Waco1947 said:

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sombear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Christian nationalism seeks to establish an exclusivist version of Christianity as the dominant moral and cultural order.[2] Christian nationalism overlaps with but is distinct from theonomy, with it being more populist in character.[3]: xxi In countries with a state church, Christian nationalists seek to preserve the status of a Christian state by holding an antidisestablishmentarian position to perpetuate the Church in national politics Wikipedia
Theonomy (from Greek theos "God" and nomos "law") is a hypothetical Christian form of government in which society is ruled by divine law.[1] Theonomists hold that divine law, particularly the judicial laws of the Old Testament, should be observed by modern societies

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If you can define, without cutting and pasting, exactly what Christian Nationalism is in the United States, then I will answer.

If it is loving and worshipping the God of the Bible, loving my Country, and supporting traditional Judeo Christian values, then, yes, guilty.

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Good question:

Christian Nationalism insists the USA is a Christian nation and the Founding Father meant it to be.
Christian Nationalism insists on putting the 10 commandments on school walls.
Christian Nationalism insists that abortion regardless of health circumstances is wrong. They project their dogma that life begins at conception
Christian Nationalism insists on Christian symbols (crosses, Nativities, etc) government public spaces.
Christian Nationalism post signs - God Guns Trump.
Politics is preached from the pulpit from preachers and congregations are told who to vote for.

I suppose this a good start.

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Half of what you described is every AME church in the country.

Rightly so because it is a deep tradition in the AMC and other black denominations. Do you know it is their tradition?

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Rightly so because it is a deep tradition in the AMC and other black denominations. Do you know it is their tradition?

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Hate whitey?

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LOL

Redbrickbear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Rightly so because it is a deep tradition in the AMC and other black denominations. Do you know it is their tradition?

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Being politically active is absolutely a tradition of black churches.

The most politically active denominations in the U.S. are Black Christian ones and Reformed Jews

Look no further for two groups who mix politics and religion together to an extreme extent.

Like most liberals and leftists I don't think you care about the toxic mixing of politics and religion…you just don't personally want White Christians in the fly over States being the ones doing the mixing.

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Well, black churches have been the center of the community, driving political and social issues for way more than 60 years now.

Many years ago it was more or less a safe haven, by and large and one of the few places these issues could be discussed. So what is really happening is the tradition continues in most Mainline denomination black churches.

Is it legal at this point, maybe not, but it doesn't matter as the practice is pretty much grandfathered in and nobody is going to do anything to stop it.

Redbrickbear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Rightly so because it is a deep tradition in the AMC and other black denominations. Do you know it is their tradition?

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Being politically active is absolutely a tradition of black churches.

The most politically active denominations in the U.S. are Black Christian ones and Reformed Jews

Look no further for two groups who mix politics and religion together to an extreme extent.

Like most liberals and leftists I don't think you care about the toxic mixing of politics and religion…you just don't personally want White Christians in the fly over States being the ones doing the mixing.

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Never did these black churches advocate for Christian Nationalism, but mega evangelical do.
Black churches advocated for justice and candidates who sought it.

Redbrickbear said:

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Forest Bueller_bf said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Rightly so because it is a deep tradition in the AMC and other black denominations. Do you know it is their tradition?

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Being politically active is absolutely a tradition of black churches.

The most politically active denominations in the U.S. are Black Christian ones and Reformed Jews

Look no further for two groups who mix politics and religion together to an extreme extent.

Like most liberals and leftists I don't think you care about the toxic mixing of politics and religion…you just don't personally want White Christians in the fly over States being the ones doing the mixing.

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Well, black churches have been the center of the community, driving political and social issues for way more than 60 years now.

Many years ago it was more or less a safe haven, by and large and one of the few places these issues could be discussed. So what is really happening is the tradition continues in most Mainline denomination black churches.

Is it legal at this point, maybe not, but it doesn't matter as the practice is pretty much grandfathered in and nobody is going to do anything to stop it.

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1. What's the excuse for the highly politized nature of Reformed Judaism then... Vs Conservative Judaism that gets far less involved in Politics?

2. Grandfathered in or not....a tradition or not...the point is that Black Churches are highly political and deeply tied in with Democratic party politics.

