Netanyahu said "we are at war,"

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Wrecks Quan Dough
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In reply to Osodecentx • 1:22p, 11/7/23
Osodecentx said:
KaiBear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.


The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





The Palestinians have been offered a state multiple times. Have you been sleepwalking through the past three decades?
He knows.

But nothing is going to remove what his parents put in.
In 1948, Israel would have received 30% of the land and 0% of Jerusalem. Palestinians would have received 70% of the land and 100% of Jerusalem
In retrospect, maybe Jerry Jones should not have fired Jimmy Johnson.
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 1:22p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





I thought you were referring to the partition when you said "take other peoples land."
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Osodecentx
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In reply to KaiBear • 1:26p, 11/7/23
KaiBear said:
Osodecentx said:
KaiBear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.


The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





The Palestinians have been offered a state multiple times. Have you been sleepwalking through the past three decades?
He knows.

But nothing is going to remove what his parents put in.
In 1948, Israel would have received 30% of the land and 0% of Jerusalem. Palestinians would have received 70% of the land and 100% of Jerusalem
In 1540 native Americans owned 100% of the land and and the United States 0 %.
around 1000 BC Israel had 100% of the land
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to KaiBear • 1:46p, 11/7/23
KaiBear said:
Osodecentx said:
KaiBear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.


The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





The Palestinians have been offered a state multiple times. Have you been sleepwalking through the past three decades?
He knows.

But nothing is going to remove what his parents put in.
In 1948, Israel would have received 30% of the land and 0% of Jerusalem. Palestinians would have received 70% of the land and 100% of Jerusalem
In 1540 native Americans owned 100% of the land and and the United States 0 %.
That is another interesting point.

Native American (like Palestinian and Israeli) is a modern political/national identity that was created.

Indigenous tribal groups in the 1700s and 1800s did not think of themselves as being "Native American" and in fact were in endless conflict with other tribes from who they were attempting to drive off the land and take the resources from.

Just interesting point

History is far more complicated than modern liberal Academia and its "oppressor/oppressed" narrative


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Redbrickbear
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In reply to sombear • 1:52p, 11/7/23
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





I thought you were referring to the partition when you said "take other peoples land."

Obviously from the Arab perspective the British had no right to partition the land along the 1948 line in the first place....and the entire balfour declaration was illegitimate. (I don't hold that view)

I refer to the violence around the '48 war and the later wars post '67 events (like settler activity)

Palestinians and most the world community see that as land stealing.
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Osodecentx
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 2:04p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





I thought you were referring to the partition when you said "take other peoples land."

Obviously from the Arab perspective the British had no right to partition the land along the 1948 line in the first place....and the entire balfour declaration was illegitimate. (I don't hold that view)

I refer to the violence around the '48 war and the later wars post '67 events (like settler activity)

Palestinians and most the world community see that as land stealing.
Nitpicking, it was the UN that partitioned the land. The Balfour declaration was a betrayal of Arabs (my opinion).

My nitpicking doesn't really affect the point you make.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 2:23p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair



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Redbrickbear
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 2:38p, 11/7/23
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 3:02p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
Endless occupation in Gaza? They have been self-ruling since 2005. Israel left in 2005 and let them have it. They created a ****-hole. The truth is everything the Palestinians touch, they destroy. Gaza has beaches, a port, a friendly neighbor. They did nothing but buy rockets and build tunnels. No education, no economy. Sorry, this is on the Palestinians.
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 3:02p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





I thought you were referring to the partition when you said "take other peoples land."

Obviously from the Arab perspective the British had no right to partition the land along the 1948 line in the first place....and the entire balfour declaration was illegitimate. (I don't hold that view)

I refer to the violence around the '48 war and the later wars post '67 events (like settler activity)

Palestinians and most the world community see that as land stealing.
No, strong majorities support the division.
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 3:07p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
100% no. I want what Israel and most reasonable folks want. True peace assurances from Palestinians, and Arab countries allow more Palestinians. There are no other alternatives. And only after years of proven peace, Israel can then give back some settlements and cede total control to West Bank and Gaza.
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 3:09p, 11/7/23
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
Endless occupation in Gaza?

