FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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There is just as many studies showing that masks do cut down on the range that you spread a disease. Masks may be required because the science IS NOT known yet as a precaution.

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This is from the Cochrane review, the Mt. Sinai of evidence based medical meta analyses.

"Ten studies took place in the community, and two studies in healthcare workers. Compared with wearing no mask in the community studies only, wearing a mask may make little to no difference in how many people caught a flu-like illness/COVID-like illness (9 studies; 276,917 people); and probably makes little or no difference in how many people have flu/COVID confirmed by a laboratory test (6 studies; 13,919 people)."

As the left likes to say, "the science is settled". If you're spreading opinions contrary to this, you're guilty of spreading "misinformation and disinformation."

---

We can do this all day. Journal of AMA is peer reviewed data. From a policy perspective, it will be better to mask until you are sure it isn't needed. You can always lower control, ramping up during is almost impossible.

"Available evidence strongly suggests that masking in the community can reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and that masking with the highest-quality masks that can be made widely available should play an important role in controlling whatever pandemic caused by a respiratory pathogen awaits us."


Masks During Pandemics Caused by Respiratory PathogensEvidence and Implications for Action | Infectious Diseases | JAMA Network Open | JAMA Network


You and many on the site seem to think that these decisions are some Authoritarian Government control move, when in real life Emergency Management operates from a Plan for the worst and back off as things are not required. For me, this is the frustrating part that decisions made for emergency management are being weaponized for Politics. We have hurricanes every year. We evacuate the barrier islands and low lying areas, typically it is not needed. But, if it is needed, you can't manage during an event. I saw nothing wrong with how the Pandemic was managed. I thought FL handled it best. MI, NY and MA the worst. But those are State decisions.

This conversation and demonizing the response will end up killing people the next time. Nobody in a position of authority made a decision to hurt someone. Have you ever done Emergency Mgt? There are no right answers, someone is pissed no matter what you do.

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You're intentionally or unintentionally glossing over all the released Fauci emails where he sought to protect his buddies and suppress anything that did not support Big Pharma not to mention the fact that everyone knew masks not only were ineffectual but also made spread worse yes the authoritarians knew the idiots would follow. You also intentionally or unintentionally are glossing over the fact that the "experts" told us going to church would kill grandma but Burning, Looting, and Murdering would not spread covid.

So spare us your gaslighting.

KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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Realitybites said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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In too many ways, the US today resembles the early years of Nazi Germany: government control of too many areas of public life, many institutions conforming to ideological purity (academia, legal profession, medical profession, most professions, banking, many large industries, labor organizations, civic organizations, etc), media controlled by ideological purity & willing to lie about anything, censorship, people targeted for political or religious beliefs, antisemitism, etc ad nauseum.

---

All true.

Keep in mind the only German Jews who survived the death camps were the ones who got out of the country while they still could.

And don't you know the crap they took from their fellow Jews for giving up almost everything they possessed just to get out.

The judicial system is the last safeguard conservatives have in this country.

Lose the courts and personal freedoms along with property rights will be lost forever.

---

The second amendment is the last safeguard of a free people, not the judiciary. If you've been watching the legal system over the past few decades, it is clear that large segments of it are already lost. It isn't quite as far gone as the public school system yet, but within a decade it will be.

The observation that America today is in the same place that Germany was in it's transition from the Weimar Republic to the Third Reich is quite correct. There is a Fourth Reich rising here just as surely as the third rose there.

---

No argument.

But the thought that a few thousand old fat white boys scattered across the country with their deer rifles, shot guns and the occasional AR are going to stop what's coming is an internet fantasy.

The only realistic hope is that a few governors openly lead a resistance. Provide rallying points for like minded Americans willing to take on long odds and fight.

And life in the US would have to get far worse before any governors would accept such a risk

---

Yeah...

It totally didn't work in Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq,...

And you are assuming that the American people will be cool with Abrams Tanks and A10 Warthogs being unleashed in our cities and small towns.

If it is just a bunch of rainbow/snowflake soldiers that are sent out to face a bunch of rednecks... I'm betting on the rednecks! You can put your money on the LGBTQ+ soldiers if you want. Good luck with that. If you actually think that the average non-LGBTQ soldier will be cool with kicking-in doors in Little Rock or Houston... yeah... good luck with that too.

---

Organized military units almost always remain loyal to their officers. And those trained, better equipped units would wipe out the little good ol boys and their gun clubs.

