FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

There are more than two choices. Perhaps we could do a cost/benefit analysis to our nation and do what is in our best interests?


Thus far, nobody has articulated why it is in our best interests to funnel billions to Ukraine other than "Putin bad."

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference? Nations with alot of heads and crappy economies are welfare cases, not allies

---

NATO is approx. half the world's economy.......

---

I agree. This is one area we are lock step (like the Trump goose step comment?).

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

I can't believe you continue to make this argument. I mean, why don't you quit your job and go down and defend the border? Travel around the country speaking out against gays and Israel or helping to round up illegals?

Think of your favorite word, context, or nuance. There obviously is a world of difference between gladly donating $100 of my salary to support an invaded country and . . . going to fight for that country.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, supporting those that want to join the West's economy, such as Ukraine, Taiwan, S Korea, and others, is smart policy to preserve our markets. Even if you are not for Reagan's "Shining City on the Hill" as a beacon of freedom, providing assistance in the form of equipment and ammo is good, sound policy.

As for the false choice between Ukraine and the Border, the 2 have nothing to do with each other. Biden is doing the border on purpose, you can have no debt and a surplus and not one more dollar is going to the Border under Biden. So, you have really done nothing but alienate and abandon the ones that really want to be our allies. Smart move...

All that may be true but it doesn't mean that it is in americas interest to send endless billions to corrupt Ukraine so they can use it for what we they want. How much is actually going towards the war and how much is skimmed off the top for someone's Swiss bank account? I don't know and I doubt anyone in the US does.

historian said:

---

All that may be true but it doesn't mean that it is in americas interest to send endless billions to corrupt Ukraine so they can use it for what we they want. How much is actually going towards the war and how much is skimmed off the top for someone's Swiss bank account? I don't know and I doubt anyone in the US does.

---

If you want oversight or even designate what it spent on, no issue. I am all for it. But that is a different issue from supporting Ukraine defend itself and selling them weapons to do so. Same with border, we need to do more but that is separate from Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

Has Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?


And stop with the "isolationist" garbage…not getting ourselves involved in every foolish war in the 3rd world is not and never has been "isolationism"….its called not getting sucked into stupid costly wars will little upside for the American people

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

As Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?


And stop with the "isolationist" garbage…not getting invited in every foolish war in the 3rd world is not and never has been "isolationism"….its called not getting sucked into stupid costly wars will little upside for the American people

---

You have made your position clear, Russia and China can do whatever they want and we should not help those being threatened or attacked unless we have a signed, binding treaty.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke. Roll those Tanks, none of our business

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

As Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?


And stop with the "isolationist" garbage…not getting invited in every foolish war in the 3rd world is not and never has been "isolationism"….its called not getting sucked into stupid costly wars will little upside for the American people

---

You have made your position clear, Russia and China can do whatever they want and we should not help those being threatened or attacked

---

I have made my position clear…you just have a hard time arguing against it so you have to make up a new straw man position and attribute it to me.


Russia and China can not attack enrolled allies of the USA or we will smash them.

Ukraine is not an enrolled ally of the USA.

We have no business or moral duty to fight a proxy war with them over some rusted out highly corrupt state right on their border.


If you think Ukraine needs help in their war then get on a plane and head over there. I'm sure they would be happy to have you

America has absolutely no reason to get into a shooting war with Russia over Ukraine. It might be in our interest to prevent Ukraine from being conquered, although that might not have been Putin's goal at the beginning. It is a very complicated situation requiring careful and wise consideration.

Unfortunately, our current leaders are imbeciles or worse who do not know what a woman is, think parents trying to protect their children from perverts and pedophiles are "domestic terrorists", have opened our border completely for all kinds of criminal activity (illegal aliens, drug smuggling, sex trafficking, etc), use the FBI & other federal agencies to harass their political opponents, and all kinds of other illegal & unconstitutional actions. They gave corrupted most if not all of the federal government. The fascists are evil.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

As Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?


And stop with the "isolationist" garbage…not getting invited in every foolish war in the 3rd world is not and never has been "isolationism"….its called not getting sucked into stupid costly wars will little upside for the American people

---

You have made your position clear, Russia and China can do whatever they want and we should not help those being threatened or attacked

---

I have made my position clear…you just have a hard time arguing against it so you have to make up a new straw man position and attribute it to me.


Russia and China can not attack enrolled allies of the USA or we will smash them.

Ukraine is not an enrolled ally of the USA.

We have no business or moral duty to fight a proxy war with them over some rusted out highly corrupt state right on their border.


If you think Ukraine needs help in their war then get on a plane and head over there. I'm sure they would be happy to have you

---

How about I authorize the U.S. government to spend my tax dollars on weapons and support for Ukraine? I mean it's illegal for me to purchase military hardware.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

Has Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

---

They attack us directly every day. It just doesn't always involve munitions.

