whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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GrowlTowel said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.
• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)
• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought ".

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

The simple fact of the matter is that a functioning government does not prosecute the opposition party for process crimes. Merely having the documents (which I believe is all that is alleged) as opposed to using them for criminal purposes (or even shady political purposes), is not a crime that should cast the US into banana republic style politics.

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I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

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How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

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Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

---

Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.

• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)

• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation
Yes, but you're making the wrong argument. It's not the thought. It's the timeline. Biden was VPOTUS or Senator when the classified documents in question were carried to his personal home/office. He had no authority to declassify anything at that time, for any reason, by any act/thought. The only argument he has for escaping the espionage act is that he, by virtue of getting elected, gained an ability to ex post facto declassify them. Yes, he could argue that he "thought" them into declassified status AFTER BEING ELECTED, but does not that defense clearly support Trumps claims about "thought"?

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought."
Of course! No one would ever propose that a POTUS could be charged with carrying classified records to his residence, to his personal residence, in his personal car, on a hunting trip in Texas, on a shopping trip with Melania (because any such act would be presumed to be covered by originating authority). Same for showing a classified record to anyone, a foreign dignitary, a businessman of any nationality, a member of the press.....to accomplish whatever policy aime he saw fit. Trump, as POTUS, had the discretion to dispose of the records as he determined beneficial. NONE of that is contentious. Always assumed to have been so. And a federal court has recently ruled that such power extend to deeming presidential materials to be personal records to be taken with after leaving office for retention as personal files. (Clinton sock drawer) So it's hardly outlandish for Trump to argue that his decision (as POTUS) to decide that these documents were to be private records for retention at MAL after leaving office is within the realm of Presidential powers. Certainly it is not a criminal issue prosecutable under the Espionage Act. DOJ is wrong on the law here, but what's really outrageous is the choice to prosecute rather than litigate. DOJ could have asked a court to rule whether the sock drawer ruling applied to classified materials. If the court ruled against Trump, it could have issued the order for FBI to go get them. Problem solved.

But the documents were not the problem. TRUMP was the problem. He had to be destroyed. So they tossed the idea that the dispute was an issue about the limits of presidential powers, and decided to prosecute him for espionage. That is an outrageous politicization of prosecution, which would stand as a horrible precedent for every future POTUS to use against his political opponents.

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

No. Show me where the law encumbers a POTUS with any requirement for prior or subsequent action to achieve or effect declassification. There is none. Because the person who writes the orders for how all such things are to occur is the President of the United States. Any deviation he/she might make from policies they previously issued are presumed to be new policies. A POTUS cannot commit a security violation. IF the public does not like the way he/she handles classified records, they can vote him/her out of office.

---

Then Biden cannot commit a security violation because he "thought" the Obama docs were declassified on Jan 21

This is a ridiculous legal argument. Are Trump's lawyers still pleading this? If not, why not?

---

It's a ridiculous argument YOU made, not me.

---

I have seen two people making the "Trump thought it, therefore it is" argument. Those 2? Trump and you.
It is a ridiculous argument.

Are Trump's lawyers pleading this before a court anywhere?

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.

• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)

• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation
Yes, but you're making the wrong argument. It's not the thought. It's the timeline. Biden was VPOTUS or Senator when the classified documents in question were carried to his personal home/office. He had no authority to declassify anything at that time, for any reason, by any act/thought. The only argument he has for escaping the espionage act is that he, by virtue of getting elected, gained an ability to ex post facto declassify them. Yes, he could argue that he "thought" them into declassified status AFTER BEING ELECTED, but does not that defense clearly support Trumps claims about "thought"?

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought."
Of course! No one would ever propose that a POTUS could be charged with carrying classified records to his residence, to his personal residence, in his personal car, on a hunting trip in Texas, on a shopping trip with Melania (because any such act would be presumed to be covered by originating authority). Same for showing a classified record to anyone, a foreign dignitary, a businessman of any nationality, a member of the press.....to accomplish whatever policy aime he saw fit. Trump, as POTUS, had the discretion to dispose of the records as he determined beneficial. NONE of that is contentious. Always assumed to have been so. And a federal court has recently ruled that such power extend to deeming presidential materials to be personal records to be taken with after leaving office for retention as personal files. (Clinton sock drawer) So it's hardly outlandish for Trump to argue that his decision (as POTUS) to decide that these documents were to be private records for retention at MAL after leaving office is within the realm of Presidential powers. Certainly it is not a criminal issue prosecutable under the Espionage Act. DOJ is wrong on the law here, but what's really outrageous is the choice to prosecute rather than litigate. DOJ could have asked a court to rule whether the sock drawer ruling applied to classified materials. If the court ruled against Trump, it could have issued the order for FBI to go get them. Problem solved.

