historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

And thousands of Americans died enforcing the hypocrisy.

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source of information.

---

Certainly its editors/content moderators have bias....no doubt

But read the sources...they are often actuate history books

Unfortunately rape was wide spread in WWII

Pretty horrific stuff

---

Unfortunately, rape has been widespread throughout human history, notably in times of war.

Roosevelt definitely erred in various actions. At times he did seem evil, particularly domestic politics.

The_barBEARian said:

---

historian said:

---

I ignore most of your posts because they are insulting in their absurdity and they tend towards antisemitism.

---

So let me get this straight, objecting to IDF soldiers committing gang rapes is insulting... to the gang raping IDF soldiers?!?!?

Is this real life????

---

The credibility of those charges is suspect. I don't accept Hamas propaganda or Leftist media (often the same thing) as reliable sources.

Good point.

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

And thousands of Americans died enforcing the hypocrisy.

---

That is true. A truly cynical view of events would have the US opposed to imperialism because of the threat to American colonies. The reality is, America did view Germany & Japan is a bigger threat than that and they probably were. Those governments were evil and extremely ambitious. Success only increased their ambition making them a bigger threat to everyone. They had to be stopped and we certainly had no obligation to provide Japan with fundamental tools for their war machine. We had every right to impose the embargo. And it most definitely was in our long term interest.

One more point about America's colony in the region, the Philippines: we gave them their independence after the war. For what it's worth, we did the right thing even if late and maybe not entirely for the right reasons. Gif all out flaws as a nation, the US at least has a history of horrify thde greater injustices: slavery, mistreatment of Native Americans, imperialism, etc. It remains to be seen if we will end the barbaric American Holocaust (abortion on demand).

historian said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

historian said:

---

The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

---

The German people already knew what the Americans were. I don't think they had been told we were the devil. The Japanese on the other hand had an epiphany finding out that we weren't devils like they'd been told.

How does this play into the recoveries of each nation.

---

Nazi propaganda had plenty of negative things to say about the US during the war. I think much of it, naturally, exaggerated the power & influence of Jews. But win not entirely sure. My research on Nazi propaganda focused on the prewar era & events in Europe.

Both nations experienced rapid & dramatic recoveries ("economic miracles") mainly because of free market (capitalist) reforms by their governments. The seed money to rebuild from all the destruction came from the US: the Marshall Plan in Europe and a similar program for Japan.

---

to my knowledge, I don't think there were any occurrences in Europe of mass suicides as ally troops approached as there was on Saipan and Okinawa. IMHO some of that was cultural and some of that was that the American soldiers had beef portrayed as monsters.

Japan's citizens had little to no exposure to western anglos.

(ps… I've studied none of this but just have impressions of how it went down)

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

historian said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

historian said:

---

The Japanese had a similar postwar experience compared to Germany:
- postwar devastation
- war crimes trials
- center of Cold War tensions
- became an ally
- rebuilt with American aid
- economic recovery using American aid funds and based on free market reforms, an "economic miracle"

I think the differences in their experiences can be explained by cultural variations and unique circumstances.

---

The German people already knew what the Americans were. I don't think they had been told we were the devil. The Japanese on the other hand had an epiphany finding out that we weren't devils like they'd been told.

How does this play into the recoveries of each nation.

---

Nazi propaganda had plenty of negative things to say about the US during the war. I think much of it, naturally, exaggerated the power & influence of Jews. But win not entirely sure. My research on Nazi propaganda focused on the prewar era & events in Europe.

Both nations experienced rapid & dramatic recoveries ("economic miracles") mainly because of free market (capitalist) reforms by their governments. The seed money to rebuild from all the destruction came from the US: the Marshall Plan in Europe and a similar program for Japan.

---

to my knowledge, I don't think there were any occurrences in Europe of mass suicides as ally troops approached as there was on Saipan and Okinawa. IMHO some of that was cultural and some of that was that the American soldiers had beef portrayed as monsters.

Japan's citizens had little to no exposure to western anglos.

(ps… I've studied none of this but just have impressions of how it went down)

---

In Europe ….no.

In the Pacific there were mass suicides of Japanese civilians in Saipan and of civilians on Okinawa.

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

---

The estimated 195,000 American soldiers who did not die in an invasion of Japan are certainly grateful

---

They'd have been equally grateful if we'd accepted Japan's surrender. They'd have been even more grateful if we'd accepted Japan's offer to withdraw from China and avoided the war altogether. Of course by 1945 it was too late for the 100,000 or more Americans who had already died.

Excellent point. Japanese civilians did commit mass suicide because the propaganda left them terrified. That was a big difference and it was largely cultural.

