We can start with you not editing my response.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

---

What exactly do you think my "echo chamber" is?

I'm literally just googling "Gaza war casualties"

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

---

What exactly do you think my "echo chamber" is?

I'm literally just googling "Gaza war casualties"

---

Just a thought, if you want to convince others you're not in an echo chamber, you probably shouldn't use an article from a news organization from the same echo chamber.....which you found using a search engine also from the same echo chamber.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

---

What exactly do you think my "echo chamber" is?

I'm literally just googling "Gaza war casualties"

---

Just a thought, if you want to convince others you're not in an echo chamber, you probably shouldn't use an article from a news organization from the same echo chamber..

---

I simply used it as an example of what comes up when you search casualties in this war.

And while the NYT is the paper of record for American liberalism it is not a fringe eco-chamber outlet

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

---

What exactly do you think my "echo chamber" is?

I'm literally just googling "Gaza war casualties"

---

Virtually (maybe literally) every article I read from every political perspective cites Hamas' numbers and more often than not includes some kind of disclaimer.

BTW, I have no idea how many have died in Gaza. I know that Hamas lies about everything, and I know innocents are being killed. Beyond that, I don't think anyone could accurately estimate within 50%.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

---

What exactly do you think my "echo chamber" is?

I'm literally just googling "Gaza war casualties"

---

Virtually (maybe literally) every article I read from every political perspective cites Hamas' numbers and more often than not includes some kind of disclaimer.

BTW, I have no idea how many have died in Gaza. I know that Hamas lies about everything, and I know innocents are being killed. Beyond that, I don't think anyone could accurately estimate within 50%.

---

Can you find any reputable news outlet they doubts 30,000 Palestinians have been killed?

Right now no one but the IDF seems to be denying that number is a reasonable estimate for Palestinians killed.

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

sombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

You think the UN is a lying terrorist organization?

[The humanitarian situation in Gaza has been termed a "crisis" and a "catastrophe". The entire population in the Gaza Strip is classified in Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) Phase 3 - Crisis, or above. 50% of the population is in IPC Phase 4 - Emergency, and 25% is in IPC Phase 5 - Catastrophe. More than 23,000 have been killed. As a result of Israel's blockade, Gaza faces shortages of fuel, food, medication, water, and medical supplies. The blockade resulted in a 90% drop in electricity availability, impacting hospital power supplies, sewage plants, and shutting down desalination plants that provide drinking water. According to WHO, 27 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza were shut down by 23 November 2023. On 13 October, UNRWA commissioner Philippe Lazzarini said, "The scale and speed of the unfolding humanitarian crisis is bone-chilling".]

---

Actually, yes.

.

---

Uh ok

So how are we supposed to have a discussion about the war if the only people you believe are Mossad and the IDF?

---

There are plenty of discussions to be had, and none require taking the Hamas health ministry's #s at face value.

.

---

Did the UN take the health ministry #s at face value or come up with their own?

I don't think anyone (other than you) has denied that Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians.

---

You need to step outside your echo chamber. Even pro-Palestinian analysts dispute their #s. I suppose you buy Putin's #s hook line and sinker also.

---

What exactly do you think my "echo chamber" is?

I'm literally just googling "Gaza war casualties"

---

Virtually (maybe literally) every article I read from every political perspective cites Hamas' numbers and more often than not includes some kind of disclaimer.

BTW, I have no idea how many have died in Gaza. I know that Hamas lies about everything, and I know innocents are being killed. Beyond that, I don't think anyone could accurately estimate within 50%.

---

There are also questions about how the IDF counts potential combatants vs civilians.


[To try to contextualize and make sense of the claims and counterclaims, I reached out to Sarah Parkinson of Johns Hopkins SAIS. She has deeply researched these questions in Lebanon and a range of other Middle East wars, and is also one of the sharpest, clearest and most original thinkers in our field. Our conversation has now been published at Good Authority (the TMC successor you should all be following). It ranges widely over the logistics of casualty counting and the critically relevant academic literature on the topic. Following many others in the academic literature, she highlights the ways in which a focus on numbers can distract attention from the humanity of the victims and how arguments over necessarily imprecise numbers become a way to distract from the crushing reality of mass civilian death and displacement.

