KaiBear said:

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historian said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

That's silly isolationist thinking & gets it all wrong. Again, it's blaming the victim. The U.S. does not deserve any blame for Pearl Harbor. Also, at the time no one knew how things were going to play out. I don't think the American death toll was 500k but our death toll also includes Europe & North Africa. No one knew the Commies would win in China. And that is completely unrelated to Jason's attack in December 1941.

Lastly, Americans died for something: to defeat Hitler & the Japanese empire. Both were positive results for America & the world.

---

Hitler's domination of Europe was replaced by Stalin's domination of Europe.

Japan's domination of Asia was replaced by communist China's domination of Asia.

Our people died for nothing.

And we still never learn.

Biden is escalating the war between Ukraine and Russia......now Russia is sending anti ship missils to Iranian proxys .

Gee who would have thought Putin would dare respond like that ?

---

So if we stayed out of WW2, world dominance would have gone away? We would all have peace and get along? The mother of all counterintuitive, who knew...

Would there still be fights over Aranda? We would all agree on Final Four seedings. Where would it end?

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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historian said:

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Agree with everything except isolationism. The U.S. hasn't been isolationist for 90 years and that is impossible now. It is also a very foolish attitude, like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

Also, aircraft carriers can only project power do much in an era of hypersonic missiles & dangerous countries with nukes.

---

Isolationism got us into two world wars in less than 20 years.

---

Bull****

Woodrow Wilson stumbled into WW1 and FDR literally pushed the American people ( against their will ) into WW2.

Like it or not fella.....the American people are fed up with CIA led police actions.

Trump isn't going to play along.

---

You and historian have some serious historical revisionism going on.

---

Bull**** is exactly the word. It wasn't isolationism that got us into two world wars.

---

You're not only worse than Kai, you spread it all across a broader front.

Why don't you just say it - that you think we deserve to be ruled by others because we are the source of all evil in the world.

---

Russia has not the desire or the ability to rule us. Their GDP is a fraction of ours. If we could get them to join forces with China, India, and the rest of the global majority, we might be at a real disadvantage. And we've just about managed to accomplish that, thanks to your crusades.

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

historian said:

---

Agree with everything except isolationism. The U.S. hasn't been isolationist for 90 years and that is impossible now. It is also a very foolish attitude, like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

Also, aircraft carriers can only project power do much in an era of hypersonic missiles & dangerous countries with nukes.

---

Isolationism got us into two world wars in less than 20 years.

---

Bull****

Woodrow Wilson stumbled into WW1 and FDR literally pushed the American people ( against their will ) into WW2.

Like it or not fella.....the American people are fed up with CIA led police actions.

Trump isn't going to play along.

---

You and historian have some serious historical revisionism going on.

---

Bull**** is exactly the word. It wasn't isolationism that got us into two world wars.

---

You're not only worse than Kai, you spread it all across a broader front.

Why don't you just say it - that you think we deserve to be ruled by others because we are the source of all evil in the world.

---

Russia has not the desire or the ability to rule us.
Never said they did. Pointing out the obvious: from this very day all the way back to the Kievan Rus, Russia has attempted to rule everything it touches. We, on the other hand, could have ruled the planet twice in the last century, and didn't add a square inch to our polity.

Their GDP is a fraction of ours.
But, if not significantly deterred, they can force you to spend tens of trillions of dollars along with the lives of our sons & daughters to remind them (again) that their reach exceeds their grasp.

If we could get them to join forces with China, India, and the rest of the global majority, we might be at a real disadvantage. And we've just about managed to accomplish that, thanks to your crusades.
Russia, China, and India are continental rivals. We have no need to dominate their realms or approaches; we need to prevent any of the three from dominating the other. Ergo the rise of our growing alliance with fortress India, an unsinkable aircraft carrier parked astride Chinese lines of oil supply.

