Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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And you don't have an answer for how secular anti-religious ideology ends in its own nonsense and mass violence

"Men can become women"

"We must killed hundreds of millions so we can create economic utopia by implementing socialism-communism"

---

That's a red herring. You're trying to assert a false claim that non religious views result in socialism or communism because you think it suits your narrative..

---

Quote:

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And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

While of course refusing to deal with the fact that the most mass murdering ideology in human history was a product of the modern secular non-religious world….and it's still killing & oppressing millions of people (billions if we count communist-atheist China)

You have also not explained how your preferred moral system will not degrade into murder & oppression in the future.

After all….religion and morals are made up according to you and not from a source outside the human materialist experience.

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

Islam, Irish Catholics/Protestants, Inquisition ....

A humanistic approach (recognizing the value of all human beings individually and collectively) is far better

---

French Revolution, Nazism, Communism….

100+ million corpses in the 20th century alone

It's obvious that your humanistic materialism can not go even a decade without mass murder and dropping it's pretense of supposed love of humans as individuals with worth.

---

You're confusing humanism with state authoritarian regime manefestos. They're completely unrelated. Those acts were carried out as state political objectives. From a practical standpoint, in authoritarian controlled states they more or less worship their leaders and controlling parties, follow their manifestos, even to the extent of hanging iconic pictures of leaders on their walls. Humanism is not an arm of the state, and would not support atrocities.

---

These State authoritarian regimes claimed to be working in the name of rational secularism & humanism.

Again you have no explanation for how to prevent your preferred ideology from becoming even more blood thirsty than any religious movement ever was.

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

Your reddit style atheism leads to Marxism....or forms of ideology like it


[Marxist thought viewed religion as an ideological tool used by the ruling class to maintain control, referring to it as the "opium of the people". Communism advocated for a society free from the influence of religious dogma and institutions.

Marxism embraced a materialistic worldview, grounded in scientific and empirical understanding, rather than reliance on supernatural or religious explanations. This is evident in the push for "scientific atheism" in some communist states.

• Communist ideology, in theory, prioritized the well-being and happiness of humankind, focusing on the improvement of human conditions in this life.
• Emphasis on Human Agency: Humanistic aspects of communism, at least in their theoretical form, suggested that humans are capable of shaping their own lives and building a better society through their actions and reason, rather than relying on divine intervention.
• Equality and Social Justice: Communism aimed to eliminate class systems and achieve social justice, creating a society where everyone shared the benefits of labor equally. This was framed as striving for a more humane society. ]

---

Those regimes contradicted humanist ideals, and were characterized by authoritarianism, suppression of dissent, human rights violations, and completely antithetical to the principles of humanism.

Quote:

---

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

How do you stop religous movements that end up blinldy following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

No one can. Islam is a example of this…always looking for a Caliph to follow blindly

But it's you who has made the argument religion in general is somehow more likely to go off the rails and be had for humans.

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Mostly correct but Hitler came to power legally. The Nazis won elections and became the largest party in Germany (but not a majority of seats in the Reichstag). Then, on January 30, 1933, Pres Hindenburg legally appointed Hitler as Chancellor. From that point, they proceeded to dismantle constitutional controls and protections and become a dictatorship.

Christians were not to blame, the Germans were. The mistake of German Christians was the same mistake Christians often make: they became complacent and did not trust in God adequately. Blaming Christians for Hitler is as foolish and dishonest as your other examples.

Atheists often find it easy to point fingers, placing blame in the wrong places. Ironically, that kind of scapegoating is something the Nazis were good at, especially with Jews.

It almost (!) happened again.

The Italian police thwarted an Islamic terror attack in the small town of Viterbo last night, where two Turkish men armed with machine guns were planning to open fire on a crowd of 40.000 Christians who were gathered to celebrate the Feast Day of… pic.twitter.com/Cv85fbbzTf

— Eva Vlaardingerbroek (@EvaVlaar) September 4, 2025

TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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And you don't have an answer for how secular anti-religious ideology ends in its own nonsense and mass violence

"Men can become women"

"We must killed hundreds of millions so we can create economic utopia by implementing socialism-communism"

---

That's a red herring. You're trying to assert a false claim that non religious views result in socialism or communism because you think it suits your narrative..

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

While of course refusing to deal with the fact that the most mass murdering ideology in human history was a product of the modern secular non-religious world….and it's still killing & oppressing millions of people (billions if we count communist-atheist China)

You have also not explained how your preferred moral system will not degrade into murder & oppression in the future.

After all….religion and morals are made up according to you and not from a source outside the human materialist experience.

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

Islam, Irish Catholics/Protestants, Inquisition ....

A humanistic approach (recognizing the value of all human beings individually and collectively) is far better

---

French Revolution, Nazism, Communism….

100+ million corpses in the 20th century alone

It's obvious that your humanistic materialism can not go even a decade without mass murder and dropping it's pretense of supposed love of humans as individuals with worth.

---

You're confusing humanism with state authoritarian regime manefestos. They're completely unrelated. Those acts were carried out as state political objectives. From a practical standpoint, in authoritarian controlled states they more or less worship their leaders and controlling parties, follow their manifestos, even to the extent of hanging iconic pictures of leaders on their walls. Humanism is not an arm of the state, and would not support atrocities.

---

These State authoritarian regimes claimed to be working in the name of rational secularism & humanism.

Again you have no explanation for how to prevent your preferred ideology from becoming even more blood thirsty than any religious movement ever was.

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

Your reddit style atheism leads to Marxism....or forms of ideology like it


[Marxist thought viewed religion as an ideological tool used by the ruling class to maintain control, referring to it as the "opium of the people". Communism advocated for a society free from the influence of religious dogma and institutions.

Marxism embraced a materialistic worldview, grounded in scientific and empirical understanding, rather than reliance on supernatural or religious explanations. This is evident in the push for "scientific atheism" in some communist states.

• Communist ideology, in theory, prioritized the well-being and happiness of humankind, focusing on the improvement of human conditions in this life.
• Emphasis on Human Agency: Humanistic aspects of communism, at least in their theoretical form, suggested that humans are capable of shaping their own lives and building a better society through their actions and reason, rather than relying on divine intervention.
• Equality and Social Justice: Communism aimed to eliminate class systems and achieve social justice, creating a society where everyone shared the benefits of labor equally. This was framed as striving for a more humane society. ]

---

Those regimes contradicted humanist ideals, and were characterized by authoritarianism, suppression of dissent, human rights violations, and completely antithetical to the principles of humanism.

