Realitybites said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

---

I have seen nobody cheer for North Korea, or Iran for that matter.

A lot of legitimate questions about Israel have been raised - it's a wealthy first world nation that we are subsidizing at a point in our history when we are bankrupt and the standard of living and life expectancy of our own citizens is declining. That's a problem. The first responsibility of the any American government is to the American citizen.

Likewise, there is a great deal of appreciation for countries like Hungary and Russia with traditionalist leaders who espouse traditional values and put the welfare of their own people first.

I'm a 1776 American. I have very little use for 2024 America.

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

---

I have seen nobody cheer for North Korea, or Iran for that matter.

A lot of legitimate questions about Israel have been raised - it's a wealthy first world nation that we are subsidizing at a point in our history when we are bankrupt and the standard of living and life expectancy of our own citizens is declining. That's a problem. The first responsibility of the any American government is to the American citizen.

Likewise, there is a great deal of appreciation for countries like Hungary and Russia with traditionalist leaders who espouse traditional values and put the welfare of their own people first.

I'm a 1776 American. I have very little use for 2024 America.

---

Describe a 1776 American. Curious what that is.

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

---

I have seen nobody cheer for North Korea, or Iran for that matter.

A lot of legitimate questions about Israel have been raised - it's a wealthy first world nation that we are subsidizing at a point in our history when we are bankrupt and the standard of living and life expectancy of our own citizens is declining. That's a problem. The first responsibility of the any American government is to the American citizen.

Likewise, there is a great deal of appreciation for countries like Hungary and Russia with traditionalist leaders who espouse traditional values and put the welfare of their own people first.

I'm a 1776 American. I have very little use for 2024 America.

---

Describe a 1776 American. Curious what that is.

---

whitetrash said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

---

I have seen nobody cheer for North Korea, or Iran for that matter.

A lot of legitimate questions about Israel have been raised - it's a wealthy first world nation that we are subsidizing at a point in our history when we are bankrupt and the standard of living and life expectancy of our own citizens is declining. That's a problem. The first responsibility of the any American government is to the American citizen.

Likewise, there is a great deal of appreciation for countries like Hungary and Russia with traditionalist leaders who espouse traditional values and put the welfare of their own people first.

I'm a 1776 American. I have very little use for 2024 America.

---

Describe a 1776 American. Curious what that is.

---

Wears breeches and a powdered wig. Owns a slave or two. Has lost a wife and a couple kids to smallpox.

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

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With our weapons...so not really.

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That only further proves the point.

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Not if your point is that Israel is handling its own problems. Did I miss something?

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You want to dictate how they handle their problems.

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I don't want to support certain things. That's not dictating.

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Spin it however you want, it still proves my original point.

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You should buy me a new boat, then. Otherwise I don't appreciate you dictating how I spend my money.

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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Stating historical facts is not an attack.

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Russia wants to have secure borders...and looks for "anchor" points...like oceans and mountain ranges to have natural borders.

There is nothing inherently "aggressive" about the Russian character.

The USA also seeks "anchor" points on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans...and we secured those.

Now the Turks were more "aggressive" for the sake of being aggressive...and engaging in Islamic conquest

Russian geography explains most of its historic moves....

---

First, policy critics argue to the mat that Russia has no territorial ambitions, that Russian expansionism is a figment of Nato imagination to justify Nato imperial expansionsim. Then, in order to impeach the wisdom of including Turkey as a member of Nato,

---

1. No one doubts the wisdom of bringing Turkey into NATO during the cold war...it was the right call

(deny USSR total control of the Black sea, hold Bosphorus strait choke point, have missiles closer to Moscow)

People just complain about the Turks today....increasingly islamist, neo-Ottoman aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, always getting into fights with the EU leadership, etc.

2. Russian territorial ambitions have been well known.....they want to secure their sphere of influence and protect themselves from possible invasion....they have wanted to do that for centuries.

That means keeping countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Georgia on team Moscow.