I said endless occupation of the West Bank

Obviously they pulled their 6,000 settlers out of Gaza in 2005...and the surrounded it with concrete walls, barbed wire, and military outposts, and 24-7 surveillance
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Redbrickbear
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In reply to sombear • 3:14p, 11/7/23
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
100% no. I want what Israel and most reasonable folks want. True peace assurances from Palestinians, and Arab countries allow more Palestinians. There are no other alternatives. And only after years of proven peace, Israel can then give back some settlements and cede total control to West Bank and Gaza.

That would be very nice to see.

Very unlikely to take place. Israeli politicians right now are floating the idea of just expelling the Gaza Palestinians to Europe and annexing the West Bank into Israel

[The gap between Israel's words and actions on the West Bank began changing in 2017, when officials in Netanyahu's then-government began discussing plans for unilateral annexation of the territory. That December, Netanyahu's ruling Likud party passed a resolution instructing its legislators to "pursue" full annexation of the West Bank.]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/08/israel-palestine-west-bank-annexation-netanyahu-smotrich-far-right/

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-annexation-west-bank-has-already-begun
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Cobretti
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4:00p, 11/7/23
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Osodecentx
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In reply to Cobretti • 4:17p, 11/7/23
Cobretti said:


Good for the senator
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sombear
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 6:41p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
100% no. I want what Israel and most reasonable folks want. True peace assurances from Palestinians, and Arab countries allow more Palestinians. There are no other alternatives. And only after years of proven peace, Israel can then give back some settlements and cede total control to West Bank and Gaza.

That would be very nice to see.

Very unlikely to take place. Israeli politicians right now are floating the idea of just expelling the Gaza Palestinians to Europe and annexing the West Bank into Israel

[The gap between Israel's words and actions on the West Bank began changing in 2017, when officials in Netanyahu's then-government began discussing plans for unilateral annexation of the territory. That December, Netanyahu's ruling Likud party passed a resolution instructing its legislators to "pursue" full annexation of the West Bank.]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/08/israel-palestine-west-bank-annexation-netanyahu-smotrich-far-right/

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-annexation-west-bank-has-already-begun
I've said from the beginning, Israel shares some of the blame in the larger conflict, and although I generally like Netanyahu, he no doubt has been reckless on occasion. But I do think his annexation talk was just that, talk. It was election year bluster followed by bargaining leverage for his deals with other mid east countries. I don't think he ever would have done it.

But, again, blame to go around. I continue to maintain, however, that Palestinians and Arab countries are far more to blame. They've never given peace a chance.

Hamas and other parties whose stated intent is destroy Israel have strong majority support. Israeli parties with comparative positions barely register.
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Harrison Bergeron
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 6:47p, 11/7/23
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
1. Jews are the indigenous people of Israel, so it is odd the folks usually obsessed with so-called indigenous people are the most anti-Jewish.

2. Many Arabs and Palestinians are very successful in Israel.

3. Palestinians can be citizens of Israel. Fun Fact: What percentage of Israel is Arab? What percentage of Palestine and the broader Arab world are Jewish?

4. Israel is an important ally. I am the first to acknowledge a strong bent of isolationism, but the Biden Administration's stroking of Iran catalyzed this attack.
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Harrison Bergeron
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In reply to sombear • 6:49p, 11/7/23
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
100% no. I want what Israel and most reasonable folks want. True peace assurances from Palestinians, and Arab countries allow more Palestinians. There are no other alternatives. And only after years of proven peace, Israel can then give back some settlements and cede total control to West Bank and Gaza.

That would be very nice to see.