Quote:

---

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

How do you stop religous movements that end up blinldy following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

No one can. Islam is a example of this…always looking for a Caliph to follow blindly

But it's you who has made the argument religion in general is somehow more likely to go off the rails and be had for humans.

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

lol because Hitler, Stalin, and Mao killed hundreds of millions of people were religious zealots?

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Dictatorial statist leftist zealots who ruthlessly suppressed (i.e. slaughtered) religious people as threats to their HUMANIST regimes.

---

FIFY

Lyon, France, Sep 12, 2025 / 17:04 pm

A 45-year-old Iraqi Christian who fled his homeland to escape Islamist persecution was stabbed to death in Lyon in southern France on the evening of Sept. 10.

He was reportedly livestreaming a video on TikTok in which he spoke about his faith. The attack has shocked local Christian communities and drawn calls for clarity on the motives behind the killing.

According tolocal newspaper Le Progrs, the victim, identified as Ashur Sarnaya who was disabled and used a wheelchair was returning to his apartment building when a man, apparently waiting for him, struck him in the neck with a knife. Emergency services, alerted shortly before 10:30 p.m., found him in cardiac arrest and were unable to revive him.

Born in 1979, Sarnaya had lived in the building with his sister for more than a decade after fleeing the advance of the Islamic State in Iraq in 2014. Neighbors described him as "a vulnerable person who didn't walk and never caused any trouble."

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/266541/christian-in-wheelchair-killed-while-livestreaming-his-faith-in-france?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Assassin said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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And you don't have an answer for how secular anti-religious ideology ends in its own nonsense and mass violence

"Men can become women"

"We must killed hundreds of millions so we can create economic utopia by implementing socialism-communism"

---

That's a red herring. You're trying to assert a false claim that non religious views result in socialism or communism because you think it suits your narrative..

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

While of course refusing to deal with the fact that the most mass murdering ideology in human history was a product of the modern secular non-religious world….and it's still killing & oppressing millions of people (billions if we count communist-atheist China)

You have also not explained how your preferred moral system will not degrade into murder & oppression in the future.

After all….religion and morals are made up according to you and not from a source outside the human materialist experience.

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

Islam, Irish Catholics/Protestants, Inquisition ....

A humanistic approach (recognizing the value of all human beings individually and collectively) is far better

---

French Revolution, Nazism, Communism….

100+ million corpses in the 20th century alone

It's obvious that your humanistic materialism can not go even a decade without mass murder and dropping it's pretense of supposed love of humans as individuals with worth.

---

You're confusing humanism with state authoritarian regime manefestos. They're completely unrelated. Those acts were carried out as state political objectives. From a practical standpoint, in authoritarian controlled states they more or less worship their leaders and controlling parties, follow their manifestos, even to the extent of hanging iconic pictures of leaders on their walls. Humanism is not an arm of the state, and would not support atrocities.

---

These State authoritarian regimes claimed to be working in the name of rational secularism & humanism.

Again you have no explanation for how to prevent your preferred ideology from becoming even more blood thirsty than any religious movement ever was.

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

Your reddit style atheism leads to Marxism....or forms of ideology like it


[Marxist thought viewed religion as an ideological tool used by the ruling class to maintain control, referring to it as the "opium of the people". Communism advocated for a society free from the influence of religious dogma and institutions.

Marxism embraced a materialistic worldview, grounded in scientific and empirical understanding, rather than reliance on supernatural or religious explanations. This is evident in the push for "scientific atheism" in some communist states.

• Communist ideology, in theory, prioritized the well-being and happiness of humankind, focusing on the improvement of human conditions in this life.
• Emphasis on Human Agency: Humanistic aspects of communism, at least in their theoretical form, suggested that humans are capable of shaping their own lives and building a better society through their actions and reason, rather than relying on divine intervention.
• Equality and Social Justice: Communism aimed to eliminate class systems and achieve social justice, creating a society where everyone shared the benefits of labor equally. This was framed as striving for a more humane society. ]

---

Those regimes contradicted humanist ideals, and were characterized by authoritarianism, suppression of dissent, human rights violations, and completely antithetical to the principles of humanism.

Quote:

---

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

How do you stop religous movements that end up blinldy following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

No one can. Islam is a example of this…always looking for a Caliph to follow blindly

But it's you who has made the argument religion in general is somehow more likely to go off the rails and be had for humans.

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

You realize that the US, at least for now is secular. This country was founded in part to be free of state sponsored religion, a democratic republic as opposed to a theocracy.

You

---

And we keep repeating over and over is that you are wrong. Germans did not "stand by and let it happen". No matter how you keep rephrasing it, it's incorrect

---

Where was the widespread uprising in Germany? It just doesn't fit your narrative.

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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And you don't have an answer for how secular anti-religious ideology ends in its own nonsense and mass violence

"Men can become women"

"We must killed hundreds of millions so we can create economic utopia by implementing socialism-communism"

---

That's a red herring. You're trying to assert a false claim that non religious views result in socialism or communism because you think it suits your narrative..

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

While of course refusing to deal with the fact that the most mass murdering ideology in human history was a product of the modern secular non-religious world….and it's still killing & oppressing millions of people (billions if we count communist-atheist China)

You have also not explained how your preferred moral system will not degrade into murder & oppression in the future.

After all….religion and morals are made up according to you and not from a source outside the human materialist experience.

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

Islam, Irish Catholics/Protestants, Inquisition ....

A humanistic approach (recognizing the value of all human beings individually and collectively) is far better

---

French Revolution, Nazism, Communism….

100+ million corpses in the 20th century alone

It's obvious that your humanistic materialism can not go even a decade without mass murder and dropping it's pretense of supposed love of humans as individuals with worth.

---

You're confusing humanism with state authoritarian regime manefestos. They're completely unrelated. Those acts were carried out as state political objectives. From a practical standpoint, in authoritarian controlled states they more or less worship their leaders and controlling parties, follow their manifestos, even to the extent of hanging iconic pictures of leaders on their walls. Humanism is not an arm of the state, and would not support atrocities.

---

These State authoritarian regimes claimed to be working in the name of rational secularism & humanism.

Again you have no explanation for how to prevent your preferred ideology from becoming even more blood thirsty than any religious movement ever was.

