The U.S. granted independence to the Philippines after the war. Guam, Wake Island, etc are still possessions.

Japan was an Allied Power in World War I.

23 years later they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Such a drastic change requires some self examination. It is also a lesson on how quickly the world can change.

boognish_bear said:

---

.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

---

we'll if she's not the president, who is.

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Again, we see the implicit presumption that America has a moral obligation to stand aside and let other countries do whatever they hell they want so long as they do not cross our orders, and that such will ensure a long-lasting peace.

How can any rational individual believe that the pathway to peace and prosperity for the American people was to let Japan build a "greater east asia co-propsperity sphere" all the way up to our shores?

---

Japan never had any desire to even go to Australia, much less to our shores.

By to same token, why the the US feel entitled to make the Philippines our colony ? We even implemented concentration camps where thousands of civilians died. None of our actions in that region bear close inspection.

You insist on a double standard, in regards to Japan.
No slam, as with with your CIA indoctrination it is perfectly understandable.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

---

we'll if she's not the president, who is.

---

The media doesn't know, libs don't know, nobody knows, so it's a nameless shadow cabal apparently that our State media has no interest in. Crazy times that no one knows who is acting president.

This is supposedly a government run for and by the people, but nobody can state who's running things and the press doesn't even care. Libs aren't bothered one bit because the TV hasn't told them to care. They are a humorous sad bunch.

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Again, we see the implicit presumption that America has a moral obligation to stand aside and let other countries do whatever they hell they want so long as they do not cross our orders, and that such will ensure a long-lasting peace.

How can any rational individual believe that the pathway to peace and prosperity for the American people was to let Japan build a "greater east asia co-propsperity sphere" all the way up to our shores?

---

Japan never had any desire to even go to Australia, much less to our shores.

By to same token, why the the US feel entitled to make the Philippines our colony ? We even implemented concentration camps where thousands of civilians died. None of our actions in that region bear close inspection.

You insist on a double standard, in regards to Japan.
No slam, as with with your CIA indoctrination it is perfectly understandable.

---

The US fought a war against Spain. You can argue the merits of that war if you want... but you are making sound as if America sailed across the Pacific and invaded the Philippines. No, Spain invaded the Philippines and Guam and Puerto Rico and Cuba and many other places. America won the war with Spain, and we took all of those places as the spoils of war. We have since given independence to Cuba and the Philippines probably a massive mistake as neither of them has flourished since. Compare the current state of Cuba to Puerto Rico, for example.

If Japan never had any desire to go to Australia... then why did Japan invade Australia? They literally attacked and even occupied parts of Australia. You do know that New Guinea was part of Australia in the 1940s, right?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

---

we'll if she's not the president, who is.

---

Good question. Nobody knows although there are some theories as to who is pulling the strings.

ShooterTX said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Again, we see the implicit presumption that America has a moral obligation to stand aside and let other countries do whatever they hell they want so long as they do not cross our orders, and that such will ensure a long-lasting peace.

How can any rational individual believe that the pathway to peace and prosperity for the American people was to let Japan build a "greater east asia co-propsperity sphere" all the way up to our shores?

---

Japan never had any desire to even go to Australia, much less to our shores.

By to same token, why the the US feel entitled to make the Philippines our colony ? We even implemented concentration camps where thousands of civilians died. None of our actions in that region bear close inspection.

You insist on a double standard, in regards to Japan.
No slam, as with with your CIA indoctrination it is perfectly understandable.

---

The US fought a war against Spain. You can argue the merits of that war if you want... but you are making sound as if America sailed across the Pacific and invaded the Philippines. No, Spain invaded the Philippines and Guam and Puerto Rico and Cuba and many other places. America won the war with Spain, and we took all of those places as the spoils of war. We have since given independence to Cuba and the Philippines probably a massive mistake as neither of them has flourished since. Compare the current state of Cuba to Puerto Rico, for example.

If Japan never had any desire to go to Australia... then why did Japan invade Australia? They literally attacked and even occupied parts of Australia. You do know that New Guinea was part of Australia in the 1940s, right?

---

LOL

New Guinea was and remains a **** hole. Japan only wanted a toe hold on the coast for an air field from which to attack
Australian supply lines.

Might as well mention how Japan 'occupied' the US by attacking Attu and Kiska island far out in the Aleutians.

Spoils of war …..seriously ?