But the documents were not the problem. TRUMP was the problem. He had to be destroyed. So they tossed the idea that the dispute was an issue about the limits of presidential powers, and decided to prosecute him for espionage. That is an outrageous politicization of prosecution, which would stand as a horrible precedent for every future POTUS to use against his political opponents.

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

No. Show me where the law encumbers a POTUS with any requirement for prior or subsequent action to achieve or effect declassification. There is none. Because the person who writes the orders for how all such things are to occur is the President of the United States. Any deviation he/she might make from policies they previously issued are presumed to be new policies. A POTUS cannot commit a security violation. IF the public does not like the way he/she handles classified records, they can vote him/her out of office.

---

Then Biden cannot commit a security violation because he "thought" the Obama docs were declassified on Jan 21

This is a ridiculous legal argument. Are Trump's lawyers still pleading this? If not, why not?

---

It's a ridiculous argument YOU made, not me.

---

I have seen two people making the "Trump thought it, therefore it is" argument. Those 2? Trump and you.
It is a ridiculous argument.

Are Trump's lawyers pleading this before a court anywhere?

---

Dude, you can preach that all you want, but it is a fact that ALL classification authority flows from POTUS.

The argument you are making is as inventive as insisting that it is possible for God to commit a sin.

When it comes to classified materials, there is no precedent for a POTUS having any limitations or requirements or prerequisites or an kind of qualifiers whatsoever for their disposition of classified materials. If they blurt out something by mistake, or accidentally take a document somewhere it shouldn't be, it is presumed to be within his powers to have done so. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. All such rules on handling of classification are delegatory from the POTUS, so any deviation from established protocol is presumed to be an authorized deviation. That is done so to allow POTUS to act, with discretion, as he/she sees fit.

ZERO chance Scotus is going to side with prosecution on the removal of the materials in question, as they were done while Trump was still POTUS. Only grounds that could possibly be up for consideration would be the retention. And THAT is a civil matter concerning the limits of presidential powers. The sock drawer ruling is a major hurdle for the prosecution.

DOJ could have, and should have, pursued all of this as a civil matter. And were their concerns purely about the documents and precedents for the future, they would have. But they didn't because the protection of classified material has nothing to do with this prosecution. They chose to pursue it as a criminal matter purely for the purposes of political advantage. But, you like the political advantage it gives you, for your own political agenda (defeating Trump). Feeds your authoritarian tendencies. But that will turn on you like a pet scorpion, friend. And you will squeal, squeal.

whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.
• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)
• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation
Yes, but you're making the wrong argument. It's not the thought. It's the timeline. Biden was VPOTUS or Senator when the classified documents in question were carried to his personal home/office. He had no authority to declassify anything at that time, for any reason, by any act/thought. The only argument he has for escaping the espionage act is that he, by virtue of getting elected, gained an ability to ex post facto declassify them. Yes, he could argue that he "thought" them into declassified status AFTER BEING ELECTED, but does not that defense clearly support Trumps claims about "thought"?

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought."
Of course! No one would ever propose that a POTUS could be charged with carrying classified records to his residence, to his personal residence, in his personal car, on a hunting trip in Texas, on a shopping trip with Melania (because any such act would be presumed to be covered by originating authority). Same for showing a classified record to anyone, a foreign dignitary, a businessman of any nationality, a member of the press.....to accomplish whatever policy aime he saw fit. Trump, as POTUS, had the discretion to dispose of the records as he determined beneficial. NONE of that is contentious. Always assumed to have been so. And a federal court has recently ruled that such power extend to deeming presidential materials to be personal records to be taken with after leaving office for retention as personal files. (Clinton sock drawer) So it's hardly outlandish for Trump to argue that his decision (as POTUS) to decide that these documents were to be private records for retention at MAL after leaving office is within the realm of Presidential powers. Certainly it is not a criminal issue prosecutable under the Espionage Act. DOJ is wrong on the law here, but what's really outrageous is the choice to prosecute rather than litigate. DOJ could have asked a court to rule whether the sock drawer ruling applied to classified materials. If the court ruled against Trump, it could have issued the order for FBI to go get them. Problem solved.

But the documents were not the problem. TRUMP was the problem. He had to be destroyed. So they tossed the idea that the dispute was an issue about the limits of presidential powers, and decided to prosecute him for espionage. That is an outrageous politicization of prosecution, which would stand as a horrible precedent for every future POTUS to use against his political opponents.

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

No. Show me where the law encumbers a POTUS with any requirement for prior or subsequent action to achieve or effect declassification. There is none. Because the person who writes the orders for how all such things are to occur is the President of the United States. Any deviation he/she might make from policies they previously issued are presumed to be new policies. A POTUS cannot commit a security violation. IF the public does not like the way he/she handles classified records, they can vote him/her out of office.

---

Then Biden cannot commit a security violation because he "thought" the Obama docs were declassified on Jan 21

This is a ridiculous legal argument. Are Trump's lawyers still pleading this? If not, why not?