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

Your reddit style atheism leads to Marxism....or forms of ideology like it


[Marxist thought viewed religion as an ideological tool used by the ruling class to maintain control, referring to it as the "opium of the people". Communism advocated for a society free from the influence of religious dogma and institutions.

Marxism embraced a materialistic worldview, grounded in scientific and empirical understanding, rather than reliance on supernatural or religious explanations. This is evident in the push for "scientific atheism" in some communist states.

• Communist ideology, in theory, prioritized the well-being and happiness of humankind, focusing on the improvement of human conditions in this life.
• Emphasis on Human Agency: Humanistic aspects of communism, at least in their theoretical form, suggested that humans are capable of shaping their own lives and building a better society through their actions and reason, rather than relying on divine intervention.
• Equality and Social Justice: Communism aimed to eliminate class systems and achieve social justice, creating a society where everyone shared the benefits of labor equally. This was framed as striving for a more humane society. ]

---

Those regimes contradicted humanist ideals, and were characterized by authoritarianism, suppression of dissent, human rights violations, and completely antithetical to the principles of humanism.

Quote:

---

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

How do you stop religous movements that end up blinldy following their leadership and party functionaries?

---

No one can. Islam is a example of this…always looking for a Caliph to follow blindly

But it's you who has made the argument religion in general is somehow more likely to go off the rails and be had for humans.

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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And you don't have an answer for how secular anti-religious ideology ends in its own nonsense and mass violence

"Men can become women"

"We must killed hundreds of millions so we can create economic utopia by implementing socialism-communism"

---

That's a red herring. You're trying to assert a false claim that non religious views result in socialism or communism because you think it suits your narrative..

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

While of course refusing to deal with the fact that the most mass murdering ideology in human history was a product of the modern secular non-religious world….and it's still killing & oppressing millions of people (billions if we count communist-atheist China)

You have also not explained how your preferred moral system will not degrade into murder & oppression in the future.

After all….religion and morals are made up according to you and not from a source outside the human materialist experience.

---

Quote:

---

And you have spent your time on here engaging in a false claim that religious belief results in violence…

---

Islam, Irish Catholics/Protestants, Inquisition ....

A humanistic approach (recognizing the value of all human beings individually and collectively) is far better

---

French Revolution, Nazism, Communism….

100+ million corpses in the 20th century alone

It's obvious that your humanistic materialism can not go even a decade without mass murder and dropping it's pretense of supposed love of humans as individuals with worth.

---

You're confusing humanism with state authoritarian regime manefestos. They're completely unrelated. Those acts were carried out as state political objectives. From a practical standpoint, in authoritarian controlled states they more or less worship their leaders and controlling parties, follow their manifestos, even to the extent of hanging iconic pictures of leaders on their walls. Humanism is not an arm of the state, and would not support atrocities.

---

These State authoritarian regimes claimed to be working in the name of rational secularism & humanism.

Again you have no explanation for how to prevent your preferred ideology from becoming even more blood thirsty than any religious movement ever was.

And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

Your reddit style atheism leads to Marxism....or forms of ideology like it


[Marxist thought viewed religion as an ideological tool used by the ruling class to maintain control, referring to it as the "opium of the people". Communism advocated for a society free from the influence of religious dogma and institutions.

Marxism embraced a materialistic worldview, grounded in scientific and empirical understanding, rather than reliance on supernatural or religious explanations. This is evident in the push for "scientific atheism" in some communist states.

• Communist ideology, in theory, prioritized the well-being and happiness of humankind, focusing on the improvement of human conditions in this life.
• Emphasis on Human Agency: Humanistic aspects of communism, at least in their theoretical form, suggested that humans are capable of shaping their own lives and building a better society through their actions and reason, rather than relying on divine intervention.
• Equality and Social Justice: Communism aimed to eliminate class systems and achieve social justice, creating a society where everyone shared the benefits of labor equally. This was framed as striving for a more humane society. ]

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Those regimes contradicted humanist ideals, and were characterized by authoritarianism, suppression of dissent, human rights violations, and completely antithetical to the principles of humanism.

Quote:

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And the fact that these secular movements often revere their leaders is another flaw that you don't have an answer for.

How do you intend to stop secular movements that ended up blindly following their leadership and party functionaries?

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How do you stop religous movements that end up blinldy following their leadership and party functionaries?

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No one can. Islam is a example of this…always looking for a Caliph to follow blindly

But it's you who has made the argument religion in general is somehow more likely to go off the rails and be had for humans.

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

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You could substitute Christianity or religion for secularism in you argument and it would equally apply. People with a political agenda can embrace anything and pervert it, misuse, abuse, misrepresent or distort it for their purposes. I'm sure the conversion of indigenous people in the Americas by the Church does not represent what you claim Christianity is all about.

Add to that record Pol Pot, Castro, Ho Chi Ming, etc snd the numbers increase. Then there is the American Holocaust: over 59 million innocent babies murdered in the womb since Roe. And that was (& still is) publicly encouraged & celebrated as a "right".

whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

historian said:

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Add to that record Pol Pot, Castro, Ho Chi Ming, etc snd the numbers increase. Then there is the American Holocaust: over 59 million innocent babies murdered in the womb since Roe. And that was (& still is) publicly encouraged & celebrated as a "right".

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Yes add that to the list of atrocities throughout history by Christians, other religions, and statist regimes.

The problem is extreme religious, political, and/or statist tribalism vilifies, demonizes, and dehumanizes others to the point there is no empathy for others.

TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

Dude, we've been over this ZILLIONS of times and you keep repeating the same lies, even after proven you are full of shyte. Why is that?

Assassin said:

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TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

Dude, we've been over this ZILLIONS of times and you keep repeating the same lies, even after proven you are full of shyte. Why is that?

---

The largest church in Germany was the German Evangelical Church that included Lutheran, Reformed and United. It had about 40 million people in it in the 1920s out of a 60 million population. The rest were Roman Catholic

The population was strongly anti-Communist and that's how the Nazi's got started along with the resentment forward the international community for the Treaty of Versailles

The Nazi's stated policy fighting Communism made them very popular everywhere, just as they would have been celebrated her post WWI/Russian Revolution of 1917.

In the 1920s, some of the more radical of the German Evangelical Church formed a spinoff group called the German Christian Church, meanwhile another opposing church took the rest of the Lutherans in a different direction, the German Confessing Church.