What about the freedom that was promised to the people of the Philippines and Cuba during the Spanish American War ?

Do you have any idea how many thousands of Philippine civilians died in our concentration camps ? Or because they were US concentration camps were those poor people any
less dead ?

Spanish-American War, 1898
Yes, the US did take those territories after the war and we did give Cuba their independence as promised in the Teller amendment although we did keep Gitmo.

historian said:

---

Spanish-American War, 1898
Yes, the US did take those territories after the war and we did give Cuba their independence as promised in the Teller amendment although we did keep Gitmo.

---

You know just how horribly one sided the Teller amendent was right ?

It allowed the US to dominate Cuba politically and economically for decades.

historian said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

---

we'll if she's not the president, who is.

---

Good question. Nobody knows although there are some theories as to who is pulling the strings.

---

Netanyahu.

I had never seen congress so obsequious and united than when Israel's God Emperor spoke. I think the number of standing ovations broke records.

I'm waiting for them to tear down the Lincoln memorial and replace it with a statue of Netanyahu.

KaiBear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Again, we see the implicit presumption that America has a moral obligation to stand aside and let other countries do whatever they hell they want so long as they do not cross our orders, and that such will ensure a long-lasting peace.

How can any rational individual believe that the pathway to peace and prosperity for the American people was to let Japan build a "greater east asia co-propsperity sphere" all the way up to our shores?

---

Japan never had any desire to even go to Australia, much less to our shores.

By to same token, why the the US feel entitled to make the Philippines our colony ? We even implemented concentration camps where thousands of civilians died. None of our actions in that region bear close inspection.

You insist on a double standard, in regards to Japan.
No slam, as with with your CIA indoctrination it is perfectly understandable.

---

The US fought a war against Spain. You can argue the merits of that war if you want... but you are making sound as if America sailed across the Pacific and invaded the Philippines. No, Spain invaded the Philippines and Guam and Puerto Rico and Cuba and many other places. America won the war with Spain, and we took all of those places as the spoils of war. We have since given independence to Cuba and the Philippines probably a massive mistake as neither of them has flourished since. Compare the current state of Cuba to Puerto Rico, for example.

If Japan never had any desire to go to Australia... then why did Japan invade Australia? They literally attacked and even occupied parts of Australia. You do know that New Guinea was part of Australia in the 1940s, right?

---

LOL

New Guinea was and remains a **** hole. Japan only wanted a toe hold on the coast for an air field from which to attack
Australian supply lines.

Might as well mention how Japan 'occupied' the US by attacking Attu and Kiska island far out in the Aleutians.

Spoils of war …..seriously ?

What about the freedom that was promised to the people of the Philippines and Cuba during the Spanish American War ?

Do you have any idea how many thousands of Philippine civilians died in our concentration camps ? Or because they were US concentration camps were those poor people any
less dead ?

---

I know quite a bit about the Philippines. Some of my family spent time in the military there, and I have read the letters they wrote home.
One of the letters was really amazing. He was begging his brother to send him his old Colt revolver ASAP, because the gun given him by the US military was not effective. The local tribesmen (as he described them) would attack them, while hopped up on some kind of drugs. He described shooting one 6 times with his small service revolver, but the "indian" never hit the ground. Instead he was able to slash 2 service men with his machette, before another soldier killed him with a shotgun. In fact, it was stories like this one from my great-great uncle, which lead the US Military to adopt the 1911 45ACP to replace the 38 revolver.
In his letters he described how the civilized Philpinos hated the wild muslim "indians" who would attack from the jungles. They were there to protect the civilized folks from the wild & rabid tribal types. And yes, many of them were captured and kept in prison camps.
What you neglect to understand is that there had been tribal conflicts in the Philippines for centuries. It only got worse when the Spanish created cities and colonies in the islands. Some of the locals embraced civilization while others fought it. Many of the locals were very happy to have the US military round up the wild ones.

I'm not here to say that it was done correctly or to argue in favor of anything... just pointing out that you are painting a very incomplete picture of the actual facts.

And yes... the Spoils of War concept has existed throughout history and continues to today. Do you not recognize that Crimea was annexed by Russian during the Obama years, as a spoil of war? America is the only nation in human existence which has overthrown a government, only to give the nation back to the people. We did that in Cuba, Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, Japan, Germany and many other examples.
No other nation has done this, outside of situations when they were acting as allies of the United States.