---

It's a ridiculous argument YOU made, not me.

---

I have seen two people making the "Trump thought it, therefore it is" argument. Those 2? Trump and you.
It is a ridiculous argument.

Are Trump's lawyers pleading this before a court anywhere?

---

Dude, you can preach that all you want, but it is a fact that ALL classification authority flows from POTUS.

The argument you are making is as inventive as insisting that it is possible for God to commit a sin.

When it comes to classified materials, there is no precedent for a POTUS having any limitations or requirements or prerequisites or an kind of qualifiers whatsoever for their disposition of classified materials. If they blurt out something by mistake, or accidentally take a document somewhere it shouldn't be, it is presumed to be within his powers to have done so. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. All such rules on handling of classification are delegatory from the POTUS, so any deviation from established protocol is presumed to be an authorized deviation. That is done so to allow POTUS to act, with discretion, as he/she sees fit.

ZERO chance Scotus is going to side with prosecution on the removal of the materials in question, as they were done while Trump was still POTUS. Only grounds that could possibly be up for consideration would be the retention. And THAT is a civil matter concerning the limits of presidential powers. The sock drawer ruling is a major hurdle for the prosecution.

DOJ could have, and should have, pursued all of this as a civil matter. And were their concerns purely about the documents and precedents for the future, they would have. But they didn't because the protection of classified material has nothing to do with this prosecution. They chose to pursue it as a criminal matter purely for the purposes of political advantage. But, you like the political advantage it gives you, for your own political agenda (defeating Trump). Feeds your authoritarian tendencies. But that will turn on you like a pet scorpion, friend. And you will squeal, squeal.

---

POTUS can declassify anything he wants. Former POTUS can't

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.

• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)

• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought ".

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

The simple fact of the matter is that a functioning government does not prosecute the opposition party for process crimes. Merely having the documents (which I believe is all that is alleged) as opposed to using them for criminal purposes (or even shady political purposes), is not a crime that should cast the US into banana republic style politics.

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.

• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)

• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought ".

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

The simple fact of the matter is that a functioning government does not prosecute the opposition party for process crimes. Merely having the documents (which I believe is all that is alleged) as opposed to using them for criminal purposes (or even shady political purposes), is not a crime that should cast the US into banana republic style politics.

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

No

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Concept: the originating authority cannot be encumbered. To do so subordinates that authority to another,

---

Yeah, it was I can do it. If I think about it on the way to the toilet it is declassified, to "as I understand it". You don't see a backing off the position in that????

Originating authority cannot be encumbered, but the originating authority has to identify what is being declassified before it is declassified.
he can do so by simply revealing it, verbally or manually, without any prior action required. All Presidents have done so, frequently.
It can't be after the fact and the subordinates have to know what is being declassified. Without ANY documentation there is no way to prove it. He is screwed. Unless, there is document control. With your extensive knowledge of how this works, you are aware of document control? Try this to refresh your memory.
I had to worry about document control.....the officers under my command had to worry about document control....the officers above me had to worry about document control......because all of us had derivative authority to originate, possess, and use classified information derivative of POTUS, who has no such encumberance. No one else has the power to look at POTUS and say "oh, sir, you cannot do that!" because to do so would subordinate originating authority.

DoDM 5200.01 Vol 1, "DoD Information Security Program: Overview, Classification, and Declassification," February 24, 2012, Incorporating Change 2 on July 28, 2020 (whs.mil)

There are set requirements for how this happens. Trump just deciding to go to the Residence and thinking this is declassified is not part of this process. As I said, if there is no paper trail, which I believe there is not due to where we are, he is going to be found guilty. What that entails, who knows. But, to say he can't be encumbered is an oversimplification. For example,
No. There is no requirement that POTUS must fill out any forms, for either prior approval or to subsequently perfect an act. he/she may dispose at discretion. ALL procedures for classification, use, declassification flow from POTUS originating authority. Any deviations from protocols are presumed to be changes in protocols. Has always been so.

• there are Presidential Memorandum dictating how this all occurs, did he rescind them before he determined what was declassified?
See above. Doesn't matter. Deviations from his instructed procedures are always presumed to be changes in procedure.

• The documents generated in his 4 years may be found to be that he has the right to just declass. But anything originating from other Presidents he did not.
Nope. He may declassify or classify anything, regardless of what a predecessor or successor chose to do. Obama classifying something does not limit Trump's declassification of it. Similarly, Biden's classification of something Trump declassified is also binding. (and in fact, that was done in this particular case.....)

• Was anything he declassified determined by NARA and the current administration to make the securing the US more difficult? That is not his call, but NARA and the current administration.
NARA cannot determine anything without superseding POTUS originating authority! They cannot say "you did not perfect your declassification" for reasons outlined above.

You worked in MI in the military. I worked 3 years in JAG, it is not as open shut as you would like to believe.

