FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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muddybrazos said:

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boognish_bear said:

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We stand by allies, we don’t second guess them. Biden’s dithering on Israel weapons is bad policy and a terrible message to Israel, our allies, and the world.

— Mitt Romney (@MittRomney) May 8, 2024

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Why? Israel cant do a war without us paying for it? F that, call the Rothschilds and get some money.

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I do wonder how Israel and can be a 1st world state with a strong economy and nuclear weapons…but it just can't seem to fund a military without massive infusions of American taxpayer cash

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Keep in mind virtually all "aid" is military funding the vast majority of which Israel must use to purchase back from U.S. and it's a low % of Israel's defense budget. Israel is surrounded by hostiles, and it takes a lot. Could they do it in their own? Sure. But we help many of our allies without the same reciprocal requirements. And we get a lot from Israel in return - intel, tech, and economic.

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Please explicitly detail what we recieve in return from Israel. I want hard numbers and citations.

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Impossible to quantify intel and related sharing of course. Trade with Israel is about 1% is all U.S. trade. IT Software/Hardware, medical devices, and pharma are some of the more important imports.

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a good thumbnail sketch.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-us-gains-israel-alliance

But that really doesn't scratch the surface. Having allies who are in constant conflict, on constant high alert gives your defense contractors real-time feedback on weapons system development. Giving your equipment to people who will immediately use it in real-world conflict find the weaknesses in design, limitations on logistics, and needs for new capabilities. Plus, having outlets to sell those systems helps keep your defense contractors financially alive, so they'll be available for your own needs when your own war breaks out.

And don't undersell the value of the intel sharing. Israel runs human source operations in places we rarely every have any. islamic states are very, very tough places to operate for non-natives....

The return we get on what we give Israel per year is very high quality. It's quite rare when your proxies are as capable as you are. Israel is a defacto screening force which engages targets that would otherwise be primarily focused against us.

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Israel gives, or did, give, the US an allie in the Med and ME. Along with Saudi/Baharain/UAE a base in an important part of the world. But, Biden and Dems don't value that area, after all wins and sun will be the answer.

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I would say that being allies with Egypt (about 46 times bigger in size and with 100 million more people) is far more important for the United States.

Let's be honest that US support for Israel is based on internal U.S. political views/opinions and has little to do with actual geo-strategic concerns.

Israel simply does not offer much that other players in the region don't offer…and many offer much more

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What a profoundly blind assumption.

The most loyal ally you have is the small country, the isolated country, the people who need you for reasons beyond the amount you spend on them. Israel is all of that and more. Also quite productive. Look what they've done with $3b/yr versus what Egypt has one with $1.5b.

Not one regional state other than Turkey could offer us anything remotely approaching the value and loyalty we get from Israel, in no small part because every one of those regional states, including Turkey, would turn Congress into a mosque if they could.

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There is a lot of emotion tied up in Israel. You cannot discount that "emotional" and commitment investment. To now look at other Nations and say, shift from Israel to Turkey or Saudi disregards the political position. That investment weighs heavy.

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I'd assert "emotion" is a bit too narrow of a concept. There's religious, philosophical, cultural ties there that run all the way to the bone.

when we talk about "Western Civilization," we are talking about Judeo-Christian values.

historian said:

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Turkey is been a less reliable ally over the past few years, a trend that is continuing.

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yes, islamist sentiments of the Erdogan regime have created some frustrations. But they are still Nato members, and that limits how far they can stray.

I'm not do sure about that

historian said:

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I'm not do sure about that

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Nato membership inherently limits what members can do unilaterally, or even in coalition. Were it not for Nato, there'd already be armies from several European nations deployed in battle against Russia.

Russia knows this, of course. Nato cannot intervene in Ukraine without a unanimous vote. Nato members cannot just say "screw it" and go out on their own. That is the context one has to put the French statements that they are willing to deploy French combat troops to Ukraine.....they are trying to signal to Nato members that it's time to think about doing it, and to Russia not to overplay their hand or it will happen.

I think Putin treats that as a hollow bluff.

But no doubt that Putin would have calculated Ukraine differently had Nato not existed. Would have made things a lot more cloudy, and a lot more risky.

That's the irony of Nato. It is almost invulnerable to direct attack, but a paper tiger in every other respect.

