KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

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Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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Stating historical facts is not an attack.

---

Russia wants to have secure borders...and looks for "anchor" points...like oceans and mountain ranges to have natural borders.

There is nothing inherently "aggressive" about the Russian character.

The USA also seeks "anchor" points on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans...and we secured those.

Now the Turks were more "aggressive" for the sake of being aggressive...and engaging in Islamic conquest

Russian geography explains most of its historic moves....

---

First, policy critics argue to the mat that Russia has no territorial ambitions, that Russian expansionism is a figment of Nato imagination to justify Nato imperial expansionsim. Then, in order to impeach the wisdom of including Turkey as a member of Nato,

---

1. No one doubts the wisdom of bringing Turkey into NATO during the cold war...it was the right call

(deny USSR total control of the Black sea, hold Bosphorus strait choke point, have missiles closer to Moscow)

People just complain about the Turks today....increasingly islamist, neo-Ottoman aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, always getting into fights with the EU leadership, etc.

2. Russian territorial ambitions have been well known.....they want to secure their sphere of influence and protect themselves from possible invasion....they have wanted to do that for centuries.

That means keeping countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Georgia on team Moscow.

Its D.C. elites who have to explain why they are so territorial ambitious that they want to risk proxy wars to pull those 4 countries out of the Russian sphere of influence...and expand NATO all the way to the Russian border.

---

NATO's value to Turkey is rapidly diminishing. Turkey has been snubbed by the EU for decades and is now seeking membership in BRICS. They stand to benefit enormously from China's Belt and Road project. They certainly have no intention of sending their troops as cannon fodder for a Western war against Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the alliance eventually. They'll take Europe's largest army with them when they go, rendering NATO permanently irrelevant.

---

You have cornerstone BRICS members wanting out of BRICS. The addition of Turkey would only drive India further away from it. China and India are the only 2 relevant economies in that fledgling alliance, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE are much more pro West unlike Russia and Iran.

---

BRICS has a higher combined population and GDP than the G7. In a few short years it will have its own payment system. Even if you ignore the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which is frankly odd), we're going to great lengths to antagonize China and Russia (which are both relevant, despite the juvenile trash talk from US officials).

It's not just that Turkey is unhappy with an issue here and there, either, like EU rejection or the genocide in Gaza. NATO policy wonks are actively floating ideas to curtail their influence within the alliance and ultimately drive them out. And contrary to Western propaganda, fear of "expansionist" Russia isn't the overwhelming motivator in East European and West Asian countries that we're led to believe.

---

India and China are in essence enemies with active border disputes and recent clashes. Every single other member has problematic economies and Turkey would only add to that.

What you're doing is just what the Kremlin wants, which is promo something they want the world to believe in, but more importantly help them circumvent sanctions for their invasion. If India pulls out, you'll have for the most part a consortium of despotic regimes with corruption filled economic and legal systems. Amazing how lost some of you are.

---

Actually this is really ****ing simple.

Name one thing Putin has done since he became President that has directly had a negative impact on your family? Has Russia threatened your safety or taken money out of your wallet?

If the answer is "not really", maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities and develop some self-preservation instincts.

Speaking for myself, the only people who have severely harmed me and the interests of my family are the odious people running the American government and their supporters.

---

Russia has threatened my family and taken money out of my pocket.

---

Was it not you....(or maybe it was another of the generic pro-war guys on here)...complaining about how the foreign policy restraint side of American politics only cared about saving money.

That not spending billions on Ukraine and Israel was a cheapskate mentality

Now we need to fight the big bad russkies because they are hurting your little pocket book?