Yet we hardly ever see criticism of this fact coming from Academia or the Media....

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Agree with all points, but it isn't ever going to change. Some of the churches basically run voter recruitment drives from church. The Media and Academia are all for it happening because they are for Progressive causes. They will never have issue with the practice.

That said Trump was in the pulpit at First Baptist Dallas, so it's not 100% one sided.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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sombear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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sombear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Christian nationalism seeks to establish an exclusivist version of Christianity as the dominant moral and cultural order.[2] Christian nationalism overlaps with but is distinct from theonomy, with it being more populist in character.[3]: xxi In countries with a state church, Christian nationalists seek to preserve the status of a Christian state by holding an antidisestablishmentarian position to perpetuate the Church in national politics Wikipedia
Theonomy (from Greek theos "God" and nomos "law") is a hypothetical Christian form of government in which society is ruled by divine law.[1] Theonomists hold that divine law, particularly the judicial laws of the Old Testament, should be observed by modern societies

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If you can define, without cutting and pasting, exactly what Christian Nationalism is in the United States, then I will answer.

If it is loving and worshipping the God of the Bible, loving my Country, and supporting traditional Judeo Christian values, then, yes, guilty.

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Good question:

Christian Nationalism insists the USA is a Christian nation and the Founding Father meant it to be.
Christian Nationalism insists on putting the 10 commandments on school walls.
Christian Nationalism insists that abortion regardless of health circumstances is wrong. They project their dogma that life begins at conception
Christian Nationalism insists on Christian symbols (crosses, Nativities, etc) government public spaces.
Christian Nationalism post signs - God Guns Trump.
Politics is preached from the pulpit from preachers and congregations are told who to vote for.

I suppose this a good start.

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Thanks for responding. What do you call the polar opposite?

Leftist churches:
- want religion entirely removed from the public sphere and adhere to an extreme version of separation of church and state.
- support abortion on demand, including public funding.
- post rainbow flags an BLM signs on their churches/church property.
- talk politics from the pulpit and are politically active as much or more.
- oppose taking any position that might offend secularists or other faiths.

BTW I've met and know of very few people who argue we are a Christian nation. I and many other believe it was clear the founders thought Christian values were crucial to our Republic, and they were strongly influenced by their faith in God. And, in practice, Christianity and the Bible were all over the political and public spheres at the time. But, yes, they wanted to avoid a national church that had a role on government.

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I acknowledge argument by anecdote, but I have attended multiple theologically conservative churches. I am not sure I have ever heard a political sermon. However, virtually every time I walk past a theologically liberal church, there is a Burn Loot Murder sign, a Big Gay flag, abortion information, etc. I see similar patterns on social media - having a few pastor friends it is only the theological left ones always posting about some Democrat talking point. I would argue most theologically liberal churches are hardly Christian and just an existing structure for radical transgressives.

In the usual lack of self-awareness, it is not that the left opposed political churches; it just opposes non-transgressive political churches.

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My experience 100%

The swarm here is moving the goal posts and sending out straw men.
1. Moving the goalpost from black churches quest for justice in the political system to liberal churches in general.
My church is progressive but there are no pride flags or Palestinian flags but here is our creed:
Micah 6: 8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good,
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice and to love kindness
and to walk humbly with your God?
For progressives our preaching a call to do justice and love mercy more than fear and revenge.
2. Your projection of trump dogma onto us is wrong.

Waco1947 said:

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Christian nationalism seeks to establish an exclusivist version of Christianity as the dominant moral and cultural order. Christian nationalism overlaps with but is distinct from theonomy, with it being more populist in character. In countries with a state church, Christian nationalists seek to preserve the status of a Christian state by holding an antidisestablishmentarian position to perpetuate the Church in national politics Wikipedia
Theonomy (from Greek theos "God" and nomos "law") is a hypothetical Christian form of government in which society is ruled by divine law. Theonomists hold that divine law, particularly the judicial laws of the Old Testament, should be observed by modern societies

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In other words, does your church believe what the Founders wanted the US to be.