---

China does, no doubt. I'm not so sure about Russia. They are not our friends but I'm not sure they are our enemies either.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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historian said:

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I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

As Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?


And stop with the "isolationist" garbage…not getting invited in every foolish war in the 3rd world is not and never has been "isolationism"….its called not getting sucked into stupid costly wars will little upside for the American people

---

You have made your position clear, Russia and China can do whatever they want and we should not help those being threatened or attacked

---

I have made my position clear…you just have a hard time arguing against it so you have to make up a new straw man position and attribute it to me.


Russia and China can not attack enrolled allies of the USA or we will smash them.

Ukraine is not an enrolled ally of the USA.

We have no business or moral duty to fight a proxy war with them over some rusted out highly corrupt state right on their border.


If you think Ukraine needs help in their war then get on a plane and head over there. I'm sure they would be happy to have you

---

Exactly, your position is that the US should not offer aid to any Nation that we don't have a written, binding agreement in place prior to any need. The conditions that the aid is offered is irrelevant, there is no agreement they are on their own. Very clear.

I am confused why you are upset with your position being stated in a Policy format. All the other stuff is BS bluster, Unless we get something in writing before, we are out. Got it.

ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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historian said:

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I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

As Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?


And stop with the "isolationist" garbage…not getting invited in every foolish war in the 3rd world is not and never has been "isolationism"….its called not getting sucked into stupid costly wars will little upside for the American people

---

You have made your position clear, Russia and China can do whatever they want and we should not help those being threatened or attacked

---

I have made my position clear…you just have a hard time arguing against it so you have to make up a new straw man position and attribute it to me.


Russia and China can not attack enrolled allies of the USA or we will smash them.

Ukraine is not an enrolled ally of the USA.

We have no business or moral duty to fight a proxy war with them over some rusted out highly corrupt state right on their border.


If you think Ukraine needs help in their war then get on a plane and head over there. I'm sure they would be happy to have you

---

How about I authorize the U.S. government to spend my tax dollars on weapons and support for Ukraine? I mean it's illegal for me to purchase military hardware.

---

There you go, Democracy in action. Put a check box on our Tax Returns.

historian said:

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America has absolutely no reason to get into a shooting war with Russia over Ukraine. It might be in our interest to prevent Ukraine from being conquered, although that might not have been Putin's goal at the beginning. It is a very complicated situation requiring careful and wise consideration.

Unfortunately, our current leaders are imbeciles or worse who do not know what a woman is, think parents trying to protect their children from perverts and pedophiles are "domestic terrorists", have opened our border completely for all kinds of criminal activity (illegal aliens, drug smuggling, sex trafficking, etc), use the FBI & other federal agencies to harass their political opponents, and all kinds of other illegal & unconstitutional actions. They gave corrupted most if not all of the federal government. The fascists are evil.

---

How is the US in a shooting war? The US is supplying arms and ammo to Ukraine at their request. Why are people making this more than it is. We want a forensic accounting, fine. You want to limit what it can be used for by Ukraine, such as blankets, fine. All legitimate discussions on the current situation. The US in a shooting war with Russia over Ukraine? Not happening today, no one said it would happen and if it is on the table than the discussion is warranted.

Right now, it is just a distraction. If Trump did this, the same people would be crowing how Obama sent blankets and Trump is tough. Biden does it, it is a boondoggle and the military industrial complex making money... Trump sent Javelins and no one said a word, he was crowned as tough.

I finally read this article. This headline is misleading. Yes, many are surprised by the economic growth in 2023 (after 2022 contraction), but it is propped up by defense spending - a traditional wartime economy that has not helped joe public.

More importantly, inflation and interest rates are sky high, the Ruble has tanked against the dollar, and 15% of Russians are now below Russia's poverty line, which is a brutal $162/month.

I admit I hoped and expected it would be worse because I said from the start and posted many times that the best hope for Russia withdrawing or at least cutting a reasonable deal is Putin getting pressure from the Oligs and the public. But it is far from rosy over there.

historian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

historian said:

---

I often wonder if the billions of $$$$ we send to Ukraine is part of some elaborate scheme of Biden paying them off to keep quiet about Hunter's crimes & his own. Maybe it's hush money and we are footing the bill. When I'm my most cynical, I'm beginning to think that far too much of the federal budget is a complex money laundering scheme to buy off various constituencies to keep them voting for the Dems, and to help with stuffing ballot boxes, rent a mob activities, etc. it's getting more & more difficult NOT to see the anti democratic "Democrats" as the largest organized crime ring in history. And we said get to foot the hill for all their shenanigans.

I really hope I'm wrong.

---

C'mon man . . . 45 countries, including virtually the entire free world and all of our allies, are supporting Ukraine.