---

We are fighting Russia because they have a history of domination since Catherine. Russia was as bad as Hitler and Germany, do a little of your Russian research on Stalin (Putin's hero). The KGB caused suffering of millions. I have friends that were stationed in Berlin in the 80's (Berlin Brigade). Russia and its propensity for domination was brutal. You may give the CIA crap for funding groups to fight. You may give them crap for funding Democracy. The CIA and the US gave choices. Russia doesn't. It invades. See Czech (My maternal Grandfather family which he lost contact in 68). Don't give me that Russia is a victim to the big, bad US. Some of us have been there or know people that actually patrolled the frontier, in 10th SF, Berlin, or worse have family that no one knows what happened. My Ukrainian friend, was literally on the phone telling her Grandmother not to get into a Russian bus in Ukraine (helped her get her green card). Talk to Finland how benevolent Russia and Putin are. China is the same thing. Communism, Socialism, whatever mask they want to wear now is a sickness no different than a disease the Lenin unleashed on the world. Postion clear enough?

---

Actually Stalin was worse than Hitler in terms of body count, duration of his tyranny, degree of evil, threats to his neighbors, etc. And don't forget: he made an alliance with Hitler in August 1939, helping to start WWII in Europe.

---

Absolutely,

The whole "USSR invaded Poland as well" fact seems to have been completely forgotten.

But its also shocking how FL and others continue to act like Stalin (the non-russian) and the Communist USSR was trying to "fight for Russia"

"On taking power the Bolsheviks ruthless suppressed Russian nationalists"

"The roots of nationalist discontent lay in Russia's peculiar status within the Soviet Union. After the Bolsheviks took control over much of the tsarist empire's former territory, Lenin declared 'war to the death on Great Russian chauvinism' and proposed to uplift the 'oppressed nations' on its peripheries. To combat imperial inequality, Lenin called for unity, creating a federation of republics divided by nationality. The republics forfeited political sovereignty in exchange for territorial integrity, educational and cultural institutions in their own languages, and the elevation of the local 'titular' nationality into positions of power. Soviet policy, following Lenin, conceived of the republics as homelands for their respective nationalities (with autonomous regions and districts for smaller nationalities nested within them). The exception was the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, or RSFSR, which remained an administrative territory not associated with any ethnic or historic 'Russia'.

Russia was the only Soviet republic that did not have its own Communist Party, capital, or Academy of Sciences."

---

Bolshevik ideology held that nationalism didn't matter; class did. So anyone who disagreed (for any reason) was 'repressed.' That does not in any way change the fact that the USSR was a Russian system, headquarted in Russia, constructed by Russians for the benefit of Russians, with such inclusion of other nationalities as was necessary to ensure effective administration throughout the empire. The soviet state expanded territorially in the exact same ways as prior and subsequent Russian regimes - for the benefit of Russia. only the boilerplate justification changed.

---

The USSR leadership held the ideology that RUSSIA NATIONALISM was bad

(they actually helped foster nationalism among the ethnic minority groups...read the articles...ethnic based republics, ethnic affirmative action programs, etc.)

And it is laughable....and bad history...to say that the USSR was constructed as a russian state to serve the interests of ethnic Russians.

It was from its conception (until its death) a Leftist-Socialist State that served its ideology and leadership class....NOT the Russian people.

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

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Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some GREAT lengths to minimize it. LIKE NO OTHER COUNTRY BEFORE.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

FIFY

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

Its also not "isolationist" to not want the USA getting sucked into anymore costly wars in the Middle East or Eastern Europe

But that does not stop people from throwing out those kind of stupid accusations

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Whoa

Whiterock is a good dude. We don't agree on every single topic.
So what ?

Your post is totally out of bounds.

You need to delete it.

---

It was absolutely an appropriate response to someone belittling Christian murders by Israel.

I wont tolerate any of the Pro-Zionists excusing the death of any Christians on Israel's behalf.

---

so why do you then tolerate Hizballah killing Christians by the hundreds?

---

I don't.

I havent shed any tears or defended Hezballah in anyway.

America is a nation built by Christian/Anglo men.

If we insist on meddling in the region, the only groups we should support militarily and financially are the Christian groups.

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Whoa

Whiterock is a good dude. We don't agree on every single topic.
So what ?