Just another reminder that Islam is evil.

And yes, this kind of thing happens in Gaza and the West Bank too.

Muslims are freakin evil, and it's beyond time for the West to stand against them all.

Old Afghan man buys a small child to marry.

This is Islam .

Islam makes these actions legal under sharia, when you hear Muslims calling for sharia, this is what they want to implement. pic.twitter.com/tL45DrOddx

— Tommy Robinson 🇬🇧 (@TRobinsonNewEra) May 14, 2024

ShooterTX said:

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Just another reminder that Islam is evil.

And yes, this kind of thing happens in Gaza and the West Bank too.

Muslims are freakin evil, and it's beyond time for the West to stand against them all.

Old Afghan man buys a small child to marry.

This is Islam .

Islam makes these actions legal under sharia, when you hear Muslims calling for sharia, this is what they want to implement. pic.twitter.com/tL45DrOddx

— Tommy Robinson 🇬🇧 (@TRobinsonNewEra) May 14, 2024

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whiterock said:

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when we talk about "Western Civilization," we are talking about Judeo-Christian values.

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No, we are talking about Christian values. It is Christianity that terraformed the planet into some semblance of what we have today. The pre-Christian and Jewish world were brutal places. There is no "Judeo-Christian" religion.

whiterock said:

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historian said:

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Turkey is been a less reliable ally over the past few years, a trend that is continuing.

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yes, islamist sentiments of the Erdogan regime have created some frustrations. But they are still Nato members, and that limits how far they can stray.

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You mean like when they limited our access to airspace and we had to refuel and fly sorties from other locations?

You think this is limited to Islam? It happens in this country all the time. Not marriage but trafficing.

"Judeo-Christian" acknowledges the connection between the two faiths. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism since Christ was a Jew before He stated the new faith. The moral systems and much else are very similar. As Jesus Himself said, He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. That's exactly what He did.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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You think this is limited to Islam? It happens in this country all the time. Not marriage but trafficing.

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The difference is that we throw people in jail for trafficking... in Islam, it's just following the example of the blessed prophet.... may he burn in hell forever!

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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You think this is limited to Islam? It happens in this country all the time. Not marriage but trafficing.

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It's what Epstein's island was all about: pedophiles abusing children. And many of his clients, allegedly, were American bigwigs. That's why the client list is still sealed. There are too many names on that list of powerful people. Supposedly this includes Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking, Prince Andrew, and others.

Anyone who has not seen the film Sound of Freedom really should. It's very educational, opening one's eyes to an uncomfortable reality we all need to bd aware of. It's also scary because it's about modern slavery that our leaders tolerate and perhaps benefit from.

historian said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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You think this is limited to Islam? It happens in this country all the time. Not marriage but trafficing.

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It's what Epstein's island was all about: pedophiles abusing children. And many of his clients, allegedly, were American bigwigs. That's why the client list is still sealed. There are too many names on that list of powerful people. Supposedly this includes Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking, Prince Andrew, and others.

Anyone who has not seen the film Sound of Freedom really should. It's very educational, opening one's eyes to an uncomfortable reality we all need to bd aware of. It's also scary because it's about modern slavery that our leaders tolerate and perhaps benefit from.

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Again, it is being concealed and hidden because in the West we prosecute pedophiles. These pedos are the lowest of the low, and they deserve to be destroyed. It is well known that in prisons, pedos get the justice they deserve... because even criminals cannot stand pedophiles, and they brutally kill them.

But in Islam, it is not covered up or hidden because it is just part of their religion and culture. THAT is the big difference. Sexually abusing young girls (and in some Islamic parts, young boys) is just part of the culture. It is a truly evil culture.

Actually, the history of Islam is covered up somewhat. If you were to publicly describe Mohammad as a pedophile you would face death threats, despite the historical record.

historian said:

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Actually, the history of Islam is covered up somewhat. If you were to publicly describe Mohammad as a pedophile you would face death threats, despite the historical record.

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When I was traveling & living in Central Asia, most Muslims were very familiar with Aisha. She was 9 when they married and around 12 when he first raped her... though they don't think of it as rape... disgusting.

ShooterTX said:

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historian said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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You think this is limited to Islam? It happens in this country all the time. Not marriage but trafficing.