---

Right… "entire world"






Reminds me of the meme:

---

Look at who isn't. Besides India the economies are not near enough to support the Russian economy, nevermind China. Basically, the EU, North America, the Asian Ring and Aus/NZ, basically any economy worth a ***** Let's see how lone a India/Pakistan/Russia/China economic power lasts...

---

Oh sure.

The Western bloc has all the best economies and most productive nations.

It's the most formidable economic/military alliance on earth without a doubt.

Just if we are counting heads…there are a lot of countries out there they don't care about the priorities of DC

---

Since when does counting heads make the difference?

---

When the pro-Ukraine war side pretends that there is some kind of world consensus against Russia.

Truth of course is that most nations don't care at all and can't be bothered to even be bribed by DC into pretending to care about this war…

---

You can go off on all this horse crap that means nothing. Bottomline Russia invaded Ukraine. Do you stand for or against Nations defending themselves? All the rest is semantics. Putin rolled tanks over the border, you either support him and do nothing or support Ukraine and help. Which is it? What do you stand for?

---

Ukraine is welcome to defend themselves (without our taxpayer money)

Good luck to them…if you feel so strongly about a war on the other side of the earth that does not effect us…you are welcome to fly over and volunteer to fight.

---

Well, we got our answer. Putin and Xi can do whatever they want as long as we don't have a treaty in place. You just conceded alot of the world to China and Russia.

Isolationism is bad policy. Leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill is bad policy. The US is a global trading economy, ...

---

Has Putin attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

Has Xi attacked an enrolled ally of the United States?

---

They attack us directly every day. It just doesn't always involve munitions.

---

China does, no doubt. I'm not so sure about Russia. They are not our friends but I'm not sure they are our enemies either.

---

I'm certain about Russia.

The biggest threat to the people of the United States comes from Mexico.

I didn't say we were in a shooting war. However, the longer we are involved the more likely that could happen. Some people seem to want a war with Russia. Some of Biden's rhetoric over the past several months hinted at it.

My main issue is that it is a boondoggle the US cannot afford. Our economy is fine the toilet and our $34 trillion national debt is unsustainable.

KaiBear said:

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The biggest threat to the people of the United States comes from Mexico.

---

From all over the world including large numbers from China & terrorist sponsoring nations in the Middle East. The scariest part of guys is how many of the millions of illegals Joe Biden invited into the US are single, young, military age. Thus does not mean they are all soldiers are terrorists but the threat potential is very large.

sombear said:

---

I finally read this article. This headline is misleading. Yes, many are surprised by the economic growth in 2023 (after 2022 contraction), but it is propped up by defense spending - that has not helped joe public.

More importantly, inflation and interest rates are sky high….

---

Almost sounds like you are describing the USA

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

I finally read this article. This headline is misleading. Yes, many are surprised by the economic growth in 2023 (after 2022 contraction), but it is propped up by defense spending - that has not helped joe public.

More importantly, inflation and interest rates are sky high….

---

Almost sounds like you are describing the USA

---

We certainly have our problems, but not even close actually.

Russia: 16% interest rates. Record inflations. Staple fruits and vegetables 50 - 80% higher just since last year.

And we can certainly debate defense spending, but we're nowhere near a war-time economy like Russia is.

I keep in touch with former colleagues there. Tough times for the general public. Unfortunately, thanks to state media, they mostly blame . . . the U.S. of course.

historian said:

---

I didn't say we were in a shooting war. However, the longer we are involved the more likely that could happen. Some people seem to want a war with Russia. Some of Biden's rhetoric over the past several months hinted at it.

My main issue is that it is a boondoggle the US cannot afford. Our economy is fine the toilet and our $34 trillion national debt is unsustainable.

---

But, you guys keeping mixing issues. Our Debt is ridiculous, agree. The Border is our biggest security concern, agree. But they are not tied to providing Ukraine with what they need to defend themselves. We can stop ALL foreign spending today and not one more penny will go to the Border, lowering debt or energy production. Biden won't do it, period. There is no cause and effect to Ukraine and any of what you guys are complaining about. It is Biden.

You want to discuss what level is appropriate? I am all for it. I believe we should be getting paid for the support in some tangible fashion. Same with Israel and Taiwan. I have no issues getting concessions for support we are providing. I have no problem getting NATO to pay more. But, not supporting? Disagree. Walking away or quibbling over treaty vs Memorandum based on 1990' conditions to turn our backs? No way, that weakens us.

The biggest threat I see is Trump. Not because of him as President, but because he will ensure that the Dems are mobilized and they will do ANYTHING to beat him. Four more years of Biden and these policies will really do us in

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

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The biggest threat to the people of the United States comes from Mexico.

---

From all over the world including large numbers from China & terrorist sponsoring nations in the Middle East. The scariest part of guys is how many of the millions of illegals Joe Biden invited into the US are single, young, military age. Thus does not mean they are all soldiers are terrorists but the threat potential is very large.