Your post is totally out of bounds.

You need to delete it.

---

It was absolutely an appropriate response to someone belittling Christian murders by Israel.

I wont tolerate any of the Pro-Zionists excusing the death of any Christians on Israel's behalf.

---

so why do you then tolerate Hizballah killing Christians by the hundreds?

---

I don't.

I havent shed any tears or defended Hezballah in anyway.

America is a nation built by Christian/Anglo men.

If we insist on meddling in the region, the only groups we should support militarily and financially are the Christian groups.

---

or perhaps we could take a more sensible approach and support the people who support us, people with whom we have a common interest, regardless of what their religion is.

If we can peel off a bunch of islamic countries to help us kill really bad terrorists who have killed thousands of OUR CITIZENS, why on earth would we not do that? If we can ally with Hindus to counter Pakistani islamism, why would we not do that? If we can ally with people of the Shinto faith to counter China and North Korea expansionism, why would we not do that? If we can ally with Jews to smoke terrorists supported by a nearly nuclear capable regime who chants "Death to America" on a regular basis, why on earth would we not leap at the opportunity to do so?

Do we really care about the race or religion of the people bombing the Houthis, as long as it keeps the shipping lanes open?

You really are not thinking at all on these issues. You should try it for a change.

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.

More on Israel taking out the leader of Hamas:

https://notthebee.com/article/it-looks-like-israel-just-sent-hamas-boss-yahya-sinwar-to-meet-his-maker-

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some GREAT lengths to maximize it.

---

FIFY

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

With our weapons...so not really.

---

That only further proves the point.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

With our weapons...so not really.

---

That only further proves the point.

---

Not if your point is that Israel is handling its own problems. Did I miss something?

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

With our weapons...so not really.

---

That only further proves the point.

---

Not if your point is that Israel is handling its own problems. Did I miss something?

---

You want to dictate how they handle their problems.

---

I don't want to support certain things. That's not dictating.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

With our weapons...so not really.

---

That only further proves the point.

---

Not if your point is that Israel is handling its own problems. Did I miss something?

---

You want to dictate how they handle their problems.

---

I don't want to support certain things. That's not dictating.

---

Spin it however you want, it still proves my original point.

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

What the hell does this even mean?

What was the last year in which Israel wasnt stealing American tax dollars?

There has never been a time when Israel was entirely self-funded by the Jewish diaspora without stealing tax dollars from the very gentiles they look down upon.

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

What the hell does this even mean?

What was the last year in which Israel wasnt stealing American tax dollars?

There has never been a time when Israel was entirely self-funded by the Jewish diaspora without stealing tax dollars from the very gentiles they look down upon.

---

haha, I bet you think the Jews killed Jesus.

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

---

There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

Everyone?

The rest of the world has historically been critical of the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians

America mostly does not care.

This war has not changed that dynamic

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

Everyone?

The rest of the world has historically been critical of the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians

America mostly does not care.

This war has not changed that dynamic

---

They were going lite on them and the *****ing was high. Doesn't look so terrible now.

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

---

There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

---

The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

---

The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

---

This is certainly one of the stupidest posts I have read in awhile.

You make some astounding claims that the US is benefiting but provide no evidence.

It is more accurate that a very select few may have financially benefited from Israel's kleptoparasitic relationship with the US while the great majority had their tax dollars stolen.

Americans are getting poorer and poorer and people are done with foreigners receiving more benefits from their own tax dollars than they receive themselves!

Everything Kaibear said is the truth and if you and the three other posters who liked your post refuse to even debate honestly then we need another civil war in this country... it can be the supporters of America being a vassal state for Israel side vs everyone else.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

---

With our weapons...so not really.

---

That only further proves the point.

---

Not if your point is that Israel is handling its own problems. Did I miss something?

---

You want to dictate how they handle their problems.

---

I don't want to support certain things. That's not dictating.

---

Spin it however you want, it still proves my original point.

