Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I'm aware the kingpins are in Qatar but the stated goal of Bibi was to eliminate Hamas and he hasn't done that even within Gaza.

Israel and Hezbollah faught to a draw the last time a big event surfaced and one could expect Hezbollah is much more powerful today than they were in 2006 (?).

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They have the ability to eliminate Hamas. They do not have the backing of the West nor the backing of their own people to do so. They have been incredibly strategic in this war or the body count would be 20x-50x what it is.

The question really is whether eliminating Hamas is even a realistic objective.

However, an organization that pays people to kill Jews has to be seen as a threat if you're a Jew.

historian said:

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Maybe the Mossad can take care of them.

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Maybe but that's not as pressing of a concern as why is Qatar allowing them to live freely there in the first place.

True. But taking out the Hamas leaders in those luxury hotels would send a message to Qatar's leaders. They might melt like snow if faced by a real push back by someone willing to use violence in. As precise, measured manner. Israel is one power willing to do that.

nein51 said:

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I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

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Well, the good news is that it is a limited geographic area, there is no two-ocean fight here. Second, besides harass can Hamas and Hezbollah take and hold territory? I don't see it. I see a long bloody guerilla war, basically what we have had since 1967.

FLBear5630 said:

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nein51 said:

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I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

---

Well, the good news is that it is a limited geographic area, there is no two-ocean fight here. Second, besides harass can Hamas and Hezbollah take and hold territory? I don't see it. I see a long bloody guerilla war, basically what we have had since 1967.

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No they really can't.

nein51 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

nein51 said:

---

I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

---

Well, the good news is that it is a limited geographic area, there is no two-ocean fight here. Second, besides harass can Hamas and Hezbollah take and hold territory? I don't see it. I see a long bloody guerilla war, basically what we have had since 1967.

---

No they really can't.

---

I will say this. The "Useful Idiots" have emboldened both Hama and Hezbollah. They will up the violence, claim self-defense and go for 1948 part two...

I can't overstate this:

The Middle East is now potentially hours away from the most devastating war in its bloody history.

A Israel-Hezbollah war would likely yield a shocking number of fatalities and destruction.

The US knew this day would come. Our leaders have failed.

— Jonathan Schanzer (@JSchanzer) July 27, 2024

BREAKING:

France urges all its citizens to leave Lebanon immediately

🇫🇷🇱🇧 pic.twitter.com/FpwlSto4gV

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) July 28, 2024

Biden and Brown's global leadership on full display.

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?

The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.

Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.

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Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.

Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.

---

your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.

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And that is the issue, it isn't "credit" bcs Israel is the biggest deadbeat nation to have ever existed. They have never paid back a single penny to our government except for the time they killed 34 American servicemen and wounded another 100 when they attacked the USS Liberty in a failed false flag operation.

When cannot afford to keep giving free handouts like a they guy giving cheese samplers at Costco. We are under unprecedented levels of debt. We need to work on building nuclear and producing more energy at home and reducing our costly global footprint.

historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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nein51 said:

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I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

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They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.

Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.

But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?

That is the real question.

Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?

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In general, nations with representative forms of government make bad occupiers. There are temporary exceptions to this, but eventually resistance by the occupied/sympathy for the occupied tends to end it.

If you look at the sorts of things the Roman Empire had to do for a successful long term occupation of that region, neither the Israel nor the US has that in us.

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For much of its history the Roman Empire was not very representative. The Republic trappings were just that. From the time of Augustus on it was actually a hereditary monarchy. It's not accidental the German "Kaiser" and the Russian "Tsar / Czar" are both derived from "Caesar".

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And before the empire is was a Senate ruled oligarchy.

[From 509 to 27 BC Rome was ruled by a republican government comprising three main elements: a system of magistrates, a Senate, and several popular assemblies. In contrast to Athenian democracy, in which citizens participated directly in government, the Roman Republic was controlled indirectly through elected representatives. Because political power was concentrated in the hands of wealthy aristocrats, the Roman Republic is best described as an elected oligarchy]

So far today the Governments of France, Norway, Belgium, Sweden, and Saudi Arabia have called on their Citizens to Immediately Depart from Lebanon while Commercial Flights are still Operational.

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) July 28, 2024

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

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They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

---

No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

---

Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

FLBear5630 said:

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nein51 said:

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I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

---

Well, the good news is that it is a limited geographic area, there is no two-ocean fight here. Second, besides harass can Hamas and Hezbollah take and hold territory? I don't see it. I see a long bloody guerilla war, basically what we have had since 1967.

