ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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We support Israel because they are our allies.

How so? Ally implies a symbiotic relationship. How does the average American tax payer receive any benefit from the hundreds of billions of foreign aid we have spent on Israel's behalf? All that spending has weakened the USD and our savings. The only people benefitting from this relationship are the Washington lobbyists, a handful of defense contractors, and the politicians receiving their kickbacks and campaign contributions.

It's also in our interest to support the freest, most stable, most prosperous country in the region.

The UAE? Even if this was true, its insane and complete illogical to think that bcs a country is stable and rich we should throw hard earned tax payer money at them.

The are the one country in that region most like us.

In what way exactly is Israel like the US? And again, even this were true why does it matter? Is there any other country on earth throwing money at the US bcs we look like them?

Finally, it's the right thing to do gif all kinds of moral and cultural reasons.

So destroying the value of the USD and forcing higher taxes on middle class Americans to support a foreign government is moral and cultural?

Israel is a rich country that has universal healthcare and a generous welfare state for its citizens. American citizens who are having their money stolen from them do not.

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This has to be a parody account because no one can be this stupid and oblivious.

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Ok Boomer.

ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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We support Israel because they are our allies.

How so? Ally implies a symbiotic relationship. How does the average American tax payer receive any benefit from the hundreds of billions of foreign aid we have spent on Israel's behalf? All that spending has weakened the USD and our savings. The only people benefitting from this relationship are the Washington lobbyists, a handful of defense contractors, and the politicians receiving their kickbacks and campaign contributions.

It's also in our interest to support the freest, most stable, most prosperous country in the region.

The UAE? Even if this was true, its insane and complete illogical to think that bcs a country is stable and rich we should throw hard earned tax payer money at them.

The are the one country in that region most like us.

In what way exactly is Israel like the US? And again, even this were true why does it matter? Is there any other country on earth throwing money at the US bcs we look like them?

Finally, it's the right thing to do gif all kinds of moral and cultural reasons.

So destroying the value of the USD and forcing higher taxes on middle class Americans to support a foreign government is moral and cultural?

Israel is a rich country that has universal healthcare and a generous welfare state for its citizens. American citizens who are having their money stolen from them do not.

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This has to be a parody account because no one can be this stupid and oblivious.

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Why am I not surprised you support giving other people's money away to foreign governments.

Arent you the globalist who was saying to hell with buying American made products and anyone who wants to protect America's middle class is a communist?

ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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We support Israel because they are our allies.

How so? Ally implies a symbiotic relationship. How does the average American tax payer receive any benefit from the hundreds of billions of foreign aid we have spent on Israel's behalf? All that spending has weakened the USD and our savings. The only people benefitting from this relationship are the Washington lobbyists, a handful of defense contractors, and the politicians receiving their kickbacks and campaign contributions.

It's also in our interest to support the freest, most stable, most prosperous country in the region.

The UAE? Even if this was true, its insane and complete illogical to think that bcs a country is stable and rich we should throw hard earned tax payer money at them.

The are the one country in that region most like us.

In what way exactly is Israel like the US? And again, even this were true why does it matter? Is there any other country on earth throwing money at the US bcs we look like them?

Finally, it's the right thing to do gif all kinds of moral and cultural reasons.

So destroying the value of the USD and forcing higher taxes on middle class Americans to support a foreign government is moral and cultural?

Israel is a rich country that has universal healthcare and a generous welfare state for its citizens. American citizens who are having their money stolen from them do not.

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This has to be a parody account because no one can be this stupid and oblivious.

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Why am I not surprised you support giving other people's money away to foreign governments.

Arent you the globalist who was saying to hell with buying American made products and anyone who wants to protect America's middle class is a communist?

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Yep, oblivious. But what are you worried about? You probably aren't paying any income tax or producing anything of value. Don't worry I'll keep covering your tab so you can blame the globalists, foreigners, Democrats, elites, the WEF, Jews, Ukrainians, and whoever else assuages your anger for your sorry lot in life.

Sincerely,
Gen Xer

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Wow! I am so sorry Sir!

I didn't know I was speaking to someone who pays an income tax and produces things of value!

I sincerely apologize Sir!

And not to sound ungrateful or anything.... but you seem to have missed several payments on not just my tab.... but your tab too... the globalist debt collectors just called and told me your last check bounced.

They also told me you agreed to send them several more billion dollars bcs you said you were allies n' stuff..... and I that I had co-signed? I dont remember co-signing on that sir! But they assured me you would cover it all!

