or wanton disregard for the lives of his own troops. Many here will be unprepared for the scale of the destruction that will be revealed after the war ends.

I've spent a lifetime listening to my government terrorize us with one devil after another. It amazes me that people keep buying the same recycled propaganda over and over again. Putin is just an updated version of Saddam Hussein, no doubt a bad guy in some respects, but hardly the super-villain we're led to believe.

Ultimately my reasons for wanting to avoid war have nothing to do with Putin. Our vision of Western hegemony and the "end of history" is dangerous and wrong. If we keep pushing it, we will end up at war with Russia, which likely means the end of both civilizations. Of course our neoconservative politicians don't expect that. They think Russia will fall into our hands like a ripe fruit--just like Iraq, Iran, and every other prize was supposed to do. As usual, they're wrong. They've been wrong too many times, and the stakes are too high, for them to be listened to any more.

But of course I'm not going to convince anyone of that. Americans don't do reality. We live in the greatest country in history, where the credit card will never max out, we can all live our wildest dreams, and the whole world wants to be like us (except when they don't and we have to kill a few of them). That's why Russia needs to win. If they don't draw the line, no one will.

---

So Russia is saving us from ourselves by invading Ukraine. At least we flushed out the Russia love.

---

Again, it has nothing to do with loving Russia. It has to do with facing reality and wanting what's best for ourselves.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

His idiotic lunacy is on full display today.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

---

You're inventing a parallel that is not only incredibly wrong and lacks any understanding of the Rwanda situation, it's frankly highly offensive.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

---

You're inventing a parallel that is not only incredibly wrong and lacks any understanding of the Rwanda situation, it's frankly highly offensive.

---

The parallel is that both societies were poisoned by theories of racial supremacy imported from the West. I don't see why it's offensive to note that fact.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

---

You're inventing a parallel that is not only incredibly wrong and lacks any understanding of the Rwanda situation, it's frankly highly offensive.

---

The parallel is that both societies were poisoned by theories of racial supremacy imported from the West. I don't see why it's offensive to note that fact.

---

It's stupid maybe but not "highly offensive."

For being such a tough guy who brags about traveling to all these ****holes and staring down true evil, ATL Bear is incredibly low T.

We need to get him taking some injections.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

---

You're inventing a parallel that is not only incredibly wrong and lacks any understanding of the Rwanda situation, it's frankly highly offensive.

---

The parallel is that both societies were poisoned by theories of racial supremacy imported from the West. I don't see why it's offensive to note that fact.

---

Because it's not a fact. There is zero similarity between the conflict in Rwanda and the Russia/Ukraine situation. Hutu and Tutsi discord spans centuries and multiple countries. Russia Ukraine ethnic conflict fomented by the West is straight Kremlin propaganda with zero history (fact) and the thinnest and minimal of circumstantial associations used to invent it. I'm still in stunned awe you'd even make such an assertion.

The US invented racial supremacy 10K years ago

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

---

You're inventing a parallel that is not only incredibly wrong and lacks any understanding of the Rwanda situation, it's frankly highly offensive.

---

The parallel is that both societies were poisoned by theories of racial supremacy imported from the West. I don't see why it's offensive to note that fact.

---

Because it's not a fact. There is zero similarity between the conflict in Rwanda and the Russia/Ukraine situation. Hutu and Tutsi discord spans centuries and multiple countries. Russia Ukraine ethnic conflict fomented by the West is straight Kremlin propaganda with zero history (fact) and the thinnest and minimal of circumstantial associations used to invent it. I'm still in stunned awe you'd even make such an assertion.

---

Ukraine has a long history too, including the history of German occupation and racist pogroms. Refusing to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

The_barBEARian said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

sombear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

Trump just paused all military aid to Ukraine

---

Wow, didn't think he'd do it.

Another broken American promise, all because Trump got his feelings hurt. What a teenage drama queen.

---

Trump just saved us another few million dollars that we never would have gotten a return on. Why does that bother you?

---

We broke a 30-year promise. Our word now is meaningless to the free world.

Do you know many Ukrainians? They are some of the greatest people you'll ever meet. They love America. They love freedom. And they've proven they'll fight like mad to defend what they love. We just quit on them and sided with the epitome of evil.

---

Stop spouting CNN and change the channel. There are much greater evils out there than Putin. And why do we have to keep funding the "Free World"? They only reason they are Free is because we are paying for everything.

---

They've paid with their lives for 10 years. Courage and bravery to admire.

We promised we'd protect them.

I don't watch tv news, and if I did, it sure as heck wouldn't be CNN

---

The "free world" has paid with their lives for 10 years? I think not.

if you want to see pure evil, turn on any Liberal news station. 60 million babies butchered since Roe v Wade. Liberals make Putin look like an amateur. And George Soros makes both of them look like 1st year rookies

---

Not sure you've seen a lot of evil if that's where you're at. BTW, they have abortion in Russia and Putin is pro choice if that is important to your "evil" gauge.

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

I can't believe you typed that out and hit send.