---

The 2 fronts would be about 220 miles apart. I think Israel can ignore Gaza for a while in order to take on Hexbollah

… and fail miserably again

Good description of both. Athenian democracy was direct democracy with adult male citizens deciding things themselves as a group. It was possible because it was a small city-state over a small area. It also failed ultimately. That's one reason why our Founding Fathers rejected democracy as a form of government: it doesn't work well in the long run.

They equated democracy with mob rule. Good examples of this are riots or lynch mobs. It's chaotic and often violent. No one in their right mind should ever want something like that because no one is secure. The curious irony is that the Democrat Party often resembles this: the KKK and their lynch mobs, the riots of the 1960s, & more recently the BLM & antifa mobs of 2020. Leftist cities in Leftist states are another modern example with their seemingly permanent illegal alien crime wave. Defunding the police, releasing criminals instead of prosecuting them, & the Biden open border all have consequences.

The people who suffer the most are usually the poor, especially minorities. The elites don't care because the feel safe in their gated communities and with armed security.

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

---

They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

---

No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

---

Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

---

That's not true. Israel gained much territory after conquering their enemies in 1967 but have been giving much of it up piecemeal ever since. When they added Gaza or southern Lebanon in recent years, they also gave it up a few years later.

Senior Israeli Officials state that the Military is preparing for several Days of Intense Battles in Southern Lebanon and Northern Israel.

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) July 28, 2024

nein51 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

nein51 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

nein51 said:

---

I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

---

Well, the good news is that it is a limited geographic area, there is no two-ocean fight here. Second, besides harass can Hamas and Hezbollah take and hold territory? I don't see it. I see a long bloody guerilla war, basically what we have had since 1967.

---

No they really can't.

---

I will say this. The "Useful Idiots" have emboldened both Hama and Hezbollah. They will up the violence, claim self-defense and go for 1948 part two...

---

It's an Israel-Iran proxy war and it's almost entirely because the west has signaled tremendous weakness the last 2-3 years.

---

I see it as a D.C. and Tehran proxy war.

historian said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

---

They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

---

No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

---

Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

---

That's not true. Israel gained much territory after conquering their enemies in 1967 but have been giving much of it up piecemeal ever since. When they added Gaza or southern Lebanon in recent years, they also gave it up a few years later.

---

They gained territory in 48, 57, 67 73, & 82
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Biden and Brown's global leadership on full display.

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This conflict goes way back before these guys you mention.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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nein51 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

nein51 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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nein51 said:

---

I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

---

Well, the good news is that it is a limited geographic area, there is no two-ocean fight here. Second, besides harass can Hamas and Hezbollah take and hold territory? I don't see it. I see a long bloody guerilla war, basically what we have had since 1967.

---

No they really can't.

---

I will say this. The "Useful Idiots" have emboldened both Hama and Hezbollah. They will up the violence, claim self-defense and go for 1948 part two...

---

It's an Israel-Iran proxy war and it's almost entirely because the west has signaled tremendous weakness the last 2-3 years.

---

I see it as a D.C. and Tehran proxy war.

---

If all that costs us is some ammunition and a discount on product that's a huge win.

Osodecentx said:

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historian said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

---

They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

---

No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

---

Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

---

That's not true. Israel gained much territory after conquering their enemies in 1967 but have been giving much of it up piecemeal ever since. When they added Gaza or southern Lebanon in recent years, they also gave it up a few years later.

---

They gained territory in 48, 57, 67 73, & 82
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

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They gave up a lot more territory in the latte 70's than they would ever gain back since.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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Osodecentx said:

---

historian said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

---

They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

---

No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

---

Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

---

That's not true. Israel gained much territory after conquering their enemies in 1967 but have been giving much of it up piecemeal ever since. When they added Gaza or southern Lebanon in recent years, they also gave it up a few years later.

---

They gained territory in 48, 57, 67 73, & 82
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

---

They gave up a lot more territory in the latte 70's than they would ever gain back since.

---

They traded land to Egypt for peace. It was a voluntary transaction

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

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I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

---

They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

---

No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

---

Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

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I mean you arent wrong... the Boomers gave them the entire United States of America and a slave class of around 300 million people without firing a single shot bcs their bibles told them to or something

historian said:

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Maybe the Mossad can take care of them.

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somebody has to sign the peace agreement between Hamas and Israel. After that, they will have outlived their "usefulness." And they know it.