The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

---

we'll if she's not the president, who is.

---

Good question. Nobody knows although there are some theories as to who is pulling the strings.

---

Netanyahu.

I had never seen congress so obsequious and united than when Israel's God Emperor spoke. I think the number of standing ovations broke records.

I'm waiting for them to tear down the Lincoln memorial and replace it with a statue of Netanyahu.

---

That's just silly.
It completely contradicts your earlier statements.

You have said that Israel wouldn't exist without the support of America. And now you are saying that Netanyahu is actually running America? Why would Netanyahu take actions that will lead to the destruction of America, if he knows that his nation is toast without the protections of America? If Netanyahu was truly in charge of America, he would be doing everything he could do to insure the prosperity & strength of America... in order to insure the existence of Israel.

No... there is no logical way anyone can make the argument that Netanyahu is actually in control of the Biden Administration. Biden and Obama have been the most anti-Israel administrations in recent history. They have also both fully and openly supported Iran, Hams, Hezbollah and other Palestinian terrorist groups. Are you saying that Bibi actually wants to destroy the Jews and Israel? If he is the power behind Biden, then he is actively pursuing suicide and the genocide of the Jewish people.

historian said:

---

"I will bless those who bless Jesus, And I will curse him who curses Jesus; And in Jesus all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

---

Christ is King.

ShooterTX said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

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That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No way!

The Japanese committed horrific atrocities in Manchuria and China. They would NOT be better off under Japanese rule.
The Japanese were horribly racist towards both Chinese and Korean people.

---

Not under the rule of the war mongering Imperial Japanese

I mean the hard working, efficient, industrious Japanese of today.

Lee Kaun Yew talked about their character

Is China blessed by God? It is the world's largest economy today. Saudi Arabia and the UAE? There are a lot of ways to build wealth. Prosperity is not prima facie evidence of divine blessing.

You say, "Before the Jews began to repopulate the land... it was just a worthless desert in the eyes of the world."

How does this square with the Bible's description of it from Numbers 13 before the Jews ever got there?

"Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: "We went to the land where you sent us. It truly [g]flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."

ShooterTX said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

---

LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

---

we'll if she's not the president, who is.

---

Good question. Nobody knows although there are some theories as to who is pulling the strings.

---

Netanyahu.

I had never seen congress so obsequious and united than when Israel's God Emperor spoke. I think the number of standing ovations broke records.

I'm waiting for them to tear down the Lincoln memorial and replace it with a statue of Netanyahu.

---

That's just silly.
It completely contradicts your earlier statements.

You have said that Israel wouldn't exist without the support of America. And now you are saying that Netanyahu is actually running America? Why would Netanyahu take actions that will lead to the destruction of America, if he knows that his nation is toast without the protections of America? If Netanyahu was truly in charge of America, he would be doing everything he could do to insure the prosperity & strength of America... in order to insure the existence of Israel.

No... there is no logical way anyone can make the argument that Netanyahu is actually in control of the Biden Administration. Biden and Obama have been the most anti-Israel administrations in recent history. They have also both fully and openly supported Iran, Hams, Hezbollah and other Palestinian terrorist groups. Are you saying that Bibi actually wants to destroy the Jews and Israel? If he is the power behind Biden, then he is actively pursuing suicide and the genocide of the Jewish people.

---

I think they realize that the next generation of Americans are done financially supporting Israel. They were too greedy and authoritarian and they lost the hearts and minds of young Americans... also shifting demographics will lead to the white, Christian population, which has historically been willing to sacrifice their own children for Israel, becoming a minority in America in a decade or two for the first time.

So realizing America is in decline and they have lost the PR battle with young Americans, they are using the enormous power they still wield over American politicians to "empty the vault" and solidify their position in the middle east. They are draining as much financial and military support as they can and I am predicting a massive Israeli attack on Iran following the Nov 5th election that will suck the American mercenaries who call themselves the US Navy and US Air Force into fighting a war on behalf of a foreign country.

If Biden and Obama are examples of being "anti-Israel" you are proving my point. If you look at their actions, they did every single thing Israel ever asked of them with the exception of un-freezing some Iranian money which had been held in escrow since the 70ties.

Besides the Iran nuclear deal, name one other instance of Biden or Obama not fully capitulating to whatever Israel wants?