---

A President CANNOT commit a security violation.

The weakness in your analysis is, at every turn, an implicit assumption that a President has no more latitude than a Sergeant, Lieutenant, General, etc....that a POTUS must obey "the rules." Problem is, POTUS.....IS the rules. His/her actions require no prior approvals or process. They may act on discretion, and those actions are both dispositive and indicative.

---

Then the files in Biden's garage (from Obama era) were ex post facto declassified when Joe "thought" about it after Jan 20, 2021?
Ridiculous
Are Trump's lawyers even asserting the "mere thinking = declassification" defense?

---

No. Biden was not POTUS when he took those files to his garage, so he did not have original authority at that time. Now, he could have, solely upon his own determination, declassified them after his inauguration. Whether he would have had to execute a document to do so, or simply tell an investigator "those are now declassified" when asked, is within the realm of the argument Trump is making. But that would not have had the ex post facto effect you allege.

---

But you said "A President CANNOT commit a security violation.".

Now you are adding another requirement other than "I thought it, therefore it is."

---

Nope. Biden was not POTUS when he committed the security violation.

---

I'm arguing that it takes more than mere thought, actually a claim with nothing more, to declassify retroactively. So I think Biden's are a violation

You're claiming that classified records kept at Mar. Lago can't be a violation because of a previously undisclosed "thought ".

The records Biden had in the garage from the Obama era could have been declassified by mere thought when Biden became POTUS , a ludicrous claim but that is your defense of Trump

It takes more than mere thought & nothing else.

---

The simple fact of the matter is that a functioning government does not prosecute the opposition party for process crimes. Merely having the documents (which I believe is all that is alleged) as opposed to using them for criminal purposes (or even shady political purposes), is not a crime that should cast the US into banana republic style politics.

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

Do you have the newest Trump NFT?

The Mugshot Collection

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Donald Trump releases new 'Mugshot' NFT collection. pic.twitter.com/NUUhlftsf6

— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) December 12, 2023

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

Do you have the newest Trump NFT?

The Mugshot Collection

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Donald Trump releases new 'Mugshot' NFT collection. pic.twitter.com/NUUhlftsf6

— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) December 12, 2023

---

MF'er has gone from -21 to +5 with independents in almost exactly 12 months.

What could your analysis possibly be missing?

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

Do you have the newest Trump NFT?

The Mugshot Collection

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Donald Trump releases new 'Mugshot' NFT collection. pic.twitter.com/NUUhlftsf6

— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) December 12, 2023

---

MF'er has gone from -21 to +5 with independents in almost exactly 12 months.

What could your analysis possibly be missing?

---

My analysis of Trump's mugshot NFT?

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

Do you have the newest Trump NFT?

The Mugshot Collection

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Donald Trump releases new 'Mugshot' NFT collection. pic.twitter.com/NUUhlftsf6

— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) December 12, 2023

---

MF'er has gone from -21 to +5 with independents in almost exactly 12 months.

What could your analysis possibly be missing?

---

My analysis of Trump's mugshot NFT?

---

Seems quite clear that it's worked far, far better than you assessed....

whiterock said:

---

more to the point of the thread:

structural anti-semitism of islam

Very powerful. Worth a few minutes of your time. https://t.co/oYWrAZl61m

— Bill Ackman (@BillAckman) December 10, 2023

---

Here, ya go, Trey....

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

Do you have the newest Trump NFT?

The Mugshot Collection

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Donald Trump releases new 'Mugshot' NFT collection. pic.twitter.com/NUUhlftsf6

— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) December 12, 2023

---

MF'er has gone from -21 to +5 with independents in almost exactly 12 months.

What could your analysis possibly be missing?

---

LOL

Oh, I dunno.

Maybe conviction or two ?

His age ?

Trumps habit of saying self destructive things ?

The absolute revulsion those outside his base feel toward the guy ?

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

I agree. What do you think when Trump says he will get even with government officials, especially his former staff?

---

How, exactly, would you describe the accountability due to the people who abuse their official powers the way this admin is doing?

---

Trump wants to get even with people HE appointed during his presidency because they told the truth

---

You mean the way the Democrats got even with Gen. Flynn for changing parties?

---

Do you have the newest Trump NFT?

The Mugshot Collection

JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Donald Trump releases new 'Mugshot' NFT collection. pic.twitter.com/NUUhlftsf6

— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) December 12, 2023

---

MF'er has gone from -21 to +5 with independents in almost exactly 12 months.

What could your analysis possibly be missing?

---

LOL

Oh, I dunno.

Maybe conviction or two ?

His age ?

Trumps habit of saying self destructive things ?

The absolute revulsion those outside his base feel toward the guy ?

---

LOL all I did was point out that none of that has bothered 26-points of the sample nearly as much as it has his critics.

if the prospect of a conviction is so inconsequential, how could the conviction itself be transformative?