Very unlikely to take place. Israeli politicians right now are floating the idea of just expelling the Gaza Palestinians to Europe and annexing the West Bank into Israel

[The gap between Israel's words and actions on the West Bank began changing in 2017, when officials in Netanyahu's then-government began discussing plans for unilateral annexation of the territory. That December, Netanyahu's ruling Likud party passed a resolution instructing its legislators to "pursue" full annexation of the West Bank.]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/08/israel-palestine-west-bank-annexation-netanyahu-smotrich-far-right/

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-annexation-west-bank-has-already-begun
I've said from the beginning, Israel shares some of the blame in the larger conflict, and although I generally like Netanyahu, he no doubt has been reckless on occasion. But I do think his annexation talk was just that, talk. It was election year bluster followed by bargaining leverage for his deals with other mid east countries. I don't think he ever would have done it.

But, again, blame to go around. I continue to maintain, however, that Palestinians and Arab countries are far more to blame. They've never given peace a chance.

Hamas and other parties whose stated intent is destroy Israel have strong majority support. Israeli parties with comparative positions barely register.
How many wars did Israel launch against an Arab nation?
How many wars did an Arab nation launch against Israel?

The "both sides" argument is utter b.s. Israel is calling to be left alone. Palestine is calling for the genocide of Jews.
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 7:22p, 11/7/23
FLBear5630 said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
KaiBear said:


War is a *****, always has been, and Americans have zero right to pontificate on Israeli revenge.

Some people are surprised that Western powers when sufficiently roused will fight a war of annihilation and demand your unconditional surrender before they stop killing your people and tearing up your stuff. Most living Europeans and Americans, despite suffering horrific attacks themselves, have not seen such an objective or resolve. It is a new concept in practice.
Not since Japan and Germany...

No one wants another total war because WWII was so destructive. That's why Europe has so many pacifists. It's been ingrained for generations. Unfortunately, it's also a weakness. As the Romans said: if you want peace, prepare for war. During the ColdWar, the US protected Europe so they focused on becoming more socialist & coddling their people. They don't have much concept of how to fight to win.
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In reply to historian • 7:29p, 11/7/23
historian said:
FLBear5630 said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
KaiBear said:


War is a *****, always has been, and Americans have zero right to pontificate on Israeli revenge.

Some people are surprised that Western powers when sufficiently roused will fight a war of annihilation and demand your unconditional surrender before they stop killing your people and tearing up your stuff. Most living Europeans and Americans, despite suffering horrific attacks themselves, have not seen such an objective or resolve. It is a new concept in practice.
Not since Japan and Germany...

No one wants another total war because WWII was so destructive. That's why Europe has so many pacifists. It's been ingrained for generations. Unfortunately, it's also a weakness. As the Romans said: if you want peace, prepare for war. During the ColdWar, the US protected Europe so they focused on becoming more socialist & coddling their people. They don't have much concept of how to fight to win.


70+ million dead within 30 years will do that to people.

[The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I, was around 40 million. There were 20 million deaths and 21 million wounded.]

[Some 75 million people died in World War II, including about 25 million military personnel and 40+ million civilians]

The USA came out of both wars barely scratched….and as the greatest super power on earth…we should not so quickly tell other people on the other side of world to be so enthusiastic about war.

The world wars basically destroyed the empires and great nations of Europe…while they were great for us
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In reply to sombear • 7:38p, 11/7/23
Israel didn't take someone else's land. They reclaimed their land, given them by God.

The Palestinians were not a self-governing society before Israel was established in 1948. The were a people in the British Empire.

Before the British it was part of the Ottoman Empire. They lost WWI.

Before the Ottomans, the land was part of the Byzantine Empire which finally collapsed in 1453.

The Byzantine Empire was formerly part of the Roman Empire but separated when the western empire fell in the 4th century.

Before the Romans it was the Greeks. Alexander the Great conquered the land an died in 323 BC. When he died, his generals carved up his empire and ruled for some time after. The Jews did free themselves of Greek rule fir a brief time. Then the Romans came.

When Alexander the Great conquered the region, he destroyed the Persian Empire.

The Persians conquered the Babylonian Empire and allowed the Jewish exiles to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple & the walls. Read the books of Ezra & Nehemiah. Daniel's prophecies also have some relevance.

