Who said that the 2008 fiasco was anything but criminal?The_barBEARian said:FLBear5630 said:Was it really 1/10? You sure it isn't 1/8 or 1/9? The US did not give 30 billion in a year. You are all over on your facts, so we really can't take your point seriously. Please be more exact...The_barBEARian said:
I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.
Why bother continuing to pay taxes?
If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?
Aren't you the guy talking about how selfish the younger generations are?
There was no greater selfish act in American history than 2008, when Boomers wrecked the economy either through greed or negligence and rather than accepting your well deserved punishment of losing 50% of your net worth... you kicked the can down the road and ballooned our national debt.
And so far you've kicked that can to the tune of $35 trillion and counting...
Netanyahu said "we are at war,"
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Wow... that statement just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.The_barBEARian said:
And how much more debt would the Abraham Accords have costed us?
Another $1 trillion in debt and added inflation to bribe a bunch of Arab countries to play nice with our "greatest ally"?
At what point do average middle America Americans like myself see some kind of tangible benefit from our relationship with Israel?
Or will it continue to be a astronomical net negative relationship as is has been my entire life?
Israel has given the world dozens of medical breakthroughs... just that alone has saved many American lives.
They are also world leaders in technological innovations, military innovations.... America has benefitted greatly from the nation of Israel.
It is hilarious that you think you know for a fact that it would have cost over a trillion dollars to get the Arabs to sign peace treaties with Israel. There is no evidence to support such a wacko statement.
Just admit it... you just hate the Jews. Take your goose stepping somewhere else.
ShooterTX
ShooterTX said:Wow... that statement just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.The_barBEARian said:
And how much more debt would the Abraham Accords have costed us?
Another $1 trillion in debt and added inflation to bribe a bunch of Arab countries to play nice with our "greatest ally"?
At what point do average middle America Americans like myself see some kind of tangible benefit from our relationship with Israel?
Or will it continue to be a astronomical net negative relationship as is has been my entire life?
Israel has given the world dozens of medical breakthroughs... just that alone has saved many American lives.
They are also world leaders in technological innovations, military innovations.... America has benefitted greatly from the nation of Israel.
It is hilarious that you think you know for a fact that it would have cost over a trillion dollars to get the Arabs to sign peace treaties with Israel. There is no evidence to support such a wacko statement.
Just admit it... you just hate the Jews. Take your goose stepping somewhere else.
How old are you?
eff both Net and fat boy. We should cut Israel off 100% till that govt is out of power. Both are dangerous humans.KaiBear said:boognish_bear said:Former U.S. President Donald J. Trump seen moments ago Greeting the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and his wife Sara at his Mar-a-Lago Home in Palm Beach, Florida. pic.twitter.com/O76J4QlTKw
— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) July 26, 2024
Very important photo op.
Hopefully American Jews remember what Trumps administration did for Israel.
ShooterTX said:Wow... that statement just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.The_barBEARian said:
And how much more debt would the Abraham Accords have costed us?
Another $1 trillion in debt and added inflation to bribe a bunch of Arab countries to play nice with our "greatest ally"?
At what point do average middle America Americans like myself see some kind of tangible benefit from our relationship with Israel?
Or will it continue to be a astronomical net negative relationship as is has been my entire life?
Israel has given the world dozens of medical breakthroughs... just that alone has saved many American lives.
They are also world leaders in technological innovations, military innovations.... America has benefitted greatly from the nation of Israel.
It is hilarious that you think you know for a fact that it would have cost over a trillion dollars to get the Arabs to sign peace treaties with Israel. There is no evidence to support such a wacko statement.
Just admit it... you just hate the Jews. Take your goose stepping somewhere else.
*******... I wasnt aware Israel was Wakanda...
If Israel and the Israelis are so exceptional and superior why do they need billions in handouts every year from us plebs in America?
Seems like if those medical, technological, and military innovations were so powerful the money would be rolling in and they wouldn't need the charity.