---

Take it up with the Nazis; I didn't invent the ideology.

---

You're inventing a parallel that is not only incredibly wrong and lacks any understanding of the Rwanda situation, it's frankly highly offensive.

---

The parallel is that both societies were poisoned by theories of racial supremacy imported from the West. I don't see why it's offensive to note that fact.

---

It's stupid maybe but not "highly offensive."

For being such a tough guy who brags about traveling to all these ****holes and staring down true evil, ATL Bear is incredibly low T.

We need to get him taking some injections.

---

Nothing to brag about. At all. Wouldn't mind taking a hammer to some of the mirrors in my mind if I could though. If that makes me weak then guilty. Besides, no one can be as tough as you…

ron.reagan said:

---

The US invented racial supremacy 10K years ago

---

not too long after we invented the electric razor

Zelensky DELIBERATELY BLEW UP the minerals deal on Friday.

Europeans and Canada make a big show of how much they would support Zelensky.

They insulted America.

Now Z wants to do the deal again?

The EU and NATO are student government, it’s not real.

The 🇺🇸 is power! pic.twitter.com/z7YVAeXFQX

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) March 4, 2025

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Two problems with that view.

First is cause-effect error: they were excited because one cannot "engineer" the kinds of riots massive enough to cause the fall of a democratically elected regime. There has to be broad, deep anger at what a pro-Russian president did = succumb to Russian meddling by vetoing the EU bill he'd promised to sign in his election campaign. (cause-effect errors like that are the foundation of the entire "Maidan was a coup" line of nonsense).

second is factual error: The vote to remove Yanukovich occurred after he'd fled to Russia for exile, and happened in accordance with the Ukrainian constitution.

Quit "feeling" your way thru this, lurching from half-truths to entirely untruths.

Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. They debated it. They voted on it. Their parliament passed it. Yanukovich promised to sign it. Then the Russians twisted Yanukovich's arm and he veto'd it. Demonstrations erupted. Yanukovich tried to suppress them. That caused riots. Yanukovich used gunfire to quell the riots. That failed. He fled. The office was vacant. The Ukrainian parliament filed it, per constitution. Western governments flooded in with financial support. The Russians then invaded Crimea and Donbas. Western governments failed to follow up with military support. So the Russians invaded to take it all. That's what actually happened, buddy, no matter how incongruent it might be with your faith that it was all a great big CIA plot.

One does not need CIA involvement to cause a peoples to become angry with their leaders. One does not need CIA involvement to cause demonstrations & riots against those leaders. Those things usually happen organically usually when the leaders screw something up, like selling out your country to Russia.......

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

I've worked all over the world, including Haiti, Jamaica during the revolution and Monrovia, Liberia. Yes, I've seen evil. And I am not the one that said Putin was the "epitome of evil". Liberals are MUCH worse. 60 million babies that never committed a single sin... all with their skulls crushed

---

Rwanda, Eastern Chad during the 2nd Sudan War, Angola during the Congo Wars. That's where I saw true evil up close. And if you were in Liberia during some of Charles Taylor's madness you should have a better perspective than what you're throwing around.

---

Rwanda is a good example of violence rooted in Western colonialism. The Germans and Belgians divided Rwandans into artificial "races" and indoctrinated them with hatred for each other, much like the US has done to Ukraine. The ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists actually believe they are racially superior to the Russian "orcs."

---

That violence was there long before

Its a classic case of post 1960s social science to try and blame the Westerners for the violence and discrimination already present in the global south.

The Hutu and Tutsi has already existed as distinct groups long before the Belgians showed up

[The Twa were traditionally forest dwelling people, and were the original inhabitants of Rwanda. They already a marginalized group within Rwandan society.

Until 1895 an independent Tutsi monarchy ruled the nation, implementing increasingly anti-Hutu policies. In 1895 the country became a German province, and after the end of the World War One Belgium took control of Rwanda under a League of Nations mandate. The Belgians initially relied on the traditional hierarchy and social structures including leaving the Tutsi King, who was recognized by both Hutus and Tutsis, to run the country

[Rwabugiri conquered several smaller states, expanded the kingdom west and north, and initiated administrative reforms; these included uhuhake, in which Tutsi patrons ceded cattle, and therefore privileged status, to Hutu or Tutsi clients in exchange for economic and personal service, and uburetwa, a corvee system in which Hutu were forced to work for Tutsi chiefs]

[The Belgians viewed the Tutsi minority as superior, and favored Tutsi for leadership positions]

The Belgians literally riled on group differences and policies of who would be in leadership that existed long before they were there

---

No, the relationship was mostly harmonious under the monarchy.

---

Yea I am sure that forced labor system under a absolute monarchy was very harmonious

---

Don't follow the same rabbit trail that so many here do. Europe had monarchy for a long time, but it didn't have the Holocaust until democracy came along.

---

I didn't know Genghis Khan invented democracy.

See, if you come here, you'll learn something new every day.

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

lol Russia is being encroached upon only on the sense the number of countries they can invade goes down when NATO expands.