Its D.C. elites who have to explain why they are so territorial ambitious that they want to risk proxy wars to pull those 4 countries out of the Russian sphere of influence...and expand NATO all the way to the Russian border.

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NATO's value to Turkey is rapidly diminishing. Turkey has been snubbed by the EU for decades and is now seeking membership in BRICS. They stand to benefit enormously from China's Belt and Road project. They certainly have no intention of sending their troops as cannon fodder for a Western war against Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the alliance eventually. They'll take Europe's largest army with them when they go, rendering NATO permanently irrelevant.

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You have cornerstone BRICS members wanting out of BRICS. The addition of Turkey would only drive India further away from it. China and India are the only 2 relevant economies in that fledgling alliance, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE are much more pro West unlike Russia and Iran.

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BRICS has a higher combined population and GDP than the G7. In a few short years it will have its own payment system. Even if you ignore the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which is frankly odd), we're going to great lengths to antagonize China and Russia (which are both relevant, despite the juvenile trash talk from US officials).

It's not just that Turkey is unhappy with an issue here and there, either, like EU rejection or the genocide in Gaza. NATO policy wonks are actively floating ideas to curtail their influence within the alliance and ultimately drive them out. And contrary to Western propaganda, fear of "expansionist" Russia isn't the overwhelming motivator in East European and West Asian countries that we're led to believe.

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India and China are in essence enemies with active border disputes and recent clashes. Every single other member has problematic economies and Turkey would only add to that.

What you're doing is just what the Kremlin wants, which is promo something they want the world to believe in, but more importantly help them circumvent sanctions for their invasion. If India pulls out, you'll have for the most part a consortium of despotic regimes with corruption filled economic and legal systems. Amazing how lost some of you are.

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Actually this is really ****ing simple.

Name one thing Putin has done since he became President that has directly had a negative impact on your family? Has Russia threatened your safety or taken money out of your wallet?

If the answer is "not really", maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities and develop some self-preservation instincts.

Speaking for myself, the only people who have severely harmed me and the interests of my family are the odious people running the American government and their supporters.

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Russia has threatened my family and taken money out of my pocket. But keep justifying and cheerleading for something like BRICs which its primary effort is to undermine the dollar and U.S. economic power, which if successful could remove our currency supremacy, and you'd feel it like nothing you've ever felt economically before.

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So when you argued that BRICS was irrelevant, what you really meant was that it's the biggest economic threat to the US in our lifetime.

Interesting example of denialism at work there.

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There are much bigger threats to dollar supremacy than BRICs. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of you guys cheering on something that would aid in that outcome. I think the appropriate phrase is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

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No one is cheering. I'm the one who's been warning about it the whole time. Our policies couldn't be better calculated to isolate us if we wanted them to.

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Or maybe they're trying to isolate themselves so they can act with impunity.

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Yeah, it's the world that's isolating itself from us, with the "sole purpose" of undermining our economy. It's got nothing to do with our bullying or our hypocrisy.

Maybe it feels better to look at it that way, but the end result is the same. You want to police the world, you can expect pushback.

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One man's bully is another man's protector apparently.

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Supposedly. Yet as too many have learned, while American bullying may be dangerous, our protection is often fatal.

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Redbrickbear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Realitybites said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Just curious, what has the West done to you to cheer for Iran, Putins Russia, N Korea? The most oppressive regimes on earth and your comments are US negative pretty much in every situation.

---

I have seen nobody cheer for North Korea, or Iran for that matter.

A lot of legitimate questions about Israel have been raised - it's a wealthy first world nation that we are subsidizing at a point in our history when we are bankrupt and the standard of living and life expectancy of our own citizens is declining. That's a problem. The first responsibility of the any American government is to the American citizen.

Likewise, there is a great deal of appreciation for countries like Hungary and Russia with traditionalist leaders who espouse traditional values and put the welfare of their own people first.

I'm a 1776 American. I have very little use for 2024 America.

---

Describe a 1776 American. Curious what that is.