---

I know you find great comfort in reflexively blaming the USA for every conflict in the world. Sadly, we are not responsible for any of the various Russian invasions of its neighbors during our 250yrs on the world stage, and most certainly not its most recent example - Ukraine. Russia is responsible for that, invading a neutral country with the exact same foreign policy agenda as those noted international villains Finland and Sweden. Russia didn't invade them because they became EU members and Nato partners. So why the hullabaloo over Ukraine? Answer: Russia wants Ukraine back and made up wild-assed narratives to justify it (just like you're doing).

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.
They can if poorly assembled into a incoherent argument, which you are prone to make on foreign policy.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.
See my comment above.
Hitler was replaced with a genuine democracy, and Germany became a worthwhile US ally.
Tojo was replaced with a genuine democracy, and Japan became a stalwart US ally.
It took us quite a bit longer to end the reigns of Communist China and the USSR, but both were replaced with regimes which for a few decades were net-positive forces in world affairs, to specifically include positive, productive relationships with the USA. (without a hot war, btw....)

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.
We didn't start it. We were invaded by Japan. Germany declared war on us due to its alliance with Japan. We did absolutely nothing to justify either policy decision. In fact, our reluctance to engage allowed the problem to get a LOT bigger and forced us to deal with it.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.
LOL. WW3 started in 2014 and is steadily building. Instead of ending it by arming up Ukraine for victory, Biden has dragged out the process beyond the will of the American people to continue.

---

News flash: the whole world is "covered" by one hegemon or the other. Always has been; always will be. The USA is not responsible when hegemons badly misplay the cards they are dealt.

Seriously. Stop assuming the conclusion = framing every single dynamic of current world affairs as proof of either US incompetence or mischief. Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany had megalomaniacal ambitions of empire, invading over 40 modern countries (Japan 12, Germany 31) and attacking seriously several more. The USA is not remotely responsible for German and Japanese decisions to do all that.

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.
So you propose we should have ceded sovereignty to Nazi Germany regarding what & with whom we could trade?

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.
Again, you propose that we let a manifestly aggressive foreign power dictate when/where/how our commerce may be traded? That in order not to provoke Nazi Germany, we should have let our commerce sail unguarded?

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.
Yes, and it was an unprovoked act of war by Germany against the USA.

All without a declaration of war.
Incorrect. Germany declared war on us without provocation.

Neutrality my ass.
There's ass going on alright, but neutrality gots nothing to do with it.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.
Just plain goofy. Hitler was replaced by Conrad Adenauer, one of the most respected leaders in German history who safely guided his country thru a long, arduous rebuilding a free, democratic society in the face of maximum pressure from Stalin.

---

Seriously, Kai. Seek help.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

All lies. Really?

We didn't do escorts until 41. US was neutral, especially in Europe, until well after the die was cast. We waited until Britain was about to be invaded. As for the Pacific, without Pearl Harbor we wouldn't have left Hawaii or the Philippines. Hell, we were trying to figure out what to do with the Philippines!

No, WW2 would have gone better if we were involved from the beginning, may never have escalated like it did. Isolationist caused the scale of tragedy. Hell, if we would have pushed more after WW1 and not just went home that Treaty could have been modified. Difference between a Teddy and Wilson...

Did Trump pull us out of any Nations under his watch? I can't think of one. He got NATO to pay more, which I loved. But he didn't bring us home. Don't know why anyone would think he will this time.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

I responded regarding WW2. The others are different subjects.

Hitler's stated goal was virtually all of Europe, and he was well on his way.

Marshall didn't hand China to anyone. China was in perpetual civil war, and unfortunately, the commies one. Are suggesting we should have entered that civil war directly?

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

I responded regarding WW2. The others are different subjects.

Hitler's stated goal was virtually all of Europe, and he was well on his way.

Marshall didn't hand China to anyone. China was in perpetual civil war, and unfortunately, the commies one. Are suggesting we should have entered that civil war directly?

---

Read exactly what Marshall did.

Horrible blunder by an otherwise great general.

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

I responded regarding WW2. The others are different subjects.

Hitler's stated goal was virtually all of Europe, and he was well on his way.

Marshall didn't hand China to anyone. China was in perpetual civil war, and unfortunately, the commies one. Are suggesting we should have entered that civil war directly?

---

Read exactly what Marshall did.