Israel was settling West Bank when Obama was President and he still gave them historic levels of foreign aid.

The rhetoric is just controlled opposition... empty words that are said to placate the anger of their constituents and get them re-elected. Their policies speak for whom they truly support. Republican... Democrat... it doesn't matter who is in office because Netanyahu has always been calling the shots.

Redbrickbear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

---

Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

.

---

Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

---

No way!

The Japanese committed horrific atrocities in Manchuria and China. They would NOT be better off under Japanese rule.
The Japanese were horribly racist towards both Chinese and Korean people.

---

Not under the rule of the war mongering Imperial Japanese

I mean the hard working, efficient, industrious Japanese of today.

Lee Kaun Yew talked about their character

---

The Japanese post-WW2 are very different than before WW2. One thing they share in common is their distrust of outsiders and their belief that the Japanese are superior to all other races.
It was this latter belief which caused the Japanese to be the most horrific & oppressive occupiers in the history of Imperialism. The Japanese were humiliated by their defeat. They have lost all desire to conquer or dominate. They just want to be left alone now.
I think you need to read about the atrocities committed in Manchuria & China, before you begin to think that the Japanese would have been a benefit to the Korean peninsula.

It is an especially strange comment to make, when you consider that South Korea is one of the most prosperous nations in the Pacific Rim. They have been self-governing, albeit with a heavy dose of American influence, since 1948. The prosperity of South Korea, even in the shadow of the communists that constantly pose a threat... it just proves that Manchuria doesn't need Japanese Imperialism to prosper. All they need is freedom, capitalism and protection from invasion/attack. The same is true for Taiwan. Taiwan is proof that the Chinese will be massively prosperous once they are free from the oppression of communism.

ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

historian said:

---

That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

---

On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

---

Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

---

Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

---

Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

---

Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

---

Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

---

So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

---

Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

---

Again, we see the implicit presumption that America has a moral obligation to stand aside and let other countries do whatever they hell they want so long as they do not cross our orders, and that such will ensure a long-lasting peace.

How can any rational individual believe that the pathway to peace and prosperity for the American people was to let Japan build a "greater east asia co-propsperity sphere" all the way up to our shores?

---

Japan never had any desire to even go to Australia, much less to our shores.

By to same token, why the the US feel entitled to make the Philippines our colony ? We even implemented concentration camps where thousands of civilians died. None of our actions in that region bear close inspection.

You insist on a double standard, in regards to Japan.
No slam, as with with your CIA indoctrination it is perfectly understandable.

---

The US fought a war against Spain. You can argue the merits of that war if you want... but you are making sound as if America sailed across the Pacific and invaded the Philippines. No, Spain invaded the Philippines and Guam and Puerto Rico and Cuba and many other places. America won the war with Spain, and we took all of those places as the spoils of war. We have since given independence to Cuba and the Philippines probably a massive mistake as neither of them has flourished since. Compare the current state of Cuba to Puerto Rico, for example.

If Japan never had any desire to go to Australia... then why did Japan invade Australia? They literally attacked and even occupied parts of Australia. You do know that New Guinea was part of Australia in the 1940s, right?

---

LOL

New Guinea was and remains a **** hole. Japan only wanted a toe hold on the coast for an air field from which to attack
Australian supply lines.

Might as well mention how Japan 'occupied' the US by attacking Attu and Kiska island far out in the Aleutians.

Spoils of war …..seriously ?

What about the freedom that was promised to the people of the Philippines and Cuba during the Spanish American War ?

Do you have any idea how many thousands of Philippine civilians died in our concentration camps ? Or because they were US concentration camps were those poor people any
less dead ?

---

I know quite a bit about the Philippines. Some of my family spent time in the military there, and I have read the letters they wrote home.
One of the letters was really amazing. He was begging his brother to send him his old Colt revolver ASAP, because the gun given him by the US military was not effective. The local tribesmen (as he described them) would attack them, while hopped up on some kind of drugs. He described shooting one 6 times with his small service revolver, but the "indian" never hit the ground. Instead he was able to slash 2 service men with his machette, before another soldier killed him with a shotgun. In fact, it was stories like this one from my great-great uncle, which lead the US Military to adopt the 1911 45ACP to replace the 38 revolver.
In his letters he described how the civilized Philpinos hated the wild muslim "indians" who would attack from the jungles. They were there to protect the civilized folks from the wild & rabid tribal types. And yes, many of them were captured and kept in prison camps.
What you neglect to understand is that there had been tribal conflicts in the Philippines for centuries. It only got worse when the Spanish created cities and colonies in the islands. Some of the locals embraced civilization while others fought it. Many of the locals were very happy to have the US military round up the wild ones.