Then I woke up this morning and all the money in my account had been withdrawn and they were placing me and all my future descendants into bondage.... they said something about you using me and my family as collateral for your "idiotic" financial decisions.... I know you arent an idiot sir! I am just repeating what they told me! I mean you pay an income tax and produce things of value! You are practically the second coming!

49 of the 51 Democrats in the Senate are supporting a measure endorsing the creation of a Palestinian state as part of a national security package that includes military aid to Israel.https://t.co/OrN5cNgJ7W

— Axios (@axios) January 25, 2024

You do not understand geopolitics or international relations very well.

Symbiosis? Nonsense! During the Cold War, the use allied with lots of countries and none of those relationships were symbiotic. Alliance does not imply anything of the kind. American leaders thought it was in our interest to maintain alliances in Europe, East Asia, Latin America, & the Middle East. The U.S. assumed a global leadership role, one previously held by the British, to protect international commerce. That is in our interest even if it benefits everyone else too. Just look at the current situation in the Red Sea.

The UAE is definitely but I'm not sure how stable their government is and they certainly don't have political representation or civil rights comparable to Israel. The same is true of every other nation in the region. It is most definitely in our interest to maintain as much stability as possible in the region. That should be obvious.

Titus and Titus said:

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historian said:

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That is not what determines if a state is a democracy or some other political system. However, the fact that Israel has a multi-party parliamentary system with real power, regular free elections (the prime minister can, and has been, voted out of office), an independent judiciary, guarantees of basic civil liberties, etc means that their government is representative and free compared to the authoritarian regimes surrounding them. Over the years, some of the Arab states have initiated some reforms with some of these features but they are not nearly as extensive as what Israel has.

Put another way, Israel's government resembles those of European countries and the U.S. (with all our flaws) a lot more than any Arab state does. And there are Muslim members of the Knesset. I doubt there are many Jews with a real voice in those neighboring governments. Certainly there are none in the Palestinian governments.

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In other words it's a democracy for a specific ethnic-religious class and no one else. We have been constantly lectured in America that a democracy must allow for
Minority rights and representation but Israel, who gives no representation to Christians gets a free pass.

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False. In other words, nothing of the kind.

First of all, Judaism is a faith not an ethnicity. And the descendants of Israel (the man, not the nation) have been intermarrying with almost everyone else for 4,000 years. The Arabs in Israel have equal rights and representation in the government. They are better off there than the people of any Arab nation (not to mention the Persians, Turks, etc). I don't know how many Christian's are Israeli citizens but the citizens do have representation.

It is in *my*, and most likely yours too, best interest to drill baby, drill! And become energy independent. Which North America is more than capable of.

America's involvement in the middle east is only beneficial to Israeli lobbyists and Zionist Jews. If you are one of those two things, I understand you reticence to alter our suicidal foreign policy.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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We support Israel because they are our allies. It's also in our interest to support the freest, most stable, most prosperous country in the region. The are the one country in that region most like us. Finally, it's the right thing to do gif all kinds of moral and cultural reasons.

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When the US had the extra cash to do so….yes.

We don't have the extra cash anymore.

Far from it.

In reality US taxpayers continue to give Israel billions of dollars every year is primarily due to Jewish lobbyists providing 'campaign contributions' to DC politicians.

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Now, this is somewhat accurate. However, America's current economic crisis is not because we give out a few billion dollar in foreign aid (some of which is questionable). No, our economic crisis is because of the profligate spending by our corrupt uniparty government (both houses & both parties share blame) and foreign aid is a tiny fraction of that. Because our national debt is so insanely high ($34 trillion & climbing very rapidly), interest payments on that debt are now north of $800 billion per year. Our total normal foreign aid is only a few billion per year. Yes, Biden has sent seemingly endless billions to Ukraine recklessly & without controls but that has only been for 2-3 years.

historian said:

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Titus and Titus said:

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historian said:

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That is not what determines if a state is a democracy or some other political system. However, the fact that Israel has a multi-party parliamentary system with real power, regular free elections (the prime minister can, and has been, voted out of office), an independent judiciary, guarantees of basic civil liberties, etc means that their government is representative and free compared to the authoritarian regimes surrounding them. Over the years, some of the Arab states have initiated some reforms with some of these features but they are not nearly as extensive as what Israel has.

Put another way, Israel's government resembles those of European countries and the U.S. (with all our flaws) a lot more than any Arab state does. And there are Muslim members of the Knesset. I doubt there are many Jews with a real voice in those neighboring governments. Certainly there are none in the Palestinian governments.

---

In other words it's a democracy for a specific ethnic-religious class and no one else. We have been constantly lectured in America that a democracy must allow for
Minority rights and representation but Israel, who gives no representation to Christians gets a free pass.