---

You just saw some Pashtun Rednecks in the Hindu Kush mountains make the U.S. military run home.

The Viet Con were a bunch of swamp hicks that made the U.S. army quit and go home.

And the Rednecks here would be engaging in a massive guerrilla campaign against key infrastructure right here at home.

A bloody internal war like that is unlikely to take place as you point out (American elites of both parties gain far more by looting the country together than fighting each other)

But this dismissive idea that "ha ha the imperial US army troops will smash the redneck insurrection" is not only hubris….its militarily foolish.

A war at home against a large part of the native populace would be hard fight for the Federal imperial State to win…especially when the ruling class in DC has probably never had less legitimacy in the eyes of the people than now.

---

LOL

Gotta luv the internet.

Senior Citizen Redneck Rambo's

Who knew ?

---

You are pretty flippant about the idea of a long term bloody civil war or long term insurgency inside of America.

You think the U.S. army can just mop that up in a jiffy huh?

ATL Bear said:

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the vast majority of Americans wouldn't last more than 2 weeks without a water faucet and power. Our first world comfort makes us incredibly ill prepared for the hardships of war, civil or otherwise, unlike Afghanis or the Vietcong. Time to put away the fantasy.

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We don't agree on much…but I 100% agree with this.


Anyone who thinks massive civil disobedience, civil war, or mass insurgency would be a cake walk for the government (or citizens) or easy to suppress by the military is in for a rude awakening.


p.s.


Lucky for us it's unlikely to happen (or a lot of reasons)

Civil wars are not cinematic, easy to end, nor do they have easy to determine consequences.

ATL Bear said:

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Depends if they chose to fight under Geneva rules. That's the real reason some of these aforementioned engagements ended in "losses". When you lose the scrutiny of conduct in war they become massacres, especially in asymmetrical conflict. Heck some of you are roasting Israel and the restraint they're applying.

And the vast majority of Americans wouldn't last more than 2 weeks without a water faucet and power. Our first world comfort makes us incredibly ill prepared for the hardships of war, civil or otherwise, unlike Afghanis or the Vietcong. Time to put away the fantasy.

---

That and I don't see any super power funding of money and weaponry (NVA/Vietcong), a full and professional army fighting along side the rebels (NVA), or old and large stockpiles of Soviet weaponry (Taliban).....

Bear8084 said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Depends if they chose to fight under Geneva rules. That's the real reason some of these aforementioned engagements ended in "losses". When you lose the scrutiny of conduct in war they become massacres, especially in asymmetrical conflict. Heck some of you are roasting Israel and the restraint they're applying.

And the vast majority of Americans wouldn't last more than 2 weeks without a water faucet and power. Our first world comfort makes us incredibly ill prepared for the hardships of war, civil or otherwise, unlike Afghanis or the Vietcong. Time to put away the fantasy.

---

That and I don't see any super power funding of money and weaponry (NVA/Vietcong), a full and professional army fighting along side the rebels (NVA), or old and large stockpiles of Soviet weaponry (Taliban).....

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The Taliban numbers in the hundreds of thousands, at best.

There are over 100,000,000 gun owners in America.

If less than half of those gun owners are willing to fight... it would be the largest force the US Army has ever faced.

But yeah... just brush it off and claim that it would be over in a matter of hours.

ShooterTX said:

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Bear8084 said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Depends if they chose to fight under Geneva rules. That's the real reason some of these aforementioned engagements ended in "losses". When you lose the scrutiny of conduct in war they become massacres, especially in asymmetrical conflict. Heck some of you are roasting Israel and the restraint they're applying.

And the vast majority of Americans wouldn't last more than 2 weeks without a water faucet and power. Our first world comfort makes us incredibly ill prepared for the hardships of war, civil or otherwise, unlike Afghanis or the Vietcong. Time to put away the fantasy.

---

That and I don't see any super power funding of money and weaponry (NVA/Vietcong), a full and professional army fighting along side the rebels (NVA), or old and large stockpiles of Soviet weaponry (Taliban).....

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The Taliban numbers in the hundreds of thousands, at best.

There are over 100,000,000 gun owners in America.

---

I'm sure the U.S. army could handle those hayseed yokels with ease.

I mean Iraq & Afghanistan were both smaller than Texas in geographic size and population…but I'm sure the U.S. government could handle half the country in revolt.

Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

In too many ways, the US today resembles the early years of Nazi Germany: government control of too many areas of public life, many institutions conforming to ideological purity (academia, legal profession, medical profession, most professions, banking, many large industries, labor organizations, civic organizations, etc), media controlled by ideological purity & willing to lie about anything, censorship, people targeted for political or religious beliefs, antisemitism, etc ad nauseum.

---

All true.

Keep in mind the only German Jews who survived the death camps were the ones who got out of the country while they still could.

And don't you know the crap they took from their fellow Jews for giving up almost everything they possessed just to get out.

The judicial system is the last safeguard conservatives have in this country.

Lose the courts and personal freedoms along with property rights will be lost forever.

---

The second amendment is the last safeguard of a free people, not the judiciary. If you've been watching the legal system over the past few decades, it is clear that large segments of it are already lost. It isn't quite as far gone as the public school system yet, but within a decade it will be.

The observation that America today is in the same place that Germany was in it's transition from the Weimar Republic to the Third Reich is quite correct. There is a Fourth Reich rising here just as surely as the third rose there.

---

No argument.

But the thought that a few thousand old fat white boys scattered across the country with their deer rifles, shot guns and the occasional AR are going to stop what's coming is an internet fantasy.

The only realistic hope is that a few governors openly lead a resistance. Provide rallying points for like minded Americans willing to take on long odds and fight.

And life in the US would have to get far worse before any governors would accept such a risk

---

Yeah...

It totally didn't work in Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq,...

And you are assuming that the American people will be cool with Abrams Tanks and A10 Warthogs being unleashed in our cities and small towns.

If it is just a bunch of rainbow/snowflake soldiers that are sent out to face a bunch of rednecks... I'm betting on the rednecks! You can put your money on the LGBTQ+ soldiers if you want. Good luck with that. If you actually think that the average non-LGBTQ soldier will be cool with kicking-in doors in Little Rock or Houston... yeah... good luck with that too.

---

Organized military units almost always remain loyal to their officers. And those trained, better equipped units would wipe out the little good ol boys and their gun clubs.

---

You just saw some Pashtun Rednecks in the Hindu Kush mountains make the U.S. military run home.

The Viet Con were a bunch of swamp hicks that made the U.S. army quit and go home.

And the Rednecks here would be engaging in a massive guerrilla campaign against key infrastructure right here at home.

A bloody internal war like that is unlikely to take place as you point out (American elites of both parties gain far more by looting the country together than fighting each other)

But this dismissive idea that "ha ha the imperial US army troops will smash the redneck insurrection" is not only hubris….its militarily foolish.

A war at home against a large part of the native populace would be hard fight for the Federal imperial State to win…especially when the ruling class in DC has probably never had less legitimacy in the eyes of the people than now.

---

LOL

Gotta luv the internet.

Senior Citizen Redneck Rambo's

Who knew ?

---

You are pretty flippant about the idea of a long term bloody civil war or long term insurgency inside of America.

You think the U.S. army can just mop that up in a jiffy huh?

---

As things stand today........... absolutely.

whiterock said:

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If you were really in the CIA then you know the truth about Bibi and you know hes not a good guy at all.

muddybrazos said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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These hypothetical civil war scenarios are silly and dangerous. We can only hope & pray that nothing that stupid would ever happen. This country has already survived one civil war and it was devastating in many ways. We do not need another one ever.

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You are dead right. The Civil War crap needs to stop. Insurrection is not an answer.

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The only people talking about insurrections are you and other libtards on msnbc. Most of the country is full of normal people who realize that Washington is controlled by globalist warmongers who dont care about our country.

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Amen

There is a saying that liberty depends on four boxes...

...the soap box
...the ballot box
...the jury box
...the ammo box.

You can look at that list and see for yourself which of them the left has been attacking, and to what degree.

The first has been under attack for some time, and the government - social media collusion that began during Covid and continued through the election of 2020 and beyond worsened it.

The election of 2020 saw the second under attack in a number of key counties and this continued in 2022 in at least Arizona.

You see the ongoing attack on the third with our two tiered legal system and differential sentencing based on political affiliation.

It is only when denied their constitutional rights to the first three will a people resort to the fourth.

Realitybites said:

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historian said:

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These hypothetical civil war scenarios are silly and dangerous. We can only hope & pray that nothing that stupid would ever happen. This country has already survived one civil war and it was devastating in many ways. We do not need another one ever.

---

We're already in one. It's just that up to this point, it's been fought with plowshares instead of swords.

