ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

Hollywood only cares about the Nazis so no one knows that or cares….

FLBear5630 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

historian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Actually, WWII did not provide a true economic recovery. Sure, we had full employment and our factories were humming 24-7 but they were producing weapons of war with no other uses. They did nothing to help the American people except putting them to work (11 million in uniform). But total war is not the kind of economy we want. True recovery did not happen until after the war ended, along with wage and price controls. The baby boom & release of pent up demand for consumer goods did the rest.

---

It did salvage us from the Great Depression. We were in a second depressive cycle in the late 30s, and the manufacturing boost, from weapons to steel goods lifted us out. The post war recovery was driven by the manufacturing and heavy industry vacuum created by the war that we were well positioned to fill given our investment leading up to and during. We also rebuilt both our allies and former enemies economies as well, and carried the heavy lift early. The capital markets also changed post war and solidified the U.S. as the financing capital of the world.

We certainly can't live long term on a war economy, nor should we want to, but the impact of WW2 was an economic altering event for the U.S. that we fortunately translated into peace time success.

---

It turned into peace time success because we rebuilt Europe and Japan, the innovations in technology and processes, and finally the experience the population received in fighting the war. The overall skill set of the Nation increased dramatically. No way the Interstate system, Apollo or other advancements happen without that experience we got in WW2. It was a Nation-changer because EVERYONE had skin in the game. That does not happen now, can you imagine LeBron going to bootcamp? Or Tom Brady being a fighter pilot because we needed it? They would buy their way out.

---

I agree we should have some type of obligatory nation service requirement before you are allowed to unlock your full rights as a US citizen... but the Democrats would never go for it

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

Osodecentx said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Good grief

Again, Roosevelt did not 'sacrifice' Pearl Harbor. He miscalculated believing the Japanese didn't have the ability to cross the Pacific undetected with a carrier force large enough to inflict significant damage.

However he knew without US oil Japan either had to bow to US demands to end their war in China or their military operations would grind to a halt.

The American public did NOT want still another war in Europe.
So Roosevelt manipulated one in the Pacific.

But he believed the initial attack would be in the Philippines.

Pearl Harbor was a total shock to him.

---

Do you have a source for your Roosevelt miscalculation, & beliefs, and manipulations?

---

Yes

Years of reading various books on the subject.

You can begin with: The Rising Sun in the Pacific

by Samuel Eliot Morrison

He wrote the definitive volumes of the US Navy during WW2.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

Hollywood only cares about the Nazis so no one knows that or cares….

---

The Nazis certainly deserve the treatment they get, but you're not wrong that the Japanese have been treated very kindly relative to their actions, unlike the Nazis.

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Good grief

Again, Roosevelt did not 'sacrifice' Pearl Harbor. He miscalculated believing the Japanese didn't have the ability to cross the Pacific undetected with a carrier force large enough to inflict significant damage.

However he knew without US oil Japan either had to bow to US demands to end their war in China or their military operations would grind to a halt.

The American public did NOT want still another war in Europe.
So Roosevelt manipulated one in the Pacific.

But he believed the initial attack would be in the Philippines.

Pearl Harbor was a total shock to him.

---

Roosevelt didn't manipulate anything. He tried to use economic pressure to force Japan to end their wars of conquest and accompanying barbarism. He failed and that provoked Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Wake Island, Guam, etc. But all that was their fault. They could have engaged in serious good faith negotiations and they could have signaled a genuine willingness to end their. We had no obligation to supply their war machine with the raw materials it needed (petroleum & scrap metal primarily). FDR made the moral and proper decision aligned with American interests.

---

Spoken totally from the perspective of the winners.

From the Japanese perspective they had just as much right to colonies in the Pacific region as those dominated by the US, England, Holland and France.

Roosevelt manipulated the American people step by step into their 2nd world war in less than 25 years.
Over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

And after the war was 'won'.........communists controlled almost half of Europe, half of Korea, and all of China.

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Correct.

KaiBear said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Good grief

Again, Roosevelt did not 'sacrifice' Pearl Harbor. He miscalculated believing the Japanese didn't have the ability to cross the Pacific undetected with a carrier force large enough to inflict significant damage.

However he knew without US oil Japan either had to bow to US demands to end their war in China or their military operations would grind to a halt.

The American public did NOT want still another war in Europe.
So Roosevelt manipulated one in the Pacific.

But he believed the initial attack would be in the Philippines.

Pearl Harbor was a total shock to him.

---

Do you have a source for your Roosevelt miscalculation, & beliefs, and manipulations?

---

Yes

Years of reading various books on the subject.

You can begin with: The Rising Sun in the Pacific

by Samuel Eliot Morrison

He wrote the definitive volumes of the US Navy during WW2.

---

Read the National Archives, the letters of the actual people are there and referenced.

The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

historian said:

---

The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

---

Japan faced at least 3 years of near famine conditions during the US occupation. According to Japanese narratives approximately 50,000 Japanese women were raped by US servicemen. To this day the United States Navy still has a major base on the Japanese coast.