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

Okay. I'll play. What is stupid? Can you explicate a position? I'll hang up and listen..

---

Chick is going to need to look up the meaning of explicate.

---

Once again being female is an insult on sicem. I forget how backwards you zealots are sometimes.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Masks were supposed to reduce the distance a person spread the disease, not protect you from getting the disease.
Masks save lives: Here's what you need to know - Harvard Health

The changing of the reasons things were done during the Pandemic is amazing. I guess if your mission is to undermine the Govt, it makes sense.

• We quarantined to ensure hospitals didn't get overwhelmed, not to stop people from getting the disease.
• Inoculations were to reduce the severity of the disease, not prevent it. It was supposed to keep you from ending up in a hospital.
• Masks reduce the distance the disease is spread, protecting others not the person wearing the mask.
• The States made the determinations on how they responded, not the President. Each State, as the Constitution dictates, handled the Pandemic as they saw fit. The Fed made resources available, I was on such calls.

The changing of what happened to back up this narrative that the Deep State is controlling us is getting out of hand.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Masks were supposed to reduce the distance a person spread the disease, not protect you from getting the disease.
Masks save lives: Here's what you need to know - Harvard Health

The changing of the reasons things were done during the Pandemic is amazing. I guess if your mission is to undermine the Govt, it makes sense.

• We quarantined to ensure hospitals didn't get overwhelmed, not to stop people from getting the disease.
• Inoculations were to reduce the severity of the disease, not prevent it. It was supposed to keep you from ending up in a hospital.
• Masks reduce the distance the disease is spread, protecting others not the person wearing the mask.
• The States made the determinations on how they responded, not the President. Each State, as the Constitution dictates, handled the Pandemic as they saw fit. The Fed made resources available, I was on such calls.

The changing of what happened to back up this narrative that the Deep State is controlling us is getting out of hand.

---

Nobody is changing any narrative. Forcing people to wear a mask into a restaurant only to take it off when they sit down is f'ing ridiculous and those of us who said so were called murderers. I actually had some dumb boomer tell me I was a bad person bc I wouldnt wear a mask into a restaurant and instead opted to stand outside to wait for a patio table. Those masks didnt do anything to prevent covid and the whole thing was just an exercise in govt control. Hell, I had a post taken down off of next door for recommending people should take vitamin D. Covid was the biggest psyop of our time.

muddybrazos said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Masks were supposed to reduce the distance a person spread the disease, not protect you from getting the disease.
Masks save lives: Here's what you need to know - Harvard Health

The changing of the reasons things were done during the Pandemic is amazing. I guess if your mission is to undermine the Govt, it makes sense.

• We quarantined to ensure hospitals didn't get overwhelmed, not to stop people from getting the disease.
• Inoculations were to reduce the severity of the disease, not prevent it. It was supposed to keep you from ending up in a hospital.
• Masks reduce the distance the disease is spread, protecting others not the person wearing the mask.
• The States made the determinations on how they responded, not the President. Each State, as the Constitution dictates, handled the Pandemic as they saw fit. The Fed made resources available, I was on such calls.

The changing of what happened to back up this narrative that the Deep State is controlling us is getting out of hand.

---

Nobody is changing any narrative. Forcing people to wear a mask into a restaurant only to take it off when they sit down is f'ing ridiculous and those of us who said so were called murderers. I actually had some dumb boomer tell me I was a bad person bc I wouldnt wear a mask into a restaurant and instead opted to stand outside to wait for a patio table. Those masks didnt do anything to prevent covid and the whole thing was just an exercise in govt control. Hell, I had a post taken down off of next door for recommending people should take vitamin D. Covid was the biggest psyop of our time.

---

You guys tend to mix the action with people's reactions.

Wearing a mask through a group of tables until you get to your table is not stupid. It is courteous to the people around you. I realize you put little to no value on those little niceties that society used to take for granted. Now it is an infringement on your MF-ing rights and not only won't you wear a mask but if you want to do deep breathing exercises in the restaurant it is your right to do so. Your individual rights are more important than being polite to the people around you. I get it.

Calling someone a murderer is wrong, not illegal. Sort of in the arena of doing deep breathing exercises in a restaurant. An ******* thing to do, like not wearing a mask around people concerned about catching a disease.

Verbally assaulting is wrong. Period. With masks, without masks. I

But when you create a world where the individual being allowed to do or say whatever they want, you get that.too. Having rights is one thing, but there is also something for showing a little courtesy to those around you. Now, it is all about the individual. If I want to be a dick, it is my Constitutional right. What a great world we created.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

---

At least on this message board; you have never been right about anything.

Ever.

Which makes me wonder how in the world you manage to support yourself.

Or does your spouse continue to do the heavy lifting ?