Horrible blunder by an otherwise great general.

---

I studied China in grad school. Are you talking about his failed talks with the Commies and Nationalists? If so, I'm not sure what he could have done. He basically sacrifices his own health, if not his life. for those talks.

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

I responded regarding WW2. The others are different subjects.

Hitler's stated goal was virtually all of Europe, and he was well on his way.

Marshall didn't hand China to anyone. China was in perpetual civil war, and unfortunately, the commies one. Are suggesting we should have entered that civil war directly?

---

Read exactly what Marshall did.

Horrible blunder by an otherwise great general.

---

I studied China in grad school. Are you talking about his failed talks with the Commies and Nationalists? If so, I'm not sure what he could have done. He basically sacrifices his own health, if not his life. for those talks.

---

Marshall threatened to cut off aid to the Nationalists if they didn't agree to a truce....just when they had Mao's forces on the brink of defeat. Mao came back to eventually win the war.

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

Funny how you call anyone that differs with your believe of isolationism an "Internet Rambo", but you question the decisions of people that actually dealt with the Communists and saw what they were capable of doing to people. Yes we got into wars and yes people died, but those that were there against the Russians and saw the Chinese Civil War believed it was worth it to stand against them.

You keep making these determinations through the lens of history, questioning those that were actually there making the decisions.

I just ordered The China Mission: George Marshall's Unfinished War, 19451947, I am very curious about it. You have piqued my interest, very interesting subject of what is possible with China vs what we want to be possible. Thanks.

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

Funny how you call anyone that differs with your believe of isolationism an "Internet Rambo", but you question the decisions of people that actually dealt with the Communists and saw what they were capable of doing to people. Yes we got into wars and yes people died, but those that were there against the Russians and saw the Chinese Civil War believed it was worth it to stand against them.

You keep making these determinations through the lens of history, questioning those that were actually there making the decisions.

I just ordered The China Mission: George Marshall's Unfinished War, 19451947, I am very curious about it. You have piqued my interest, very interesting subject of what is possible with China vs what we want to be possible. Thanks.

---

Honestly that looks like a good read. I might order that book myself.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

Funny how you call anyone that differs with your believe of isolationism an "Internet Rambo", but you question the decisions of people that actually dealt with the Communists and saw what they were capable of doing to people. Yes we got into wars and yes people died, but those that were there against the Russians and saw the Chinese Civil War believed it was worth it to stand against them.

You keep making these determinations through the lens of history, questioning those that were actually there making the decisions.

I just ordered The China Mission: George Marshall's Unfinished War, 19451947, I am very curious about it. You have piqued my interest, very interesting subject of what is possible with China vs what we want to be possible. Thanks.

---

Honestly that looks like a good read. I might order that book myself.

---

Very curious. Marshall was a throwback, as he did have integrity and put the US interests first. Looking forward to it.

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

Funny how you call anyone that differs with your believe of isolationism an "Internet Rambo", but you question the decisions of people that actually dealt with the Communists and saw what they were capable of doing to people. Yes we got into wars and yes people died, but those that were there against the Russians and saw the Chinese Civil War believed it was worth it to stand against them.

You keep making these determinations through the lens of history, questioning those that were actually there making the decisions.

I just ordered The China Mission: George Marshall's Unfinished War, 19451947, I am very curious about it. You have piqued my interest, very interesting subject of what is possible with China vs what we want to be possible. Thanks.

---

Honestly that looks like a good read. I might order that book myself.

---

Very curious. Marshall was a throwback, as he did have integrity and put the US interests first. Looking forward to it.

---

Agreed

BREAKING:

Netanyahu has announced a ceasefire deal with Hezbollah.

🇮🇱🇱🇧 pic.twitter.com/pmpQzLdWKP

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) November 26, 2024

boognish_bear said:

---

BREAKING:

Netanyahu has announced a ceasefire deal with Hezbollah.