Waco1947 said:

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The swarm here is moving the goal posts and sending out straw men.
1. Moving the goalpost from black churches quest for justice in the political system to liberal churches in general.
My church is progressive but there are no pride flags or Palestinian flags but here is our creed:
Micah 6: 8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good,
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice and to love kindness
and to walk humbly with your God?
For progressives our preaching a call to do justice and love mercy more than fear and revenge.
2. Your projection of trump dogma onto us is wrong.

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Not going to agree or disagree with your point as it isn't relative to the law.

Quote:

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Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public ...Jan 30, 2024

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Churches don't pay taxes with their designation of 501(c) organizations. If they are not tax exempt they can say anything they wish. Taking a tax exempt status prohibits political activity, that has nothing to do with Micah 6:8, but with the actual law.

The IRS will continue to overlook the law, but there are churches on both sides of the political spectrum that violate that law.

Fair question IMO. Consider that Christ never forced anyone to be Christian or even act Christian. My understanding is that Christian Nationalism would.

Waco1947 said:

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The swarm here is moving the goal posts and sending out straw men.
1. Moving the goalpost from black churches quest for justice in the political system to liberal churches in general.
My church is progressive but there are no pride flags or Palestinian flags but here is our creed:
Micah 6: 8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good,
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice and to love kindness
and to walk humbly with your God?
For progressives our preaching a call to do justice and love mercy more than fear and revenge.
2. Your projection of trump dogma onto us is wrong.

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Your idea of justice and God's idea are quite a bit different, I would submit. And in many ways, the Christian Nationalist movement, if there even is such a thing, is pushing for its idea of justice.

But that's not ok in your book because you disagree with it.

Mothra said:

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BUDOS said:

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Fair question IMO. Consider that Christ never forced anyone to be Christian or even act Christian. My understanding is that Christian Nationalism would.

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Can you name the specific political or church figures who are trying to force Americans to become Christians? And what are their methods exactly?

Been going to conservative Christian churches for a long time, and this idea is totally foreign to me. I've never heard any preacher call for the forced conversion of Americans. The idea is contrary to scripture.

I would submit you are believing in a made-up bogeyman, designed to sway your vote in November.

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That's easy. Those mean ol Christian Nationalists won't let women kill their own kids.

GrowlTowel said:

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Honest question - what is wrong with Christian Nationalism?

How does Christian Nationalism negatively affect our economy, culture, nation?

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Nothing is wrong with it. Democrats try to use this as a negative. Same as they do when they say you are against women's rights if you do not believe in the murdering of a baby.

And of course there are the conspiracy theorists; however, unfortunately a few are actually valid in my opinion.

But back to CN
Christian nationalism takes the name of Christ for a worldly political agenda, proclaiming that its program is the political program for every true believer. That is wrong in principle, no matter what the agenda is, because only the church is authorized to proclaim the name of Jesus and carry his standard into the world. It is even worse with a political movement that champions some causes that are unjust, which is the case with Christian nationalism. In that case, Christian nationalism is calling evil good and good evil; it is taking the name of Christ as a fig leaf to cover its political program, treating the message of Jesus as a tool of political propaganda and the church as the handmaiden of the state.

Christianity is a religion focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ as defined by the Christian Bible and the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. It is the gathering of people "from every nation and tribe and people and language," who worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9), a faith that unites Jews and Greeks, Americans and non-Americans together. Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyaltiesbut there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should "fear God, honor the king" (1 Pet. 2:17), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.

Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblicalan understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. Hope it contributes to the discussion.

BUDOS said:

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Fair question IMO. Consider that Christ never forced anyone to be Christian or even act Christian. My understanding is that Christian Nationalism would.

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Correct, Jesus INVITED people to come to Christianity. I never heard of any major denomination force anyone or talk about forcing people to become Christians.

Waco1947 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Rightly so because it is a deep tradition in the AMC and other black denominations. Do you know it is their tradition?

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Being politically active is absolutely a tradition of black churches.

The most politically active denominations in the U.S. are Black Christian ones and Reformed Jews

Look no further for two groups who mix politics and religion together to an extreme extent.

Like most liberals and leftists I don't think you care about the toxic mixing of politics and religion…you just don't personally want White Christians in the fly over States being the ones doing the mixing.

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Never did these black churches advocate for Christian Nationalism, but mega evangelical do.
Black churches advocated for justice and candidates who sought it.

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This is such an incredibly shallow take.