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

---

Geez, Porter. Covid was novel in 2019. Not in 2020. Or 2021. Or 2022. Or 2023. And thru each of those years, the science was crystal clear, never in doubt.....that masks were useless, given the microscopically small virus orders of magnitude smaller than the pores of the masks. It's common sense, in the immediate phases of a potentially existential threat, that we do everything out of an abundance of caution. But it went way beyond that. It was institutional insistence on masks, followed by virtue posturing from polite society about masks, followed by mask wearers looking down on non-mask wearers. For YEARS.

And, somehow, you manage to pose the mask wearers as victims.
I swear.... SMDH.....

FLBear5630 said:

---

muddybrazos said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Masks were supposed to reduce the distance a person spread the disease, not protect you from getting the disease.
Masks save lives: Here's what you need to know - Harvard Health

The changing of the reasons things were done during the Pandemic is amazing. I guess if your mission is to undermine the Govt, it makes sense.

• We quarantined to ensure hospitals didn't get overwhelmed, not to stop people from getting the disease.
• Inoculations were to reduce the severity of the disease, not prevent it. It was supposed to keep you from ending up in a hospital.
• Masks reduce the distance the disease is spread, protecting others not the person wearing the mask.
• The States made the determinations on how they responded, not the President. Each State, as the Constitution dictates, handled the Pandemic as they saw fit. The Fed made resources available, I was on such calls.

The changing of what happened to back up this narrative that the Deep State is controlling us is getting out of hand.

---

Nobody is changing any narrative. Forcing people to wear a mask into a restaurant only to take it off when they sit down is f'ing ridiculous and those of us who said so were called murderers. I actually had some dumb boomer tell me I was a bad person bc I wouldnt wear a mask into a restaurant and instead opted to stand outside to wait for a patio table. Those masks didnt do anything to prevent covid and the whole thing was just an exercise in govt control. Hell, I had a post taken down off of next door for recommending people should take vitamin D. Covid was the biggest psyop of our time.

---

You guys tend to mix the action with people's reactions.

Wearing a mask through a group of tables until you get to your table is not stupid. It is courteous to the people around you. I realize you put little to no value on those little niceties that society used to take for granted. Now it is an infringement on your MF-ing rights and not only won't you wear a mask but if you want to do deep breathing exercises in the restaurant it is your right to do so. Your individual rights are more important than being polite to the people around you. I get it.

Calling someone a murderer is wrong, not illegal. Sort of in the arena of doing deep breathing exercises in a restaurant. An ******* thing to do, like not wearing a mask around people concerned about catching a disease.

Verbally assaulting is wrong. Period. With masks, without masks. I

But when you create a world where the individual being allowed to do or say whatever they want, you get that.too. Having rights is one thing, but there is also something for showing a little courtesy to those around you. Now, it is all about the individual. If I want to be a dick, it is my Constitutional right. What a great world we created.

---

no one is requesting that others wear a mask... they are demanding it, and even attempting to enforce it by law.

If you don't want to be around people who don't wear a mask... stay at home.

Wearing a mask on your face is akin to wearing a diaper on your elbow... it looks stupid and serves no function at all.

KaiBear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

---

At least on this message board; you have never been right about anything.

Ever.

Which makes me wonder how in the world you manage to support yourself.

Or does your spouse continue to do the heavy lifting ?

---

Are you a reboot of another account? Florida Mike?

whiterock said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

---

Geez, Porter. Covid was novel in 2019. Not in 2020. Or 2021. Or 2022. Or 2023. And thru each of those years, the science was crystal clear, never in doubt.....that masks were useless, given the microscopically small virus orders of magnitude smaller than the pores of the masks. It's common sense, in the immediate phases of a potentially existential threat, that we do everything out of an abundance of caution. But it went way beyond that. It was institutional insistence on masks, followed by virtue posturing from polite society about masks, followed by mask wearers looking down on non-mask wearers. For YEARS.

And, somehow, you manage to pose the mask wearers as victims.
I swear.... SMDH.....

---

That is just not accurate. There were actual scientific institutions promoting cloth masks or surgical masks, and it wasn't because they were opposing crystal clear science. There is still relatively little science on how and why covid spreads so easily.

What you meant to say is that anti government types, who would never have believed anything the cdc said, thought, without basis, all along, that wearing a mask was stupid. Whoops, several in this thread still do. Turns out N95 is actually somewhat effective against covid. The only thing these scientists got wrong at first was how easily covid spread and stick around in the air. They recommended cloth masks because they knew so little, and anything seemed better than nothing when so many were dying. I can't blame them. What was too far was the shutdowns. But recommending masks? Totally fine. It was the mask nutjob zealots that went overboard with it and tried to frame anyone not wearing a mask a murderer.

You are right about the science being clearer in 2021. I should have said 2020.

Edit: Back to Israel waging war against Hamas...

Porteroso said:

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KaiBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Porteroso said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Cobretti said:

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I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

---

At least on this message board; you have never been right about anything.

Ever.