The Babylonians conquered the southern kingdom of Judah in the 6th century BC (Assyria had already destroyed Israel to the north).

The last time the Holy Land was self-governed was 2500 years ago before Nebuchadnezzar ended that (except the brief period betweee Ed n the Greeks & Romans).

As for the Palestinians, it was never their land. They just lived there for a time. They are Arabs & easily could have settled in any of the neighboring Arab countries for the last 70 years. Except those countries don't want them because the are disruptive & always cause problems. They are their own worst enemies.

And none of their problems are the fault of the Jews or will be solved if these modern Nazis get their dream of another Holocaust.
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 7:42p, 11/7/23
The "West Bank" is actually Judea & Samaria.
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In reply to Cobretti • 7:45p, 11/7/23
Give credit where credit is due: Sen Fetterman has shown more courage & fortitude on behalf of our ally Israel than most Democrats, including Joe Biden. Since Obama is likely the puppet master it makes some sense: he is a notorious antisemitism & even interfered in one of their elections.
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 7:48p, 11/7/23
Yes, the huge death toll is the main reason. I totally understand why they did it but it still was foolish, as was their decision for decades to allow millions of people to immigrate to their countries without any cultural affinity and no real attempt at assimilation. It's quite possible that those countries have committed suicide and will eventually succumb to the demographic realities. Europe might even become a new caliphate, as many Muslims dream about.
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sombear
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In reply to Harrison Bergeron • 10:30p, 11/7/23
Harrison Bergeron said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
100% no. I want what Israel and most reasonable folks want. True peace assurances from Palestinians, and Arab countries allow more Palestinians. There are no other alternatives. And only after years of proven peace, Israel can then give back some settlements and cede total control to West Bank and Gaza.

That would be very nice to see.

Very unlikely to take place. Israeli politicians right now are floating the idea of just expelling the Gaza Palestinians to Europe and annexing the West Bank into Israel

[The gap between Israel's words and actions on the West Bank began changing in 2017, when officials in Netanyahu's then-government began discussing plans for unilateral annexation of the territory. That December, Netanyahu's ruling Likud party passed a resolution instructing its legislators to "pursue" full annexation of the West Bank.]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/08/israel-palestine-west-bank-annexation-netanyahu-smotrich-far-right/

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-annexation-west-bank-has-already-begun
I've said from the beginning, Israel shares some of the blame in the larger conflict, and although I generally like Netanyahu, he no doubt has been reckless on occasion. But I do think his annexation talk was just that, talk. It was election year bluster followed by bargaining leverage for his deals with other mid east countries. I don't think he ever would have done it.

But, again, blame to go around. I continue to maintain, however, that Palestinians and Arab countries are far more to blame. They've never given peace a chance.

Hamas and other parties whose stated intent is destroy Israel have strong majority support. Israeli parties with comparative positions barely register.
How many wars did Israel launch against an Arab nation?
How many wars did an Arab nation launch against Israel?

The "both sides" argument is utter b.s. Israel is calling to be left alone. Palestine is calling for the genocide of Jews.


So I'm clear, nothing Israel has done justifies Palestinian attacks. But I do blame Israel for expanding settlements.
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In reply to sombear • 10:36p, 11/7/23
Except Israel expanded settlements in their own country. In a free country, one has the right to buy land and live anywhere one wishes. Foreigners have no business saying otherwise.

Yeah, I know it's not recognized by the "international community" but too many of those countries either do not recognize Israel's right to exist, are too often blatantly antisemitism, or tolerate antisemitism (even the violent kind) in their country. Often all three. Israel has no reason to pay attention to their racist drivel. The UN & other international organizations are just as bad. The UN has Iran on their Human Rights Commission!
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In reply to historian • 11:32p, 11/7/23
historian said:
Except Israel expanded settlements in their own country. In a free country, one has the right to buy land and live anywhere one wishes. Foreigners have no business saying otherwise.