Midway through our conversation, Parkinson points out one of the most glaring problems with the way "civilian" is defined: the studies assume that all men between 18-59 are potential combatants. That's horrifying and absurd, to put it mildly. Parkinson doesn't talk about this in our conversation, but if it's true (as the IDF claims) that Hamas has 30,000 fighters in Gaza, then this method would almost certainly lump many hundreds of thousands of civilian men into the number of "Hamas militants" reportedly killed. Just recall those humiliating photos and videos of Gazan men in their underwear being presented as "Hamas surrendering"; the IDF later admitted that "of the hundreds of Palestinian detainees photographed handcuffed in the Gaza Strip in recent days, about 10-15 percent are Hamas operatives or identified with the group." Consider the work that "or identified with the group" is doing in that acknowledgement… and then work backward to the claim of 5000 "Hamas militants" killed. As Parkinson puts it, "Out of respect for basic human rights and humanity, media reports should emphasize that Palestinian men can be, and mostly are, civilians."]

historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Israel is defending itself against genocidal terrorists. Stop with the Hamas propaganda already.

---

Then our own Secretary of Defrnse is promoting Hamas propaganda.

Otherwise one cannot not reasonably support killing over 25,000 people to avenge the murder of 1400 .

Enough blood has been shed

Time to call for a ceasefire.

If Israel wishes to continue the war, let them do so without the complicity of US taxpayers.

---

Considering our own Secretaries of State & of Defense are more concerned with gender ideology than promoting American interests that might be the case. Biden himself has been trying to force Israel to accept a ceasefire, essentially to surrender to Hamas. So that unfortunate failure by our fascist leaders is quite possible.

Enough with the Islamofascist propaganda. It's a war between civilization & barbarism. The genocidal Hamas must be defeated. Israel must win this war for the sake of everyone.

---

Israel can not win this war.

They can only lose the peace.

And slaughtering an additional 50,000 people won't change anything.

---

What is this peace of which you speak . . . .

---

Israel needs peace almost as badly as the people in what's left of Gaza. There military mobilization hurts their economy and religious tourism is way down. And everyone in that region needed tourism to return after 2 years of Covid restrictions.

Even a bad peace is better than the useless deaths of another 25.000 people.

---

But there was never peace.. Hamas plotted Oct 7 for years while pretending to work with Israel. Hamas not only is unapologetic but brags they will do it again and go even further. Israel cannot have that kind of enemy next door. So Israel sees this as either Hamas surrenders or is destroyed, even if that means destruction of most of Gaza and tens of thousands of deaths.

---

Israel has go choice but to have that kind of enemy' next door.

As they simply can't kill all the Muslims who hate them.

It is time to see things as they are and can't be changed .

Make peace while they still can .

---

They have solid Muslim relationships. It's only the nut jobs that want to destroy them. Again I ask, what does "peace" look like with Hamas still intact next door?Effect

---

Effectively the same peace they've shared over the decades.

A violent one.

---

That happens when your neighbors want to destroy your country and kill every last person. Hamas literally is genocidal.

---

If solders from another country forced you to remain in an incredibly small strip of land with 2 million other individuals , effectively controlled your ability for any kind of employment, then destroyed your hovel via air strikes killing your wife and children in the process………

wouldn't you want revenge ?

sombear said:

---

Note that I have not cited IDF #s. Has it even released numbers? I wouldn't trust those either.

The bottom line is that, in Gaza, even in peace time, there are few true journalists there. They're too afraid of being killed, and Hamas wouldn't allow most in any way. That is why it turned out so many "journalists" reporting on Oct 7 were affiliated with Hamas and in multiple cases, actually helped commit the atrocities.

In my view, however, it really does not matter in the bigger picture debate whether the # is 5000, 15,000, or 30,000. A lot of innocents are being killed, period. That has been the case in every major war. If you require Israel to respond proportionately and/or to place their own forces at greater risk, then all of those are far too many. If you believe Israel has the right to not only respond but eradicate Hamas, or force its surrender, and to protect Israel in the future, then 30,000 isn't too many.