---

False. In other words, nothing of the kind.

First of all, Judaism is a faith not an ethnicity. And the descendants of Israel (the man, not the nation) have been intermarrying with almost everyone else for 4,000 years. The Arabs in Israel have equal rights and representation in the government. They are better off there than the people of any Arab nation (not to mention the Persians, Turks, etc). I don't know how many Christian's are Israeli citizens but the citizens do have representation.

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It is an ethnicity and religion . Otherwise they wouldn't care about dna tests.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-01-24/ty-article/.premium/israeli-high-court-allows-dna-testing-to-prove-judaism/0000017f-e13b-d804-ad7f-f1fb85f90000

Furthermore, throughout America, Europe and the world Jews are in political positions despite being around 2% of the population. Where are the Christian and Muslim politicians in Israel? They don't exist.

Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

The_barBEARian said:

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Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

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So, give us your foreign policy? Where do we fit in the world? Is there anyone that the US should help?

FLBear5630 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

---

So, give us your foreign policy? Where do we fit in the world? Is there anyone that the US should help?

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No foreign aid. No foreign wars. Fair Trade.

America first. American citizens first. And American tax payers really, really come first.

I don't know if there are any Christian's in the Knesset but I do know there are Muslims. They are politicians.

historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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We support Israel because they are our allies. It's also in our interest to support the freest, most stable, most prosperous country in the region. The are the one country in that region most like us. Finally, it's the right thing to do gif all kinds of moral and cultural reasons.

---

When the US had the extra cash to do so….yes.

We don't have the extra cash anymore.

Far from it.

In reality US taxpayers continue to give Israel billions of dollars every year is primarily due to Jewish lobbyists providing 'campaign contributions' to DC politicians.

---

Now, this is somewhat accurate. However, America's current economic crisis is not because we give out a few billion dollar in foreign aid (some of which is questionable). No, our economic crisis is because of the profligate spending by our corrupt uniparty government (both houses & both parties share blame) and foreign aid is a tiny fraction of that. Because our national debt is so insanely high ($34 trillion & climbing very rapidly), interest payments on that debt are now north of $800 billion per year. Our total normal foreign aid is only a few billion per year. Yes, Biden has sent seemingly endless billions to Ukraine recklessly & without controls but that has only been for 2-3 years.

---

Agree

However we have been giving Israel billions annually for decades.

Time to stop the handouts .

The_barBEARian said:

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Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

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Just because you think it is extraneous & a waste does not mean it is. I know many Americans, including myself, believe that supporting Israel is most definitely in America's interest.

Your argument about the taxpayer is bogus: I've already pointed out how tiny a part of the budget goes to foreign aid. All of it, not only to Israel. Put another way, even if you managed to eliminate ALL foreign aid, the change to the total deficit every year would hardly be noticeable.

If you really would like to see the budget brought under control then focus on the areas that spend the most and are thus prime targets for cuts: entitlements. But that touches many people's sacred cows! There are a lot of other areas in which spending can be cut.

To be honest, too many anti-Israel rants look like thinly veiled antisemitism.

Thanks. Yes, I realize that done people do not know how to use the English language because they don't know the meaning of words. They also don't know anything about logic, economics, politics, history, etc.

historian said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

---

Just because you think it is extraneous & a waste does not mean it is. I know many Americans, including myself, believe that supporting Israel is most definitely in America's interest.

Your argument about the taxpayer is bogus: I've already pointed out how tiny a part of the budget goes to foreign aid. All of it, not only to Israel. Put another way, even if you managed to eliminate ALL foreign aid, the change to the total deficit every year would hardly be noticeable.

If you really would like to see the budget brought under control then focus on the areas that spend the most and are thus prime targets for cuts: entitlements. But that touches many people's sacred cows! There are a lot of other areas in which spending can be cut.

To be honest, too many anti-Israel rants look like thinly veiled antisemitism.

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It's not just foreign aid. "Defense" spending needs to be cut across the board before we do anything with entitlements.

Agreed.

Defense is one of our greatest expenses in each budget but it is also one of the few that is constitutionally mandated and a primary function of government. There is plenty of waste that can be cut, however, especially in the Pentagon.

You presented no valid arguments so now you are using the racism card.

You, sombear, ATLbear and others need to understand that playing the victimhood olympics game to emotionally blackmail and guilt trip innocent people doesn't work when Israel is actively killing tens of thousands of unarmed people, mostly children.