Redbrickbear said:

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nein51 said:

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I sure have my doubts that Israel can fight Hamas and Hezbollah simultaneously.

---

They are both just militant organizations and not Nation States.

Israel is a rich country (also welfare queen of the USA) and can easily crush both in a war.

But can they endlessly occupy Gaza and Southern Lebanon?

That is the real question.

Israel can defeat all its enemies on the battlefield…but can it win long term-expensive occupations?

---

They don't need to occupy either one. And they won't.

Hamas has been effectively destroyed. The remnants will have a hard time rebuilding military power, given that Gaza now has been effectively destroyed. a couple decades of tunnels have been destroyed. all water and power infrastructure has been destroyed. No hospitals. No food in stores, or warehouses. Etc.... The pre-war population of Gaza will not be able to return for years. That drains the swamp. Fewer people from which to draw soldiers. Fewer people among which to hide.

Have long advocated a military strategy of 'big raid." Isolate your target. Land in overwhelming force. Turn your target to rubble. Leave. Make the people in the rubble fix it all at their own expense. It will teach Pavlovian lessons about the price of poking the USA. (or in this case, Israel).

The Marshall Plan and all the globalism that followed was what we needed at the time. It rebuilt Western Civilization and defended most of the world from communism. But that is not a model for every time and every place. Every once in a while, stomping a mudhole just to show that you can stomp a mudhole anywhere you want is good policy. It makes your adversaries look long & hard and risk/return.

Understand what you are witnessing with Israel/Hamas/Hizballah - a peripheral theater in WWIII. Iran is trying to drag the US into conflicts peripheral to Ukraine/Taiwan by attacking a US ally. Unless attacked directly, we should stand back, and hand Israel the ordnance to destroy Hizballah, which is the crown Jewel of Iranian foreign policy. Israel is perfectly capable of dealing with it. All we have to do is sign purchase orders to increase production capacity on ammo. (i.e. pretty much do what we've been doing.)

Hizballah has killed hundreds and hundreds of American citizens. It's always open season on Hizballah. Anywhere, anytime. You can't kill 'em for being in Lebanon. They're Lebanese. But when they step outside of their little bubble, with so much as a toe or a TOW.....fire for effect. 100x effect.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?

The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.

Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.

---

Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.

Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.

---

your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.

---

And that is the issue, it isn't "credit" bcs Israel is the biggest deadbeat nation to have ever existed. They have never paid back a single penny to our government except for the time they killed 34 American servicemen and wounded another 100 when they attacked the USS Liberty in a failed false flag operation.

When cannot afford to keep giving free handouts like a they guy giving cheese samplers at Costco. We are under unprecedented levels of debt. We need to work on building nuclear and producing more energy at home and reducing our costly global footprint.

---

I can understand your problem with spending overseas when we are in debt... but why are you so singularly focused on Israel? We have given billions to nations around the planet, and NONE of them have paid it back... so why do you make it sound like it's only a Jewish problem?

If you want to eliminate aid to Israel, you will gain a ton of support if you talk about ending ALL foreign aid. But continually pushing to end aid to Israel while we give far more money to the Arab nations... it's just an obvious anti-semitic point of view.

"Hey... let's eliminate support for the Jews but continue to give billions to their enemies! What? How dare you say that I hate the Jews?!?"

ShooterTX said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

historian said:

---

Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?

The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.

Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.

---

Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.

Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.

---

your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.

---

And that is the issue, it isn't "credit" bcs Israel is the biggest deadbeat nation to have ever existed. They have never paid back a single penny to our government except for the time they killed 34 American servicemen and wounded another 100 when they attacked the USS Liberty in a failed false flag operation.

When cannot afford to keep giving free handouts like a they guy giving cheese samplers at Costco. We are under unprecedented levels of debt. We need to work on building nuclear and producing more energy at home and reducing our costly global footprint.

---

I can understand your problem with spending overseas when we are in debt... but why are you so singularly focused on Israel? We have given billions to nations around the planet, and NONE of them have paid it back... so why do you make it sound like it's only a Jewish problem?

If you want to eliminate aid to Israel, you will gain a ton of support if you talk about ending ALL foreign aid. But continually pushing to end aid to Israel while we give far more money to the Arab nations... it's just an obvious anti-semitic point of view.

"Hey... let's eliminate support for the Jews but continue to give billions to their enemies! What? How dare you say that I hate the Jews?!?"