Ironic to hear you mention goose stepping when the only ones goose stepping and killing ten of thousands... approaching hundreds of thousands of civilians right now is the IDF.
Just admit it... you are a stupid, pea brained *******.
BREAKING:
— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) July 27, 2024
Iranian proxy groups fire rockets at the U.S. military base by the Al-Omar oil field in Syria pic.twitter.com/F2jTTIpbEX
That is a good point. The U.S. debt is insane and must be brought under control but almost no one in Washington cares. However, the solution will not be found by cutting foreign aid. With a $1 trillion deficit each year, even eliminating all aid wouldn't make a dent. All foreign aid is a fraction of 1% of the annual budget. And I would drastically cut or eliminate aid to Ukraine before touching any of the aid going to Israel. Ukraine is a mess partly because of Obama's meddling in their affairs and their government is almost as corrupt as Russia's. I suspect a significant part of that aid is being misused fraudulently. It might even be a giant money laundering scam.
What? No way? Signaling weakness increases risk. Who would have ever believed that.
Hezbollah has reportedly told both U.S. President Joe Biden’s Advisor on Lebanon and Israel, Amos Hochstein as well as Senior Officers with the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) that any kind of Major Israeli Retaliatory Operation, will result in a Massive Response…
— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) July 27, 2024
BREAKING:
— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) July 27, 2024
The Israeli Air Force starts bombing Lebanon
🇮🇱🇱🇧 pic.twitter.com/iXeQ9DHhou
War explanding?
BREAKING:
— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) July 28, 2024
An Israeli airstrike hits a building in Tyre, Lebanon.
🇮🇱🇱🇧 pic.twitter.com/eKpVWgkSGu
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
historian said:
That is a good point. The U.S. debt is insane and must be brought under control but almost no one in Washington cares. However, the solution will not be found by cutting foreign aid. With a $1 trillion deficit each year, even eliminating all aid wouldn't make a dent. All foreign aid is a fraction of 1% of the annual budget. And I would drastically cut or eliminate aid to Ukraine before touching any of the aid going to Israel. Ukraine is a mess partly because of Obama's meddling in their affairs and their government is almost as corrupt as Russia's. I suspect a significant part of that aid is being misused fraudulently. It might even be a giant money laundering scam.
You are correct on all counts. The debt is not going to be solved reducing spending by 3%. We are too far in. The only way out is growth. We are in the same situation as China, we need to grow the pie. China will do that invading Taiwan and expanding. We have to invest in Tech and space
nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
Israel has no choice now but to fight both.
Watch for them to call up their reserves .
Whoever is the de facto US Commander in Chief is going to have some major decisions to make in the next 72 hours.
Only if we dramatically increase our weapons supply and that isn't likely under Harris/Biden joint venture. Really haven't understood this childish back and forth between Lebanon and Israel. Northern Israel is basically a few hundred thousand settlers and southern Lebanon is basically the same.nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
When I visited Beirut and Sidon and Tyre in the 1970's they were just getting ready to tear the country apart with a fight between Christian and Muslims. I think that one took 15 years to settle.
Back to your point, no way Israel can fight off Hezballah and Hamas since they have been unable to remove Hamas without distraction on norther front.
I vote we set this one out.
Aliceinbubbleland said:Only if we dramatically increase our weapons supply and that isn't likely under Harris/Biden joint venture. Really haven't understood this childish back and forth between Lebanon and Israel. Northern Israel is basically a few hundred thousand settlers and southern Lebanon is basically the same.nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
When I visited Beirut and Sidon and Tyre in the 1970's they were just getting ready to tear the country apart with a fight between Christian and Muslims. I think that one took 15 years to settle.
Back to your point, no way Israel can fight off Hezballah and Hamas since they have been unable to remove Hamas without distraction on norther front.
I vote we set this one out.