That sounds harsh, but most folks aren't changing their minds either way based on number counts.

I find it interesting that those who tell Israel to pack up and go home aren't telling Putin to do the same thing. And those emphasizing the Hamas death estimates but saying nothing about Putin's massacres or indiscriminate bombings of apartments and other residential areas far away from the lines.

At least Israel has an argument that the way Hamas "fights" makes it impossible to avoid civilian casualties. Putin has no such dilemma. He's simply a butcher who gets off on killing people he believes are not a true people in the first place.

---

Excellent post

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

Israel is defending itself against genocidal terrorists. Stop with the Hamas propaganda already.

---

Then our own Secretary of Defrnse is promoting Hamas propaganda.

Otherwise one cannot not reasonably support killing over 25,000 people to avenge the murder of 1400 .

Enough blood has been shed

Time to call for a ceasefire.

If Israel wishes to continue the war, let them do so without the complicity of US taxpayers.

---

Considering our own Secretaries of State & of Defense are more concerned with gender ideology than promoting American interests that might be the case. Biden himself has been trying to force Israel to accept a ceasefire, essentially to surrender to Hamas. So that unfortunate failure by our fascist leaders is quite possible.

Enough with the Islamofascist propaganda. It's a war between civilization & barbarism. The genocidal Hamas must be defeated. Israel must win this war for the sake of everyone.

---

Israel can not win this war.

They can only lose the peace.

And slaughtering an additional 50,000 people won't change anything.

---

What is this peace of which you speak . . . .

---

Israel needs peace almost as badly as the people in what's left of Gaza. There military mobilization hurts their economy and religious tourism is way down. And everyone in that region needed tourism to return after 2 years of Covid restrictions.

Even a bad peace is better than the useless deaths of another 25.000 people.

---

But there was never peace.. Hamas plotted Oct 7 for years while pretending to work with Israel. Hamas not only is unapologetic but brags they will do it again and go even further. Israel cannot have that kind of enemy next door. So Israel sees this as either Hamas surrenders or is destroyed, even if that means destruction of most of Gaza and tens of thousands of deaths.

---

Israel has go choice but to have that kind of enemy' next door.

As they simply can't kill all the Muslims who hate them.

It is time to see things as they are and can't be changed .

Make peace while they still can .

---

They have solid Muslim relationships. It's only the nut jobs that want to destroy them. Again I ask, what does "peace" look like with Hamas still intact next door?Effect

---

Effectively the same peace they've shared over the decades.

A violent one.

---

That happens when your neighbors want to destroy your country and kill every last person. Hamas literally is genocidal.

---

If solders from another country forced you to remain in an incredibly small strip of land with 2 million other individuals , effectively controlled your ability for any kind of employment, then destroyed your hovel via air strikes killing your wife and children in the process………

wouldn't you want revenge ?

---

If your soldiers start a war you lose your right to complain about the consequences. See Dresden & Hiroshima

Video of the U.S. dropping humanitarian aid for Gaza by parachute.

They also dropped MREs, which stay edible for years.

Via @MarioNawfal pic.twitter.com/ZZrejvp4K9

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) March 3, 2024

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

Israel is defending itself against genocidal terrorists. Stop with the Hamas propaganda already.

---

Then our own Secretary of Defrnse is promoting Hamas propaganda.

Otherwise one cannot not reasonably support killing over 25,000 people to avenge the murder of 1400 .

Enough blood has been shed

Time to call for a ceasefire.

If Israel wishes to continue the war, let them do so without the complicity of US taxpayers.

---

Considering our own Secretaries of State & of Defense are more concerned with gender ideology than promoting American interests that might be the case. Biden himself has been trying to force Israel to accept a ceasefire, essentially to surrender to Hamas. So that unfortunate failure by our fascist leaders is quite possible.