German Christians Church: This group, largely aligned with Nazi ideology of fighting Communism, aimed to integrate the Protestant Church into the Nazi state.

Confessing Church: This dissenting faction, initially formed as the Pastors' Emergency League, opposed the German Christians' efforts to Nazify the church.

Hitler didn't take control of the Nazi's until 1933.

By 1934, the Confessing Church included around 7,000 pastors, a significant number considering there were 18,000 Protestant pastors in total. While the Nazi party had significant influence, the German Christians did not represent a majority of the Protestant population.

Focus: The German Christians sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, while the Confessing Church focused on maintaining the autonomy and independence of the church.

Hence, most Lutherans were not part of the Nazi regime but instead fought against it. Look up Dietrich Bonhoeffer for example

---------------------

While it's difficult to pinpoint an exact number, it's estimated that several thousand members of the German Confessing Church were murdered by the Nazis. The Nazis persecuted the Confessing Church, a Protestant movement that resisted the Nazi regime's attempts to control the church. Many pastors and members were arrested, imprisoned, and even killed for their opposition.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

The Confessing Church:
This Protestant movement emerged in opposition to the Nazi-backed "Reich Church" which sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, according to Britannica.

Resistance:
The Confessing Church actively resisted Nazi control, particularly regarding euthanasia and the persecution of Jews, according to Britannica.

Persecution:
The Nazis responded with increasing pressure, including arrests, imprisonment, and even murder of Confessing Church members, according to Britannica.

Notable Figures:
Individuals like Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, key figures in the Confessing Church, were arrested and imprisoned for their opposition.

Extent of Persecution:
While the exact number of those killed is not precisely known, Wikipedia says it is clear that the Nazis targeted the Confessing Church, including clergy and members, for their resistance to Nazi ideology.

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party. There was some resistance among Catholic clergy, and lay people, but there was even more complaisance and support, and even worse Catholic assistence with escape of Nazi war criminals. I've posted about this before extensively in another thread. Fr. Charles Coughlin, a precursor to Rush Limbaught like radio talk shows, was a Catholic pro Nazi, pro Facist, anti-Semitic right here in the US. With such a majority of professing Christians in Germany, if they resisted the Nazi party would not have prevailed. Which begs the quesstion, why didn't Jesus lead the way?

The bottom line, is Christianity doesn't have any historic moral high ground to stand on greater than any other religion or social construct. It's 'moral tenets' pigggy back on and are rooted in ancient Jewish and Canaanite laws, traditions, and myths, and are often compromised for expediency of the times, or its own theological objectives.

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party. There was some resistance among Catholic clergy, and lay people, but there was even more complaisance and support, and even worse Catholic assistence with escape of Nazi war criminals. I've posted about this before extensively in another thread. Fr. Charles Coughlin, a precursor to Rush Limbaught like radio talk shows, was a Catholic pro Nazi, pro Facist, anti-Semitic right here in the US. With such a majority of professing Christians in Germany, if they resisted the Nazi party would not have prevailed. Which begs the quesstion, why didn't Jesus lead the way?

The bottom line, is Christianity doesn't have any historic moral high ground to stand on greater than any other religion or social construct. It's 'moral tenets' pigggy back on and are rooted in ancient Jewish and Canaanite laws, traditions, and myths, and are often compromised for expediency of the times, or its own theological objectives.

---

Again, you miss the obvious.

Let me repeat this for you again. I will keep repeatiing it for you until you actually read it'

The largest church in Germany was the German Evangelical Church that included Lutheran, Reformed and United. It had about 40 million people in it in the 1920s out of a 60 million population. The rest were Roman Catholic

The population was strongly anti-Communist and that's how the Nazi's got started along with the resentment forward the international community for the Treaty of Versailles

The Nazi's stated policy fighting Communism made them very popular everywhere, just as they would have been celebrated her post WWI/Russian Revolution of 1917.

In the 1920s, some of the more radical of the German Evangelical Church formed a spinoff group called the German Christian Church, meanwhile another opposing church took the rest of the Lutherans in a different direction, the German Confessing Church.

German Christians Church: This group, largely aligned with Nazi ideology of fighting Communism, aimed to integrate the Protestant Church into the Nazi state.

Confessing Church: This dissenting faction, initially formed as the Pastors' Emergency League, opposed the German Christians' efforts to Nazify the church.

Hitler didn't take control of the Nazi's until 1933.

By 1934, the Confessing Church included around 7,000 pastors, a significant number considering there were 18,000 Protestant pastors in total. While the Nazi party had significant influence, the German Christians did not represent a majority of the Protestant population.

Focus: The German Christians sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, while the Confessing Church focused on maintaining the autonomy and independence of the church.

Hence, most Lutherans were not part of the Nazi regime but instead fought against it. Look up Dietrich Bonhoeffer for example

---------------------

While it's difficult to pinpoint an exact number, it's estimated that several thousand members of the German Confessing Church were murdered by the Nazis. The Nazis persecuted the Confessing Church, a Protestant movement that resisted the Nazi regime's attempts to control the church. Many pastors and members were arrested, imprisoned, and even killed for their opposition.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

The Confessing Church:
This Protestant movement emerged in opposition to the Nazi-backed "Reich Church" which sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, according to Britannica.
Resistance:

The Confessing Church actively resisted Nazi control, particularly regarding euthanasia and the persecution of Jews, according to Britannica.

Persecution:
The Nazis responded with increasing pressure, including arrests, imprisonment, and even murder of Confessing Church members, according to Britannica.

Notable Figures:
Individuals like Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, key figures in the Confessing Church, were arrested and imprisoned for their opposition.

Extent of Persecution:
While the exact number of those killed is not precisely known, Wikipedia says it is clear that the Nazis targeted the Confessing Church, including clergy and members, for their resistance to Nazi ideology. Additionally many members of the Confessing Church were murdered

No. National socialists were far Left

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.

---

You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....

• Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
• Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]

Correction: Hitler took control of the Nazi Party long before 1933. That was the year he was appointed chancellor and took over Germany. Most of the years before then, the Nazis were a fringe minority party that no one took seriously. The onset of the Great Depression increased their appeal because they did what Leftist parties always do in such emergencies: they promised to fix things. They never won a majority of the popular vote, though, and they were never a Christian movement. At most, they sometimes hijacked Christian rhetoric in their propaganda to fool people into thinking them less dangerous (kinda like US Dems pretend to be Christian). Some people are easily fooled especially when the economy is in the toilet. In reality, the Nazis were more satanic than anything else.