If you support keeping your tax dollars in America and not getting involved in foreign wars half the world away the imbecilic, America last, scum in this thread will call you a racist or a fascist.
Time for Israel to open up a can of whoop***.
nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.
Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.
But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?
That is the real question.
Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?
Redbrickbear said:nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.
Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.
But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?
That is the real question.
Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?
Wanna know what has brought down pretty much every powerful force in the last 200 years? Fighting wars on multiple fronts.
The issue here is that this is really Iran not Lebanon and while Israel has money and weapons they don't have a ton of citizens. At some point you're just stretched very thin on your most valuable resource.
This is a much bigger deal than just "some militant" organizations. Hamas is the recognized government of Palestine and Hezbollah (and the Houthis) is (are) an Iranian proxy group. Neither of those groups plays war by Geneva convention rules and both would rather die than live which makes them incredibly dangerous. Further, this is Iran prodding the west and the U.S. to see if we will react or not.
I'm not so sure we can sit this one out though I don't think we need ground troops. At some point we are going to have to smack the **** out of someone to remind them we can do that at any time if we so choose. Otherwise you run the risk of bad actors smelling weakness and maybe they don't stop with antagonism of Israel.
Redbrickbear said:nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.
Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.
But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?
That is the real question.
Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?
In general, nations with representative forms of government make bad occupiers. There are temporary exceptions to this, but eventually resistance by the occupied/sympathy for the occupied tends to end it.
If you look at the sorts of things the Roman Empire had to do for a successful long term occupation of that region, neither the Israel nor the US has that in us.
FLBear5630 said:
You are correct on all counts. The debt is not going to be solved reducing spending by 3%. We are too far in. The only way out is growth. We are in the same situation as China, we need to grow the pie. China will do that invading Taiwan and expanding. We have to invest in Tech and space
When you are deep in debt, everything gets cut. We are not going to grow our way out of anything with these levels of government spending.
Realitybites said:Redbrickbear said:nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.
Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.
But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?
That is the real question.
Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?
In general, nations with representative forms of government make bad occupiers. There are temporary exceptions to this, but eventually resistance by the occupied/sympathy for the occupied tends to end it.
If you look at the sorts of things the Roman Empire had to do for a successful long term occupation of that region, neither the Israel nor the US has that in us.
The West doesn't have the stomach for the necessary things to win a ground war or occupy a nation any longer. Agree completely with your last paragraph.
you cannot balance a budget with one or more bad foreign policy decisions.FLBear5630 said:historian said:
That is a good point. The U.S. debt is insane and must be brought under control but almost no one in Washington cares. However, the solution will not be found by cutting foreign aid. With a $1 trillion deficit each year, even eliminating all aid wouldn't make a dent. All foreign aid is a fraction of 1% of the annual budget. And I would drastically cut or eliminate aid to Ukraine before touching any of the aid going to Israel. Ukraine is a mess partly because of Obama's meddling in their affairs and their government is almost as corrupt as Russia's. I suspect a significant part of that aid is being misused fraudulently. It might even be a giant money laundering scam.
You are correct on all counts. The debt is not going to be solved reducing spending by 3%. We are too far in. The only way out is growth. We are in the same situation as China, we need to grow the pie. China will do that invading Taiwan and expanding. We have to invest in Tech and space
you have to get it right each time, or the cost goes up.
Israel just dealt a crippling blow to (and will finish off if allowed) one of the more robust terrorist groups on our "state sponsor" list of terrorist groups. A group which as killed and taken hostage numerous American citizens, a Sunni group which has allied itself with Iran to destabilize the entire region, not just Israel. All we have to do is help out with the ammo, and Israel will sort this one out for us.The_barBEARian said:
I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.
It's not that they CAN'T do it, it's that they WON'T do it as a matter of policy. When they DO do something right, like helping Ukraine defeat Russia, we should support it, not fight them on it. That's cutting our nose off to spite our face.