I started as anti-don't steal my money... but the pro-Israel, pro-zionism side is so obnoxious i'm turning heel on you guys... your only saving grace is the Palestinian side is equally obnoxious.

historian said:

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Defense is one of our greatest expenses in each budget but it is also one of the few that is constitutionally mandated and a primary function of government. There is plenty of waste that can be cut, however, especially in the Pentagon.

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That's why I used the quotation marks. We need to get back to the constitutional mandate of actual defense, not global hegemony.

In case you have forgotten, let me remind you what the IDF originally claimed was under al-Shifa Hospital. https://t.co/99oGDo4cJs

— Philippe Lemoine (@phl43) January 25, 2024

Every one of my argument was completely valid.

Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.

Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

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Defense is one of our greatest expenses in each budget but it is also one of the few that is constitutionally mandated and a primary function of government. There is plenty of waste that can be cut, however, especially in the Pentagon.

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That's why I used the quotation marks. We need to get back to the constitutional mandate of actual defense, not global hegemony.

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Point taken on the quotation marks. I'm not sure how I missed that. As for America being a global hegemon it really depends on how you look at it. I see our role in the world as being more like the world's policeman. It is not the same thing. Pax Americana is more like Pax Britannica than Pax Romana.

Oh that does not mean hegemony but even if it did, the world is better off with US hegemony as opposed to Russian or Chinese hegemony.

The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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We support Israel because they are our allies.

How so? Ally implies a symbiotic relationship. How does the average American tax payer receive any benefit from the hundreds of billions of foreign aid we have spent on Israel's behalf? All that spending has weakened the USD and our savings. The only people benefitting from this relationship are the Washington lobbyists, a handful of defense contractors, and the politicians receiving their kickbacks and campaign contributions.

It's also in our interest to support the freest, most stable, most prosperous country in the region.

The UAE? Even if this was true, its insane and complete illogical to think that bcs a country is stable and rich we should throw hard earned tax payer money at them.

The are the one country in that region most like us.

In what way exactly is Israel like the US? And again, even this were true why does it matter? Is there any other country on earth throwing money at the US bcs we look like them?

Finally, it's the right thing to do gif all kinds of moral and cultural reasons.

So destroying the value of the USD and forcing higher taxes on middle class Americans to support a foreign government is moral and cultural?

Israel is a rich country that has universal healthcare and a generous welfare state for its citizens. American citizens who are having their money stolen from them do not.

---

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This has to be a parody account because no one can be this stupid and oblivious.

---

Why am I not surprised you support giving other people's money away to foreign governments.

Arent you the globalist who was saying to hell with buying American made products and anyone who wants to protect America's middle class is a communist?

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yeah, how's your iPhone, I pad, TV, Mac Book? How are those fancy clothes you probably don't wear? How's you car built in Mexico? Come on man. It is a global economy. Now, we need out of China, but that won't happen. All most all Apple products built in Jhina!

The_barBEARian said:

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J.R. said:

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historian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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.
Geez, talk about gifts. What the heck are the mullah's thinking attacking a Chinese client state?

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"The missile strikes were part of Iran's sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January. Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K."

Oh, and there's this.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

"A revealing light on how we got here has now been shone by a recently declassified secret US intelligence report, written in August 2012, which uncannily predicts and effectively welcomes the prospect of a "Salafist principality" in eastern Syria and an al-Qaida-controlled Islamic state in Syria and Iraq. In stark contrast to western claims at the time, the Defense Intelligence Agency document identifies al-Qaida in Iraq (which became Isis) and fellow Salafists as the "major forces driving the insurgency in Syria" and states that "western countries, the Gulf states and Turkey" were supporting the opposition's efforts to take control of eastern Syria."

So we use puppet forces to carry out a bombing in Iran and poke the bear, Iran strikes back and it isn't quite the random gift it might appear to be. Try and exploit the Sunni-Shia divide to prevent Islamic unity around opposition to Israel's actions in Gaza and if the deep state can get World War 3 kicked off before November, all the better.

Washington D.C. - "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

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Huh? There are much worse. I would say DC is in top 10% of governments

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That is probably an indictment of how many crappy governments (and counties) are on earth…and not a ringing endorsement of our rulers

DC is sitting on a basically unbelievable position ruling over a vast continental spanning country of endless raw materials, human capital, the best river connected farm land on earth, and all of it protected by the massive oceans.

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Or, maybe your expectations of what is possible with Governments is unrealistic in practice.

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Go look at the Netherlands (size of Vermont) and you can see what a non-corrupt and serious government can do....and has to do to be successful.

Denmark is up there as well.

Two Germanic states that have basically nothing to work with and basically crap land.