---

… and lawfare, mobs, and other terrorist tactics.

If it ever comes to that, and we all had better hope and pray it doesn't, then it won't be all rednecks and they certainly won't all be seniors.

And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

historian said:

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If it ever comes to that, and we all had better hope and pray it doesn't, then it won't be all rednecks and they certainly won't all be seniors.

---

Without established political and organizational leadership any armed resistance is doomed to fail.

And the January 6th dummies will have a lot more company in their prison cells.

Not sure why some folks like to post their silly Rambo fantasies on the internet. Wonder exactly who they are trying to impress.

historian said:

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And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

---

Yea, the U.S. military is failing to meet recruitment goals right now.

The idea that it would be easier to get people to sign up during a bloody civil war or long term insurgency is laughable.

Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

---

Yea, the U.S. military is failing to meet recruitment goals right now.

The idea that it would be easier to get people to sign up during a bloody civil war or long term insurgency is laughable.

---

RedBrick, what happened to the "Amen" about Civil Wars? You guys are really funny...

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

---

Yea, the U.S. military is failing to meet recruitment goals right now.

The idea that it would be easier to get people to sign up during a bloody civil war or long term insurgency is laughable.

---

RedBrick, what happened to the "Amen" about Civil Wars? You guys are really funny...

---

Did you read the quote I respond to with amen?

"The only people talking about insurrections are you and other libtards on msnbc. Most of the country is full of normal people"

Amen to the idea that America is filled with normal good people who don't want mass civil violence and war.

Now in a hypothetical discussion about that…like the one we are having….it's obvious that such a conflict would not be easy to fight or a cake walk for the government like some on here think.

But I personally hope to never see such a thing break out

I will also add that liberals (far more than conservatives) seem obsessed with the last civil war and fantasies about new ones in the future.

I can't tell if they are scared of such a conflict breaking out or just relish the idea of turning the power of the Federal government lose on their domestic enemies

historian said:

---

And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

---

Exactly.

There aren't a lot of American soldiers who would be willing to kick doors and shoot their neighbors.

Leftists are so damn stupid. The idea that they could just order the military to murder citizens... it's just ridiculous.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

---

Yea, the U.S. military is failing to meet recruitment goals right now.

The idea that it would be easier to get people to sign up during a bloody civil war or long term insurgency is laughable.

---

RedBrick, what happened to the "Amen" about Civil Wars? You guys are really funny...

---

Did you read the quote I respond to with amen?

"The only people talking about insurrections are you and other libtards on msnbc. Most of the country is full of normal people"

Amen to the idea that America is filled with normal good people who don't want mass civil violence and war.

Now in a hypothetical discussion about that…like the one we are having….it's obvious that such a conflict would not be easy to fight or a cake walk for the government like some on here think.

But I personally hope to never see such a thing break out

I will also add that liberals (far more than conservatives) seem obsessed with the last civil war and fantasies about new ones in the future.

I can't tell if they are scared of such a conflict breaking out or just relish the idea of turning the power of the Federal government lose on their domestic enemies

---

Ok, sorry. Misunderstood. I agree with you.

Clearly, the fascists want to turn the government loose on their domestic enemies. They are already doing that with everything except the military. I almost said @without violence" but J6 was quite violent, the result of FBI infiltrators & all the deaths were caused by the FBI & capitol police.

ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

In too many ways, the US today resembles the early years of Nazi Germany: government control of too many areas of public life, many institutions conforming to ideological purity (academia, legal profession, medical profession, most professions, banking, many large industries, labor organizations, civic organizations, etc), media controlled by ideological purity & willing to lie about anything, censorship, people targeted for political or religious beliefs, antisemitism, etc ad nauseum.

---

All true.

Keep in mind the only German Jews who survived the death camps were the ones who got out of the country while they still could.

And don't you know the crap they took from their fellow Jews for giving up almost everything they possessed just to get out.

The judicial system is the last safeguard conservatives have in this country.

Lose the courts and personal freedoms along with property rights will be lost forever.

---

The second amendment is the last safeguard of a free people, not the judiciary. If you've been watching the legal system over the past few decades, it is clear that large segments of it are already lost. It isn't quite as far gone as the public school system yet, but within a decade it will be.

The observation that America today is in the same place that Germany was in it's transition from the Weimar Republic to the Third Reich is quite correct. There is a Fourth Reich rising here just as surely as the third rose there.