I'm not here to say that it was done correctly or to argue in favor of anything... just pointing out that you are painting a very incomplete picture of the actual facts.

And yes... the Spoils of War concept has existed throughout history and continues to today. Do you not recognize that Crimea was annexed by Russian during the Obama years, as a spoil of war? America is the only nation in human existence which has overthrown a government, only to give the nation back to the people. We did that in Cuba, Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, Japan, Germany and many other examples.
No other nation has done this, outside of situations when they were acting as allies of the United States.

---

It is well known the Colt 45 was issued to kill Philippine civilians who were high on drugs . The term was running amok.

Doesn't change the point(s) that the US had zero business lying to the Philippine people who were promised independence in exchange for helping the US drive the Spanish army out of Manila.

Instead we shouldered the White Man's Burden…..kept the Philippines…..and killed tens of thousands of Philippine civilians in the process.

Much like the British did in India, much like the Dutch did in Indonesia.

Yet when Japan attempted to follow suit in Korea and Manchuria; Roosevelt got all in a tizzy. Threw down an oil embargo knowing full well the Japanese had little option but to fight.

And hundreds of thousands of Americans; along with millions of Asians died defending US hypocrisy.

And all these years later we continue to fight and die ; for nothing.

ShooterTX said:

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Realitybites said:

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historian said:

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"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

---

It also does not exclusively apply to national Israel.

The promise to national Israel is found in Exodus 19:5-6.

"Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

That is most certainly conditional.

---

I'm curious... do you think the modern nation of Israel is not being blessed by God?

How else can you explain the prosperity in spite of it all? Before the Jews began to repopulate the land... it was just a worthless desert in the eyes of the world. Outside of the religious and historical value of Jerusalem... there was no real interest in the region.

Little to no crops were possible there. It was a land mostly inhabited by nomadic Bedouins, rocks and sand.

Now it is an industrial, commercial, medical and agricultural powerhouse. They produce crops, flowers, vineyards, orchards and other agricultural products on a massive, per acre, scale.
Medical and technological breakthroughs that rival America and the entirety of Europe, come from this one tiny nation.

How can you explain this prosperity & achievement that eclipses the entirety of the Arab world, by this microscopically small Jewish nation?

To my eye it appears that Israel is indeed "a peculiar treasure", to use your Exodus reference. No doubt that they are still being blessed by God.

---

1) Christian Zionists/Useful Idiots.

2) Money.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Spanish-American War, 1898
Yes, the US did take those territories after the war and we did give Cuba their independence as promised in the Teller amendment although we did keep Gitmo.

---

You know just how horribly one sided the Teller amendent was right ?

It allowed the US to dominate Cuba politically and economically for decades.

---

That was the Platt amendment after the war. The Teller amendment was real.

The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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.@VP Harris on Death of Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar: "Justice has been served and the United States, Israel, and the entire world are better off as a result...To any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people...know this; we will always bring you to justice." pic.twitter.com/fOzs9OWg9x

— CSPAN (@cspan) October 17, 2024

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LOL, she's trying so hard!

She's not the president. She's the VP who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

She told Israel to chill and relax, to stand down, and not escalate.

Again, She is not the president. Never has a VP made this type of announcement.

The US did jack squat, she did nothing, or really less than nothing, and here she is taking credit on behalf of the US and Israel.

This is a political blunder of large proportions.

Did I mention that she isn't the President? It wasn't her announcement to make.

Embarrassing elementary school logic from her and her campaign.

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we'll if she's not the president, who is.

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Good question. Nobody knows although there are some theories as to who is pulling the strings.

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Netanyahu.

I had never seen congress so obsequious and united than when Israel's God Emperor spoke. I think the number of standing ovations broke records.

I'm waiting for them to tear down the Lincoln memorial and replace it with a statue of Netanyahu.

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That's the kind of absurd comment that destroys any credibility you might have had.

historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Spanish-American War, 1898
Yes, the US did take those territories after the war and we did give Cuba their independence as promised in the Teller amendment although we did keep Gitmo.