Why bother continuing to pay taxes?
If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?
That's a great big steaming pile of non-sequiturs. We don't need them to come to our aid over here. We need allies to do dirty work elsewhere. Israel does.
Same is true for Hizballah. They (and Shiite groups in particular) were the face of radical islamic terrorism until 9/11 - until that day, Hizballah was way out in the lead for which terrorist group had killed more Americans,, hundreds of us. And Hizballah is an Iranian proxy group. If Israel wants to extirpate them, we should pay for every single bomb.
Make no mistake, the recent attacks against Israel by Iranian proxies are an attempt to distract us, to draw us into peripheral conflicts that will make it harder for us to focus, fund, supply Ukraine and Taiwan. Having an ally like Israel to handle the issue (and handle it they can) is a tremendous asset. Israel takes all the casualties. Israel takes all the international heat. All we have to do is supply the boom. Best. Deal. Ever.
Your anti-semitism is blinding you to the value of the most reliable and capable ally we have. No other country comes even close to having given the bang for bucks Israel has done.
No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.Redbrickbear said:The_barBEARian said:
I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.
Why bother continuing to pay taxes?
If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?
They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA
So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.
"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart
your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.The_barBEARian said:historian said:
Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?
The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.
Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.
Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.
Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.
Signing a mutual aid package would be the dumbest thing the USA could do. We'd be committing ourselves to get involved in the response to every terror attack Israel receives. In fact, a formal alliance with Israel like that would only invite more terror attacks against Israel (in order to directly engage the Great Satan).Redbrickbear said:The_barBEARian said:
I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.
Why bother continuing to pay taxes?
If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?
They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA
So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.
We have a perfectly suitable arrangement with Israel. They take care of a lot of problems that would have to deal with otherwise, but we have no commitments other than to keep open the supply lines of bullets & bombs.
The_barBEARian said:whiterock said:Did Lafayette love America more than France?Redbrickbear said:The_barBEARian said:KaiBear said:The_barBEARian said:KaiBear said:boognish_bear said:Former U.S. President Donald J. Trump seen moments ago Greeting the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and his wife Sara at his Mar-a-Lago Home in Palm Beach, Florida. pic.twitter.com/O76J4QlTKw
— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) July 26, 2024
Very important photo op.
Hopefully American Jews remember what Trumps administration did for Israel.
So American Jews are more concerned about what Trump did for a foreign country vs what he did for Americans?!?!??
And you idiots are ok with that?!???
No one said or even implied such a thing .
You seem to do looking for any excuse to go nuts .
You said:
"Hopefully American Jews remember what Trumps administration did for Israel"
That implies a group of Americans caring more about the welfare of a foreign country over their own country.
Should Americans of Nigerian descent remember what Trump did for Nigeria?
Although I don't think we've given $30 billion to Nigeria this year yet.
Everyone is a nationalist about the ethnic group they love.
And anti-nationalist about the ethnic group they dislike or don't care about.
Once you realize that things make a lot more sense.....
ps
I should say almost everyone.
There are those lovable eccentrics who are not part of the Nation who often take up the cause and become excessive champions of a certain type of nationalism.
The Englishmen who went to fight for Greek independence in their war against the Turks for instance.
The French born Prince of Polignac....called by the Confederates "Prince Pole Cat".... who showed up as a volunteer to fight for the South in the Civil War.
And other lovable weirdos throughout history
Did Hemingway love Spain more than America?
Did Chenault love China mor than America?
Patton was a noted Francophile. Does that mean he loved France more than America?
I'm an anglophile and there's no one in history I admire more than Churchill. Does that make me a Brit?
I loved the Polish Pope, as an ally in the Cold War. That didn't make me a Catholic
I know Jews across the political spectrum. Although some are more vocal about it than others, all of them care about the survival of Israel. None of them "love Israel more than America." That is a straw man barBearian inserts into the equation to justify his hatred of Jews.