Enough with the Islamofascist propaganda. It's a war between civilization & barbarism. The genocidal Hamas must be defeated. Israel must win this war for the sake of everyone.

---

Israel can not win this war.

They can only lose the peace.

And slaughtering an additional 50,000 people won't change anything.

---

What is this peace of which you speak . . . .

---

Israel needs peace almost as badly as the people in what's left of Gaza. There military mobilization hurts their economy and religious tourism is way down. And everyone in that region needed tourism to return after 2 years of Covid restrictions.

Even a bad peace is better than the useless deaths of another 25.000 people.

---

But there was never peace.. Hamas plotted Oct 7 for years while pretending to work with Israel. Hamas not only is unapologetic but brags they will do it again and go even further. Israel cannot have that kind of enemy next door. So Israel sees this as either Hamas surrenders or is destroyed, even if that means destruction of most of Gaza and tens of thousands of deaths.

---

Israel has go choice but to have that kind of enemy' next door.

As they simply can't kill all the Muslims who hate them.

It is time to see things as they are and can't be changed .

Make peace while they still can .

---

They have solid Muslim relationships. It's only the nut jobs that want to destroy them. Again I ask, what does "peace" look like with Hamas still intact next door?Effect

---

Effectively the same peace they've shared over the decades.

A violent one.

---

That happens when your neighbors want to destroy your country and kill every last person. Hamas literally is genocidal.

---

If solders from another country forced you to remain in an incredibly small strip of land with 2 million other individuals , effectively controlled your ability for any kind of employment, then destroyed your hovel via air strikes killing your wife and children in the process………

wouldn't you want revenge ?

---

What you really meant to say is that:

(1) Israel actually is more than 20% Arab;
(2) Israel allows hundreds of thousands more on work permits (many of whom murdered and/or provided intel on Oct 7);
(3) Israel and its citizens were donating and investing $ hundreds of millions in Gaza, its people, and its businesses (while Hamas planned Oct 7 for years I might add);
(4) it is Arab nations that force Palestinians to stay there; and
(5) Hamas wastes $ billions that could to the Gazan economy on tunnels, weapons, and riches for Hamas and its leaders;….

---

All these lists (while factual) just tell us the Israeli State is better than Hamas (a radical Islamist movement)

Something no one has argued against.

The question is how much of Gaza does the IDF get to bomb out of existence and how many innocent Palestinians do they get to kill before some sort of cease fire is worked out?

The answer can not be…"kill them all, even the women and children"

Israel has every right to bomb Gaza into the Stone Age after what Hamas did on October 7. It is the civilized response to the incredible barbarism of genocidal Hamas.

They must destroy an enemy that seeks their total annihilation.

Existential crisis. Look it up.

historian said:

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You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

It is a pattern. He also told me that we should have called off the invasion of Iraq because Sadaams Genrals said they didn't have WMD. Putin is justified in his Special Military Operation.

It seems to be a thing to believe the bad guys. Sadaam used WMDs numerous times, overlook. Putin rolled 200k troops over the Ukraine border, overlook. Hamas slaughters Jews and won't let people leave, overlook.

FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

---

It is a pattern. He also told me that we should have called off the invasion of Iraq because Sadaams Genrals…

---

Now you're just a lair.

I said the CIA was incompetent and wrong about their intelligence.

That is a true statement.

One that you are butthurt about for some strange reason

Does your boyfriend work for the CIA?

historian said:

---

Israel has every right to bomb Gaza into the Stone Age…

Existential crisis. Look it up.

---

You think Israel (a nuclear armed nation state with 9 million people and a 1st world economy) is in a "existential" struggle with a small poor area the size of Austin, controlled by some islamist idiots, that can only muster 30,000 fighters armed with AK-47s?

Hamas is stupid to attack Israel…but it's not an existential threat.

Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

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It is a pattern. He also told me that we should have called off the invasion of Iraq because Sadaams Genrals…

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Now you're just a lair.

I said the CIA was incompetent and wrong about their intelligence.

That is a true statement.

One that you are butthurt about for some strange reason

Does your boyfriend work for the CIA?