Which makes me wonder how in the world you manage to support yourself.

Or does your spouse continue to do the heavy lifting ?

---

Are you a reboot of another account? Florida Mike?

---

Wrong still again.

Whoever is paying your bills should trade up.

Is Hamas launching covid laden rockets into Israel? Is the IDF using covid laden seawater in the Hamas tunnels? Are both sides wearing gas masks yet?

Porteroso said:

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whiterock said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Do you realize that covid was a novel virus and at the beginning, like 2021, nobody really knew how to stop it? For that matter nobody does today either.

Anyways as I've demonstrated, I'm right and your "i look down on mask wearers" stupidity is wrong. I'm not really interested in educating you on this matter, just making sure it is established i am right and you are wrong so there.

---

Geez, Porter. Covid was novel in 2019. Not in 2020. Or 2021. Or 2022. Or 2023. And thru each of those years, the science was crystal clear, never in doubt.....that masks were useless, given the microscopically small virus orders of magnitude smaller than the pores of the masks. It's common sense, in the immediate phases of a potentially existential threat, that we do everything out of an abundance of caution. But it went way beyond that. It was institutional insistence on masks, followed by virtue posturing from polite society about masks, followed by mask wearers looking down on non-mask wearers. For YEARS.

And, somehow, you manage to pose the mask wearers as victims.
I swear.... SMDH.....

---

That is just not accurate. There were actual scientific institutions promoting cloth masks or surgical masks, and it wasn't because they were opposing crystal clear science. There is still relatively little science on how and why covid spreads so easily.
No, and no.
There are reasons to wear surgical masks which have nothing to do with the Covid virus, WHICH IS ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SMALLER THAN THE PORES OF THE MASKS. There was never any basis for believing masks would have any impact on spread of the disease, which was well-understood by mid-2020 to be spread by primarily by aerosolized virus (which, again, was orders of magnitude smaller than the pores of the masks).

What you meant to say is that anti government types, who would never have believed anything the cdc said, thought, without basis, all along, that wearing a mask was stupid. Whoops, several in this thread still do. Turns out N95 is actually somewhat effective against covid. The only thing these scientists got wrong at first was how easily covid spread and stick around in the air. They recommended cloth masks because they knew so little, and anything seemed better than nothing when so many were dying. I can't blame them. What was too far was the shutdowns. But recommending masks? Totally fine. It was the mask nutjob zealots that went overboard with it and tried to frame anyone not wearing a mask a murderer.
There were studies all along showing what was intuitively obvious - that masks with pores orders of magnitude larger than the diameter of the virus would be useless at stopping community spread.

You are right about the science being clearer in 2021. I should have said 2020.

Edit: Back to Israel waging war against Hamas...

---

Absolutely revisionist history to say that the pro-mask forces at play merely recommended masks. I mean, what planet were you on? The pro-maskers had the force of government and societal institutions behind them and badgered people in public places for non-compliance.

Good grief, man.......

Thankfully, not as much here in Texas. But the fascists were rabid with their mask mandates in much of the country. Same with the experimental & potentially harmful vax.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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Is Hamas launching covid laden rockets into Israel? Is the IDF using covid laden seawater in the Hamas tunnels? Are both sides wearing gas masks yet?

---

It is an interesting development.

Covid was a major turning point.

It pushed people to their final conclusions in so many ways. People who have always tended to like/trust authoritarian & centralized government, went all in on that with the lockdowns & mask mandates.
People who distrusted the government, were pushed into distrusting EVERYTHING that was ever spoken by ANY government entity.
There are other examples.

Covid basically exposed people and their true heartfelt beliefs.

And so now we see people who have always hated Israel and the Jews in secret... proudly protesting & proclaiming their anti-Jew hatred in the streets.

Over the next few years, you will find that almost any major debate will devolve into a Covid-related debate. The reason for that is that Covid was the catalyst for the "great separation" in the world. All it really did was expose peoples hearts & beliefs... but it will be seen by many as the source of the schism in our society.

ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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muddybrazos said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Cobretti said:

---

I look forward to the @nytimes investigation on the new QAnon, represented perfectly here. https://t.co/WYdwA6GaTh

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) November 29, 2023

---

Anyone surprised many of these Karens are wearing masks?

---

no kidding.

It's really sad to see people still wearing masks in 2023.. but it is also helpful. Whenever I see someone with a mask these days, i just know that they are extremely low IQ. It helps me avoid idiots in my daily life.

---

Wearing masks definitely screams I AM A MORON either one is a science denier or a virtual signaling fascist.

---

The stupidity of this post astounds me.

---

The stupidity of still wearing masks long after they were found to be mostly ineffective astounds me

Higher Incidence Of COVID-19 Found Among Consistent Mask-Wearers: Peer-Reviewed Study https://t.co/yM9w6ORQ2a

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) November 29, 2023

---

First, the type of mask makes a big difference. People were misled early to think cloth masks were effective, so they wore them thinking they were protected. Of course those people got covvid more often than others. Covid is able to live in very small microdroplets that only KN95 and better can be somewhat effective against.