Zero chance Nato ever invades Russia, and Russia full well knows that

---

Had the USA lost the Cold War in 1991 and broken up leaving a rump American Federation that was 33% smaller in territory and with half the population….not to mention having to watch NATO collapse and the Warsaw pact expand to include all of Western Europe (our old sphere of influence )

DC leaders would probably be pretty upset

And they would get downright vicious if Russia then tied to expand its military alliance into Canada or Mexico and put military bases right on our borders

---

Again, we see the war policy opponents making stuff up to fit their template.

1) The USSR expanded alliances with states in Central America and we didn't invade them.

2) No one. Not one leader, advocated putting military bases in Ukraine.

3) For that matter, Nato had not put a single permanent base in any of the former Warsaw Pact states, specifically to avoid alarming Russia, to signal that admittance of those states was a "Russia shall not invade here" sign, not a springboard for and invasion of Russia. (And Russia knows that.)

4) on the day the war started in 2014, Ukraine was a Nato partner, JUST LIKE SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

5) Ukraine did not actually apply for membership until after Russia outright invaded in 2022.

The whole "Nato started it" is preposterously disingenuous bs, even more easily disprovable than the "Maidan was a USG sponsored coup" nonsense. Refusing to promise not to do something is not grounds for war. Prudent powers should never say what they will or will not do just to keep others happy. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Keep your opponent guessing. Make them prepare for every scenario, which forces them to disperse resources away from the more likely ones.

The premise of your argument is that we must coddle every Russian concern. How about we start demanding Russia coddle some of ours, like promising not to invade ANYT of their neighbors? Will you advocate going to war with them if they refuse to do so?

---

Just to expand on #4 and further demonstrate how ridiculous the NATO argument it, nobody in Ukraine even wanted NATO in 2014. Politicians were uniform in openly running against it. Russia turned Ukraine to NATO by invading it. It's just that simple.

---

Not sure why you keep repeating that "no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2014" or before

Pretty easy to prove that almost half the country did want that.

It was a long time debate in the country....a fault line between the pro-western and pro-eastern parties

Yushchenko was saying in 2009 that Ukraine should join NATO

[Yuschenko stressed that the talks held in the frames of his two-day
official visit to Belgium have shown that Ukraine has all the grounds
to be optimistic about its chances for joining the European Union and
NATO.]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10159

[President Viktor Yushchenko hoped to change that. He had been swept to power during the 2004-2005 Orange Revolution, protests that were prompted by reports of electoral fraud. Yushchenko promised the protesters a future that did away with Ukraine's corrupt, Kremlin-dominated past. Much like Georgia, another former Soviet state seeking to shake off Russian influence, Ukraine saw NATO membership as one route to independence and sought membership in 2008.]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/04/that-time-ukraine-tried-to-join-nato-and-nato-said-no/

Plus here is a BBC article from June of 2010

[Since his February inauguration, Mr Yanukovych has wasted no time in re-shaping Ukraine's foreign policy in a more Moscow-friendly way, the BBC's David Stern in Kiev says.
In April, he agreed to extend the lease allowing Russia's Black Sea fleet to be stationed in the southern port of Sevastopol by 25 years in return for cheaper gas.
An extension of the lease, due to expire in 2017, had been opposed by Mr Yushchenko.
Moscow had made known its opposition to Ukraine's plans to join Nato,]

https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626

---

the error in your entire argument here is that talking about Nato is synonymous with joining Nato..

---

But I didn't

I just showed sombear that there were articles proving a desire among the Western oriented politicians in Ukraine to join NATO going back a long time

---

So what?
That is cited ad nauseum by policy opponents as the proximate cause of the war.
A majority of citizens preferring closer ties with a neighbor is not now, nor has it ever been grounds for war.

---

You keep forgetting (or don't want to deal with the fact) that half of Ukraine don't want to be with the West

They wanted closer relations with Russia

And their political faction even won the Presidency in 2010

Then there was the little (but) violent street coup in 2014 that illegally overthrew that President

And for some reason US Senator and various State department and security folks flew into a Kyiv to root on the protestors/rioters

---

Uh no. I mean, you're hysteria making stuff up out of whole cloth there. EU membership has always had comfortable-to-strong popular support in Ukraine. That's why the Maidan happened…..


Seriously, buddy. Come back to reality.

---

If it was overwhelming then I don't think Nuland and McCain would have been so excited about a weeks long street riot and illegal vote to remove the old President who stood in the way

---

Two problems with that view.

First is cause-effect error: they were excited because one cannot "engineer" the kinds of riots massive enough to cause the fall of a democratically elected regime. There has to be broad, deep anger at what a pro-Russian president did = succumb to Russian meddling by vetoing the EU bill he'd promised to sign in his election campaign. (cause-effect errors like that are the foundation of the entire "Maidan was a coup" line of nonsense).

second is factual error: The vote to remove Yanukovich occurred after he'd fled to Russia for exile, and happened in accordance with the Ukrainian constitution.

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This is the funniest thing I've read since they quit running "The Far Side." Seriously, dude…great work.