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You are hanging a whole agency out for one instance that turned out to not be correct. We do not disagree on whether the WMDs were there or not, in 2003 they ended up not being there still.

I disagree that incompetence that led to it. As I stated, you guys forget the post-911 years. We just had the Twin Towers destroyed. There were several other attempts that were swarded. Sadaam said he reconstituted in 1998 and provided no evidence that what he had was destroyed. And his history of using WMDs. Trick or Treating with Cops parked at every intersection. All played into the reading of the evidence as such that it was worth invading.

Read what Graham, who voted against the war, said. The dissent was in the analysis, it was ruled "Moderate Confidence". The vote was made and we live with it. Sorry, I do not hold this type of mistake against an agency. Lazy politicians? Yeah. An Administration scared to have a 2nd event on their watch? Yeah. A leader in Iraq that didn't want to admit he had nothing. Yeah.

As for lying, you sure seem quick to give everyone but the US the benefit of the doubt. Seems to be a constant thing. So, I am going to ask you, since you asked me about loving the intelligence community, what did the US do to you to make you not believe anything. A Baylor education, good job, doesn't seem to terrible.

Incompetence? No. Deep State conspiracy to get the oil or contracts. No.


U.S. Intelligence on WMDs in Iraq - FactCheck.org

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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sombear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Israel is defending itself against genocidal terrorists. Stop with the Hamas propaganda already.

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Then our own Secretary of Defrnse is promoting Hamas propaganda.

Otherwise one cannot not reasonably support killing over 25,000 people to avenge the murder of 1400 .

Enough blood has been shed

Time to call for a ceasefire.

If Israel wishes to continue the war, let them do so without the complicity of US taxpayers.

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Considering our own Secretaries of State & of Defense are more concerned with gender ideology than promoting American interests that might be the case. Biden himself has been trying to force Israel to accept a ceasefire, essentially to surrender to Hamas. So that unfortunate failure by our fascist leaders is quite possible.

Enough with the Islamofascist propaganda. It's a war between civilization & barbarism. The genocidal Hamas must be defeated. Israel must win this war for the sake of everyone.

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Israel can not win this war.

They can only lose the peace.

And slaughtering an additional 50,000 people won't change anything.

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What is this peace of which you speak . . . .

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Israel needs peace almost as badly as the people in what's left of Gaza. There military mobilization hurts their economy and religious tourism is way down. And everyone in that region needed tourism to return after 2 years of Covid restrictions.

Even a bad peace is better than the useless deaths of another 25.000 people.

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But there was never peace.. Hamas plotted Oct 7 for years while pretending to work with Israel. Hamas not only is unapologetic but brags they will do it again and go even further. Israel cannot have that kind of enemy next door. So Israel sees this as either Hamas surrenders or is destroyed, even if that means destruction of most of Gaza and tens of thousands of deaths.

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Israel has go choice but to have that kind of enemy' next door.

As they simply can't kill all the Muslims who hate them.

It is time to see things as they are and can't be changed .

Make peace while they still can .

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They have solid Muslim relationships. It's only the nut jobs that want to destroy them. Again I ask, what does "peace" look like with Hamas still intact next door?Effect

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Effectively the same peace they've shared over the decades.

A violent one.

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That happens when your neighbors want to destroy your country and kill every last person. Hamas literally is genocidal.

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If solders from another country forced you to remain in an incredibly small strip of land with 2 million other individuals , effectively controlled your ability for any kind of employment, then destroyed your hovel via air strikes killing your wife and children in the process………

wouldn't you want revenge ?

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What you really meant to say is that:

(1) Israel actually is more than 20% Arab;
(2) Israel allows hundreds of thousands more on work permits (many of whom murdered and/or provided intel on Oct 7);
(3) Israel and its citizens were donating and investing $ hundreds of millions in Gaza, its people, and its businesses (while Hamas planned Oct 7 for years I might add);
(4) it is Arab nations that force Palestinians to stay there; and
(5) Hamas wastes $ billions that could to the Gazan economy on tunnels, weapons, and riches for Hamas and its leaders;….