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You know just how horribly one sided the Teller amendent was right ?

It allowed the US to dominate Cuba politically and economically for decades.

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That was the Platt amendment after the war. The Teller amendment was real.

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Correct

My apologies.

ShooterTX said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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historian said:

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That's a silly myth. There is no evidence that FDR or anyone else in the US government wanted an attack on Pearl Harbor.

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On the contrary. Our strategy was to maneuver them into firing the first shot, and that's exactly what we did.

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Absolutely correct

Roosevelt cut off all US oil exports to Japan thereby forcing the Japanese to get their oil from the Dutch East
Indies.

Knowing full well such an invasion would result in a declaration of war from the Dutch and Great Britain.

Realizing the British and Dutch militaries were mired in Europe against Germany, Japanese military planners correctly determined that only the US Pacific Fleet could stop them.

So the Japanese determined upon the risky attack on Pearl Harbor. A horrible blunder as the US carriers were not in port and the Japanese pilots failed to attack the huge oil tanks nearby on shore. If those oil tanks had been destroyed the US fleet would have been forced to withdraw to the West Coast.

In the case of Germany, Roosevelt had authorized the US Navy to ATTACK German submarines months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was providing a huge amount of supplies to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving the British 50 American destroyers. Vital in Britains war against German submarines.

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Once again, this is cherry picking information in hindsight to fit a theory.

The chain of events is accurate, implying motivation or more that it was a strategy to get the US into the war in the Pacific is pure speculation. Pearl Harbor was a awful big price to pay and one FDR had no control over the outcome. As you say, the Japanese pilots go one mile inland and destroy the oil tanks game over.

Japan has already fired such a shot before Pearl Harbor joining with Germany and Italy in 1939. They invaded IndoChina in 40. If FDR wanted to enter a war, Japan gave him several opportunities without sacrificing Pearl Harbor! No one thought Hawaii was the target, they thought Philippines, which happened at same time. I disagree FDR let Pearl Harbor happen to enter the war. That was a surprise. As for Germany, they invaded all of Europe before we did a thing! Churchill was begging FDR to help. You guys are rewriting history to fit your pre-conceived biases. We are not that smart, no one is

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Never said or implied that Roosevelt KNEW in advance of Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor.

He didn't.

All US intelligence officers believed the Japanese would begin the war with an attack on the US military installations in the Philippines. No one from Roosevelt, down to Admiral Kimmel or General Short believed the Japanese had the capability to reach and attack Pearl Harbor. The Philippines were attacked as well however ; approximately 24 hours after Pearl Harbor.

However there can be little doubt that Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking the US first in order to provoke a totally unwilling American public to enter the war.

He simply thought the war would begin in the Philippines.

Roosevelt's provocation against nazi Germany was even more blatant. By the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor ; Hitler had come to the conclusion that the United States Navy had already been at war against them for several months and might as well declare war and get everything out in the open.

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Of course, Germany would have preferred the US to stay neutral or take the Axis side, but by the time the US Navy got involved or the lend-lease started Germany had invaded pretty much all of Europe and the Japanese had joined them. Roosevelt did not need any manipulated scenarios in 1941 pre-Pearl Harbor. He ended Nuetrality in Jan 1941 with Lend-Lease. The US Navy attacked Germany in April 1941 and the Germans attacked the US in September. There was no need to orchestrate.

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Silly rebuttal.

Whether or not you believe there was a ' need ' Roosevelt 's action of cutting all US oil exports to Japan absolutely forced them to invade the Dutch East Indies in order to replace that oil.

As Japan did not produce any oil on their home islands . And without oil the entire Japanese military would have been unable to function in its war in China.

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So we were obligated to sell Japan the means to continue its war on Manchuria?
So to prevent war, we have to facilitate it?

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Roosevelt simply decided China was more important than American lives.

So after hundreds of thousands of US dead.........
China become communist.

So how can any rational individual believe Roosevelt made the right choice ?

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Sorry, but that's a silly statement. It was about doing the right thing and, more importantly, stopping Japanese expansion. The more they grew, the more they would threaten American possessions: the Philippines, Guam, Wake Island, etc.
Also, in the 1930s & 1940-41 no one knew that China would become communist in 1949. That was the result of a 20+ year civil war put on hold by the Japanese and only resumed after their defeat.