Yeah, I know it's not recognized by the "international community" but too many of those countries either do not recognize Israel's right to exist, are too often blatantly antisemitism..


1. The West Bank does not belong to Israel…so they have no right to place 600,000 settlers there.

2. Almost all countries on earth oppose those settler expansions. And yet many of those counties who oppose settler activity have no problem recognizing Israel and trading with Israel and being friendly with Israel.

The UK, France, Japan, Canada….none anti-Semitic…all friendly with Israel…yet all oppose the settlements













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In reply to Redbrickbear • 12:40a, 11/8/23
There is a lot of antisemitism in the world as has always been the case (read Esther). You provided some solid evidence. If everyone agrees on a lie, does that make it true? No.

Israel won Judea & Samaria in the 6 Day War. Another war in which they faced enemies on all sides determined to annihilate them. It is theirs even if no one else acknowledges the fact. Moreover, they have managed to defend that claim on the ground ever since, 56 years later.

On a side note, Israel's victory over all their enemies in only SIX DAYS while overwhelmingly outnumbered & outgunned is pretty clear indication of divine intervention. Only a fool would refuse to see that.
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Harrison Bergeron
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 1:15a, 11/8/23
Redbrickbear said:
FLBear5630 said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
Wrecks Quan Dough said:
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





And not a single one of them launched a rocket or strapped a bomb vest on themselves to explode themselves around unsuspecting Gazans.


Correct…They just vote for a government that will do it for them.

While keeping 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank under the military boot and endless occupation
No, the Palestinians vote for that sort of government. I do not think that ever before in the history of the world have there been a people who, as an identifiable people group, remained refugees for 3 consecutive generations. The Jews were liquidated and forced out of Europe and became successful in America and Israel in one generation. The Vietnamese and Cubans come here on boats and are successful in one generation. Indians come here and are successful in one generation.

You might think that there is incentive, through the global government welfare received by the PA and Hamas, to perpetuate the victim status of their people.

You seem to be lumping a lot of things together.

1. Did Jews getting massacred into Europe entitled them to take other peoples land? The Armenians getting slaughter by the Turks did not entitle them move somewhere else to take some other land for their own. (Either way....Israel was established by international agreement...so it exists now as a sovereign state and that has to be acknowledged)

2. Vietnamese and Cubans coming to American and being successful is because American Whites already created a extremely successful nation and are nice enough/kind enough to allow foreign peoples in to share in the wealth, civil government, lawful courts, protection of property, etc. that already exist here. If you are an ethnic/racial group that can not thrive in America you have some serious internal problems.

3. The Local Arabs around the region and the Israelis have never let the Palestinians become citizens (which of course opens up another discussion about why the local Arab States have never allowed that...or why Israel has not allowed that since racial Diversity is Strength or at least that is what we are constantly told)

4. None of these historic or present issues between the Israelis and the Palestinians make it our problem. Our elected leaders in Congress should stay out of this ethnic/racial conflict
The threshold flaw here is that they did not "take other peoples land." That land had changed hands/populations numerous times and recently had been British, Jordan land, etc. Jews lived there historically (arguably first) and well into the 20th Century, despite being forced out by Palestinians/Arabs.

One can argue that Jews should not have been given any land, but that is a different argument entirely, and not many folks admit adopting it. A strong majority believes the partition was fair and just, and Israel accepted it.

Its a semantic argument and one that is not actually that interesting.

Should the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe have come to the Levant to try and establish a State and pushed out the Arabs? Should the Mizrahi Jews of the middle east have been forced out from their land by other Arabs to move to Israel? etc.

What's done is done.

My point is that talking about the Holocaust or the Nakba is no longer really relevant (except for emotional reasons). Its been 75 years since those events and 3 generations of people have been born on both sides.

The world community has coalesced around a very reasonable position that the land that should be divided up between the Israelis and the Palestinians and that both should have States now.





They had it. It was very fair




Not accepting the '48 partition and losing a war against the Israelis was a major mistake...I have never said anything else...ok fair enough.