On this day, 103 years ago, more than 100,000 Christian civilians were murdered by a Muslim army.

They were burned alive, raped, tortured, beaten to death, and drowned.

And they weren't the first -- they were last. Over the previous decade, more than 2 million Christians in…

— Porter Stansberry (@porterstansb) September 14, 2025

There should be near zero Muslim immigration to the United States https://t.co/IfGa1tJNNo

— Will Chamberlain (@willchamberlain) September 16, 2025

TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

LOL The political party known as "National Socialist," not withstanding the explicit endorsement of socialism in its well documented ideology, is actually "far right."

you cannot make it up. Trans-politics at its finest. You don't know your genders, you don't know your pronouns. And now we see that you do not even know your own leftists.

These are very simple concepts:
Communism is collectivism by class.
Fascism is collectivism by race.
They are two sides of the same coin - collectivism - which elevates the state over the individual.

Do you also believe the sun rises in the west and sets in the east?

Assassin said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party. There was some resistance among Catholic clergy, and lay people, but there was even more complaisance and support, and even worse Catholic assistence with escape of Nazi war criminals. I've posted about this before extensively in another thread. Fr. Charles Coughlin, a precursor to Rush Limbaught like radio talk shows, was a Catholic pro Nazi, pro Facist, anti-Semitic right here in the US. With such a majority of professing Christians in Germany, if they resisted the Nazi party would not have prevailed. Which begs the quesstion, why didn't Jesus lead the way?

The bottom line, is Christianity doesn't have any historic moral high ground to stand on greater than any other religion or social construct. It's 'moral tenets' pigggy back on and are rooted in ancient Jewish and Canaanite laws, traditions, and myths, and are often compromised for expediency of the times, or its own theological objectives.

---

Again, you miss the obvious.

Let me repeat this for you again. I will keep repeatiing it for you until you actually read it'

The largest church in Germany was the German Evangelical Church that included Lutheran, Reformed and United. It had about 40 million people in it in the 1920s out of a 60 million population. The rest were Roman Catholic

The population was strongly anti-Communist and that's how the Nazi's got started along with the resentment forward the international community for the Treaty of Versailles

The Nazi's stated policy fighting Communism made them very popular everywhere, just as they would have been celebrated her post WWI/Russian Revolution of 1917.

In the 1920s, some of the more radical of the German Evangelical Church formed a spinoff group called the German Christian Church, meanwhile another opposing church took the rest of the Lutherans in a different direction, the German Confessing Church.

German Christians Church: This group, largely aligned with Nazi ideology of fighting Communism, aimed to integrate the Protestant Church into the Nazi state.

Confessing Church: This dissenting faction, initially formed as the Pastors' Emergency League, opposed the German Christians' efforts to Nazify the church.

Hitler didn't take control of the Nazi's until 1933.

By 1934, the Confessing Church included around 7,000 pastors, a significant number considering there were 18,000 Protestant pastors in total. While the Nazi party had significant influence, the German Christians did not represent a majority of the Protestant population.

Focus: The German Christians sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, while the Confessing Church focused on maintaining the autonomy and independence of the church.

Hence, most Lutherans were not part of the Nazi regime but instead fought against it. Look up Dietrich Bonhoeffer for example

---------------------

While it's difficult to pinpoint an exact number, it's estimated that several thousand members of the German Confessing Church were murdered by the Nazis. The Nazis persecuted the Confessing Church, a Protestant movement that resisted the Nazi regime's attempts to control the church. Many pastors and members were arrested, imprisoned, and even killed for their opposition.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

The Confessing Church:
This Protestant movement emerged in opposition to the Nazi-backed "Reich Church" which sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, according to Britannica.
Resistance:

The Confessing Church actively resisted Nazi control, particularly regarding euthanasia and the persecution of Jews, according to Britannica.

Persecution:
The Nazis responded with increasing pressure, including arrests, imprisonment, and even murder of Confessing Church members, according to Britannica.

Notable Figures:
Individuals like Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, key figures in the Confessing Church, were arrested and imprisoned for their opposition.

Extent of Persecution:
While the exact number of those killed is not precisely known, Wikipedia says it is clear that the Nazis targeted the Confessing Church, including clergy and members, for their resistance to Nazi ideology. Additionally many members of the Confessing Church were murdered

---

And .... you miss the obvious. Despite what essentially was token resistance (not in some individual cases), the Nazi party was composed of "Christian members," Protestants and Catholics. It was the only way they could have reached or maintained power. Over 94% of the population was Protestant and Catholic. They were complicit.

historian said:

---

No. National socialists were far Left

---

The Nazi Party, officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), was a far-right political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945 that created and supported the ideology of Nazism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#:~:text=The%20Nazi%20Party%2C%20officially%20the,supported%20the%20ideology%20of%20Nazism.

Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.

---

You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....

• Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
• Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]

---

It's not just some members. It was an overwhelming percentage of Germans, primarily Protestants and Catholics who were members of the party itself. That is my point. A majority of Christians were complicit. You can't deny or refute that. Kudos to those who resisted and even lost their lives trying to do the right thing. But overall, Christians were complicit.

TexasScientist said:

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Assassin said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party. There was some resistance among Catholic clergy, and lay people, but there was even more complaisance and support, and even worse Catholic assistence with escape of Nazi war criminals. I've posted about this before extensively in another thread. Fr. Charles Coughlin, a precursor to Rush Limbaught like radio talk shows, was a Catholic pro Nazi, pro Facist, anti-Semitic right here in the US. With such a majority of professing Christians in Germany, if they resisted the Nazi party would not have prevailed. Which begs the quesstion, why didn't Jesus lead the way?

The bottom line, is Christianity doesn't have any historic moral high ground to stand on greater than any other religion or social construct. It's 'moral tenets' pigggy back on and are rooted in ancient Jewish and Canaanite laws, traditions, and myths, and are often compromised for expediency of the times, or its own theological objectives.

---

Again, you miss the obvious.