There are other issues to complicate these things but they don't alter the basic realities. The pony is that the US is not to blame in the least.

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Yeah

The US took the Philippines as part of the White Man's Burden, yet Japan couldn't do the same in Manchuria.

Strange rational.

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Unpopular opinion but the Philippines would be better off under American rule

And Manchuria better off under the Japanese today

De-colonization has not exactly been a massive success

And Americans and Japanese are very good a creating jobs, business opportunities, and good governance

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No way!

The Japanese committed horrific atrocities in Manchuria and China. They would NOT be better off under Japanese rule.
The Japanese were horribly racist towards both Chinese and Korean people.

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Not under the rule of the war mongering Imperial Japanese

I mean the hard working, efficient, industrious Japanese of today.

Lee Kaun Yew talked about their character

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it just proves that Manchuria doesn't need Japanese Imperialism to prosper. All they need is freedom, capitalism and protection from invasion/attack. The same is true for Taiwan. Taiwan is proof that the Chinese will be massively prosperous once they are free from the oppression of communism.

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No,

But they would do better under the governance of Japan (modern Japan) than they would under the Communists in Beijing

That was the point

The_barBEARian said:

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historian said:

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"I will bless those who bless Jesus, And I will curse him who curses Jesus; And in Jesus all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

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Christ is King.

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This might be the only post of yours I can agree with.

But all of your other posts violate Christ's second greatest commandment. Your hatred of Israel and the Jewish people reeks.

"And he said to them, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matthew 22:37-39

ShooterTX said:

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Realitybites said:

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historian said:

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"I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:3

This promise from God does not have an expiration date.

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It also does not exclusively apply to national Israel.

The promise to national Israel is found in Exodus 19:5-6.

"Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

That is most certainly conditional.

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I'm curious... do you think the modern nation of Israel is not being blessed by God?

How else can you explain the prosperity in spite of it all?

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Possibly that the the leading ethnic group of Israel is a pretty high IQ and high business success group?

[Studies have generally found Ashkenazi Jews to have an average intelligence quotient (IQ) in the range of 107 to 115, and Ashkenazi Jews as a group have had successes in intellectual fields far out of proportion to their numbers. A 2005 scientific paper, "Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence", proposed that Jews as a group inherit significantly higher verbal and mathematical intelligence and somewhat lower spatial intelligence than other ethnic groups, on the basis of inherited diseases and the peculiar economic situation of Ashkenazi Jews in the Middle Ages. ]

They just do better a nation building/economic success than other jewish groups ( Sephardic, Mizrahi, or Beta Israel or Berber jews) and better than Arabs

[Ashkenazi Jews make up about 45% of Israel's Jewish population]

Han in Malaysia and Singapore show this same trait

Highly productive groups

KaiBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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KaiBear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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KaiBear said:

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Good grief

Again, Roosevelt did not 'sacrifice' Pearl Harbor. He miscalculated believing the Japanese didn't have the ability to cross the Pacific undetected with a carrier force large enough to inflict significant damage.

However he knew without US oil Japan either had to bow to US demands to end their war in China or their military operations would grind to a halt.

The American public did NOT want still another war in Europe.
So Roosevelt manipulated one in the Pacific.

But he believed the initial attack would be in the Philippines.

Pearl Harbor was a total shock to him.

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Do you have a source for your Roosevelt miscalculation, & beliefs, and manipulations?

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Yes

Years of reading various books on the subject.

You can begin with: The Rising Sun in the Pacific

by Samuel Eliot Morrison

He wrote the definitive volumes of the US Navy during WW2.

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There are 15 volumes, I'm sure you read all of them. In which volume does Morrison write of Roosevelt's manipulation, miscalculation and beliefs?

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I do own the entire set. Gave them as a gift to my Father. Upon his death Dad gave them back to me.

FYI in Volume 6 Breaking the Bismarck Barrier...there is a gruesome picture of my Dad's destroyer....the USS Selfridge after it had been hit by a Japanese 'long lance' torpedo. Over 48 of My Dad's shipmates were slaughterd. Google it....amazing picture.

The Rising Sun in the Pacific is a great place to begin. There are many others accounts worth reading as well.

BTW Roosevelt wasn't evil.....he simply errored. But hundreds of thousands of American died as a result. And in the end the Sovier Union dominated eastern Europe instead of Germany; and China became dominated by Mao instead of by Japan.