---

Someone directly descended from one of these groups?

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

---

There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

---

The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

---

The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

---

This is certainly one of the stupidest posts I have read in awhile.
I hear you talking, but you aren't saying anything.

You make some astounding claims that the US is benefiting but provide no evidence.
I have provided quite a few, actually. It's you who are making the sweeping assumptions there is no benefit.

It is more accurate that a very select few may have financially benefited from Israel's kleptoparasitic relationship with the US while the great majority had their tax dollars stolen.
You mean like all the US defense contractors with hundreds of thousands of employees who sell billions of dollars of military hardware to Israel? Those things are actually used in combat, allowing us to beta test our stuff in real time without having to actually go to war to do so. There are millions of Jewish Amcits who have family in Israel and travel there; hundreds of thousands of dual citizens, and/or Israelis with claims on US citizenship (US persons). There are millions of American Christians who visit Israel to see the holy sites. Wife and daughter had a trip scheduled (via Baylor) but had to cancel last year after the Hamas attacks. Long/short of it is, there are substantial cultural, economic, and national security benefits from our relationship with Israel.

Americans are getting poorer and poorer and people are done with foreigners receiving more benefits from their own tax dollars than they receive themselves!
In an earlier day, leftists made that point about military spending everywhere. The problem with it is - it's a false dilemma. It's not "guns or butter." We are a nation which can afford to make BOTH guns and butter. Doing poorly at one does not mean you doing the other is unnecessary.

Everything Kaibear said is the truth and if you and the three other posters who liked your post refuse to even debate honestly then we need another civil war in this country... it can be the supporters of America being a vassal state for Israel side vs everyone else.
I have laid out a long list of benefits. Specifics. Many times. Yet here you are, making wild-assed nonsensical claims, like America being a "vassal state" of Israel, solely because you have a 1st grade understanding of national security policy issues.

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

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KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

---

You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

---

The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

---

There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

---

The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

---

The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

---

---

Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

---

whiterock said:

---

Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

---

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

---

What you describe as isolationism is in fact the realpolitik surrounding the sort of foreign policy that a country that is trillions in debt with a shrinking native population, with a declining standard of living and life expectancy can afford. The clearest manifestation of this is: "A new study from the Pentagon shows that 77% of young Americans would not qualify for military service without a waiver due to being overweight, using drugs or having mental and physical health problems."

We aren't living in Eisenhower and Alan Dulles' America anymore, and you need to quit pretending that we are.

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Israel is out of control.

If Iran was bombing the **** out of Christian communities in Lebanon our government would be having a total meltdown.

---

You obviously have never heard of an Iranian proxy group named "Hizballah." They've been doing that & more for decades.

---

Don't recall Hizballah slaughtering Christian Lebanese, but it's very possible they have, and our media didn't report it.

---

Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

---

Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

---

Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

---

Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

---

Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

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You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

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The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

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There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

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The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

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The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

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This is certainly one of the stupidest posts I have read in awhile.
I hear you talking, but you aren't saying anything.

You make some astounding claims that the US is benefiting but provide no evidence.
I have provided quite a few, actually. It's you who are making the sweeping assumptions there is no benefit.

It is more accurate that a very select few may have financially benefited from Israel's kleptoparasitic relationship with the US while the great majority had their tax dollars stolen.
You mean like all the US defense contractors with hundreds of thousands of employees who sell billions of dollars of military hardware to Israel? Those things are actually used in combat, allowing us to beta test our stuff in real time without having to actually go to war to do so. There are millions of Jewish Amcits who have family in Israel and travel there; hundreds of thousands of dual citizens, and/or Israelis with claims on US citizenship (US persons). There are millions of American Christians who visit Israel to see the holy sites. Wife and daughter had a trip scheduled (via Baylor) but had to cancel last year after the Hamas attacks. Long/short of it is, there are substantial cultural, economic, and national security benefits from our relationship with Israel.