---

No argument.

But the thought that a few thousand old fat white boys scattered across the country with their deer rifles, shot guns and the occasional AR are going to stop what's coming is an internet fantasy.

The only realistic hope is that a few governors openly lead a resistance. Provide rallying points for like minded Americans willing to take on long odds and fight.

And life in the US would have to get far worse before any governors would accept such a risk

---

Yeah...

It totally didn't work in Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq,...

And you are assuming that the American people will be cool with Abrams Tanks and A10 Warthogs being unleashed in our cities and small towns.

If it is just a bunch of rainbow/snowflake soldiers that are sent out to face a bunch of rednecks... I'm betting on the rednecks! You can put your money on the LGBTQ+ soldiers if you want. Good luck with that. If you actually think that the average non-LGBTQ soldier will be cool with kicking-in doors in Little Rock or Houston... yeah... good luck with that too.

---

Organized military units almost always remain loyal to their officers. And those trained, better equipped units would wipe out the little good ol boys and their gun clubs.

---

You just saw some Pashtun Rednecks in the Hindu Kush mountains make the U.S. military run home.

The Viet Con were a bunch of swamp hicks that made the U.S. army quit and go home.

And the Rednecks here would be engaging in a massive guerrilla campaign against key infrastructure right here at home.

A bloody internal war like that is unlikely to take place as you point out (American elites of both parties gain far more by looting the country together than fighting each other)

But this dismissive idea that "ha ha the imperial US army troops will smash the redneck insurrection" is not only hubris….its militarily foolish.

A war at home against a large part of the native populace would be hard fight for the Federal imperial State to win…especially when the ruling class in DC has probably never had less legitimacy in the eyes of the people than now.

---

LOL

Gotta luv the internet.

Senior Citizen Redneck Rambo's

Who knew ?

---

You are pretty flippant about the idea of a long term bloody civil war or long term insurgency inside of America.

You think the U.S. army can just mop that up in a jiffy huh?

---

As things stand today........... absolutely.

---

There a few dead ATF officers who used to think that way... and then they ran into a compound of ordinary folks with guns outside of Waco. I was working at that TV station.. saw the raw footage that the public didn't see. Those ATF idiots got exactly what they deserved. They thought they were going to have a big PR event, with a televised raid and a bunch of religious nuts being paraded out in cuffs, and then a ton of guns lined up on display for the media. They got their asses kicked by untrained regulars. They had superior numbers, weapons, training, resources.. and yet they ate bullets instead of posing for the cameras.

---

The ATF proved then snd since that no government agency should be allowed to have their own military forces or even weapons. Most bureaucrats cannot be trusted with that kind of power. Congress should pass a law.

ShooterTX said:

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historian said:

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And lots of those soldiers in the US Army would be unwilling to shoot and kill their friends and family, or ordinary Americans who are just like them.

The military has been taken over by woke morons and they have recruited like minded crazies but not very successfully: recruitment numbers are way down for that same reason, although they won't admit it. I've see. Multiple reports about the recruiting crisis & how they cannot figure out why.

---

Exactly.

There aren't a lot of American soldiers who would be willing to kick doors and shoot their neighbors.

Leftists are so damn stupid. The idea that they could just order the military to murder citizens... it's just ridiculous.

---

Not going to waste much time on this as history has proven over and over again that under the vast majority of situations the military follows orders of their upper echelons.

And within a relatively short amount of time kills or imprisons an unorganized rabble of yokels who insist on confusing one hour a week on a gun range for real combat training and tactical ability.

Regardless; without some form of pre existing political or military leadership to coordinate such a movement; the entire effort would be a bloody yet useless screw up from day one.


Obey the law.

Vote

Pray

Good news:

Ukrainian forces shot down three Russian Su-34 fighter bombers in the south of Ukraine, the commander of the Air Force Mykola Oleshchuk has reported on Telegram.#SlavaUkraïni 🇺🇦👊 pic.twitter.com/D2Yzo55Xj6

— Republicans against Trump (@RpsAgainstTrump) December 22, 2023

Making John Brown Great Again

"...It is important to relive this history, not to re-litigate Brown's methods, especially in light of the fact that 750,000 Americans lost their lives on the battlefield during the Civil War settling this matter, but to understand how the stage is set in a free and prosperous society for such reckless vigilantism to find an audience.