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No one wants to be under foreign rule.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

---

The estimated 195,000 American soldiers who did not die in an invasion of Japan are certainly grateful

---

They'd have been equally grateful if we'd accepted Japan's surrender. They'd have been even more grateful if we'd accepted Japan's offer to withdraw from China and avoided the war altogether. Of course by 1945 it was too late for the 100,000 or more Americans who had already died.

---

Millions of Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Filipino, and everyone else including large numbers of Japanese.

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No one wants to be under foreign rule.

---

True

(Same goes for the Palestinians)

Though many might economically flourish under a different set of rulers

The Palestinians in Israel have always been under foreign rule, for thousands of years: before Israel it was the British, the Ottoman Turks, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Babylonians, and the ancient state of Israel. That's 2500+ years!

If they want to avoid that, they can move to any of several Arab states in the region as they are Arabs too. Their real problem is that they are so uncivilized that their fellow Arabs don't want them either. That's not Israel's fault. They have had multiple offers of a "two state" solution since the modern state of Israel was created in 1948 and they always rejected it. That's on them.

It's about time for them to accept reality and start acting civilized. That means no more terrorism or support for it. Until they accept the existence of and a willingness to exist in peace with the Jewish state of Israel they will never have peace. It's all on them.

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No one wants to be under foreign rule.

---

True

(Same goes for the Palestinians)

Though many might economically flourish under a different set of rulers

---

Is Hamas considered foreign?

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

---

Japanese are brown people? I mean it fits with the absurdity of your reply, but who knew?

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course it isnt.

You'll never agree to cut financial or military aid.

There is never a blood tithe exorbitant enough to appease you globalists either in the middle east, eastern Europe, or here at home in the good 'ol US of A where thousands of Americans are taking their own lives everyday because their own government prioritizes foreigners over them for a supposed 0.1% growth in GDP

---

You have any proof about American suicides relating to foreign aid? Just curious how unhinged this assertion really is.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

historian said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No one wants to be under foreign rule.

---

True

(Same goes for the Palestinians)

Though many might economically flourish under a different set of rulers

---

Is Hamas considered foreign?

---

No, but more like a radical party that took power in a coup in Gaza

We have seen that before

(Cambodia, Germany, Russia, ect)

A two State solution does not sound so bad in this situation as well…

We need an immediate ceasefire, and a two-state solution in Turkey 🇹🇷 https://t.co/480Tr3NjpM

— Dr. Eli David (@DrEliDavid) October 23, 2024

Sam Lowry said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

---

The estimated 195,000 American soldiers who did not die in an invasion of Japan are certainly grateful

---

They'd have been equally grateful if we'd accepted Japan's surrender. They'd have been even more grateful if we'd accepted Japan's offer to withdraw from China and avoided the war altogether. Of course by 1945 it was too late for the 100,000 or more Americans who had already died.

---

Or the Chinese, Koreans, Who died

No. They are Palestinians themselves elected by the people.

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course it isnt.

You'll never agree to cut financial or military aid.

There is never a blood tithe exorbitant enough to appease you globalists either in the middle east, eastern Europe, or here at home in the good 'ol US of A where thousands of Americans are taking their own lives everyday because their own government prioritizes foreigners over them for a supposed 0.1% growth in GDP

---

You have any proof about American suicides relating to foreign aid? Just curious how unhinged this assertion really is.

---

Most of what he says is unhinged. Bigotry will do that.

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

---

The estimated 195,000 American soldiers who did not die in an invasion of Japan are certainly grateful

---

They'd have been equally grateful if we'd accepted Japan's surrender. They'd have been even more grateful if we'd accepted Japan's offer to withdraw from China and avoided the war altogether. Of course by 1945 it was too late for the 100,000 or more Americans who had already died.

---

Or the Chinese, Koreans, Who died

---

I guess you have a problem with the US winning or doing anything positive. Should have just left and let them do their thing.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

America didn't know or understand the enemies they were facing, and was falling backwards economically. WW2 ended up saving us from the Great Depression and positioned us as the top global economic and military power moving forward.

Both Japan and Germany were attempting to invade and conquer their way into that stature, under despotism and terror no less, and were rightly thwarted from such. We tried to address it through sanction and proxy, but both chose direct war with us instead.

---

Sounds a lot like Israel!

Far right politicians rally to call for creating Gaza settlements

Read the comments if you want a feel for the general public mood.