Just because you call it "justice" doesn't mean what someone else does isn't "justice" as well.

Justice aside doesn't matter. Jesus tells us to follow the laws, that is justice. Being a religious political center
is against the law. Breaking Jesus direct command.

Quote:

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Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

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Even if you get away with it, it is still wrong.

BUDOS said:

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And of course there are the conspiracy theorists; however, unfortunately a few are actually valid in my opinion.

But back to CN
Christian nationalism takes the name of Christ for a worldly political agenda, proclaiming that its program is the political program for every true believer. That is wrong in principle, no matter what the agenda is, because only the church is authorized to proclaim the name of Jesus and carry his standard into the world. It is even worse with a political movement that champions some causes that are unjust, which is the case with Christian nationalism. In that case, Christian nationalism is calling evil good and good evil; it is taking the name of Christ as a fig leaf to cover its political program, treating the message of Jesus as a tool of political propaganda and the church as the handmaiden of the state.

Christianity is a religion focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ as defined by the Christian Bible and the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. It is the gathering of people "from every nation and tribe and people and language," who worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9), a faith that unites Jews and Greeks, Americans and non-Americans together. Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyaltiesbut there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should "fear God, honor the king" (1 Pet. 2:17), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.

Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblicalan understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. Hope it contributes to the discussion.

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Or to simplify, "Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a "Christian nation"not merely as an observation about American history, but as a prescriptive program for what America must continue to be in the future. Scholars like Samuel Huntington have made a similar argument: that America is defined by its "Anglo-Protestant" past and that we will lose our identity and our freedom if we do not preserve our cultural inheritance."

Again, pretty much exactly what we were founded on...Christian principles. So no, we are not defined as a Christian Nation, but that is what our founding principles, laws and almost everything else is based on.

BUDOS said:

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And of course there are the conspiracy theorists; however, unfortunately a few are actually valid in my opinion.

But back to CN
Christian nationalism takes the name of Christ for a worldly political agenda, proclaiming that its program is the political program for every true believer. That is wrong in principle, no matter what the agenda is, because only the church is authorized to proclaim the name of Jesus and carry his standard into the world. It is even worse with a political movement that champions some causes that are unjust, which is the case with Christian nationalism. In that case, Christian nationalism is calling evil good and good evil; it is taking the name of Christ as a fig leaf to cover its political program, treating the message of Jesus as a tool of political propaganda and the church as the handmaiden of the state.

Christianity is a religion focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ as defined by the Christian Bible and the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. It is the gathering of people "from every nation and tribe and people and language," who worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9), a faith that unites Jews and Greeks, Americans and non-Americans together. Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyaltiesbut there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should "fear God, honor the king" (1 Pet. 2:17), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.

Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblicalan understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. Hope it contributes to the discussion.

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I appreciate the canned answer. From what source did you copy and paste it? Or was it generated by AI?

And back to my question: Can you name the specific political or church figures who are trying to force Americans to become Christians? And what are their methods exactly?

Mothra said:

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BUDOS said:

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And of course there are the conspiracy theorists; however, unfortunately a few are actually valid in my opinion.

But back to CN
Christian nationalism takes the name of Christ for a worldly political agenda, proclaiming that its program is the political program for every true believer. That is wrong in principle, no matter what the agenda is, because only the church is authorized to proclaim the name of Jesus and carry his standard into the world. It is even worse with a political movement that champions some causes that are unjust, which is the case with Christian nationalism. In that case, Christian nationalism is calling evil good and good evil; it is taking the name of Christ as a fig leaf to cover its political program, treating the message of Jesus as a tool of political propaganda and the church as the handmaiden of the state.

Christianity is a religion focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ as defined by the Christian Bible and the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. It is the gathering of people "from every nation and tribe and people and language," who worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9), a faith that unites Jews and Greeks, Americans and non-Americans together. Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyaltiesbut there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should "fear God, honor the king" (1 Pet. 2:17), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.

Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblicalan understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. Hope it contributes to the discussion.

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I appreciate the canned answer. From what source did you copy and paste it? Or was it generated by AI?

And back to my question: Can you name the specific political or church figures who are trying to force Americans to become Christians? And what are their methods exactly?

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Native Americans were!