Let me repeat this for you again. I will keep repeatiing it for you until you actually read it'

The largest church in Germany was the German Evangelical Church that included Lutheran, Reformed and United. It had about 40 million people in it in the 1920s out of a 60 million population. The rest were Roman Catholic

The population was strongly anti-Communist and that's how the Nazi's got started along with the resentment forward the international community for the Treaty of Versailles

The Nazi's stated policy fighting Communism made them very popular everywhere, just as they would have been celebrated her post WWI/Russian Revolution of 1917.

In the 1920s, some of the more radical of the German Evangelical Church formed a spinoff group called the German Christian Church, meanwhile another opposing church took the rest of the Lutherans in a different direction, the German Confessing Church.

German Christians Church: This group, largely aligned with Nazi ideology of fighting Communism, aimed to integrate the Protestant Church into the Nazi state.

Confessing Church: This dissenting faction, initially formed as the Pastors' Emergency League, opposed the German Christians' efforts to Nazify the church.

Hitler didn't take control of the Nazi's until 1933.

By 1934, the Confessing Church included around 7,000 pastors, a significant number considering there were 18,000 Protestant pastors in total. While the Nazi party had significant influence, the German Christians did not represent a majority of the Protestant population.

Focus: The German Christians sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, while the Confessing Church focused on maintaining the autonomy and independence of the church.

Hence, most Lutherans were not part of the Nazi regime but instead fought against it. Look up Dietrich Bonhoeffer for example

---------------------

While it's difficult to pinpoint an exact number, it's estimated that several thousand members of the German Confessing Church were murdered by the Nazis. The Nazis persecuted the Confessing Church, a Protestant movement that resisted the Nazi regime's attempts to control the church. Many pastors and members were arrested, imprisoned, and even killed for their opposition.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

The Confessing Church:
This Protestant movement emerged in opposition to the Nazi-backed "Reich Church" which sought to align Protestantism with Nazi ideology, according to Britannica.
Resistance:

The Confessing Church actively resisted Nazi control, particularly regarding euthanasia and the persecution of Jews, according to Britannica.

Persecution:
The Nazis responded with increasing pressure, including arrests, imprisonment, and even murder of Confessing Church members, according to Britannica.

Notable Figures:
Individuals like Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, key figures in the Confessing Church, were arrested and imprisoned for their opposition.

Extent of Persecution:
While the exact number of those killed is not precisely known, Wikipedia says it is clear that the Nazis targeted the Confessing Church, including clergy and members, for their resistance to Nazi ideology. Additionally many members of the Confessing Church were murdered

---

And .... you miss the obvious. Despite what essentially was token resistance (not in some individual cases), the Nazi party was composed of "Christian members," Protestants and Catholics. It was the only way they could have reached or maintained power. Over 94% of the population was Protestant and Catholic. They were complicit.

---

I'm a simple man with simple arguments. Unfortunately, you are more of a simpleton. Good luck with your future endeavor.

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.

---

You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....

• Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
• Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]

---

It's not just some members. It was an overwhelming percentage of Germans, primarily Protestants and Catholics who were members of the party itself. That is my point. A majority of Christians were complicit. You can't deny or refute that. Kudos to those who resisted and even lost their lives trying to do the right thing. But overall, Christians were complicit.

---

The Nazi party itself did not even have many members actually.

"In the 1920s the Nazi party had less than 80,000 members.

1933: After Hitler was appointed chancellor in January, membership increased rapidly, reaching around 850,000 by the end of the year."

When Hitler took power it still has less than 1 million

Germany had a population of 66-67 million in 1933

The vast majority of Germans were not Nazi party members or party voters

And of the party itself it was more agnostic and Lutheran by member.

[Most Germans belonged to a Christian church, with the Nazi Party membership mirroring this demographic.
Protestant majority:
Protestants, especially Lutherans, were over-represented in the Nazi Party's membership and electorate, particularly in Northern Germany.
Catholic minority:
Catholics were under-represented in the party, as many voted for the Catholic Centre Party instead. However, some high-ranking Nazis, including Hitler himself, were nominal Catholics from Southern Germany…]

You are attacking Christians…because a criminal party had religious demographics that mirrored the country it was in..

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.

---

You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....

• Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
• Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]

---

It's not just some members. It was an overwhelming percentage of Germans, primarily Protestants and Catholics who were members of the party itself. That is my point. A majority of Christians were complicit. You can't deny or refute that. Kudos to those who resisted and even lost their lives trying to do the right thing. But overall, Christians were complicit.

---

The Nazi party itself did not even have many members actually.

"In the 1920s the Nazi party had less than 80,000 members.

1933: After Hitler was appointed chancellor in January, membership increased rapidly, reaching around 850,000 by the end of the year."

When Hitler took power it still has less than 1 million

Germany had a population of 66-67 million in 1933

The vast majority of Germans were not Nazi party members or party voters

And of the party itself it was more agnostic and Lutheran by member.

[Most Germans belonged to a Christian church, with the Nazi Party membership mirroring this demographic.
Protestant majority:
Protestants, especially Lutherans, were over-represented in the Nazi Party's membership and electorate, particularly in Northern Germany.
Catholic minority:
Catholics were under-represented in the party, as many voted for the Catholic Centre Party instead. However, some high-ranking Nazis, including Hitler himself, were nominal Catholics from Southern Germany…]

You are attacking Christians…because a criminal party had religious demographics that mirrored the country it was in..

---

Most Lutherans were members of The Confessing Church, the ones that were against everything the Nazi's stood for

Assassin said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

whiterock said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

---

Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

---

"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

---

You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

---

And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

---

My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

---

So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

---

Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

---

Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

---

Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

---

1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

---

That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party.

---

You seem incapable of understanding that having some members of a religious group inside a political Party....does NOT make that Party a supporter of a specific religion...nor that religions adherents supporters of the said Party.

Catholics as a group were especially known as non-Nazi party supporters.

Catholics voted on mass for the Center party throughout the 1920s and 1930s

Catholic majority areas of Germany were in fact where the Nazi party got its lowest vote levels and saw the least support.

[Catholic bishops in Germany warned against the Nazis and some Bishops forbid party membership in the 1920s and 30s....

• Specific bans: The bishop of Mainz explicitly excommunicated Catholic members of the Nazi Party in his diocese in 1930. The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano also stated that membership was "irreconcilable with the Catholic conscience".
• Widespread condemnation: In 1931, the bishops of Paderborn and Freiburg issued similar warnings, while Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich called for a warning against Nazism because its views were "not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine"]

---

It's not just some members. It was an overwhelming percentage of Germans, primarily Protestants and Catholics who were members of the party itself. That is my point. A majority of Christians were complicit. You can't deny or refute that. Kudos to those who resisted and even lost their lives trying to do the right thing. But overall, Christians were complicit.