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All these lists (while factual) just tell us the Israeli State is better than Hamas (a radical Islamist movement)

Something no one has argued against.

The question is how much of Gaza does the IDF get to bomb out of existence and how many innocent Palestinians do they get to kill before some sort of cease fire is worked out?

The answer can not be…"kill them all, even the women and children"

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No, I was responding the post claiming Israel was forcing Gazans to stay in Gaza and to live in miserable conditions.

Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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Israel has every right to bomb Gaza into the Stone Age…

Existential crisis. Look it up.

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You think Israel (a nuclear armed nation state with 9 million people and a 1st world economy) is in a "existential" struggle with a small poor area the size of Austin, controlled by some islamist idiots, that can only muster 30,000 fighters armed with AK-47s?

Hamas is stupid to attack Israel…but it's not an existential threat.

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They are fighting an enemy that wants to completely destroy them and will try at every opportunity. Hamas is also well provided for by Iran, a nation with lots of petrodollars, plus "humanitarian" aid from the UN & plenty of antisemitism western governments, including our own.

So, yes they are in an existential struggle. They would be idiots not to take it seriously and they are not idiots. The Hamas apologists in the west might be as they continue to echo the terrorists' propaganda & engage in all kinds of childish behavior to support genocide against Jews. Morons.

FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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You are making ridiculous assumptions based upon the lies of terrorists

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It is a pattern. He also told me that we should have called off the invasion of Iraq because Sadaams Genrals…

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Now you're just a lair.

I said the CIA was incompetent and wrong about their intelligence.

That is a true statement.

One that you are butthurt about for some strange reason

Does your boyfriend work for the CIA?

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You are hanging a whole agency out for one instance that turned out to not be correct…

Lazy politicians? Yeah. An Administration scared to have a 2nd event on their watch? Yeah. A leader in Iraq that didn't want to admit he had nothing…


U.S. Intelligence on WMDs in Iraq - FactCheck.org

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Speaking of the wars against Saddam's iraq.

DC insiders picked a real swell "ally" over there lol

During the Gulf War, the US had a command center in Saudi Arabia defending them from Saddam. When Saddam was observed firing missiles at Israel, the Saudi officers started cheering and yelling Allahu Akbar. pic.twitter.com/cahfoPmqhP

— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) March 3, 2024

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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It's not about revenge. It's about survival. Hamas exists to destroy Israel & murder Jews. They are the genocidal force in this conflict. They must be destroyed so that they can never threaten Israel again. Israel is totally justified in their conduct of the war.

It's an existential crisis for Israel and anyone chanting "From the river to the sea" is also genocidal and not to be trusted. Anyone calling for a ceasefire on any terms other then Israel's is the same. Antisemitism is rampant, on the rise, and NEVER justified. (Harvard anyone?)

It's uncivilized and unintelligent. It's a fraudulent argument. Can I be any more emphatic?

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With respect

I don't believe killing the entire population of Gaza will insure everlasting peace for the Jewish State .

If Hamas isn't willing to reach a truce at this point ; killing another 20000-40,000 individuals probably won't matter either.

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It's a fallacy to think that Hamas can be negotiated with, or will honor any negotiated agreement.
Hamas doesn't want to live in peace.
The only hope for any kind of peace is to eradicate them completely.

ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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It's not about revenge. It's about survival. Hamas exists to destroy Israel & murder Jews. They are the genocidal force in this conflict. They must be destroyed so that they can never threaten Israel again. Israel is totally justified in their conduct of the war.

It's an existential crisis for Israel and anyone chanting "From the river to the sea" is also genocidal and not to be trusted. Anyone calling for a ceasefire on any terms other then Israel's is the same. Antisemitism is rampant, on the rise, and NEVER justified. (Harvard anyone?)

It's uncivilized and unintelligent. It's a fraudulent argument. Can I be any more emphatic?

---

With respect

I don't believe killing the entire population of Gaza will insure everlasting peace for the Jewish State .

If Hamas isn't willing to reach a truce at this point ; killing another 20000-40,000 individuals probably won't matter either.