🇮🇱🇱🇧 pic.twitter.com/pmpQzLdWKP

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) November 26, 2024

---

Timing is everything.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

historian said:

---

Agree with everything except isolationism. The U.S. hasn't been isolationist for 90 years and that is impossible now. It is also a very foolish attitude, like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

Also, aircraft carriers can only project power do much in an era of hypersonic missiles & dangerous countries with nukes.

---

Isolationism got us into two world wars in less than 20 years.

---

Bull****

Woodrow Wilson stumbled into WW1 and FDR literally pushed the American people ( against their will ) into WW2.

Like it or not fella.....the American people are fed up with CIA led police actions.

Trump isn't going to play along.

---

You and historian have some serious historical revisionism going on.

---

Bull**** is exactly the word. It wasn't isolationism that got us into two world wars.

---

You're not only worse than Kai, you spread it all across a broader front.

Why don't you just say it - that you think we deserve to be ruled by others because we are the source of all evil in the world.

---

Russia has not the desire or the ability to rule us.
Never said they did. Pointing out the obvious: from this very day all the way back to the Kievan Rus, Russia has attempted to rule everything it touches. We, on the other hand, could have ruled the planet twice in the last century, and didn't add a square inch to our polity.

Their GDP is a fraction of ours.
But, if not significantly deterred, they can force you to spend tens of trillions of dollars along with the lives of our sons & daughters to remind them (again) that their reach exceeds their grasp.

If we could get them to join forces with China, India, and the rest of the global majority, we might be at a real disadvantage. And we've just about managed to accomplish that, thanks to your crusades.
Russia, China, and India are continental rivals. We have no need to dominate their realms or approaches; we need to prevent any of the three from dominating the other. Ergo the rise of our growing alliance with fortress India, an unsinkable aircraft carrier parked astride Chinese lines of oil supply.

---

I know you find great comfort in reflexively blaming the USA for every conflict in the world. Sadly, we are not responsible for any of the various Russian invasions of its neighbors during our 250yrs on the world stage, and most certainly not its most recent example - Ukraine. Russia is responsible for that, invading a neutral country with the exact same foreign policy agenda as those noted international villains Finland and Sweden. Russia didn't invade them because they became EU members and Nato partners. So why the hullabaloo over Ukraine? Answer: Russia wants Ukraine back and made up wild-assed narratives to justify it (just like you're doing).

---

The same "wild" narratives that some of our best foreign policy minds have expounded for the last 30 years.

But you're not the one rewriting history...no, not at all.

President Biden: "I have some good news to report from the Middle East. I just spoke with the prime ministers of Israel and Lebanon. I am pleased to announce that their governments have accepted the U.S. proposal to end the devastating conflict between Israel and Hezbollah." pic.twitter.com/85KrARilHX

— CSPAN (@cspan) November 26, 2024

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

I responded regarding WW2. The others are different subjects.

Hitler's stated goal was virtually all of Europe, and he was well on his way.

Marshall didn't hand China to anyone. China was in perpetual civil war, and unfortunately, the commies one. Are suggesting we should have entered that civil war directly?

---

Hitler essentially achieved it.

Kai has fatal errors on every level of his argument.

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

sombear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

---

We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

---

LOL

Roosevelt's 'Neutrality Act' was a complete lie. A political necessity to calm the fears of an American people determined NOT to be coerced into another European war as they had in WW1.

However Roosevelt openly abused the intent of the Neutrality Act by supplying vast amounts of weapons and munitions to Great Britain. Even to the point of giving FIFTY US destroyers to the British Royal Nsvy.

Quietly Roosevelt ordered the US Navy to escort British merchant ships from American harbors and protect them from German submarines. Even authorized US warships to attack German submarines.

In the process 2 US destroyers were torpedoed, one was sunk and hundreds of American sailors were drowned.

All without a declaration of war.

Neutrality my ass.

And when the war finally ended in Europe……Hitler had merely been replaced by Stalin. A sociopath at least as murderous as any nazi.

---

Your new primary argument of the day - that Stalin just replaced Hitler - is comical. Newsflash: Stalin never controlled western euro. The great "Soviet Empire" consisted of East Germany, which was always going to fail, and a handful of eastern blocs - woo hoo!!!