Americans are getting poorer and poorer and people are done with foreigners receiving more benefits from their own tax dollars than they receive themselves!
In an earlier day, leftists made that point about military spending everywhere. The problem with it is - it's a false dilemma. It's not "guns or butter." We are a nation which can afford to make BOTH guns and butter. Doing poorly at one does not mean you doing the other is unnecessary.

Everything Kaibear said is the truth and if you and the three other posters who liked your post refuse to even debate honestly then we need another civil war in this country... it can be the supporters of America being a vassal state for Israel side vs everyone else.
I have laid out a long list of benefits. Specifics. Many times. Yet here you are, making wild-assed nonsensical claims, like America being a "vassal state" of Israel, solely because you have a 1st grade understanding of national security policy issues.

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Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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If this war proves anything, everyone talks about letting Israel handle its own problems until Israel starts handling its own problems.

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With our weapons...so not really.

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That only further proves the point.

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Not if your point is that Israel is handling its own problems. Did I miss something?

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You want to dictate how they handle their problems.

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I don't want to support certain things. That's not dictating.

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Spin it however you want, it still proves my original point.

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You should buy me a new boat, then. Otherwise I don't appreciate you dictating how I spend my money.

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You willingly sold me a boat. Now you want to tell me where and how I can drive it.

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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Stating historical facts is not an attack.

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Russia wants to have secure borders...and looks for "anchor" points...like oceans and mountain ranges to have natural borders.

There is nothing inherently "aggressive" about the Russian character.

The USA also seeks "anchor" points on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans...and we secured those.

Now the Turks were more "aggressive" for the sake of being aggressive...and engaging in Islamic conquest

Russian geography explains most of its historic moves....

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First, policy critics argue to the mat that Russia has no territorial ambitions, that Russian expansionism is a figment of Nato imagination to justify Nato imperial expansionsim. Then, in order to impeach the wisdom of including Turkey as a member of Nato,

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1. No one doubts the wisdom of bringing Turkey into NATO during the cold war...it was the right call

(deny USSR total control of the Black sea, hold Bosphorus strait choke point, have missiles closer to Moscow)

People just complain about the Turks today....increasingly islamist, neo-Ottoman aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East, always getting into fights with the EU leadership, etc.

2. Russian territorial ambitions have been well known.....they want to secure their sphere of influence and protect themselves from possible invasion....they have wanted to do that for centuries.

That means keeping countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Georgia on team Moscow.

Its D.C. elites who have to explain why they are so territorial ambitious that they want to risk proxy wars to pull those 4 countries out of the Russian sphere of influence...and expand NATO all the way to the Russian border.

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NATO's value to Turkey is rapidly diminishing. Turkey has been snubbed by the EU for decades and is now seeking membership in BRICS. They stand to benefit enormously from China's Belt and Road project. They certainly have no intention of sending their troops as cannon fodder for a Western war against Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the alliance eventually. They'll take Europe's largest army with them when they go, rendering NATO permanently irrelevant.

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You have cornerstone BRICS members wanting out of BRICS. The addition of Turkey would only drive India further away from it. China and India are the only 2 relevant economies in that fledgling alliance, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE are much more pro West unlike Russia and Iran.

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BRICS has a higher combined population and GDP than the G7. In a few short years it will have its own payment system. Even if you ignore the oil-producing countries of the Middle East (which is frankly odd), we're going to great lengths to antagonize China and Russia (which are both relevant, despite the juvenile trash talk from US officials).

It's not just that Turkey is unhappy with an issue here and there, either, like EU rejection or the genocide in Gaza. NATO policy wonks are actively floating ideas to curtail their influence within the alliance and ultimately drive them out. And contrary to Western propaganda, fear of "expansionist" Russia isn't the overwhelming motivator in East European and West Asian countries that we're led to believe.

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India and China are in essence enemies with active border disputes and recent clashes. Every single other member has problematic economies and Turkey would only add to that.