---

I would love to have a conversation of how to measure what we get back and how much we do, not in loan repayments but strategic positions, resource access, rights of navigation, access to tech, and other more difficult methods of compensation. If we get nothing back, I agree it either stops or goes into a human/disaster relief budget item.

Before just cutting, or adding, anything we should have a good understanding of the cost/benefit. My understanding is that GAO does that or should.

ShooterTX said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

historian said:

---

Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?

The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.

Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.

---

Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.

Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.

---

your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.

---

And that is the issue, it isn't "credit" bcs Israel is the biggest deadbeat nation to have ever existed. They have never paid back a single penny to our government except for the time they killed 34 American servicemen and wounded another 100 when they attacked the USS Liberty in a failed false flag operation.

When cannot afford to keep giving free handouts like a they guy giving cheese samplers at Costco. We are under unprecedented levels of debt. We need to work on building nuclear and producing more energy at home and reducing our costly global footprint.

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I can understand your problem with spending overseas when we are in debt... but why are you so singularly focused on Israel? We have given billions to nations around the planet, and NONE of them have paid it back... so why do you make it sound like it's only a Jewish problem?

If you want to eliminate aid to Israel, you will gain a ton of support if you talk about ending ALL foreign aid. But continually pushing to end aid to Israel while we give far more money to the Arab nations... it's just an obvious anti-semitic point of view.

"Hey... let's eliminate support for the Jews but continue to give billions to their enemies! What? How dare you say that I hate the Jews?!?"

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Dude, I've been saying end all foreign aid for years!

Of course I want to end aid to the Arabs also.

The Arabs steal as much from us as the Israelis.

I don't want to give free handouts to any country.

But Israel is the one that people always pushback on so that is the one I have to fight the hardest over.

Virtually all conservatives agree we should end aid to Ukraine and Taiwan... and we definitely all agree we should end aid to the Arab states.

But when you talk about ending aid to Israel even conservatives start freaking out and calling you a racist or a NAZI or some other BS.

I am about putting America and the American tax payer first above all others.

And for the people saying foreign aid is only 1% of spending... ok, obviously ONLY cutting foreign aid wont solve our debt crisis but it is the best place to start as it provides the least/if any benefit to Joe Smith tax payer from Waco, Texas. Also, every dollar wasted generates an extra 3 or 4 dollars in interest because our government is so far behind on paying its bills. So if AIPAC directs congress to give Israel $30 billion, by the time we pay it all off it will be closer to $100 billion from the American tax payer.

FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?

The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.

Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.

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Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.

Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.

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your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.

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And that is the issue, it isn't "credit" bcs Israel is the biggest deadbeat nation to have ever existed. They have never paid back a single penny to our government except for the time they killed 34 American servicemen and wounded another 100 when they attacked the USS Liberty in a failed false flag operation.

When cannot afford to keep giving free handouts like a they guy giving cheese samplers at Costco. We are under unprecedented levels of debt. We need to work on building nuclear and producing more energy at home and reducing our costly global footprint.

---

I can understand your problem with spending overseas when we are in debt... but why are you so singularly focused on Israel? We have given billions to nations around the planet, and NONE of them have paid it back... so why do you make it sound like it's only a Jewish problem?

If you want to eliminate aid to Israel, you will gain a ton of support if you talk about ending ALL foreign aid. But continually pushing to end aid to Israel while we give far more money to the Arab nations... it's just an obvious anti-semitic point of view.

"Hey... let's eliminate support for the Jews but continue to give billions to their enemies! What? How dare you say that I hate the Jews?!?"

---

I would love to have a conversation of how to measure what we get back and how much we do, not in loan repayments but strategic positions, resource access, rights of navigation, access to tech, and other more difficult methods of compensation. If we get nothing back, I agree it either stops or goes into a human/disaster relief budget item.

Before just cutting, or adding, anything we should have a good understanding of the cost/benefit. My understanding is that GAO does that or should.

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If you trust our government to tell you the truth about anything, that is your first mistake.

The_barBEARian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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Do you realize how absurd such comparisons are?

The U.S. is the most powerful and wealthiest nation in history. Israel is smaller than Massachusetts and with a population about the size of NYC. Israel is prosperous, mainly because they have a mostly free economy, but they rank 28th among major world economies.

Your arguments are idiotic because they have little connection to reality.

---

Israel also has a budget surplus last year while the US has year after year of burgeoning debt.

Yet you still support them receiving $30 billion from the US tax payer to defend their borders when our own borders are completely broken.