---

You should buy me a new boat, then. Otherwise I don't appreciate you dictating how I spend my money.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Stating historical facts is not an attack.

---

Russia wants to have secure borders...and looks for "anchor" points...like oceans and mountain ranges to have natural borders.

There is nothing inherently "aggressive" about the Russian character.

The USA also seeks "anchor" points on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans...and we secured those.

Now the Turks were more "aggressive" for the sake of being aggressive...and engaging in Islamic conquest

Russian geography explains most of its historic moves....

---

First, policy critics argue to the mat that Russia has no territorial ambitions, that Russian expansionism is a figment of Nato imagination to justify Nato imperial expansionsim. Then, in order to impeach the wisdom of including Turkey as a member of Nato,

---

1. No one doubts the wisdom of bringing Turkey into NATO during the cold war...it was the right call

(deny USSR total control of the Black sea, hold Bosphorus strait choke point, have missiles closer to Moscow)

People just complain about the Turks today....increasingly islamist, neo-Ottoman aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, always getting into fights with the EU leadership, etc.

2. Russian territorial ambitions have been well known.....they want to secure their sphere of influence and protect themselves from possible invasion....they have wanted to do that for centuries.

That means keeping countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Georgia on team Moscow.

Its D.C. elites who have to explain why they are so territorial ambitious that they want to risk proxy wars to pull those 4 countries out of the Russian sphere of influence...and expand NATO all the way to the Russian border.

---

NATO's value to Turkey is rapidly diminishing. Turkey has been snubbed by the EU for decades and is now seeking membership in BRICS. They stand to benefit enormously from China's Belt and Road project. They certainly have no intention of sending their troops as cannon fodder for a Western war against Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the alliance eventually. They'll take Europe's largest army with them when they go, rendering NATO permanently irrelevant.

---

You have cornerstone BRICS members wanting out of BRICS. The addition of Turkey would only drive India further away from it. China and India are the only 2 relevant economies in that fledgling alliance, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE are much more pro West unlike Russia and Iran.

---

BRICS has a higher combined population and GDP than the G7. In a few short years it will have its own payment system. Even if you ignore the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which is frankly odd), we're going to great lengths to antagonize China and Russia (which are both relevant, despite the juvenile trash talk from US officials).

It's not just that Turkey is unhappy with an issue here and there, either, like EU rejection or the genocide in Gaza. NATO policy wonks are actively floating ideas to curtail their influence within the alliance and ultimately drive them out. And contrary to Western propaganda, fear of "expansionist" Russia isn't the overwhelming motivator in East European and West Asian countries that we're led to believe.

---

India and China are in essence enemies with active border disputes and recent clashes. Every single other member has problematic economies and Turkey would only add to that.

What you're doing is just what the Kremlin wants, which is promo something they want the world to believe in, but more importantly help them circumvent sanctions for their invasion. If India pulls out, you'll have for the most part a consortium of despotic regimes with corruption filled economic and legal systems. Amazing how lost some of you are.

---

Actually this is really ****ing simple.

Name one thing Putin has done since he became President that has directly had a negative impact on your family? Has Russia threatened your safety or taken money out of your wallet?

If the answer is "not really", maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities and develop some self-preservation instincts.

Speaking for myself, the only people who have severely harmed me and the interests of my family are the odious people running the American government and their supporters.

---

Russia has threatened my family and taken money out of my pocket. But keep justifying and cheerleading for something like BRICs which its primary effort is to undermine the dollar and U.S. economic power, which if successful could remove our currency supremacy, and you'd feel it like nothing you've ever felt economically before.

---

So when you argued that BRICS was irrelevant, what you really meant was that it's the biggest economic threat to the US in our lifetime.

Interesting example of denialism at work there.

---

There are much bigger threats to dollar supremacy than BRICs. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of you guys cheering on something that would aid in that outcome. I think the appropriate phrase is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

---

No one is cheering. I'm the one who's been warning about it the whole time. Our policies couldn't be better calculated to isolate us if we wanted them to.