What you're doing is just what the Kremlin wants, which is promo something they want the world to believe in, but more importantly help them circumvent sanctions for their invasion. If India pulls out, you'll have for the most part a consortium of despotic regimes with corruption filled economic and legal systems. Amazing how lost some of you are.

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Actually this is really ****ing simple.

Name one thing Putin has done since he became President that has directly had a negative impact on your family? Has Russia threatened your safety or taken money out of your wallet?

If the answer is "not really", maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities and develop some self-preservation instincts.

Speaking for myself, the only people who have severely harmed me and the interests of my family are the odious people running the American government and their supporters.

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Russia has threatened my family and taken money out of my pocket. But keep justifying and cheerleading for something like BRICs which its primary effort is to undermine the dollar and U.S. economic power, which if successful could remove our currency supremacy, and you'd feel it like nothing you've ever felt economically before.

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So when you argued that BRICS was irrelevant, what you really meant was that it's the biggest economic threat to the US in our lifetime.

Interesting example of denialism at work there.

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There are much bigger threats to dollar supremacy than BRICs. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of you guys cheering on something that would aid in that outcome. I think the appropriate phrase is to "cut off your nose to spite your face".

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No one is cheering. I'm the one who's been warning about it the whole time. Our policies couldn't be better calculated to isolate us if we wanted them to.

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Or maybe they're trying to isolate themselves so they can act with impunity.

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Yeah, it's the world that's isolating itself from us, with the "sole purpose" of undermining our economy. It's got nothing to do with our bullying or our hypocrisy.

Maybe it feels better to look at it that way, but the end result is the same. You want to police the world, you can expect pushback.

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One man's bully is another man's protector apparently.

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Supposedly. Yet as too many have learned, while American bullying may be dangerous, our protection is often fatal.

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This is absolute tripe.

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Isolationists" have a 1st Grade understanding of national security, but your idea of strategic benefit is...the fact that Israel is a popular tourist destination? That's amusing.

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Osodecentx said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Isolationists" have a 1st Grade understanding of national security, but your idea of strategic benefit is...the fact that Israel is a popular tourist destination? That's amusing.

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Isolationists ran the show until December 7, 1941

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Osodecentx said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Isolationists" have a 1st Grade understanding of national security, but your idea of strategic benefit is...the fact that Israel is a popular tourist destination? That's amusing.

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Isolationists ran the show until December 7, 1941

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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We have a worldwide economy, strategic military agreements and/or strategic trade agreements with nations in every part of the world. The US is not nor will it ever again be an isolationist nation.

Move the discussion along

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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We have a worldwide economy, strategic military agreements and/or strategic trade agreements with nations in every part of the world. The US is not nor will it ever again be an isolationist nation.

Move the discussion along

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Redbrickbear said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

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What you describe as isolationism is in fact the realpolitik surrounding the sort of foreign policy that a country that is trillions in debt with a shrinking native population, with a declining standard of living and life expectancy can afford. The clearest manifestation of this is: "A new study from the Pentagon shows that 77% of young Americans would not qualify for military service without a waiver due to being overweight, using drugs or having mental and physical health problems."

We aren't living in Eisenhower and Alan Dulles' America anymore, and you need to quit pretending that we are.

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And even Eisenhower (the great American hero and WWII general) was warning decades ago against endless foreign entanglements and the growing power of the Military industrial complex

[In a speech of less than 10 minutes, on January 17, 1961, President Dwight Eisenhower delivered his political farewell to the American people on national television from the Oval Office of the White House. Those who expected the military leader and hero of World War II to depart his Presidency with a nostalgic, "old soldier" speech like Gen. Douglas MacArthur's, were surprised at his strong warnings about the dangers of the "military-industrial complex."]

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

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What you describe as isolationism is in fact the realpolitik surrounding the sort of foreign policy that a country that is trillions in debt with a shrinking native population, with a declining standard of living and life expectancy can afford. The clearest manifestation of this is: "A new study from the Pentagon shows that 77% of young Americans would not qualify for military service without a waiver due to being overweight, using drugs or having mental and physical health problems."