---

It's a fallacy to think that Hamas can be negotiated with, or will honor any negotiated agreement.
Hamas doesn't want to live in peace.
The only hope for any kind of peace is to eradicate them completely.

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Then you must be willing to eradicate all the orphans in Gaza.

As many will certainly grow up seeking revenge for the deaths of their Mothers and Fathers.

KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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It's not about revenge. It's about survival. Hamas exists to destroy Israel & murder Jews. They are the genocidal force in this conflict. They must be destroyed so that they can never threaten Israel again. Israel is totally justified in their conduct of the war.

It's an existential crisis for Israel and anyone chanting "From the river to the sea" is also genocidal and not to be trusted. Anyone calling for a ceasefire on any terms other then Israel's is the same. Antisemitism is rampant, on the rise, and NEVER justified. (Harvard anyone?)

It's uncivilized and unintelligent. It's a fraudulent argument. Can I be any more emphatic?

---

With respect

I don't believe killing the entire population of Gaza will insure everlasting peace for the Jewish State .

If Hamas isn't willing to reach a truce at this point ; killing another 20000-40,000 individuals probably won't matter either.

---

It's a fallacy to think that Hamas can be negotiated with, or will honor any negotiated agreement.
Hamas doesn't want to live in peace.
The only hope for any kind of peace is to eradicate them completely.

---

Then you must be willing to eradicate all the orphans in Gaza.

As many will certainly grow up seeking revenge for the deaths of their Mothers and Fathers.

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That's not true. People have often made this claim that hardship creates terrorists... not true. Plenty of terrorists have come out of affluent households in Britain. It is just the evil that results from the demonic religion of Islam.

If those orphans are educated and raised in a civilized culture... they won't become terrorists.

ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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It's not about revenge. It's about survival. Hamas exists to destroy Israel & murder Jews. They are the genocidal force in this conflict. They must be destroyed so that they can never threaten Israel again. Israel is totally justified in their conduct of the war.

It's an existential crisis for Israel and anyone chanting "From the river to the sea" is also genocidal and not to be trusted. Anyone calling for a ceasefire on any terms other then Israel's is the same. Antisemitism is rampant, on the rise, and NEVER justified. (Harvard anyone?)

It's uncivilized and unintelligent. It's a fraudulent argument. Can I be any more emphatic?

---

With respect

I don't believe killing the entire population of Gaza will insure everlasting peace for the Jewish State .

If Hamas isn't willing to reach a truce at this point ; killing another 20000-40,000 individuals probably won't matter either.

---

It's a fallacy to think that Hamas can be negotiated with, or will honor any negotiated agreement.
Hamas doesn't want to live in peace.
The only hope for any kind of peace is to eradicate them completely.

---

Then you must be willing to eradicate all the orphans in Gaza.

As many will certainly grow up seeking revenge for the deaths of their Mothers and Fathers.

---

That's not true. People have often made this claim that hardship creates terrorists... not true. Plenty of terrorists have come out of affluent households in Britain. It is just the evil that results from the demonic religion of Islam.

If those orphans are educated and raised in a civilized culture... they won't become terrorists.

---

It is currently exceedingly difficult to legally emigrate from Gaza.

The more people the Israelis kill the more Hamas recruits they are going to generate.


So either Israel needs to slaughter them all, somehow coerce Egypt to accept the survivors as legal refugees or make a peace treaty giving the Palestinians their own state.

And none of these options is likely to happen.


So the misery goes on.

FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

---

It's not about revenge. It's about survival. Hamas exists to destroy Israel & murder Jews. They are the genocidal force in this conflict. They must be destroyed so that they can never threaten Israel again. Israel is totally justified in their conduct of the war.

It's an existential crisis for Israel and anyone chanting "From the river to the sea" is also genocidal and not to be trusted. Anyone calling for a ceasefire on any terms other then Israel's is the same. Antisemitism is rampant, on the rise, and NEVER justified. (Harvard anyone?)

It's uncivilized and unintelligent. It's a fraudulent argument. Can I be any more emphatic?