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It's what Epstein's island was all about: pedophiles abusing children. And many of his clients, allegedly, were American bigwigs. That's why the client list is still sealed. There are too many names on that list of powerful people. Supposedly this includes Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking, Prince Andrew, and others.

Anyone who has not seen the film Sound of Freedom really should. It's very educational, opening one's eyes to an uncomfortable reality we all need to bd aware of. It's also scary because it's about modern slavery that our leaders tolerate and perhaps benefit from.

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Again, it is being concealed and hidden because in the West we prosecute pedophiles. These pedos are the lowest of the low, and they deserve to be destroyed. It is well known that in prisons, pedos get the justice they deserve... because even criminals cannot stand pedophiles, and they brutally kill them.

But in Islam, it is not covered up or hidden because it is just part of their religion and culture. THAT is the big difference. Sexually abusing young girls (and in some Islamic parts, young boys) is just part of the culture. It is a truly evil culture.

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Christians expose and eliminate pedophiles.

Judaism and Islam do not.

historian said:

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"Judeo-Christian" acknowledges the connection between the two faiths. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism since Christ was a Jew before He stated the new faith. The moral systems and much else are very similar. As Jesus Himself said, He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. That's exactly what He did.

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Judaism, as described and set forth in the Old Testament, is an extinct religion that no one on earth has practiced since 70 A.D. It is impossible to practice the religion of Moses and David in the modern world. The closest you can get to it is going to Jerusalem and banging your head on the remnant of a wall.

Christ's church has existed on earth for longer than any of its predecessor temples so there is no need to inject archeology into theology.

If you claim to be Jewish in the modern world, you need to set aside the Talmud, leave the synagogue, and accept Christ as your messiah or you will die in your sins.

So enough of the Judeo-Christian business already.

pic.twitter.com/DMMuc29a3b

— Not Jerome Powell (@alifarhat79) May 14, 2024

Perfect summary

This is very well done pic.twitter.com/ZR5W8JGted

— Andrew Fox (@Mr_Andrew_Fox) May 15, 2024

Reference point here. Modest response from Turkey, reflecting their greater concerns about Iran (whose proxy is being destroyed).

SCOOP: Israel gradually returning diplomats to Turkey after Gaza row

• Sources say staff began going back earlier this month, despite relations between the countries growing more strainedhttps://t.co/j9tOIewLHA

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) May 13, 2024

And Iranian views on Turkey:

Iran’s Khamenei, who visited the Tehran Book Fair, picks up a book and says "This is written by Greeks against the Turks… It describes very powerfully and beautifully the oppression of the Greeks by the Ottoman Turks…”

Via @akkaroguz

pic.twitter.com/i67qaUW3mu

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) May 15, 2024

BREAKING:

Iran's President Ebrahim Raisi likely dead after helicopter crash in Azerbaijan pic.twitter.com/Cp97eSC56f

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) May 19, 2024

boognish_bear said:

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UN revises Gaza death toll, almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported.

Hamas’ death toll figures have been disputed by Israel, yet they have been quoted by media, humanitarian organizations and world leaders, including Biden.

pic.twitter.com/bk8j0XwXXJ

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) May 13, 2024

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Quoting any Hamas reported figures is folly. Unbelievable that they are given any credibility by any organization. There is history to doubt whatever they report.

People in Iran are setting off fireworks after hearing that the helicopter of the President of the Islamic Regime in Iran has crashed pic.twitter.com/1LxgDMAzR0

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) May 19, 2024

EatMoreSalmon said:

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boognish_bear said:

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UN revises Gaza death toll, almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported.

Hamas’ death toll figures have been disputed by Israel, yet they have been quoted by media, humanitarian organizations and world leaders, including Biden.

pic.twitter.com/bk8j0XwXXJ

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) May 13, 2024

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Quoting any Hamas reported figures is folly. Unbelievable that they are given any credibility by any organization. There is history to doubt whatever they report.

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Is still the same number of total deaths... they just changed the bodies from being identified as women and children to "unidentified".

It's all just Israeli propaganda.

They are most definitely killing mostly women and children since that is the majority population of Gaza.

IDF and Israel are as disreputable as Hamas and the Palestinians.

The_barBEARian said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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boognish_bear said:

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UN revises Gaza death toll, almost 50% less women and children killed than previously reported.