But today in 2023 what is supposed to be done with the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza that Israel has surrounded by concrete walls/barbed wire/military forts and the 3.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank they have under endless military occupation?

I get the feeling you guys want to come out and say "genocide them" or "ethnically cleanse the land of them" but for some reason yall are a little sheepish about coming out and saying it.
Follow our lead - open the border of every Arab-majority country and let each "Palestinian" decide where he/she/it wants to move and have that Arab country fund millions in social services for the "Palestinian" to turn against the country that gave it everything.
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Realitybites
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In reply to KaiBear • 4:09a, 11/8/23
KaiBear said:
Anyone who was alive during 9-11 knows what revenge is all about.

But when it involves Jews some folks magically aquire selective amnesia.


My interest in this is looking out for America's best interests, not Israel's. Avoiding a third world war is in our best interest. Funding foreign nations when our debt to gdp ratio approaches Greece is not. Having our soldiers die in a conflict in the middle east is not.

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whiterock
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In reply to Redbrickbear • 6:03a, 11/8/23
Redbrickbear said:
sombear said:
Realitybites said:
sombear said:
Have you visited Israel?

Christians are treated amazingly well in every respect.


I have. One of the regrets I have is that at the time I went with an Evangelical group that skipped the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolorosa. The automatic elevators (they set them to run continuously, stopping on every floor) on the Sabbath were interesting, because Jews aren't supposed to do the work of pressing an elevator button on the sabbath. There are things you see - like off duty IDF in civilian clothes wandering around with their battle rifles - that you definitely don't see here. Oh, and you can't get a Cheeseburger because it violates Jewish dietary law.

Christian pilgrims do spend a good bit of money in Israel. In general, Secular Jews have a generally favorable disposition to Christian pilgrims and treat us well. Religious Jews on the other hand, well, you get to see why the Pharisee avoided the Samaritan.

Do a little research into what the Talmud teaches about Jesus vs the Koran. This is not an endorsement of either but it gives you some insight into what separates the thee Abrahamic religions.
Yes, all kinds of interesting experiences in Israel.

I do think you're painting religious jews with a broad brush. You seem to have considerable knowledge in this area, and there is tremendous diversity among religious jews. I've spent a lot of time with religious jews, including living and working in the most Orthodox area in a major metro area. I've not had one negative experience.

I'm far from a religious scholar, but I know enough to know that Talmud references to Jesus are hotly debated to this day. But, regardless, I could care less. By definition, religions believe that other religions are full of it . . . .


There are Hardi Jews that don't even believe in the State of Israel…aka they think the Torah prevents them from creating a State until the coming of the messiah.

And then there are secular Jews who are basically full on with blood lust for wiping out their racial enemies.

It's certainly complicated over there





That first twitter link reminds me of the old Toby Keith line: "...,'cause we'll put a boot in yer ass, it's the American way....."

Totally expected, if not appropriate, for a nation attacked so grievously to react that way.....
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7:06a, 11/8/23
Jihad Through The Centuries

A good visual map on the spread of Islam through jihad.
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KaiBear
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In reply to Realitybites • 7:39a, 11/8/23
Realitybites said:
Jihad Through The Centuries

A good visual map on the spread of Islam through jihad.
Excellent video.

One MILLION people enslaved by the Muslims .

Thats a fact 99% of Americans have zero knowledge of.

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ShooterTX
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In reply to Realitybites • 6:56a, 11/9/23
Realitybites said:
Jihad Through The Centuries

A good visual map on the spread of Islam through jihad.


It's amazing how many people see the Jews as a threat, yet they have no idea that Islam has been at war with the west for over a thousand years. Islam hates the west. There can never be peace with Islam. It is a violent and evil religion that is dedicated to the domination of Christians, Jews and other non-muslims.
Allowing millions of these people into our nation is suicide. We can see it happening with the thousands of pro-hamas demonstrations in our cities.
We must Deport them all immediately, starting with Talib and Ohmar.
This is about survival.
ShooterTX
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