We aren't living in Eisenhower and Alan Dulles' America anymore, and you need to quit pretending that we are.

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Redbrickbear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Isolationists" have a 1st Grade understanding of national security, but your idea of strategic benefit is...the fact that Israel is a popular tourist destination? That's amusing.

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Isolationists ran the show until December 7, 1941

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Again, you act like that was a bad thing

The USA had no legal reason and no electoral mandate to preemptively get involved with World War II

After Pearl Harbor (and the later German declaration of war) the USA had a mandate to fight that war to total victory....knowing we had the legal and moral right to defend ourselves.

You think the USA should have attacked Japan and Germany for no reason?

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Isolationists" have a 1st Grade understanding of national security, but your idea of strategic benefit is...the fact that Israel is a popular tourist destination? That's amusing.

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Isolationists ran the show until December 7, 1941

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Again, you act like that was a bad thing

The USA had no legal reason and no electoral mandate to preemptively get involved with World War II

After Pearl Harbor (and the later German declaration of war) the USA had a mandate to fight that war to total victory....knowing we had the legal and moral right to defend ourselves.

You think the USA should have attacked Japan and Germany for no reason?

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what, exactly, did we do to make Japan and Germany declare war against us?

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Isolationists" have a 1st Grade understanding of national security, but your idea of strategic benefit is...the fact that Israel is a popular tourist destination? That's amusing.

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Whiterock is a Jew-slave liar.

Israel could murder his entire gentile family and he be wishing them happy Hanukkah two months from now.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians were/are actually passive allies because their interests align.

It is the Sunni Lebanese factions that are killing all the Christians in Lebanon.

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Of all the bad things I worry might happen to my family, slaughter at the hands of Jews is simply not on the list.
I see Jews/Israeli as natural allies, in a number of areas. Not all of them agree with me. That's ok.
Same cannot be said of Arab Christians. Not a lot of warm fuzzies there toward Jews.
Lebanon is a 4-way balancing act - Christians, Sunnis, Shiites, Druze, with even more significant outside players - Iran, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, USA, France, etc.....
Without Iranian support, the Shia would go back to being the hillbillies of Lebanon.

Christians and Alawites form a coalition govt in Syria, because they are each minorities in a sea of mostly (75%) Sunnis. That has not exactly translated to Lebanon at all. The Syrian regime in fact is allied with Iran and facilitates support for Hizballah in Lebanon (not Christians or Druze, each of which would have a closer tie to the Assad regime were it all about faith).

faith matters and motivates. But the end of the day, Lebanon is a very messy place that defies easy alignments. most significantly for the purposes of this discussion, it is a failed state which hosts a terrorist army that has killed thousands of Americans, and many more others. Israel is under no obligation to endure daily waves of rocketry from southern Lebanon just to keep from pissing you off.

You should thank Israel for sacrificing their young men and women to destroy Hamas and Hizballah on our behalf. Their efforts actually do make all of us safer.

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Informative post.

However I don't agree that Israeli killings of Christian Lebanese and various Muslims makes US citizens safer. In fact just the opposite.

The existence of Israel and the incredible amount of influence their money purchases within our government has resulted
in the placement of thousands of US sailors and ground troops in the region. Where they are killed, and in return kill their antagonists. All to protect Israel and ( on a side note ) oil shipments from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. None of which protects US citizens.

No other country provides such military assistance to Israel.
It remains an unjustifiable habit, purchased by Israeli lobbyists over the last 60 years.

Time for a new policy.

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Oh calm down. Israel is not wantonly attacking anyone. Israel is killing Hizballah and Hamas leadership. Collateral damage will happen. Israel goes to some lengths to minimize it.

Israel is doing what should have been done decades ago....systematically destroying Iranian allied terrorist groups. We need to send them the arms & ammo to get on with it. It makes us safer.

You should read up on Hizballah. They've killed an awful lot of Americans. So has Hamas.......

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Strange rebuttal.

As I am certainly calm.