Hamas’ death toll figures have been disputed by Israel, yet they have been quoted by media, humanitarian organizations and world leaders, including Biden.

pic.twitter.com/bk8j0XwXXJ

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) May 13, 2024

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Quoting any Hamas reported figures is folly. Unbelievable that they are given any credibility by any organization. There is history to doubt whatever they report.

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Is still the same number of total deaths... they just changed the bodies from being identified as women and children to "unidentified".

It's all just Israeli propaganda.

They are most definitely killing mostly women and children since that is the majority population of Gaza.

IDF and Israel are as disreputable as Hamas and the Palestinians.

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Don't see in the tweet where they changed any deaths to unidentified.

Did you see something in the tweet, I didn't or are you just making assumptions?

Israel has never to my knowledge listed the names of the "1400" deaths revised one time down to "1200" deaths.

That kind of false moral equivalency is stupid & evil. They are most definitely not the same. The Israelis go to great lengths to avoid killing civilians, even at risk to themselves. Hamas uses their civilians as human shields and prevents them from fleeing a battlefield. Hamas also steals supplies from them to make them more destitute & desperate.

Quite literally, Hamas wants them dead. All they care about is the propaganda value & many fascists in the west are more than willing to promote their lies.

historian said:

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That kind of false moral equivalency is stupid & evil. They are most definitely not the same. The Israelis go to great lengths to avoid killing civilians, even at risk to themselves. Hamas uses their civilians as human shields and prevents them from fleeing a battlefield. Hamas also steals supplies from them to make them more destitute & desperate.

Quite literally, Hamas wants them dead. All they care about is the propaganda value & many fascists in the west are more than willing to promote their lies.

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Youre doing the hasbara for them. If that were remotely true the buildings in Gaza would still be standing and not completely leveled.

nein51 said:

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You may be right but way back in Desert Storm we leveled a hospital. At least that what Iraq and Al Jazeera said. They neglected the part where it was also a SAM radar/missile site.

Sometimes things are done out of vengeance. Sometimes necessity. I would say most people commenting have no idea which is which (nor do I in this particular conflict). You can safely assume that both Hamas and the IDF are telling half truths at best because there is a PR war both desperately want to win.

I wouldn't believe either side with any real confidence.

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I totally agree with this. The pictures ive seen though just look like total devastation and many of the videos i've seen of what the IDF is doing doesnt say "most moral army" etc. At least in Iraq our army went in and tried not to kill every single person and raze the towns. The IDF seem to be going scorched earth and in some cases laughing about it.

muddybrazos said:

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nein51 said:

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You may be right but way back in Desert Storm we leveled a hospital. At least that what Iraq and Al Jazeera said. They neglected the part where it was also a SAM radar/missile site.

Sometimes things are done out of vengeance. Sometimes necessity. I would say most people commenting have no idea which is which (nor do I in this particular conflict). You can safely assume that both Hamas and the IDF are telling half truths at best because there is a PR war both desperately want to win.

I wouldn't believe either side with any real confidence.

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I totally agree with this. The pictures ive seen though just look like total devastation and many of the videos i've seen of what the IDF is doing doesnt say "most moral army" etc. At least in Iraq our army went in and tried not to kill every single person and raze the towns. The IDF seem to be going scorched earth and in some cases laughing about it.

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I think a lot of that has to do with the type of fighting and type of fortifications they are dealing with. Urban fighting is brutal, destructive and there is no way to sanitize it. They are dealing with elevation, tunnels, urban corridors and civilians. There are no easy or clean answers, combined forces street by street. Not sure anyone laughs about this...

nein51 said:

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You may be right but way back in Desert Storm we leveled a hospital. At least that what Iraq and Al Jazeera said. They neglected the part where it was also a SAM radar/missile site.

Sometimes things are done out of vengeance. Sometimes necessity. I would say most people commenting have no idea which is which (nor do I in this particular conflict). You can safely assume that both Hamas and the IDF are telling half truths at best because there is a PR war both desperately want to win.

I wouldn't believe either side with any real confidence.

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If you keep posting reasonable stuff like this nein, others are going to start accusing you of being an Aryan Brother.

These ICC judges and prosecutor better not get on any helicopters anytime soon...