Decade after decade, the political process could have righted the wrong of slavery peaceably, but it chose expedience and instant gratification instead. And then when the system no longer would live up to even its immoral compromises, it became clear to those Americans then that they were on their own, too. The cavalry wasn't coming, unless it was coming for them.

In the history of this fallen world, there has never been a peaceful transfer of property and liberty on a mass scale within a culture, and there never will be. There won't be one on this North American land mass, either, if it sadly comes to that, as it has before. I pray it doesn't again, because I happen to enjoy living here. I happen to enjoy the mindless and shallow fun, entertainment, and convenience we're afforded here. I'd really like to pass on that whole American dream thing to my children. I'm very blessed to be a spoiled American. I doubt I'm alone.

However, the ballad of John Brown is a cautionary tale that reminds that us our sins have a way of finding us out. That we can only kick the can down the road for so long until we come to a dead end. And that when the powers that be go from powerless to stop injustice to actively promoting it, sooner or later a presence will arise from elsewhere to take that power back..."

Worth reading the whole thing.

The Confederates has great military leaders with experience in the Mexican War, as soldiers & officers in the US Army. They often fought against old friends at Bull Run, Antietam, Gettysburg, Chancellorsville, etc. The point is that they were former members of the U.S. military. They also were traitors.

historian said:

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The Confederates has great military leaders with experience in the Mexican War, as soldiers & officers in the US Army. They often fought against old friends at Bull Run, Antietam, Gettysburg, Chancellorsville, etc. The point is that they were former members of the U.S. military. They also were traitors.

---

When you lose.... you are a traitor.

When you win…. you are a patriot.


As winners write the vast majority of the history books.

True. But I'm going by the constitutional definition. It's there, in Article 4 I believe.

historian said:

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True. But I'm going by the constitutional definition. It's there, in Article 4 I believe.

---

Constitution is only applicable because the winners wrote it.

Otherwise the authors would have been previously hung as traitors.

Ben Franklin did say:

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we will hang separately."

The constitution was drafted in 1787 and the Civil War was 1861-1865. It was the "supreme law of the land" at the time.

historian said:

---

The Confederates has great military leaders with experience in the Mexican War, as soldiers & officers in the US Army. They often fought against old friends at Bull Run, Antietam, Gettysburg, Chancellorsville, etc. The point is that they were former members of the U.S. military. They also were traitors.

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"Even after the southern States had acted upon the old-time theory & seceded, the North for a moment was not sure that they had acted beyond their right. It required the terrible exercise of prolonged war to impart to the national idea diffused vitality & authentic power." -Wilson

"the Southern states only claimed the right to go their own way their policy would be defensive; the North, which denied this right & was determined to keep them in the Union by force, had to take the offensive. A formidable task confronted the aggressors."- Winston Churchill

"If you bring these leaders to trial it will condemn the North," Chase had warned his former cabinet colleagues in July, "for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion." As for the rebel chieftain, the authorities would have done better not to apprehend him. "Lincoln wanted Jefferson Davis to escape, and he was right. His capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason. Secession is settled. Let it stay settled."~ Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase (Burke Davis, "The Long Surrender", 1985,; Shelby Foote, "The Civil War," V3, p. 1035)

historian said:

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Ben Franklin did say:

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we will hang separately."

The constitution was drafted in 1787 and the Civil War was 1861-1865. It was the "supreme law of the land" at the time.

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He said that in terms of the colonies remaining together in a war against Britian....it was not a commentary on the US Constitution...that did not exist at the time.

"When they were finally separated from Great Britain, the allegiance of their citizens was not to the Nation for there was none. It was to the States." -Calvin Coolidge 5/30/1924

[In the course of the Constitutional Convention's debates, James Madison also came to admit that "the more he reflected on the use of force, the more he doubted the practicability, the justice, and the efficacy of it when applied to people collectively and not individually." He conceded that the "use of force against a state would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound." He acknowledged that expressly providing for military coercion against delinquent states should be avoided in the Constitution, since using force in a union of states might prove self-destructive.]

[It is indisputable that these United States were born out of revolution. One major difference is the South contended it was leaving a voluntary union, whereas the 13 colonies left an involuntary union known as the British empire. As Davis said: "Our situation illustrates the American idea that governments rest on the consent of the governed, and that is there is the right of the people to alter or abolish them whenever they become destructive to the ends for which they are established." Also, planting a seed for the legitimacy of voluntary government, he said: "A section settled by violence, or in disregard of the law, must remain unsettled forever."]