---

With respect

I don't believe killing the entire population of Gaza will insure everlasting peace for the Jewish State .

If Hamas isn't willing to reach a truce at this point ; killing another 20000-40,000 individuals probably won't matter either.

---

It's a fallacy to think that Hamas can be negotiated with, or will honor any negotiated agreement.
Hamas doesn't want to live in peace.
The only hope for any kind of peace is to eradicate them completely.

---

Then you must be willing to eradicate all the orphans in Gaza.

As many will certainly grow up seeking revenge for the deaths of their Mothers and Fathers.

---

That's not true. People have often made this claim that hardship creates terrorists... not true. Plenty of terrorists have come out of affluent households in Britain. It is just the evil that results from the demonic religion of Islam.

If those orphans are educated and raised in a civilized culture... they won't become terrorists.

---

It is currently exceedingly difficult to legally emigrate from Gaza.

The more people the Israelis kill the more Hamas recruits they are going to generate.


So either Israel needs to slaughter them all, somehow coerce Egypt to accept the survivors as legal refugees or make a peace treaty giving the Palestinians their own state.

And none of these options is likely to happen.


So the misery goes on.

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Yet the Gaza population voted for Hamas, Hamas keeps attacking Israel and complains when they lose and Israel responds. Maybe these people need to not support Hamas .

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Crowed, under employed, desperate people make desperate choices.

As long as the people can't legally escape from Gaza , in their misery they will continue to lash out.

So either commit genicide on every man, women and child in Gaza, give them their own state ( which is unlikely to bring a lasting peace ) or somehow convince the rest of the Muslim world to accept theim as refugees.

Mass deportation of all Gazans to Qatar. That's where the leaders of Hamas live in luxury & safety. Also, hasn't Qatar been supporting them financially for years? Let both Qatar & the Hamas leaders prove themselves by taking care of these people. It's probably a recipe for disaster but at least it will be in a place where it belongs.

FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

It's not about revenge. It's about survival. Hamas exists to destroy Israel & murder Jews. They are the genocidal force in this conflict. They must be destroyed so that they can never threaten Israel again. Israel is totally justified in their conduct of the war.

It's an existential crisis for Israel and anyone chanting "From the river to the sea" is also genocidal and not to be trusted. Anyone calling for a ceasefire on any terms other then Israel's is the same. Antisemitism is rampant, on the rise, and NEVER justified. (Harvard anyone?)

It's uncivilized and unintelligent. It's a fraudulent argument. Can I be any more emphatic?

---

With respect

I don't believe killing the entire population of Gaza will insure everlasting peace for the Jewish State .

If Hamas isn't willing to reach a truce at this point ; killing another 20000-40,000 individuals probably won't matter either.

---

It's a fallacy to think that Hamas can be negotiated with, or will honor any negotiated agreement.
Hamas doesn't want to live in peace.
The only hope for any kind of peace is to eradicate them completely.

---

Then you must be willing to eradicate all the orphans in Gaza.

As many will certainly grow up seeking revenge for the deaths of their Mothers and Fathers.

---

That's not true. People have often made this claim that hardship creates terrorists... not true. Plenty of terrorists have come out of affluent households in Britain. It is just the evil that results from the demonic religion of Islam.

If those orphans are educated and raised in a civilized culture... they won't become terrorists.

---

It is currently exceedingly difficult to legally emigrate from Gaza.

The more people the Israelis kill the more Hamas recruits they are going to generate.


So either Israel needs to slaughter them all, somehow coerce Egypt to accept the survivors as legal refugees or make a peace treaty giving the Palestinians their own state.

And none of these options is likely to happen.


So the misery goes on.

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Yet the Gaza population voted for Hamas.. .

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Half the population of Gaza is under the age of 16.

Hamas won a single election 17 years ago and has refused to give up power.

Let's not act like the people in Gaza are re-electing Hamas on a yearly basis.


"Only a fraction of the territory's population today cast a ballot for Hamas. But the vote 17 years ago has been invoked as justification for ..."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-election-hamas-2006-palestine-israel/