Hitler wanted and was taking all of it, and oh by the way, murdering millions of innocents of other countries along the way.

And Stalin was going to murder his own people with or without Hitler. It's the communist way . . . .

---

And Hitler never controlled all of Europe either.

You internet Rambos rarely connect the dots of the post WW2 realities.

As it darkens your fantasy of 'our great victory '.

Such fantasies simply don't mesh with results.

The United States showed have never entered WW1....we were conned into it by the British.

WW2 is a close call. But George Marshall basically handed China over to Mao.

Korean War......zero reason to sacrifice almost 40,000 US servicemen.

Vietnam ....zero reason to sacrifice 55,000 US servicemen.

Iraq....ok....yes that WAS justied.

---

I responded regarding WW2. The others are different subjects.

Hitler's stated goal was virtually all of Europe, and he was well on his way.

Marshall didn't hand China to anyone. China was in perpetual civil war, and unfortunately, the commies one. Are suggesting we should have entered that civil war directly?

---

Hitler essentially achieved it.

Kai has fatal errors on every level of his argument.

---

Marshall actually had both sides agreeing to a Constitution until the CCCP took control. He didn't hand anything over, not successful. But, definitely not handing over.

Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

whiterock said:

---

Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

---

Yeah, I suspect that is more for personal reasons... We are discussing policy, hard to separate personal impact from the discussion.

I have a 24-year-old son that would get caught up in a mess too, if the balloon really went up. He works in the Maritime industry, so he would be of interest in any full draft with his logistics and operations skills. I know your daughter serves, but she has been for a while.

So, I get the reluctance. My wife hated the 7 months I was deployed in the Gulf War. War sucks, period. I don't disagree with him, even though I know the reality is that you can't just stand down.

JUST IN: 🇺🇸🇮🇱 US President Joe Biden approves $680,000,000 arms sale to Israel. pic.twitter.com/HHwy9HB0NV

— BRICS News (@BRICSinfo) November 27, 2024

whiterock said:

---

Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

---

Not at all.

We just disagree with your side about who the tyrants and imperialists are.

A NATO that has been edging ever eastward at the behest of the MIC in violation of the promises we made to the Russians is much more aptly described as imperialists than a Russia that has moved to secure some neighboring territories populated by Russians.

Likewise EU member states who are banning political parties, prohibiting the freedom of religion, and arresting people for thought crime are the tyrants. In fact since Covid there hasn't been much daylight between the behavior of those article 5 "allies" of ours and the CCP.

I'm perfectly willing to go to war when it is necessary. JFK: let's leave Castro in place. Dulles: Let's have a color revolution that overthrows Castro/Bay of Pigs. Me: Cuba is 90 miles from Key West. Annex it, State #51. Militarize and seal the Mexican border.

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

---

Not at all.

We just disagree with your side about who the tyrants and imperialists are.

A NATO that has been edging ever eastward at the behest of the MIC in violation of the promises we made to the Russians is much more aptly described as imperialists than a Russia that has moved to secure some neighboring territories populated by Russians.

Likewise EU member states who are banning political parties, prohibiting the freedom of religion, and arresting people for thought crime are the tyrants. In fact since Covid there hasn't been much daylight between the behavior of those article 5 "allies" of ours and the CCP.

I'm perfectly willing to go to war when it is necessary. JFK: let's leave Castro in place. Dulles: Let's have a color revolution that overthrows Castro/Bay of Pigs. Me: Cuba is 90 miles from Key West. Annex it, State #51. Militarize and seal the Mexican border.

---

I agree, that would have been how you stabilize the Gulf. However, that time past. We could have after Spanish-American War. Now no way.

BREAKING:

France announces it will ignore the ICC’s arrest warrant and won’t apprehend Netanyahu if he visits France

🇫🇷🇮🇱 pic.twitter.com/eNMkcJlkBd

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) November 27, 2024

Realitybites said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

---

Not at all.

We just disagree with your side about who the tyrants and imperialists are.
Oh that is crystal clear. It's always us, according to you.