It is not a strawman.
Yes, it is.
It is reality.
No, it's just harrumph. You are angry about deficits and completely ignorant about foreign affairs.
Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see AIPAC exploits Americans for Israel's best interests.
AIPAC donates money to politicians to ensure their support for Israel, who is one of our most valuable allies.
I'm trying to not be vulgar and direct personal attacks at specific posters but this Boomer mentality of allowing Americans to be slaves to a foreign nation will not continue with the millennials and Gen Z... and the more money and support wasted on a foreign country the more we grow to dispise them.
We're not slaves to anyone. We do what is in our interest. Arguably, we get more value out of our relationship with Israel than any other ally.
I don't have any ill will towards Bali, Nigeria, or Serbia bcs they are not stealing my tax dollars and buying my politicians to pass laws that violate my constitutional rights.
harrumph is no policy at all. think, man, think!
So far their can of whoop has failed to achieve success in Gaza and looks to be impossible according to Israeli Military leaders.ScottS said:
Time for Israel to open up a can of whoop***.
Can they really afford to open a second front against a much more powerful enemy?
Aliceinbubbleland said:So far their can of whoop has failed to achieve success in Gaza and looks to be impossible according to Israeli Military leaders.ScottS said:
Time for Israel to open up a can of whoop***.
Can they really afford to open a second front against a much more powerful enemy?
In what way has it failed in Gaza? They aren't going to achieve their goal of eliminating Hamas because the leadership is chilling in 5* hotels on Qatar.
I'm aware the kingpins are in Qatar but the stated goal of Bibi was to eliminate Hamas and he hasn't done that even within Gaza.
Israel and Hezbollah faught to a draw the last time a big event surfaced and one could expect Hezbollah is much more powerful today than they were in 2006 (?).
Israel and Hezbollah faught to a draw the last time a big event surfaced and one could expect Hezbollah is much more powerful today than they were in 2006 (?).
Realitybites said:Redbrickbear said:nein51 said:
I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.
They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.
Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.
But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?
That is the real question.
Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?
In general, nations with representative forms of government make bad occupiers. There are temporary exceptions to this, but eventually resistance by the occupied/sympathy for the occupied tends to end it.
If you look at the sorts of things the Roman Empire had to do for a successful long term occupation of that region, neither the Israel nor the US has that in us.
For much of its history the Roman Empire was not very representative. The Republic trappings were just that. From the time of Augustus on it was actually a hereditary monarchy. It's not accidental the German "Kaiser" and the Russian "Tsar / Czar" are both derived from "Caesar".
whiterock said:you cannot balance a budget with one or more bad foreign policy decisions.FLBear5630 said:historian said:
That is a good point. The U.S. debt is insane and must be brought under control but almost no one in Washington cares. However, the solution will not be found by cutting foreign aid. With a $1 trillion deficit each year, even eliminating all aid wouldn't make a dent. All foreign aid is a fraction of 1% of the annual budget. And I would drastically cut or eliminate aid to Ukraine before touching any of the aid going to Israel. Ukraine is a mess partly because of Obama's meddling in their affairs and their government is almost as corrupt as Russia's. I suspect a significant part of that aid is being misused fraudulently. It might even be a giant money laundering scam.
You are correct on all counts. The debt is not going to be solved reducing spending by 3%. We are too far in. The only way out is growth. We are in the same situation as China, we need to grow the pie. China will do that invading Taiwan and expanding. We have to invest in Tech and space
you have to get it right each time, or the cost goes up.
The only bad foreign policy decisions with a significant impact on our huge budget are wars and defense spending in general. Of course, financing proxy wars like the one in Ukraine are very expensive. Maintaining the largest military on the planet is also very expensive but it's a wise investment when used wisely. The Houthi's in the Red Sea are illustrating that point. There is plenty of waste that can be trimmed, especially inside the Pentagon.
Maybe the Mossad can take care of them.