---

your facts are wildly off base. please educate yourself.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

Most of the "aid" we give to Israel are credits toward purchase of armament from American defense contractors. Israel has access to all our best stuff - F35s, F15s, F-16s, etc..... Of even more value, they actually USE our best stuff in battle. We learn LOTS from Israel. And we get lots from Israel, intel wise.

---

And that is the issue, it isn't "credit" bcs Israel is the biggest deadbeat nation to have ever existed. They have never paid back a single penny to our government except for the time they killed 34 American servicemen and wounded another 100 when they attacked the USS Liberty in a failed false flag operation.

When cannot afford to keep giving free handouts like a they guy giving cheese samplers at Costco. We are under unprecedented levels of debt. We need to work on building nuclear and producing more energy at home and reducing our costly global footprint.

---

I can understand your problem with spending overseas when we are in debt... but why are you so singularly focused on Israel? We have given billions to nations around the planet, and NONE of them have paid it back... so why do you make it sound like it's only a Jewish problem?

If you want to eliminate aid to Israel, you will gain a ton of support if you talk about ending ALL foreign aid. But continually pushing to end aid to Israel while we give far more money to the Arab nations... it's just an obvious anti-semitic point of view.

"Hey... let's eliminate support for the Jews but continue to give billions to their enemies! What? How dare you say that I hate the Jews?!?"

---

I would love to have a conversation of how to measure what we get back and how much we do, not in loan repayments but strategic positions, resource access, rights of navigation, access to tech, and other more difficult methods of compensation. If we get nothing back, I agree it either stops or goes into a human/disaster relief budget item.

Before just cutting, or adding, anything we should have a good understanding of the cost/benefit. My understanding is that GAO does that or should.

---

If you trust our government to tell you the truth about anything, that is your first mistake.

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If you are starting from that point, there is nothing that can change your perceptions (I say perceptions because many times our perceptions do not match the data). You are at a place where short of going to an island and living alone, even if there are just 2 of you there will be a government, an agreement on how to govern.

So why go on about it if there is nothing the people with the data can do to show you if a policy is sound or not? You just like *****ing? I guess if you like getting worked up and complaining there is a benefit to you.

Osodecentx said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Osodecentx said:

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historian said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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I get irate bcs all I do is give, give, give to this country and then my own government does more for the citizens of a foreign government than they do for me. In fact, they can't even fulfill one of their primary duties - a secure border and thwarting foreign invasions.

Why bother continuing to pay taxes?

If Mexico took 100 Americans hostages, would our greatest ally spend the next year blasting it's population with 24/7 news coverage of the American hostages and demanding Israelis do everything in their power to bring them home? Would Israel send America $30 billion dollars in a single year? Would Israel continue to support us if we wiped out 1/10th of Mexico's population?

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They won't even sign a mutual defense pact with the USA

So...no its unlikely Israel would go to war with anyone unless it was to the direct benefit of Israel.

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No nation goes to war unless their leaders calculate a direct benefit to their country. Sure, some leaders miscalculate national interest.....choose war at the wrong time or place....choose war when other policy options would suffice (Russia's mistake in Ukraine).....etc..... But nobody goes to war just for the hell of it.

"Nations go to war to secure a better peace"
-Liddell Hart

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Every time a neighbor of Israel starts a war with Israel, Israel gets more territory. I look for Israel to have a buffer zone in southern Lebanon as a result of the looming hostilities. The international community will object and condemn, but Israel gets more territory.: 1948, Suez crisis 1957, 6 Day War 67, Yom Kippur 83, Lebanon War 82.

Each of these resulted in additional territory for Israel. I expect more of the same involving part of Lebanon

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That's not true. Israel gained much territory after conquering their enemies in 1967 but have been giving much of it up piecemeal ever since. When they added Gaza or southern Lebanon in recent years, they also gave it up a few years later.

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They gained territory in 48, 57, 67 73, & 82
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

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They gave up a lot more territory in the latte 70's than they would ever gain back since.

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They traded land to Egypt for peace. It was a voluntary transaction

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And it worked. They have had good relations with Egypt ever since.

whiterock said:

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historian said:

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Maybe the Mossad can take care of them.

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somebody has to sign the peace agreement between Hamas and Israel. After that, they will have outlived their "usefulness." And they know it.

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No one needs to sign anything. Treating them like a real country on an equal footing would only legitimize them. Best to wipe them out as quickly as possible. Israel needs to destroy their ability to attack them. That's what total were is all about. Hamas is totally depraved do they require a total solution.