A NATO that has been edging ever eastward at the behest of the MIC in violation of the promises we made to the Russians is much more aptly described as imperialists than a Russia that has moved to secure some neighboring territories populated by Russians.
So what? Zero chance the Russians ever thought Baker's "promise" meant "never." The context was....the USSR was collapsing and we wanted to assure Russia we were not going to rush in and play Risk all the way to the Russian border. And we didn't. We were very deliberate, over the course of many years taking new members. Yes, we admitted the Baltics. Because they asked. We did not admit Finland or Sweden, who didn't ask until RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE. Neither did we admit Belarus or Ukraine, latter of which DID NOT APPLY FOR NATO MEMBERSHIP UNTIL INVADED BY RUSSIA. Same for anybody in the Caucasus. We didn't push east. East begged us to come in. More to the point WE INVADED NOBODY.

Likewise EU member states who are banning political parties, prohibiting the freedom of religion, and arresting people for thought crime are the tyrants. In fact since Covid there hasn't been much daylight between the behavior of those article 5 "allies" of ours and the CCP.
The idea that Europe is a greater police state that Russia is comical, but even if we admit your silly premise, it's worth nothing we've had a lot of "unsavory" allies over the years and will have plenty more in the future. Sure, it's nice to have an Israel or Japan as an ally....stable developed western-oriented systems with constitutional rule of law, many shared social values, and lots of common interests. Common interests are instructive. Turkey is a good ally to have. So is Singapore. In a pinch, we'll even use a Stalin or a Chang Kai-shek.

I'm perfectly willing to go to war when it is necessary. JFK: let's leave Castro in place. Dulles: Let's have a color revolution that overthrows Castro/Bay of Pigs. Me: Cuba is 90 miles from Key West. Annex it, State #51. Militarize and seal the Mexican border.
Wait. I thought you've been saying we are evil imperialists.

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You are just mad at how big the budget deficit is and want to start cutting in ways that will have negligible reduction in anything other than our national security position.

NEWS FLASH: Trump is planning to reduce the budget primarily with rapid economic growth. You cannot slash the budget 20% and have an economic growth record to run on in the mid-terms. That budget deficit is part of GDP.....

whiterock said:

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Realitybites said:

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whiterock said:

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Kai is trying to argue that since war never eliminates tyranny or imperialism, etc...., there is no point in resisting it anytime, anywhere.

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Not at all.

We just disagree with your side about who the tyrants and imperialists are.
Oh that is crystal clear. It's always us, according to you.

A NATO that has been edging ever eastward at the behest of the MIC in violation of the promises we made to the Russians is much more aptly described as imperialists than a Russia that has moved to secure some neighboring territories populated by Russians.
So what? Zero chance the Russians ever thought Baker's "promise" meant "never." The context was....the USSR was collapsing and we wanted to assure Russia we were not going to rush in and play Risk all the way to the Russian border. And we didn't. We were very deliberate, over the course of many years taking new members. Yes, we admitted the Baltics. Because they asked. We did not admit Finland or Sweden, who didn't ask until RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE. Neither did we admit Belarus or Ukraine, latter of which DID NOT APPLY FOR NATO MEMBERSHIP UNTIL INVADED BY RUSSIA. Same for anybody in the Caucasus. We didn't push east. East begged us to come in. More to the point WE INVADED NOBODY.

Likewise EU member states who are banning political parties, prohibiting the freedom of religion, and arresting people for thought crime are the tyrants. In fact since Covid there hasn't been much daylight between the behavior of those article 5 "allies" of ours and the CCP.
The idea that Europe is a greater police state that Russia is comical, but even if we admit your silly premise, it's worth nothing we've had a lot of "unsavory" allies over the years and will have plenty more in the future. Sure, it's nice to have an Israel or Japan as an ally....stable developed western-oriented systems with constitutional rule of law, many shared social values, and lots of common interests. Common interests are instructive. Turkey is a good ally to have. So is Singapore. In a pinch, we'll even use a Stalin or a Chang Kai-shek.