---

The Nazi party itself did not even have many members actually.

"In the 1920s the Nazi party had less than 80,000 members.

1933: After Hitler was appointed chancellor in January, membership increased rapidly, reaching around 850,000 by the end of the year."

When Hitler took power it still has less than 1 million

Germany had a population of 66-67 million in 1933

The vast majority of Germans were not Nazi party members or party voters

And of the party itself it was more agnostic and Lutheran by member.

[Most Germans belonged to a Christian church, with the Nazi Party membership mirroring this demographic.
Protestant majority:
Protestants, especially Lutherans, were over-represented in the Nazi Party's membership and electorate, particularly in Northern Germany.
Catholic minority:
Catholics were under-represented in the party, as many voted for the Catholic Centre Party instead. However, some high-ranking Nazis, including Hitler himself, were nominal Catholics from Southern Germany…]

You are attacking Christians…because a criminal party had religious demographics that mirrored the country it was in..

---

Most Lutherans were members of The Confessing Church, the ones that were against everything the Nazi's stood for

---

True

And he still has not explained why Christians in Germany are responsible for the Nazis (a minority party that seized power by force and illegal means)….but Buddhists in China are not responsible for the Communist party?

Obviously there is simply no good argument for blaming Christian's in Germany or Buddhists in China for small criminal parties that seize power by force

TexasScientist said:

---

historian said:

---

No. National socialists were far Left

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The Nazi Party, officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), was a far-LEFT political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945 that created and supported the ideology of Nazism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#:~:text=The%20Nazi%20Party%2C%20officially%20the,supported%20the%20ideology%20of%20Nazism.

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FIFY
Wikipedia is notoriously wrong on many things. This is another example. It's a common mistake because most people don't know the truth. (They did get the German name correct). Most of us were taught incorrectly in school by Leftist teachers and professors repeating the lie that defies all facts and common sense. Nazi is a shortened form of National Socialist with Socialist being the key word in understanding who they were.

As noted above, the Nazis were no more Christian than the demographics of any other large group. Maybe some of them were nominally "Christian", probably those who called themselves "Christian" because they were baptized or attended church on Christmas and Easter. They were not "Christians" in the Christian sense, that is by God's definition. They were almost certainly the kind of "Christians" Christ said he did not know because they did not truly follow Him:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV

And none of this makes the Nazi Party a Christian organization. Nothing about Nazism follows Christian principles as evidenced by Christ's two greatest commandments:

"Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mathew 22:37-40 NIV

You are convincing no-one except yourself, and that's only because you are too arrogant and stubborn to see the truth. The only way one can truly understand God and come to Christ is through humility and repentance.

historian said:

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TexasScientist said:

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historian said:

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No. National socialists were far Left

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The Nazi Party, officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), was a far-LEFT political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945 that created and supported the ideology of Nazism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#:~:text=The%20Nazi%20Party%2C%20officially%20the,supported%20the%20ideology%20of%20Nazism.

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FIFY
Wikipedia is notoriously wrong on many things. This is another example. It's a common mistake because most people don't know the truth. (They did get the German name correct). Most of us were taught incorrectly in school by Leftist teachers and professors repeating the lie that defies all facts and common sense. Nazi is a shortened form of National Socialist with Socialist being the key word in understanding who they were.

As noted above, the Nazis were no more Christian than the demographics of any other large group. Maybe some of them were nominally "Christian", probably those who called themselves "Christian" because they were baptized or attended church on Christmas and Easter. They were not "Christians" in the Christian sense, that is by God's definition. They were almost certainly the kind of "Christians" Christ said he did not know because they did not truly follow Him:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV

And none of this makes the Nazi Party a Christian organization. Nothing about Nazism follows Christian principles as evidenced by Christ's two greatest commandments:

"Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mathew 22:37-40 NIV

You are convincing no-one except yourself, and that's only because you are too arrogant and stubborn to see the truth. The only way one can truly understand God and come to Christ is through humility and repentance.

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Look at the irony of his argument. Like all good leftists, he insists that words mean whatever they need them to mean, in this case that National Socialists are not only NOT socialists, but the actually the antithesis of socialists....far, far right wingers.

If we apply that logic to Antifa, then....curiously....we arrive at the truth = the anatifascists ARE the fascists.

Porteroso said:

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Wangchung said:

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Porteroso said:

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Wangchung said:

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Porteroso said:

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whiterock said:

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Porteroso said:

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Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are very closely related religions that have all been used for immense good and evil. In a state like Iran, it is used to reinforce a political ideology, much like Christianity was used in Europe to crusade.

Blaming the religion itself is a stupid brain dead thing to do. Just look at all the peaceful Muslims in the world. Look who are terrorists and attempting jihad. It is mostly Iran and its proxies. And virtually all other Muslims hate them.

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Tell us you don't know what you're talking about without saying you don't know what you're talking about…..

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I'm sorry, you post such stupid things, unless you are willing to post content, I'm not really into trading insults. Come up with something that makes sense first.

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I eat shawarma at least once a month, so you know my credentials before I begin. The crusades were a response to 400 years of Islamic invasions and oppression.

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The crusades used religion for conquest. Everyone invaded each other back then. Don't pretend it was just Muslims. The crusades united many peoples under 1 religious banner.

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Rational adults do not pretend like a reaction is the same as instigation.

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Are you that ignorant of history? To think Muslims just out of nowhere invaded parts of Europe before the Crusades?

Anyways the point of the thread was whether Islam is a religion of conquest or not. I've made my point, that all 3 of the Abrahamic religions have used their text for mass conquest. Today, very few of each believes in conquest.

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Uh, they kinda did? Are you familiar with the Islamic conquests against the Christian Byzantine state that started in the 630s AD? They invaded Christian Spain in 711 AD. The first Crusade was not until 1095 AD.

TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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whiterock said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Yet your "humanist" secular ideology could not even go a few decades before it went straight into mass murder and bloodshed on a historic level.

100+ million corpses lay at your door step and you dare speak to us of the humanity of your secularism?

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Secular humanism is not what led to the atrocities you assert. Humanism stands in opposition to such ideologies. Religious zeal in fielty to state or church is responsible for most of the world's oppression.