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Ian Toll has an excellent trilogy of the naval war in the Pacific. From what I've read, he used Morrison and more recent revelations.

I've found nothing about Roosevelt "manipulating" Japan into a Pearl Harbor attack. I don't believe (nor have you said" he sacrificed Pearl.

Craig Symonds seems to be at the top of his game as far as naval history is concerned

Realitybites said:

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Is China blessed by God? It is the world's largest economy today. Saudi Arabia and the UAE? There are a lot of ways to build wealth. Prosperity is not prima facie evidence of divine blessing.

You say, "Before the Jews began to repopulate the land... it was just a worthless desert in the eyes of the world."

How does this square with the Bible's description of it from Numbers 13 before the Jews ever got there?

"Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: "We went to the land where you sent us. It truly [g]flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."

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Comparing China to Israel is absurd. China has a large well educated population, at least in the cities, and an abundance of natural resources. Saudi Arabia & the UAE have controlled a large portion of the world's oil supplies for decades. The source of their prosperity is obvious. Israel has none of that.

no problem

For the 4th time.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

Realitybites said:

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Is China blessed by God? It is the world's largest economy today. Saudi Arabia and the UAE? There are a lot of ways to build wealth. Prosperity is not prima facie evidence of divine blessing.

You say, "Before the Jews began to repopulate the land... it was just a worthless desert in the eyes of the world."

How does this square with the Bible's description of it from Numbers 13 before the Jews ever got there?

"Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: "We went to the land where you sent us. It truly [g]flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."

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LOL

I am talking about the land in the late 1880s to the 1940s.

Land across the globe has undergone many changes over the centuries. For example, during the Roman empire, North Africa was described as the "bread basket of Rome" because of the plentiful wheat fields. Can you imagine endless wheat fields in modern day Tunisia, Libya, Africa, Morocco, and Egypt? Obviously, something happened after the fall of Rome.

Yes, the lands of ancient Israel were described as the land of "milk & honey". But if you look at records from the turn of the century, you will see that the majority of the land of Israel was described as worthless desert. This is partly why the population of the region of Palestine was extremely sparse compared to the rest of the region.

Things began to change when the Jews began to buy pieces of worthless land in the 1890s. They moved in and began to work the lands. They dug new wells and in many cases turned "worthless deserts" into prosperous farmlands.

If you go far back enough, you will discover that the land we now know as Iraq and Iran was once a fertile land of amazing crops, vineyards, orchards and livestock. No one would describe it that way today.

Land changes over time... and it never has anything to do with someone driving a F-350 instead of a Prius.

historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Is China blessed by God? It is the world's largest economy today. Saudi Arabia and the UAE? There are a lot of ways to build wealth. Prosperity is not prima facie evidence of divine blessing.

You say, "Before the Jews began to repopulate the land... it was just a worthless desert in the eyes of the world."

How does this square with the Bible's description of it from Numbers 13 before the Jews ever got there?

"Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: "We went to the land where you sent us. It truly [g]flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."

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Comparing China to Israel is absurd. China has a large well educated population, at least in the cities, and an abundance of natural resources. Saudi Arabia & the UAE have controlled a large portion of the world's oil supplies for decades. The source of their prosperity is obvious. Israel has none of that.

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Natural resources are less important than natural intelligence (Japan is very successful and has basically no resources at all...same with the Dutch in the Netherlands who have few resources)

Both the Han and the Ashkenazi have that...(along with some other groups)

Its not surprising that wherever they go and settle they are pretty successful

Probably has less to do with God and more to do with genes, work ethic, history of complex civilization/governance

You could put either group into the desert Australia outback and they would build pretty decently successful States.... while you could give some groups massively resource rich countries and still have poverty/disfunction

We all know what would happen if you gave Han or Ashkenazi the land of Afghanistan....and we all know what would happen if you gave Afghans the oil rich land of Texas

KaiBear said:

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For the 4th time. Which is why I posted I don't believe (nor have you said" he sacrificed Pearl.

Roosevelt did not sacrifice the men or ships at Pearl Harbor. I don't believe (nor have you said" he sacrificed Pearl.

Along with his military advisors ; Roosevelt expected an attack at the Philippines and / or Guam.

No one thought Japan had the capacity to go such a distance undetected and attack Hawaii.

At Dawn We Slept is still another reference.

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