I'm perfectly willing to go to war when it is necessary. JFK: let's leave Castro in place. Dulles: Let's have a color revolution that overthrows Castro/Bay of Pigs. Me: Cuba is 90 miles from Key West. Annex it, State #51. Militarize and seal the Mexican border.
Wait. I thought you've been saying we are evil imperialists.

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You are just mad at how big the budget deficit is and want to start cutting in ways that will have negligible reduction in anything other than our national security position.

NEWS FLASH: Trump is planning to reduce the budget primarily with rapid economic growth. You cannot slash the budget 20% and have an economic growth record to run on in the mid-terms. That budget deficit is part of GDP.....

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THANK YOU! I have been saying this for years, you do not get out of this through budget cuts it is unsustainable. You have to increase revenues. Where we have a disagreement, I believe the Fed can play a role in new investments in tech to expand the market. You guys seem to want the Fed out. I think it is too much for non-govt. Look at Space X, how much of their money was Fed? 380 billion (might be all of Elon's companies don't remember, the point is it was substantial.

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

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Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

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Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

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Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

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Hindsight is 20-20

FLBear5630 said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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He refused to support a barbaric war machine. The U.S. was under no obligation to help them with that. FDR did what was in America's interest and the decision to attack Pearl Harbor rests completely on Japan's leaders. It's similar to blaming Israel for the terror attacks on October 7 or the U.S. for September 11, 2001. Blaming the victim is almost always an exercise in propaganda & nothing more.

---

Roosevelt basically put the interests of the Chinese against the lives of American servicemen.

The war between Japan and China had absolutely nothing to do with the United States .

Cutting off US oil exports to Japan brought on the attack on Pearl Harbor resulting in WW 2.

And over 500,000 Americans died as a result.

When the war was over….China was not conquered by Japan.

But soon became COMMUNIST.


Americans died for nothing.

---

Good grief your head is full of mush. I mean, really. We are obligated to let an imperial rival power have as much of Asia as it wants and it is of no importance to us? Like we raw materials & export markets are inconsequential to us.....or that Japan & Germany would never consolidate their positions in Europe and Asia then move on to build empire in the Americas? Every war we've ever fought is OUR fault?

You're waaay too smart for such crackpottery.

---

Facts don't lie.

The end results of WW2 simply replaced Hitler and Tojo
with Mao and Stalin.

Not remotely worth the lives of half a million Americans.

Even now Biden seems determined to bring on WW3 despite the unwillingness of Americans to potentially fight and die for a country most couldn't find on a map.

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We did stay out of WW2, see the Neutrality Acts. We waited until Germany invaded and occupied pretty much ALL of Europe before entering the war. The 500k loss of lives AND Russia's move west could have been prevented or at least minimized IF we were engaged from the beginning.

Same in the Pacific, we stayed out until Pearl Harbor. We made economic decisions not to support Japan through oil sales, but hardly entered the war. We stayed out, which cost greatly.

Not being at the table is NEVER a good thing. We can argue levels of support, whose side, and how to deal with it. All valid points. The one NOT valid strategy is to take your ball and go home to let others decide what is going to happen.

Let's see if Trump comes up with a different tact after he gets all the information. Last time, he didn't. We were still in Afghanistan when he left office. We were supplying weapons, granted much lower scale systems, to Ukraine. We were still in Syria. Still in Korea. Still in Iraq. Supported Israel mightily. So, let's see if we really pull out.

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Very unrealistic and unprovable assumptions. No one knows what would have happened had the US entered WWII earlier. I don't think the US death toll was 500k but I don't think anyone knows for sure. I've seen many estimates over the past 40 years & they seem to be creeping upward gradually. Same with total deaths.

American isolationism was real. That was the attitude of most people until Pearl Harbor. That changed 180 degrees when we were attacked. Suddenly the American people were united almost 100%, more than any other war in our history.

Your description of Trump's foreign policy sounds like he was a hawk but he spent much of his time withdrawing the US forces from all those conflicts with significant success. Trump inherited a bad position for the US from Obama. Biden is remembered for the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal but people seem to forget that it began under Trump and was proceeding successfully. Disaster could have been avoided had Biden only maintained Trump's policy (same with the US border, the economy, & everything else).