I think you specifically had said something about what the Japanese did in China makes Gaza look like a pillow fight... 42,603 reported dead in Gaza from Israeli military actions... Japanese killed 50,000-60,000 in the rape of Nanjing. Whether you like Palestinians or not, its impossible to deny Gaza is the modern day Rape of Nanjing.

---

Not even close. The Japanese did more akin to Hamas but on a much greater scale. In 6 weeks they killed closer to 200,000 and raped 10,000s of thousands of women and children.

---

So once Israel kills 200,000 Palestinians, Lebanese, and Christians... which shouldn't be too much longer... will you finally agree we need to cut off financial and military aid?

---

It's not about body count. This is an apple and an orange.

---

Of course not. We aren't like those yucky brown people who kill each other with bayonets. We use only the most advanced technology. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should have been grateful to be part of the experiment.

---

The estimated 195,000 American soldiers who did not die in an invasion of Japan are certainly grateful

---

They'd have been equally grateful if we'd accepted Japan's surrender. They'd have been even more grateful if we'd accepted Japan's offer to withdraw from China and avoided the war altogether. Of course by 1945 it was too late for the 100,000 or more Americans who had already died.

---

Or the Chinese, Koreans, Who died

---

I guess you have a problem with the US winning or doing anything positive. Should have just left and let them do their thing.

---

Either I don't understand what I said or you don't

I'll PM tomorrow

The_barBEARian said:

---

historian said:

---

Germany had similar conditions although I'm unaware of how many accusations of rape by American GIs there were.

---

Historian, I made you aware of the culture of rape within the IDF and you ignored me.

Is it acceptable for soldiers of the world's most moral army to be raping white British teens on holiday in Cyprus?

---

Based on the October surprise leak from Kamala Harris... you must now be a HUGE Trump supporter!
Kackles McKneepads says that Trump admires Hitler and hates Jews... sounds like your wet dream has become real!

🇮🇱🇺🇲 A majority of young Republicans in the US now support an arms embargo on Israel.

Part of why Israel is behaving so aggressively now is they know the blank cheque from the US is due to expire. The left is already lost for Zionists – without the right, they have nothing. https://t.co/RyMr4EMmLM

— Keith Woods (@KeithWoodsYT) October 24, 2024

Redbrickbear said:

---

🇮🇱🇺🇲 A majority of young Republicans in the US now support an arms embargo on Israel.

Part of why Israel is behaving so aggressively now is they know the blank cheque from the US is due to expire. The left is already lost for Zionists – without the right, they have nothing. https://t.co/RyMr4EMmLM

— Keith Woods (@KeithWoodsYT) October 24, 2024

---

This is exactly what I have been posted on this board several times. Most Americans under 40 do NOT support Israel. That is not just coming from progressives under 40, but conservatives as well.

ShooterTX said:

---

The_barBEARian said:

---

historian said:

---

Germany had similar conditions although I'm unaware of how many accusations of rape by American GIs there were.

---

Historian, I made you aware of the culture of rape within the IDF and you ignored me.

Is it acceptable for soldiers of the world's most moral army to be raping white British teens on holiday in Cyprus?

---

Based on the October surprise leak from Kamala Harris... you must now be a HUGE Trump supporter!
Kackles McKneepads says that Trump admires Hitler and hates Jews... sounds like your wet dream has become real!

---

If Trump governs in his next term like he did in his first term AND also ends all foreign aid, including aid to Israel, he will be remembered as one of the greatest American Presidents in history.

"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

historian said:

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"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

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It also does not exclusively apply to national Israel.

The promise to national Israel is found in Exodus 19:5-6.

"Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

That is most certainly conditional.

Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

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That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

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On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

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Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

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Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

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Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

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Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

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Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

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So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?

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Technically they already had Manchuria

I think you mean their war on the rest of China

In fact they had held Manchuria (Manchukuo) for more than a decade by the time the USA entered WWII

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasion_of_Manchuria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo

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is that a distinction that makes a difference? They were in Manchuria (a part of China) and expanding further into China (and elsewhere). They were building that "greater east asia co-prosperity sphere" they talked so much about, were they not?

How far did we have to let them go before it became a problem for us?

you complain about about us profiteering off of the Russo-Ukrianian war, yet how is what you propose (selling unlimited oil to Japanese imperial expansion at the point of a bayonet) any different?

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

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So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

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Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

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Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

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Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

And thousands of Americans died enforcing the hypocrisy.

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so obviously the answer was to let Japan take over the job?
didn't we grant the Philippines independence of our own volition?
what happened to all our other very short-lived colonies?

Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

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Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

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No way!

The Japanese committed horrific atrocities in Manchuria and China. They would NOT be better off under Japanese rule.
The Japanese were horribly racist towards both Chinese and Korean people.