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I have been to both for work. You would NEVER approve of the policies they have to achieve their goals. They both use economics, so if you are well off you still get to do what you want. Take public transportation. Everyone raves about Danish transit and bike usage. They price you out of driving. VAT, 100% car tax, $6 a liter fuel, insurance, camera enforcement, tolls. All that and they still have too many cars in Copenhagen and they had to triple parking fees.

By the way, true story. In Copenhagen we heard a traffic engineer tell us their safety stats. We called BS. So, asked him to go for a beer. 10 beers later, he filled us in on the economic constraints used by the Government. You think those people riding Bikes want to ride bikes to work in January? Hell, no. They can't afford not to. But, if you have enough money, you can live anyway you want.

Wife's friend, he stayed on their Dairy Farm when she was a kid. They denied a knee replacement at 82. Why? Too old. Better use of resources on the young. People are flying to the US to get cancer treatment because under the Danish Health System, they determine who to spend the resources on. You may get it, 6 months or 2 years later, depend on the formula.

You and this Board would NEVER stand for a Danish style of Government.

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I think that basically describes most of Europe in Canada as well. Probably Australia & New Zealand too. If you're rich, it's tolerable because you can afford to pay the extra fees gif everything. If you are not rich, like most people, than you have a raw deal. That's why the ratchet up the climate cult propaganda to keep the peasants in line. And yet the elites fly around on private jets to Davos & other places trying to figure out how to control of our lives. The fascists are evil hypocrites.

Rationed health care and a propaganda "educational system" lying to students every day about the climate cult, the trans cult, the economy, history, and almost everything else are a part of the mix.

Our fascists (aka the "Democrats" who don't want the people to decide) want the same for the US.
more of our lives.

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I alway find this argument a bit bogus. I have tons of European friends and they are all happy with their care and the relative cost. This "socialized medicine " Is just total BS. We are the only industrialized country in the world that relies on businesses to provide a significant contribution to healthcare. That came during WW2, where companies manufacturing war material offered healthcare to entice workers to fill the gap relative to speeding up production. I have studied this a lot. This whole "socialized medicine" is nothing more than the brilliant insurance and Pharma lobby raping all of us. I have been on the compensation committee in a $15B public company and am now self ensured, with a preexisting condition. What an effing racket.

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No. We spend as much on defense as the rest of our combined domestic spend. We have paid for western Europes defense and Israel's defense for the last 80 years. That is why those countries are able to afford such generous social welfare programs and free medical.

Real American tax payers are the most fcked over people on the face of the earth

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I guess you don't know how the world works. Why we give aid. Oh, yeah, let's just keep to ourselves and get totally effed. Incredibly short sighted. Mix in other perspectives other the crazy azz Trump and Fox News. Always to to have different perspectives.

The_barBEARian said:

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It is in *my*, and most likely yours too, best interest to drill baby, drill! And become energy independent. Which North America is more than capable of.

America's involvement in the middle east is only beneficial to Israeli lobbyists and Zionist Jews. If you are one of those two things, I understand you reticence to alter our suicidal foreign policy.

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Sir, quit parenting Trump your hero. Drill Baby Drill is total BS. We are producing more oil today than we ever have. We have never and never will be "energy independent". That is crap from Trump. This is what I do for a living and I think I know how things work. You obviously don't and neither does Trump. Trump started the bleeding of the SPR for votes to bring down gasoline prices so he could get re-elected. That is not good for the business . Biden continued for the same reason. We now are under 50%. Hell , both of them wanted us to refill based on a $50/barrell price. Screw that it is $75 now and we aren't taking a dollar less than the price.

J.R. said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Just because it's small relative to all the other more useful spending doesn't excuse the fact that it is completely 100% extraneous, inane waste of money that provides negligible benefit to the average tax payer.

So far your argument for continuing aid to Israel can be summed up with: "They're my friend!"

---

So, give us your foreign policy? Where do we fit in the world? Is there anyone that the US should help?

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No foreign aid. No foreign wars. Fair Trade.

America first. American citizens first. And American tax payers really, really come first.

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that is the most uninformed take I have heard lately. What rock did you crawl from? Let me guess, you are an angry white dude in his 20s how has not a lot of work experience and spends too much time in front of Fox News.

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If we can't achieve energy independence with the great resources at our disposal then we need to reduce the population to a sustainable level by removing birthright citizenship and ceasing all immigration.

And yeah I'm angry. The average Israeli citizen get about 100x more assistance from my own government than I do. But unlike Israel's politcal lobbying in DC the only handout I am asking for is tax cuts.