Just imagine how Americans would feel if Turkey had a major military base in the United States for almost 70 years.

Germany had similar conditions although I'm unaware of how many accusations of rape by American GIs there were.

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

If Israel insists on destroying civilian targets in Lebanon, let them buy and build their own weapons. American taxpayers should not be funding this. pic.twitter.com/xR3VLzmWYo

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) October 23, 2024

Redbrickbear said:

---

If Israel insists on destroying civilian targets in Lebanon, let them buy and build their own weapons. American taxpayers should not be funding this. pic.twitter.com/xR3VLzmWYo

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) October 23, 2024

---

Mossad is going to assassinate this guy for being uppity.

The American people need to know their place, which is in a supine position with an AIPAC boot on their throat.

historian said:

---

Germany had similar conditions although I'm unaware of how many accusations of rape by American GIs there were.

---

Unfortunately rape as a weapon of war/occupation was wide spread by all sides of WWII (if at different levels)

And we are learning more about that all the time as the sigma of discussing it fades.

It makes for some very very very sad reading

Japan and the Soviet Union stand out of from the crowd when it comes to institutionalized barbarity

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

historian said:

---

Germany had similar conditions although I'm unaware of how many accusations of rape by American GIs there were.

---

Historian, I made you aware of the culture of rape within the IDF and you ignored me.

Is it acceptable for soldiers of the world's most moral army to be raping white British teens on holiday in Cyprus?

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course it isnt.

You'll never agree to cut financial or military aid.

There is never a blood tithe exorbitant enough to appease you globalists either in the middle east, eastern Europe, or here at home in the good 'ol US of A where thousands of Americans are taking their own lives everyday because their own government prioritizes foreigners over them for a supposed 0.1% growth in GDP

Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source of information.

I ignore most of your posts because they are insulting in their absurdity and they tend towards antisemitism.

historian said:

---

The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

---

The German people already knew what the Americans were. I don't think they had been told we were the devil. The Japanese on the other hand had an epiphany finding out that we weren't devils like they'd been told.

How does this play into the recoveries of each nation.

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Kai's "source on FDR's actions and motives is Samuel Eliot Morrison't (History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, apparently all 15 volumes, IOW, he doesn't know. He is borrowing his opinion from some internet crank.

KaiBear said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Good grief

Again, Roosevelt did not 'sacrifice' Pearl Harbor. He miscalculated believing the Japanese didn't have the ability to cross the Pacific undetected with a carrier force large enough to inflict significant damage.

However he knew without US oil Japan either had to bow to US demands to end their war in China or their military operations would grind to a halt.

The American public did NOT want still another war in Europe.
So Roosevelt manipulated one in the Pacific.

But he believed the initial attack would be in the Philippines.

Pearl Harbor was a total shock to him.

---

Do you have a source for your Roosevelt miscalculation, & beliefs, and manipulations?

---

Yes

Years of reading various books on the subject.

You can begin with: The Rising Sun in the Pacific

by Samuel Eliot Morrison

He wrote the definitive volumes of the US Navy during WW2.

---

There are 15 volumes, I'm sure you read all of them. In which volume does Morrison write of Roosevelt's manipulation, miscalculation and beliefs?

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?

---

Technically they already had Manchuria

I think you mean their war on the rest of China

In fact they had held Manchuria (Manchukuo) for more than a decade by the time the USA entered WWII

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasion_of_Manchuria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo

historian said:

---

Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source of information.

---

Certainly its editors/content moderators have bias....no doubt

But read the sources...they are often actuate history books

Unfortunately rape was wide spread in WWII

Pretty horrific stuff

Osodecentx said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Good grief

Again, Roosevelt did not 'sacrifice' Pearl Harbor. He miscalculated believing the Japanese didn't have the ability to cross the Pacific undetected with a carrier force large enough to inflict significant damage.

However he knew without US oil Japan either had to bow to US demands to end their war in China or their military operations would grind to a halt.

The American public did NOT want still another war in Europe.
So Roosevelt manipulated one in the Pacific.

But he believed the initial attack would be in the Philippines.

Pearl Harbor was a total shock to him.

---

Do you have a source for your Roosevelt miscalculation, & beliefs, and manipulations?

---

Yes

Years of reading various books on the subject.

You can begin with: The Rising Sun in the Pacific

by Samuel Eliot Morrison

He wrote the definitive volumes of the US Navy during WW2.

---

There are 15 volumes, I'm sure you read all of them. In which volume does Morrison write of Roosevelt's manipulation, miscalculation and beliefs?

---

I do own the entire set. Gave them as a gift to my Father. Upon his death Dad gave them back to me.

FYI in Volume 6 Breaking the Bismarck Barrier...there is a gruesome picture of my Dad's destroyer....the USS Selfridge after it had been hit by a Japanese 'long lance' torpedo. Over 48 of My Dad's shipmates were slaughterd. Google it....amazing picture.