---

Noticed the same dynamics.

And sooner rather than later a significant number of these single young men are going to get frustrated, bored and tired of being led around.

They are going to get busy.

I never said that there was a direct correlation or a cause-and-effect relationship between Ukraine and the other issues. It's really quite simple: whatever the issues with Ukraine are they are not nearly as important as our own border. Not one more penny should go to Ukraine into our own border is secured. Also we should have a complete audit so we know exactly where the money that we have sent has gone. If there is corruption and fraud then that should be taken into account and maybe the money should be reduced or cut off for that reason. It's one thing to help Ukraine defend them selves it's another thing to enrich Zelenskyy or somebody else.

Yes, it's Biden but he doesn't have total control. Congress controls the purse and they can limit what is spent on anything if they only show enough spine and do their jobs. In the end, our discussions on these boards are merely academic: we aren't in congress and have no control. We can only discuss what we think should be done and maybe try to influence our congressmen.

As for Trump, you are making the case for re-electing him.

I tend to think they are here for nefarious purposes from the beginning. Their decision to come here was not just to work, at least not all of them. The bigger question is who is helping them and why. Biden has essentially given the drug cartels control of our border, whether intentionally or not. But is the Chinese government part of the reason so many thousands of their citizens are coming? If so, why? Is Iran or some other Islamofascist regime sending thousands from the Middle East and again, why? These are very serious and legitimate questions and I do not know if anyone is even trying to answer them. Do we easily want another 9-11 because the potential exists.

Biden & our corrupt intelligence forces seem more interested in targeting Americans who disagree with any part of their radical & evil agenda.

historian said:

---

I never said that there was a direct correlation or a cause-and-effect relationship between Ukraine and the other issues. It's really quite simple: whatever the issues with Ukraine are they are not nearly as important as our own border. Not one more penny should go to Ukraine into our own border is secured. Also we should have a complete audit so we know exactly where the money that we have sent has gone. If there is corruption and fraud then that should be taken into account and maybe the money should be reduced or cut off for that reason. It's one thing to help Ukraine defend them selves it's another thing to enrich Zelenskyy or somebody else.

Yes, it's Biden but he doesn't have total control. Congress controls the purse and they can limit what is spent on anything if they only show enough spine and do their jobs. In the end, our discussions on these boards are merely academic: we aren't in congress and have no control. We can only discuss what we think should be done and maybe try to influence our congressmen.

As for Trump, you are making the case for re-electing him.

---

First Trump ain't getting re-elected. Running Trump is as big a boondoogle as Ukraine and more harmful.



GOP has no control, they don't have a working majority. m They can't even get a Speaker chosen without Dem help. So to say that there is any type of control in Congress is ridiculous. If Collins and Muraksi don't break the MAGA far right will. The last 2 elections have left us in the Dems hands.

Maybe, maybe not

historian said:

---

Maybe, maybe not

---

On this we agree. Once the Primaries actually happen and we see votes, not just polls or new stories we will know how strong Trump really is. My fear is he wins the nomination and then the door slams leaving the GOP hustling to make up ground.

historian said:

---

I never said that there was a direct correlation or a cause-and-effect relationship between Ukraine and the other issues. It's really quite simple: whatever the issues with Ukraine are they are not nearly as important as our own border. Not one more penny should go to Ukraine into our own border is secured. Also we should have a complete audit so we know exactly where the money that we have sent has gone. If there is corruption and fraud then that should be taken into account and maybe the money should be reduced or cut off for that reason. It's one thing to help Ukraine defend them selves it's another thing to enrich Zelenskyy or somebody else.

Yes, it's Biden but he doesn't have total control. Congress controls the purse and they can limit what is spent on anything if they only show enough spine and do their jobs. In the end, our discussions on these boards are merely academic: we aren't in congress and have no control. We can only discuss what we think should be done and maybe try to influence our congressmen.

As for Trump, you are making the case for re-electing him.

---

It would be silly to argue there is no corruption relative to money we are spending. And I would say that about any government, including our own, let alone Eastern Europe.

But keep in mind, a strong majority of what we have sent is actual supplies - weapons, equipment, materials, etc. While not impossible, it was far easier to track and control these things.

As for money, we are sending a relatively low amount. Countries all over the world are sending monetary aide - military and non-military. But, we are sending some of course. Fortunately, there have been relatively few stories about actual theft, etc. Plus, as much as we all criticize big finance, their involvement gives me greater confidence. Unlike governments, they are not keen on burning money.

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

Maybe, maybe not

---

On this we agree. Once the Primaries actually happen and we see votes, not just polls or new stories we will know how strong Trump really is. My fear is he wins the nomination and then the door slams leaving the GOP hustling to make up ground.

---

In 2016 everyone was certain that Trump had no chance of winning.