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"Real Secularism has never been tried"

You wont accept the extremists on your side as being from your side.

So then why should peaceful Buddhists accept being lumped in with radical Wahabi Islamists?

Or why should Pentecostal Christians accept being blamed for things a medieval Pope did 1,000 years ago?

In your world everything done in the name of a religion is the fault of all religious people.

But nothing that secularists do (Nazis, Communists, French revolutionaries) is ever the fault of secularism and atheism.

Amazing double standard

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You forget Nazi Germany was statist country overwhelmingly populated with Christians. You confuse secularism with humanism. The U. S. is a secular country. Secular countries are capable of atrocities.

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And you blame Religion in general for atrocities committed by some religious groups...or statist groups claiming a religious mantel.

Humanism (that you are advocating for) is of course a form of secularism.

You are not dealing with the fact that secularism has a lot of blood on its hands. It could not even go a short time in Human history without committing mass atrocities.

You just want to fence off your particular favored form of secularism from any criticism

PS

We have gone over before that the Nazis were a secular movement and atheist at its core. The most religious groups in Germany did not even vote for the Nazis. (see Catholic opposition to Nazism) And the Nazi movement never even won a majority of votes by the German people.

The Nazis embrace of Darwinian evolution and racism was an example of it leaving behind traditional religion and building up a new secular evolutionary racism doctrine.

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My point has been that an overwhelming perctentage (95%) in Germany was Christian, and German's stood by and let it happen, and the vote was 43.7%, which means a majority of that vote was made up of Christians, and it required a coalition that was backed by Christians.

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So then Chinese Buddhists are reasonable for the Communists ruling China?

Orthodox Christians are responsible for the Bolsheviks?

In all 3 places (Germany, China, Russia) a radical minority party overthrew democracy and installed a vicious dictatorship with only one party being legal.

I think it's crossly unfair to lay that blame at the feat of Christians or Buddhists

Especially when these radically secularist/atheist parties in question immediately moved to suppress religion in various ways.

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Then it is equally unfair to lay blame at the feet of atheists. The issue is that history is full of statist regimes that use power to compel population compliance, whether they use religion as a tool or view it as an obstacle.

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Leftists cannot exist without ahistorical spin. Here's the actual score on internal political oppression:

National Socialists in Germany killed 17m.
Bolshevists in Russia killed minimum 3m with some estimates up to 20m.
Maoists in China killed 70m

That's just in the last century. All three regimes repressed religion, treated religious institutions as an explicit threat to power. And there's not an explicitly Christian regime which has anything remotely approaching that record.

Nothing kills on an industrial scale quite like Leftism

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Except National Socialists were far right, and violently opposed to the Soviet communism.

You conveniently ignore that most of the members of the Nazi party were Christians. Why didn't they do anything significantly to oppose their leader?

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1. And yet the Nat. Socialist ideology was in many ways very close to Soviet Communism in its economic views and goals.


2. You refuse to acknowledge that in any super majority Christian country.....of course all parties there will have a majority of members that are Christian (at least on paper)

The Nazi party was still NOT a Christian movement, not a Christian party, and not one that confessing Catholics in Germany were interested in supporting.

[Nazi party had a long-term goal of undermining and ultimately eliminating Christianity in favor of a new Nazi ideology. Nazi leaders saw Christian values as a direct ideological threat to their totalitarian and racial doctrines.]

The Nazi party was probably the least Christian party in Germany other than the KPD (German Communist Party)

The majority of the Communist Party of China in the 1940s was probably Buddhist or Confucian/Chinese folk religious. Does not mean the Chinese Communist Party was a Buddhist or Confucian movement

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That's not true. There were numerous Catholics and others who were members of the Nazi party. There was some resistance among Catholic clergy, and lay people, but there was even more complaisance and support, and even worse Catholic assistence with escape of Nazi war criminals. I've posted about this before extensively in another thread. Fr. Charles Coughlin, a precursor to Rush Limbaught like radio talk shows, was a Catholic pro Nazi, pro Facist, anti-Semitic right here in the US. With such a majority of professing Christians in Germany, if they resisted the Nazi party would not have prevailed. Which begs the quesstion, why didn't Jesus lead the way?

The bottom line, is Christianity doesn't have any historic moral high ground to stand on greater than any other religion or social construct. It's 'moral tenets' pigggy back on and are rooted in ancient Jewish and Canaanite laws, traditions, and myths, and are often compromised for expediency of the times, or its own theological objectives.

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Fr. Charles Coughlin was a progressive who criticized capitalism in the name of "social justice" and advocated nationalizing the banks and was for "living wages."

BearlySpeaking said:

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Porteroso said:

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Wangchung said:

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Porteroso said:

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Wangchung said:

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Porteroso said:

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whiterock said:

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Porteroso said:

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Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are very closely related religions that have all been used for immense good and evil. In a state like Iran, it is used to reinforce a political ideology, much like Christianity was used in Europe to crusade.

Blaming the religion itself is a stupid brain dead thing to do. Just look at all the peaceful Muslims in the world. Look who are terrorists and attempting jihad. It is mostly Iran and its proxies. And virtually all other Muslims hate them.

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Tell us you don't know what you're talking about without saying you don't know what you're talking about…..

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I'm sorry, you post such stupid things, unless you are willing to post content, I'm not really into trading insults. Come up with something that makes sense first.

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I eat shawarma at least once a month, so you know my credentials before I begin. The crusades were a response to 400 years of Islamic invasions and oppression.

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The crusades used religion for conquest. Everyone invaded each other back then. Don't pretend it was just Muslims. The crusades united many peoples under 1 religious banner.

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Rational adults do not pretend like a reaction is the same as instigation.

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Are you that ignorant of history? To think Muslims just out of nowhere invaded parts of Europe before the Crusades?

Anyways the point of the thread was whether Islam is a religion of conquest or not. I've made my point, that all 3 of the Abrahamic religions have used their text for mass conquest. Today, very few of each believes in conquest.

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Uh, they kinda did? Are you familiar with the Islamic conquests against the Christian Byzantine state that started in the 630s AD? They invaded Christian Spain in 711 AD. The first Crusade was not until 1095 AD.

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Beat me to it. They were burning folk alive and chopping off hands long before the Christians fought back.

Here's some reading material. Updated daily https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/