The Rising Sun in the Pacific is a great place to begin. There are many others accounts worth reading as well.

BTW Roosevelt wasn't evil.....he simply errored. But hundreds of thousands of American died as a result. And in the end the Sovier Union dominated eastern Europe instead of Germany; and China became dominated by Mao instead of by Japan.

Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source of information.

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Certainly its editors/content moderators have bias....no doubt

But read the sources...they are often actuate history books

Unfortunately rape was wide spread in WWII

Pretty horrific stuff

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John W. Dower has written that while the R.A.A. was in place "the incidence of rape remained relatively low given the huge size of the occupation force".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDower1999130-26][26][/url] Dower wrote: "According to one calculation, the number of rapes and assaults on Japanese women amounted to around 40 daily while the R.A.A was in operation, and then rose to an average of 330 a day after it was terminated in early 1946".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDower1999579-28][28][/url] According to Dower, "more than a few incidents" of assault and rape were never reported to the police.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDower1999211-29][29][/url]
Brian Walsh states that while the American occupation forces had a criminal element and many rapes occurred, "there is no credible evidence of the mass rape of Japanese women by American soldiers during the occupation", and claims that such occurrences are not supported by the available documentation.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWalsh20181203-32][[/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan

Osodecentx said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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historian said:

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Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source of information.

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Certainly its editors/content moderators have bias....no doubt

But read the sources...they are often actuate history books

Unfortunately rape was wide spread in WWII

Pretty horrific stuff

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John W. Dower has written that while the R.A.A. was in place "the incidence of rape remained relatively low given the huge size of the occupation force".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDower1999130-26][26][/url]

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I said rape was wide spread in WWII....an undeniable fact

I never said it was widely practiced by American troops in either Japan or Germany or sanctioned by American leadership

Austria gov. kept records of what troops were committing crimes....no reason to think these figures were much different in Germany proper.

[According to Austrian police records for 1946, "men in Soviet uniform", usually drunk, accounted for more than 90% of registered crime (in comparison, U.S. soldiers accounted for 5% to 7%)]

Not to mention that American and British troop crimes were usually theft of property and vandalism....not rape and murder.

ps

The French might have been a different story

[French troops took part in the invasion of Germany, and France was assigned an occupation zone in Germany. Perry Biddiscombe quotes the original survey estimates that the French for instance committed "385 rapes in the Constance area; 600 in Bruchsal; and 500 in Freudenstadt." French Army soldiers were alleged to have committed widespread rape in the Höfingen District near Leonberg.

According to Norman Naimark, French Moroccan troops matched the behaviour of Soviet troops when it came to rape, in particular in the early occupation of Baden and Wurttemberg.]

ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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ATL Bear said:

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America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

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Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

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Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

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So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

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It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

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Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

historian said:

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I ignore most of your posts because they are insulting in their absurdity and they tend towards antisemitism.

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So let me get this straight, objecting to IDF soldiers committing gang rapes is insulting... to the gang raping IDF soldiers?!?!?

Is this real life????

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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historian said:

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The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

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The German people already knew what the Americans were. I don't think they had been told we were the devil. The Japanese on the other hand had an epiphany finding out that we weren't devils like they'd been told.

How does this play into the recoveries of each nation.

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Nazi propaganda had plenty of negative things to say about the US during the war. I think much of it, naturally, exaggerated the power & influence of Jews. But win not entirely sure. My research on Nazi propaganda focused on the prewar era & events in Europe.

Both nations experienced rapid & dramatic recoveries ("economic miracles") mainly because of free market (capitalist) reforms by their governments. The seed money to rebuild from all the destruction came from the US: the Marshall Plan in Europe and a similar program for Japan.

historian said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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historian said:

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The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

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The German people already knew what the Americans were. I don't think they had been told we were the devil. The Japanese on the other hand had an epiphany finding out that we weren't devils like they'd been told.

How does this play into the recoveries of each nation.

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Nazi propaganda had plenty of negative things to say about the US during the war. I think much of it, naturally, exaggerated the power & influence of Jews. But win not entirely sure. My research on Nazi propaganda focused on the prewar era & events in Europe.

Both nations experienced rapid & dramatic recoveries ("economic miracles") mainly because of free market (capitalist) reforms by their governments. The seed money to rebuild from all the destruction came from the US: the Marshall Plan in Europe and a similar program for Japan.

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What I think is interesting is if you look at Germany and Japan then look at the British Colonial Cities, such as Hong Kong, Singapore, Halifax, Vancouver, and others the one thing the West gave those areas, similar to the Marshall Plan/Japan, is the structure to be successful as Capitalist. It is not just a bank or factory, the whole infrastructure was left in place to build off. I love visiting old British Colonial Cities, you can see it.

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

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That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

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On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

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Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

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Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

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Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

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Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

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Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

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So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

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Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

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Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.