Our government must refrain from being bought like sheep by Israeli lobbyists and sending our servicemen in harms way protecting Israel.
We don't need lobbyists to persuade us to arm Israel to kill Hamas and Hizballah.

We have had this money for protection relationship since the 50's and it's past time to get US servicemen out of the region.
We have a token number of US servicemen in the region, doing work that needs doing - killing terrorists.

No other country has burdened its self with sacrificing its servicemen and billions of dollars protecting Israel.
LOL we are not sacrificing our soldier to protect Israel ISRAEL is sacrificing its own soldiers for its own national security, and we get a direct benefit from that, as Israel's enemies in the region are also ours.

And it's not remotely antisemitic to question the continuation of such policies for almost 60 years.

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You will note that I typically refrain from doing that, but I will admit it takes quite a bit of restraint to do so since the arguments against our policy toward Israel are so insanely out of touch with national security realities that anti-semitism is the most obvious explanation.

We get more bang for the buck out of our aid to Israel than anywhere else in the world.

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The whole point is there is zero need for billions of US bucks in the Middle East if we allow Israel to fight their own wars.
You have it exactly backwards. Israel cannot fight its own wars without our support. it's 12m people nestled in the middle of billions of people who detest Jews for who they are. That makes Israel an incredibly loyal ally. They have destroyed one Iranian proxy army (Hamas) and are now setting about destroying another (Hizballah). That will curtail Iranian influence throughout the region. And we won't have to shed a drop of blood to do it. The Israelis will do all the work for us. Win/Win.

No other country on earth spends the lives or money for Israel like does the United States.
Because no other nation is as large or has as broad an array of interests as we do.

It's time for the US to adopt the same attitude as the rest of the world.
Plumb goofy. We are not Switzerland or Chile or Sri Lanka.

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There are few foreign policy arguments weaker than the idea that we are wasting money on Israel.

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The US tax payer has been footing the bill of aid for Israel for almost SIXTY years.
yes

A ridiculous amount of time for any country to receive so much money.
unless there is a substantial return on investment, which there is (although reasonable people can quibble about matters of degree).

And it's only maintained because Israeli lobbyists have established long term ' relationships ' with key members of our government.
There's where you left the rails. Our policy toward Israel has little to do with lobbying and everything to do with national interest fortified by domestic policy considerations. We are much better off WITH the existence of Israel than without, and the Jewish vote is not unimportant to either party.

No other country in the world plays the fool in such a manner regarding Israel.
Most of the world benefits from our support for Israel, including quite a few islamic countries.

If Israel can't support their own wars after almost 60 years of US aid; that is their responsibility; not ours.
What war does Israel fight that is not wholly are partly also our wars?

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The arguments of Israel opponents have a massive faulty assumption - that the USA derives no policy benefits from our support for Israel, and/or would be better off without Israel.

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Isolationism as a way of avoiding war is really, really dumb. It's a leading cause of war.

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"Isolationism once cleared the way for America's ascent, making the country prosperous, powerful, and secure. Today, however, the Founders' admonition against entangling alliances has fallen into disrepute, and the word isolationist itself has become an insult. In the absence of constraints on the nation's ambition abroad, American grand strategy has fallen prey to overstretch and grown politically insolvent.

The nation now confronts a seemingly unlimited array of foreign entanglements, two decades of errant war in the Middle East, and a pandemic that is causing an economic debacle of a sort not experienced since the Great Depression.

The United States needs to rediscover the history of isolationism and apply its lessons, shrinking its footprint abroad and bringing its foreign commitments back into line with its means and purposes."


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/virtue-isolationism/616499/

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Isolationism is a really, really dumb idea today. It will solve not a single problem. It will only make each one of them worse. Perhaps the dumbest aspect of isolationism is the presumption that it is necessary to achieve a balanced budget. Reality is, it will only make a very small percentage of government spending available for domestic use. It will have zero impact on deficits at all - cause/effect error - foreign aid and military spending are not what drives our deficit.

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