---

Or maybe they're trying to isolate themselves so they can act with impunity.

---

Yeah, it's the world that's isolating itself from us, with the "sole purpose" of undermining our economy. It's got nothing to do with our bullying or our hypocrisy.

Maybe it feels better to look at it that way, but the end result is the same. You want to police the world, you can expect pushback.

---

One man's bully is another man's protector apparently.

---

Supposedly. Yet as too many have learned, while American bullying may be dangerous, our protection is often fatal.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Stating historical facts is not an attack.

---

Russia wants to have secure borders...and looks for "anchor" points...like oceans and mountain ranges to have natural borders.

There is nothing inherently "aggressive" about the Russian character.

The USA also seeks "anchor" points on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans...and we secured those.

Now the Turks were more "aggressive" for the sake of being aggressive...and engaging in Islamic conquest

Russian geography explains most of its historic moves....

---

First, policy critics argue to the mat that Russia has no territorial ambitions, that Russian expansionism is a figment of Nato imagination to justify Nato imperial expansionsim. Then, in order to impeach the wisdom of including Turkey as a member of Nato,

---

1. No one doubts the wisdom of bringing Turkey into NATO during the cold war...it was the right call

(deny USSR total control of the Black sea, hold Bosphorus strait choke point, have missiles closer to Moscow)

People just complain about the Turks today....increasingly islamist, neo-Ottoman aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, always getting into fights with the EU leadership, etc.

2. Russian territorial ambitions have been well known.....they want to secure their sphere of influence and protect themselves from possible invasion....they have wanted to do that for centuries.

That means keeping countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Georgia on team Moscow.

Its D.C. elites who have to explain why they are so territorial ambitious that they want to risk proxy wars to pull those 4 countries out of the Russian sphere of influence...and expand NATO all the way to the Russian border.

---

NATO's value to Turkey is rapidly diminishing. Turkey has been snubbed by the EU for decades and is now seeking membership in BRICS. They stand to benefit enormously from China's Belt and Road project. They certainly have no intention of sending their troops as cannon fodder for a Western war against Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the alliance eventually. They'll take Europe's largest army with them when they go, rendering NATO permanently irrelevant.

---

You have cornerstone BRICS members wanting out of BRICS. The addition of Turkey would only drive India further away from it. China and India are the only 2 relevant economies in that fledgling alliance, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE are much more pro West unlike Russia and Iran.

---

BRICS has a higher combined population and GDP than the G7. In a few short years it will have its own payment system. Even if you ignore the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which is frankly odd), we're going to great lengths to antagonize China and Russia (which are both relevant, despite the juvenile trash talk from US officials).

It's not just that Turkey is unhappy with an issue here and there, either, like EU rejection or the genocide in Gaza. NATO policy wonks are actively floating ideas to curtail their influence within the alliance and ultimately drive them out. And contrary to Western propaganda, fear of "expansionist" Russia isn't the overwhelming motivator in East European and West Asian countries that we're led to believe.

---

India and China are in essence enemies with active border disputes and recent clashes. Every single other member has problematic economies and Turkey would only add to that.

What you're doing is just what the Kremlin wants, which is promo something they want the world to believe in, but more importantly help them circumvent sanctions for their invasion. If India pulls out, you'll have for the most part a consortium of despotic regimes with corruption filled economic and legal systems. Amazing how lost some of you are.

---

Actually this is really ****ing simple.

Name one thing Putin has done since he became President that has directly had a negative impact on your family? Has Russia threatened your safety or taken money out of your wallet?

If the answer is "not really", maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities and develop some self-preservation instincts.

Speaking for myself, the only people who have severely harmed me and the interests of my family are the odious people running the American government and their supporters.