Secondly, masks existed far before covid. A kid would get a cold in Asia, wear a mask to school, and go about life. Masks are effective against common minor sicknesses. So someone wears a mask because they feel sick and you judgy zealots are inwardly thinking "stupid people."

I am scraping windows ight now I think might have lead paint, and am gladly an idiot in the eyes of sicem zealots. Basically lots of reasons to wear masks aside from covid.

---

Spare us the gaslighting. The "K95" started about February 2022 after "masks" were continually proven not only to be ineffective but also exacerbate the problem. No rona authoritarian in 2020 or 2021 was saying "only KN95." It was never about t'science or stopping the spread but social control and virtue signaling. And some of us are smart enough to know the difference between < 1 micron virus and lead paint, so save your condescension for your regressive moron friends that believe the Russia Hoax and the 2016 election was stolen and Trump banned Mooslims.

---

Masks were supposed to reduce the distance a person spread the disease, not protect you from getting the disease.
Masks save lives: Here's what you need to know - Harvard Health

The changing of the reasons things were done during the Pandemic is amazing. I guess if your mission is to undermine the Govt, it makes sense.

• We quarantined to ensure hospitals didn't get overwhelmed, not to stop people from getting the disease.
• Inoculations were to reduce the severity of the disease, not prevent it. It was supposed to keep you from ending up in a hospital.
• Masks reduce the distance the disease is spread, protecting others not the person wearing the mask.
• The States made the determinations on how they responded, not the President. Each State, as the Constitution dictates, handled the Pandemic as they saw fit. The Fed made resources available, I was on such calls.

The changing of what happened to back up this narrative that the Deep State is controlling us is getting out of hand.

---

Nobody is changing any narrative. Forcing people to wear a mask into a restaurant only to take it off when they sit down is f'ing ridiculous and those of us who said so were called murderers. I actually had some dumb boomer tell me I was a bad person bc I wouldnt wear a mask into a restaurant and instead opted to stand outside to wait for a patio table. Those masks didnt do anything to prevent covid and the whole thing was just an exercise in govt control. Hell, I had a post taken down off of next door for recommending people should take vitamin D. Covid was the biggest psyop of our time.

---

You guys tend to mix the action with people's reactions.

Wearing a mask through a group of tables until you get to your table is not stupid. It is courteous to the people around you. I realize you put little to no value on those little niceties that society used to take for granted. Now it is an infringement on your MF-ing rights and not only won't you wear a mask but if you want to do deep breathing exercises in the restaurant it is your right to do so. Your individual rights are more important than being polite to the people around you. I get it.

Calling someone a murderer is wrong, not illegal. Sort of in the arena of doing deep breathing exercises in a restaurant. An ******* thing to do, like not wearing a mask around people concerned about catching a disease.

Verbally assaulting is wrong. Period. With masks, without masks. I

But when you create a world where the individual being allowed to do or say whatever they want, you get that.too. Having rights is one thing, but there is also something for showing a little courtesy to those around you. Now, it is all about the individual. If I want to be a dick, it is my Constitutional right. What a great world we created.

---

no one is requesting that others wear a mask... they are demanding it, and even attempting to enforce it by law.

If you don't want to be around people who don't wear a mask... stay at home.

Wearing a mask on your face is akin to wearing a diaper on your elbow... it looks stupid and serves no function at all.

---

Disagree with you on this one. The State Government does have the Authority to require masks, regardless of your opinion of how it looks. There is just as many studies showing that masks do cut down on the range that you spread a disease. Masks may be required because the science IS NOT known yet as a precaution. So, if your County or City require a mask, they have the authority to do so. Even if you disagree.

But, if you want to wear one on your elbow too, that is up to you. It is a free Country.

ShooterTX said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Is Hamas launching covid laden rockets into Israel? Is the IDF using covid laden seawater in the Hamas tunnels? Are both sides wearing gas masks yet?

---

It is an interesting development.

Covid was a major turning point.

It pushed people to their final conclusions in so many ways. People who have always tended to like/trust authoritarian & centralized government, went all in on that with the lockdowns & mask mandates.
People who distrusted the government, were pushed into distrusting EVERYTHING that was ever spoken by ANY government entity.
There are other examples.

Covid basically exposed people and their true heartfelt beliefs.

And so now we see people who have always hated Israel and the Jews in secret... proudly protesting & proclaiming their anti-Jew hatred in the streets.

Over the next few years, you will find that almost any major debate will devolve into a Covid-related debate. The reason for that is that Covid was the catalyst for the "great separation" in the world. All it really did was expose peoples hearts & beliefs... but it will be seen by many as the source of the schism in our society.

---

Another good read.

Thanks.