---

Russia has threatened my family and taken money out of my pocket. But keep justifying and cheerleading for something like BRICs which its primary effort is to undermine the dollar and U.S. economic power, which if successful could remove our currency supremacy, and you'd feel it like nothing you've ever felt economically before.

---

So when you argued that BRICS was irrelevant, what you really meant was that it's the biggest economic threat to the US in our lifetime.

Interesting example of denialism at work there.

---

There are much bigger threats to dollar supremacy than BRICs. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of you guys cheering on something that would aid in that outcome. I think the appropriate phrase is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

---

No one is cheering. I'm the one who's been warning about it the whole time. Our policies couldn't be better calculated to isolate us if we wanted them to.

---

Or maybe they're trying to isolate themselves so they can act with impunity.

---

Yeah, it's the world that's isolating itself from us, with the "sole purpose" of undermining our economy. It's got nothing to do with our bullying or our hypocrisy.

Maybe it feels better to look at it that way, but the end result is the same. You want to police the world, you can expect pushback.

---

One man's bully is another man's protector apparently.

---

Supposedly. Yet as too many have learned, while American bullying may be dangerous, our protection is often fatal.

---

Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Stating historical facts is not an attack.

---

Russia wants to have secure borders...and looks for "anchor" points...like oceans and mountain ranges to have natural borders.

There is nothing inherently "aggressive" about the Russian character.

The USA also seeks "anchor" points on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans...and we secured those.

Now the Turks were more "aggressive" for the sake of being aggressive...and engaging in Islamic conquest

Russian geography explains most of its historic moves....

---

First, policy critics argue to the mat that Russia has no territorial ambitions, that Russian expansionism is a figment of Nato imagination to justify Nato imperial expansionsim. Then, in order to impeach the wisdom of including Turkey as a member of Nato,

---

1. No one doubts the wisdom of bringing Turkey into NATO during the cold war...it was the right call

(deny USSR total control of the Black sea, hold Bosphorus strait choke point, have missiles closer to Moscow)

People just complain about the Turks today....increasingly islamist, neo-Ottoman aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, always getting into fights with the EU leadership, etc.

2. Russian territorial ambitions have been well known.....they want to secure their sphere of influence and protect themselves from possible invasion....they have wanted to do that for centuries.

That means keeping countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Georgia on team Moscow.

Its D.C. elites who have to explain why they are so territorial ambitious that they want to risk proxy wars to pull those 4 countries out of the Russian sphere of influence...and expand NATO all the way to the Russian border.

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NATO's value to Turkey is rapidly diminishing. Turkey has been snubbed by the EU for decades and is now seeking membership in BRICS. They stand to benefit enormously from China's Belt and Road project. They certainly have no intention of sending their troops as cannon fodder for a Western war against Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the alliance eventually. They'll take Europe's largest army with them when they go, rendering NATO permanently irrelevant.

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You have cornerstone BRICS members wanting out of BRICS. The addition of Turkey would only drive India further away from it. China and India are the only 2 relevant economies in that fledgling alliance, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE are much more pro West unlike Russia and Iran.

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BRICS has a higher combined population and GDP than the G7. In a few short years it will have its own payment system. Even if you ignore the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which is frankly odd), we're going to great lengths to antagonize China and Russia (which are both relevant, despite the juvenile trash talk from US officials).

It's not just that Turkey is unhappy with an issue here and there, either, like EU rejection or the genocide in Gaza. NATO policy wonks are actively floating ideas to curtail their influence within the alliance and ultimately drive them out. And contrary to Western propaganda, fear of "expansionist" Russia isn't the overwhelming motivator in East European and West Asian countries that we're led to believe.

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India and China are in essence enemies with active border disputes and recent clashes. Every single other member has problematic economies and Turkey would only add to that.

What you're doing is just what the Kremlin wants, which is promo something they want the world to believe in, but more importantly help them circumvent sanctions for their invasion. If India pulls out, you'll have for the most part a consortium of despotic regimes with corruption filled economic and legal systems. Amazing how lost some of you are.

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Actually this is really ****ing simple.

Name one thing Putin has done since he became President that has directly had a negative impact on your family? Has Russia threatened your safety or taken money out of your wallet?

If the answer is "not really", maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities and develop some self-preservation instincts.

Speaking for myself, the only people who have severely harmed me and the interests of my family are the odious people running the American government and their supporters.

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Russia has threatened my family and taken money out of my pocket. But keep justifying and cheerleading for something like BRICs which its primary effort is to undermine the dollar and U.S. economic power, which if successful could remove our currency supremacy, and you'd feel it like nothing you've ever felt economically before.

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So when you argued that BRICS was irrelevant, what you really meant was that it's the biggest economic threat to the US in our lifetime.

Interesting example of denialism at work there.

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There are much bigger threats to dollar supremacy than BRICs. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of you guys cheering on something that would aid in that outcome. I think the appropriate phrase is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

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No one is cheering. I'm the one who's been warning about it the whole time. Our policies couldn't be better calculated to isolate us if we wanted them to.

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Or maybe they're trying to isolate themselves so they can act with impunity.

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Yeah, it's the world that's isolating itself from us, with the "sole purpose" of undermining our economy. It's got nothing to do with our bullying or our hypocrisy.

Maybe it feels better to look at it that way, but the end result is the same. You want to police the world, you can expect pushback.

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One man's bully is another man's protector apparently.

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Supposedly. Yet as too many have learned, while American bullying may be dangerous, our protection is often fatal.

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Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

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Kamala's sock?

KaiBear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

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You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

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Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

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Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

---

There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

---

The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

---

The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

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This is certainly one of the stupidest posts I have read in awhile.

You make some astounding claims that the US is benefiting but provide no evidence.

It is more accurate that a very select few may have financially benefited from Israel's kleptoparasitic relationship with the US while the great majority had their tax dollars stolen.

Americans are getting poorer and poorer and people are done with foreigners receiving more benefits from their own tax dollars than they receive themselves!

Everything Kaibear said is the truth and if you and the three other posters who liked your post refuse to even debate honestly then we need another civil war in this country... it can be the supporters of America being a vassal state for Israel side vs everyone else.

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A civil war along geographical lines ( state vs state ) is highly unlikely.

A class war similar to the Spanish Civil War ( neighborhood vs neighborhood ) is increasingly possible.

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That's a good analogy. Barbearian should be careful what he wishes for.

KaiBear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

---

There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

---

The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

---

The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

---

This is certainly one of the stupidest posts I have read in awhile.

You make some astounding claims that the US is benefiting but provide no evidence.

It is more accurate that a very select few may have financially benefited from Israel's kleptoparasitic relationship with the US while the great majority had their tax dollars stolen.

Americans are getting poorer and poorer and people are done with foreigners receiving more benefits from their own tax dollars than they receive themselves!

Everything Kaibear said is the truth and if you and the three other posters who liked your post refuse to even debate honestly then we need another civil war in this country... it can be the supporters of America being a vassal state for Israel side vs everyone else.

---

A class war similar to the Spanish Civil War ( neighborhood vs neighborhood ) is increasingly possible.

---

Very likely on the ground (Americans are very divided in cultural, spiritual, political, ethnic lines)

But unlikely to actually take place because America's elite are very similar (uni-party and all)…..while in Spain they really hated each other and were willing to lead their tribes to war

FLBear5630 said:

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Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

---

I have seen nobody cheer for North Korea, or Iran for that matter.

A lot of legitimate questions about Israel have been raised - it's a wealthy first world nation that we are subsidizing at a point in our history when we are bankrupt and the standard of living and life expectancy of our own citizens is declining. That's a problem. The first responsibility of any American government is to the American citizen.

Likewise, there is a great deal of appreciation for countries like Hungary and Russia with traditionalist leaders who espouse traditional values and put the welfare of their own people first.

I'm a 1776 American. I have very little use for 2024 America.